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Author Topic: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”  (Read 101988 times)

Offline bearpaw

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2014, 11:07:42 AM »
I lease a ranch in Utah that has been part of a sage grouse study for about 5 years. The ranch owners invited the University and UDWR to do the study and we quit hunting sage grouse while they study them.

Yep, it obvious ranchers and hunters hate sage grouse and only are concerned about the bottom line.  :rolleyes:

I would have no problem with the ESA if it was used to bring back species which are in danger rather than a tool for enviro groups to stop activities they don't endorse.
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Offline AspenBud

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2014, 11:09:13 AM »
Ya think, Bearpaw?

He has a double standard, cries when he gets called a wolf lover but seems to hate anyone who wants to manage wolves and calls them anti-wolf or wolf haters.  :chuckle:

That's actually pretty funny Bearpaw. I've said on numerous occasions that there should be some kind of management of them. I am however quite critical of all the propaganda and extremist views thrown around here about them. I make no secret of it.

Offline AspenBud

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2014, 11:10:24 AM »
I lease a ranch in Utah that has been part of a sage grouse study for about 5 years. The ranch owners invited the University and UDWR to do the study and we quit hunting sage grouse while they study them.

Yep, it obvious ranchers and hunters hate sage grouse and only are concerned about the bottom line.  :rolleyes:

I would have no problem with the ESA if it was used to bring back species which are in danger rather than a tool for enviro groups to stop activities they don't endorse.

Yup, and I acknowledged that some have started to be helpful. Or did you conveniently miss that part?

Offline bearpaw

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2014, 11:15:31 AM »
Ya think, Bearpaw?

He has a double standard, cries when he gets called a wolf lover but seems to hate anyone who wants to manage wolves and calls them anti-wolf or wolf haters.  :chuckle:

That's actually pretty funny Bearpaw. I've said on numerous occasions that there should be some kind of management of them. I am however quite critical of all the propaganda and extremist views thrown around here about them. I make no secret of it.

You seem to be the extremist, I think most hunters on this forum simply want reasonable management.  :twocents:
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Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2014, 11:15:39 AM »
Pianoman- did you read the article he posted???  Re read it and get back to us about birds, bears, and other species.  They are clearly arguing that since many species have gone extinct in the past that its ok to let it happen nowadays.  Unbelievable.   


Offline JLS

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2014, 11:18:27 AM »
Is the ESA misused?  Certainly.  Does it need re written or abandoned?  Certainly not.

What criteria do we use in determining which species are worthy of protection?  I could care less about newts and salamanders, but does that mean they aren't worthy of protection?  Think of the canary in the coal mine.  Yes, the species may be going extinct for valid reasons and we maybe shouldn't necessarily lose sleep over it.  However, that is probably a decision that should be weighed carefully.

Add grizzly bears and eagles to your list of recovered species.  I would foresee that grizzly bears will be sport hunted for sport in the very near future.  This will be a tremendous opportunity for sportsmen and is a testament to how the ESA can and should work.

Alligators are sport hunted and provide a valuable economic return to those areas.  Note that there is a new site sponsor that specializes in alligator hunting?

Has anyone noticed the lesser prairie chicken is being listed as threatened?  Think this is something to be concerned about?  For some folks it's a big deal.  Is it an isolated instance, or a canary that is indicative of a larger problem?  I think if you look at other trends, it's likely a canary.

I would certainly agree that land use is something that is very important to our country in terms of energy resources and economic assets.  Sometimes those should take precedence over the landscape, but sometimes they shouldn't.  Who decides?  What filters are you looking through?

What legacy do you want to leave your kids?  What do you want them to be able to experience?  I for one would love to accompany a family member or friend on a grizzly bear hunt.  Better yet, I'd like to chase one deep in the Bob Marshall with my bow and arrow.
Matthew 7:13-14

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2014, 11:23:46 AM »
they don't really care about what happens to hunting. They care about their pocket book or political ideology.
:yeah:  Saving endangered species is all fine and good for some folks until it has even the slightest hint of harming their immediate bottom line...tragedy of the commons.

I think ESA has been abused to further agendas in many ways, but it has also done a lot of good in terms of addressing environmental problems.  ESA has a lot of "teeth" that other environmental laws and regs lack...which is good and bad.

Again, your words are rhetoric only. Licensed hunters have never caused the extinction of any animal in the US. Do we want wolves here? No.  Are we going to cause them to become extinct? There's not a chance in hell. It won't happen. You got the wolves you love so dearly and they're here to stay.
Where did I say or even remotely imply licensed hunters in the US caused the extinction of an animal?  Oh thats right, I NEVER DID!

I don't love wolves dearly, I love hunting dearly, and like Aspen I get frustrated when the fringe folks spout conspiracy theories that make hunters look like fools...but you and others like to twist that into trying to make many of us some kind of wolf lovers...which is a joke.  Why is it you guys can never just articulate your point...you always have to call/portray people who don't agree as "wolf lovers"?  I have yet to understand such behavior...its really pathetic.  :twocents:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2014, 11:26:33 AM »
I would have no problem with the ESA if it was used to bring back species which are in danger rather than a tool for enviro groups to stop activities they don't endorse.
Even if it means limiting or regulating land management/resource extraction activities you support?

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline bearpaw

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2014, 11:32:44 AM »
I would have no problem with the ESA if it was used to bring back species which are in danger rather than a tool for enviro groups to stop activities they don't endorse.
Even if it means limiting or regulating land management/resource extraction activities you support?

Yes of course, but too many times the ESA has been used by extremists more interested in stopping the other activities they don't endorse. That is clearly why most people are opposed to the ESA.  :twocents:
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Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2014, 11:40:23 AM »
So does everyone agree that the ESA, despite its faults, has value and should remain

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2014, 11:41:20 AM »
Pianoman- did you read the article he posted???  Re read it and get back to us about birds, bears, and other species.  They are clearly arguing that since many species have gone extinct in the past that its ok to let it happen nowadays.  Unbelievable.

I did read it and I do think that prairie chickens and sage grouse are being used to forward political/environmental agendas. Like the rat in CA that caused the 9th District Court to stop a man from developing his own land without compensation, greenies have decided they don't want shale oil production and fracking, and the way to stop it is through the ESA.

We have many big problems in the US. Can't do much about Obama. Another is that if we don't figure out a way to become energy independent very fast, our economy will be held hostage by those who hold the oil. Another problem is balance in environmental policy. We don't seem to be able to find middle road anywhere, especially when someone uses the ESA to stop projects and programs with which they disagree. Find a frog and stop a building or a new community. It hurts our economy and it's a major intrusion on private property rights, often for no good reason.

I mentioned the dusky Canada goose before. It's a goose that Mother Nature would've killed all by herself, no help from man, due to the earthquake in AK in 1964. It raised the nesting ground by 6 feet, allowing predators to ravage their eggs. Because of the ESA, strict hunting guidelines are now in place throughout SW WA and NW OR, limiting the number of geese taken, penalizing hunters for taking a dusky, and causing hunters to not shoot many times when they should, in fear of dropping a dusky. As a result, the farming industry in SW WA and NW OR suffers great crop damage due to over 2 million wintering geese - and the numbers keep going up. For what? To save a goose which left to nature would've been extinct 30 years ago. There's little middle ground. Our food gets more expensive, the farmers lose money, all because the stupid dusky remains on the edge of extinction not to do with anything man has done.
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2014, 11:43:07 AM »
So does everyone agree that the ESA, despite its faults, has value and should remain

I agree it has value. I think it should be heavily amended and one amendment would take out the ability of non-profit groups and individuals to sue the government using taxpayer money. Many frivolous lawsuits would be avoided in this way.
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Offline Special T

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2014, 11:49:08 AM »
I hate the ESA because it lacks the ability to use logic. Salmon/steelhead are on the ESA in some rivers and have protection. MOST people talk habitat yet ignore the predators that have boomed under leagal protections, Cornmerants, Sealions etc... Neither are in danger of becoming threatend, however could use some thinnning of the population. Gov is slow to action, and the ESA has been making NonProfits $ and allowing the means for controlling others property. Despite this ONE of the bottlenecks in the solution has NOT been addressed despite the fact that is only costs the stroke of a pen.
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Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2014, 11:50:35 AM »
The frog and rat are exaggerated examples, and I am skeptical of them without seeing the case. 

The ESA only requires consideration of habitats and species.  It is not the roadblock that you are making it out to be. 

I agree that the frivolous lawsuits are the problem.  Fix those.... Don't attack the idea of the ESA.

The article wolfbait posted is ridiculous.

Offline Special T

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2014, 11:52:33 AM »
Pman they are more than frivolous. The Sue and settle strategy has been used by bureaucrats to close off opportunity with out due process. It also allows cover for Shyster politicians and Bureaucrats so that they can deny having any involvement because they were subject to a lawsuit, and just following the court... Despite the fact that they have settled and no real oversite or judicial judgment was made.
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2014, 11:57:14 AM »
So does everyone agree that the ESA, despite its faults, has value and should remain

I think congress needs to rewrite or replace the ESA so it cannot be abused for purposes other than protecting truly endangered species.  :twocents:
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM »
The frog and rat are exaggerated examples, and I am skeptical of them without seeing the case. 

The ESA only requires consideration of habitats and species.  It is not the roadblock that you are making it out to be. 

I agree that the frivolous lawsuits are the problem.  Fix those.... Don't attack the idea of the ESA.

The article wolfbait posted is ridiculous.

They're not exaggerated. They're used all the time.
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Offline idahohuntr

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2014, 01:29:12 PM »
Some of you are confusing the ESA with other legislation.  It is the equal access to justice act that makes suing the feds profitable...that bill needs revised so that it meets its intended purpose...large non-profit groups should not be eligible for reimbursement.  Its intent was generally to make sure little old ladies could put up a fair fight against the feds...but like other well intentioned legislation it has been severely abused.   
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Offline Special T

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2014, 01:47:07 PM »
I confuse nothing... the ESA is just one tool out there that is used and abused. It takes a saw, hammer, tape measure, square and many other tools to build a house. The ESA just seems to be the favorite tool by some to force control over others.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 08:10:06 PM by Special T »
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Offline timberfaller

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2014, 01:56:26 PM »
 :tup: AMEN to that Special T

Talked til we were blue in the face about "protected" predators during the listing of the Salmon, fell on deaf ears(biologist state and Feds) DIDN'T meet Their agenda.  But they held their required "public meetings" THAT IS all that counted.

ESA was LAW and all common sense was out the window!!

The "act" came about as a attempt by Congress to "appease" the hippie and anti-war crowd the were destroying college campie's back in the day!!!  Most senators who voted for the act and are still alive "wished" they had not done it.  Water under the bridge NOW. 

Here is some fun,  just take the Spotted Owl.  Was it or is it a "timber" bird!??

Hint, You'll have to find study's(that were done)back in 1910 to find the answer.
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Offline Eli346

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2014, 04:12:55 PM »
 What really bothers me is the waste of money that these frivolous lawsuits brought upon the US government by the so-called 'enviro' groups are causing. Doesn't the government realize that the funding for the lawsuits themselves usually comes from government grants? The US government is paying to have themselves sued and then spending money to defend it! Idiotic at best but the 'enviro' groups keep making a living suing us honest taxpayers.

Offline bobcat

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2014, 04:46:27 PM »
It's not a "scam." That's all I will say. Some of you need your tin foil hats.   :tinfoil:

Offline Northway

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2014, 05:12:46 PM »
The ESA in general was a good idea. I think one of the big reasons that more endangered species haven't benefited is because so much of the funding is steered towards a few species, as opposed to being more widely distributed.

Where things go awry is when some groups challenge obscure, technical aspects of the act to get their way, which was the case when a few groups challenged the wolf delisting in Wyoming. Another concern is that there is just not enough funding or manpower to go around to take care of all the species that might warrant listing. Tough decisions have to be made. 

The threat of ESA listing can also be a good motivator. States are scrambling to come up with a solution for declining sage grouse populations in an effort to stave off the ESA.

The impression that I get from some politicians is that financial interests should always trump the ESA, no matter what. At that point, it would be a waste of time to even look after threatened species because there are not many scenarios where someone isn't affected in some way financially.
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Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2014, 06:32:13 PM »
Again, your words are rhetoric only. Licensed hunters have never caused the extinction of any animal in the US.

Weasle words....... Because before modern management took over hunters didn't buy a license to hunt.  The list of animals hunted to extinction before the advent of hunting licenses include the Passenger Pigeon, and the Stellar Sea Cow. Other animals hunted to extinction in various locals would include the Eastern Elk, the Eastern Woodland Bison, Californian Golden Bear, even the Yakima elk herd. And these are just a few examples from North America. There is more all over the world. Not to mention species hunted to the brink of extinction.

So to imply in any way that hunters haven't, or couldn't,  or wouldn't wipe out animals is dishonest at best. There wouldn't be anything to hunt if our recent ancestors hadn't taken the bull by the horns and made strict laws regarding recovery and then hunting.
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Offline wolfbait

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2014, 07:12:40 PM »
Jamie Rappaport Clark, when she became a political appointee as Director of Fish and Wildlife Services. She was in that job to evaluate the deployment of money from the federal aid program to bring the wolves in. Even though she didn’t receive the money from Congress because it had been turned down, she in turn is the one who set up “ Defenders of Wildlife” as the organization that would investigate predation and pay for damages. And then when she lost her job when President Clinton went out of office, she went to the National Wildlife Federation at a salary of $200,000 – $250,000/yr where she did very little before getting fired. She did score a nice severance with bonus. A couple of months later, she pops up in the Defenders of Wildlife as a top official with them where she is today. So it is all interwoven. Clark would not be where she is now; if the wolf had been delisted years ago and we were controlling them and managing them. Her stake was not in achieving efficiency but rather from how organizations could benefit and make money. - See more at: http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/03/10/panel-roundtable-canadian-gray-wolf-introduction-into-yellowstone/#sthash.FAkDYDWZ.dpuf

Until I posted this the agenda driven pro-wolf crowd seemed to have No Comment, I guess when one of their own is high-lighted they leap to their feet to defend>I guess when you hit the target they have a response.

My question is: Did CNW or WDFW kick the agenda driven pro-wolf people in the arse for a response, or did they leap to their feet all by themselves???
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 07:26:03 PM by wolfbait »

 

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FS / FT: Savage Lady Hunter .243 w/ leupold 3-9 scope by bobcat
[Today at 04:42:23 PM]


wtb, USED CEDAR FENCE BOARDS by Harleysboss
[Today at 04:37:50 PM]


Training/Field Collar Recommendations by Naches Sportsman
[Today at 04:36:08 PM]