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Author Topic: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls  (Read 6822 times)

Offline KFhunter

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2017, 02:03:45 PM »
all your doing is adding copper on top of copper by not cleaning after every shot or two for the first 20 or so shots.   A well cut barrel with a sharp new die will clean up faster, but if you get a rougher barrel made with a die that's cut a few too many barrels before it was changed out.... it'll take longer.


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Offline JDHasty

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2017, 09:01:42 PM »
Sweets & Bore Tech Copper Remover, are the two aggressive copper cleaners I use. Butch's Bore Shine or Shooters Choice if copper is not too built up, which on most of my rifles is the case always.

Now here is a trick, Quick Silver Top Engine Cleaner will get rid of the carbon that is built up between the layers of copper faster than anything I know of and make the process go faster if you have a gun that has never really been cleaned down to steel.

Once the blue is gone, you may have a layer of carbon that Sweets won't do much for.  You need to get that carbon out and then try Sweets again.  Then repeat until you are all the way down to the surface of the bore.   

I use a little JB too. 

My 300 Wby copper fouls w/the fourty year old Nosler Partitions I am still using.  It shoots about .7 inch groups when clean, but only for about five shots.   
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 05:40:37 AM by JDHasty »

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2017, 09:45:00 PM »
The Boretech stuff is nice - no smell.  I use the Boretech eliminator for day to day cleaning and their Copper Remover for stubborn stuff.  5 wet patches,  then 10 back and forth strokes with a wet nylon brush, 5 more wet patches and 5 dry patches.   Takes about 5 mins.  Could use less if waited 20 mins to let wet patches go to work.  Shoot a fowler off first thing before shooting for target. 

Offline wooltie

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2017, 08:44:22 AM »
Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.


Offline JDHasty

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2017, 08:56:12 AM »
Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work. 

Offline wooltie

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2017, 12:53:47 PM »
Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Offline JDHasty

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2017, 01:13:58 PM »
Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean.  Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean.   It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up.  You are using a good bore guide while going through this process.  Right? 

Offline wooltie

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2017, 01:22:29 PM »
Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean.  Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean.   It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up.  You are using a good bore guide while going through this process.  Right?

I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end.  I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore.  I insert at the chamber.

Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle.  There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.  I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.

So, let me get this straight --  the idea is to remove the copper from the lands and prevent copper from building up on the lands? 

Offline JDHasty

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2017, 01:29:38 PM »
Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean.  Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean.   It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up.  You are using a good bore guide while going through this process.  Right?

I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end.  I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore.  I insert at the chamber.

Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle.  There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.

I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.

OK stop right there.

Invest in - and it is an investment:

1) a good one piece cleaning rod - either stainless or a coated rod.
2) a bore guide

I think the Hoppes will be fine for removing the carbon

And yes the idea is to get the copper out and that means out of the grooves as well.  Then keep it clean.  This will be easier, or maybe even easy, if once it is clean you go through a break in procedure like used for a new barrel. 

Offline wooltie

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2017, 01:46:36 PM »
Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean.  Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean.   It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up.  You are using a good bore guide while going through this process.  Right?

I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end.  I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore.  I insert at the chamber.

Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle.  There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.

I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.

OK stop right there.

Invest in - and it is an investment:

1) a good one piece cleaning rod - either stainless or a coated rod.
2) a bore guide

I think the Hoppes will be fine for removing the carbon

And yes the idea is to get the copper out and that means out of the grooves as well.  Then keep it clean.  This will be easier, or maybe even easy, if once it is clean you go through a break in procedure like used for a new barrel.

Thanks.  I'll do just that.  I see there are carbon fiber rods as well.

Offline JDHasty

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2017, 01:48:59 PM »
Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean.  Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean.   It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up.  You are using a good bore guide while going through this process.  Right?

I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end.  I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore.  I insert at the chamber.

Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle.  There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.

I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.

OK stop right there.

Invest in - and it is an investment:

1) a good one piece cleaning rod - either stainless or a coated rod.
2) a bore guide

I think the Hoppes will be fine for removing the carbon

And yes the idea is to get the copper out and that means out of the grooves as well.  Then keep it clean.  This will be easier, or maybe even easy, if once it is clean you go through a break in procedure like used for a new barrel.

Thanks.  I'll do just that.  I see there are carbon fiber rods as well.

I use Dewey coated rods.  I think Bore Tech makes good coated rods too.  I have used Kleen Bore stainless one piece rods and like them too.  Perhaps someone with experience/knowledge of the carbon fiber rods can help out here.  I don't have an opinion on them. 

Offline Bushcraft

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2017, 04:41:44 PM »
Other than the inherent accuracy of the rifle system (or lack thereof) - which can be ascertained by allowing a very competent shooter punch a few groups, I've found that erratic groups are usually a result of two primary factors.

1. Parallax - If you do not adjust this properly you are setting yourself up for endless and unnecessary frustrations, particularly if you don't have perfect form to begin with. So-called parallax free scopes aren't. They're crap.  Always get your parallax perfect as that alone can represent inches of POA sweep over the intended target at 100 yards.

2. Flinch -  It happens to everyone. Period. It's a perfectly natural reaction to having something pound on your shoulder and/or have a loud noise occur. Get some snap caps. Do a lot of PERFECTLY executed trigger presses.  Do not have your trigger set too light as that can create target panic. 2-2.5 lbs on a hunting rifle is plenty low. Be sure and leave plenty of over travel.  The important thing is that it breaks very cleanly.  Have a friend load your rifle with random live and snap-cap rounds.  Set your iPhone and video yourself on slow-mo.
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Offline JDHasty

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2017, 06:09:55 PM »
Other than the inherent accuracy of the rifle system (or lack thereof) - which can be ascertained by allowing a very competent shooter punch a few groups, I've found that erratic groups are usually a result of two primary factors.

1. Parallax - If you do not adjust this properly you are setting yourself up for endless and unnecessary frustrations, particularly if you don't have perfect form to begin with. So-called parallax free scopes aren't. They're crap.  Always get your parallax perfect as that alone can represent inches of POA sweep over the intended target at 100 yards.

2. Flinch -  It happens to everyone. Period. It's a perfectly natural reaction to having something pound on your shoulder and/or have a loud noise occur. Get some snap caps. Do a lot of PERFECTLY executed trigger presses.  Do not have your trigger set too light as that can create target panic. 2-2.5 lbs on a hunting rifle is plenty low. Be sure and leave plenty of over travel.  The important thing is that it breaks very cleanly.  Have a friend load your rifle with random live and snap-cap rounds.  Set your iPhone and video yourself on slow-mo.

Yes, I agree

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2017, 06:47:18 PM »
I've found a stiff trigger is hard to overcome for many shooters regardless of rifle and loads inherent accuracy. 

Offline JDHasty

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2017, 06:56:00 PM »
I've found a stiff trigger is hard to overcome for many shooters regardless of rifle and loads inherent accuracy.

I'll take a good trigger on a mediocre gun above the opposite situation any day.   

Offline wooltie

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2017, 05:41:59 PM »
Here's the muzzle.

Offline Jolten

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2017, 06:21:08 PM »
Quite some copper foiling. Did you do a break in?
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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2017, 06:47:21 PM »
Here's the muzzle.

That could be the issue right there.  It doesn't take long, with the old Nosler Partitions I use in it, in my 300 Wby before accuracy goes from about .5 - .7 inch at 100 yards to no less than three inches.  If the barrel looks like that it just won't shoot well. 

Your rifle may be different, but that is some serious fouling there and it is probably worse in other spots.  I would get it clean then shoot, clean, shoot, clean, shoot, clean for ten to twenty rounds.  It has done wonders for my barrels to do a breakin procedure such as that.   

Offline wooltie

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2017, 07:35:25 PM »
Here's the muzzle.

That could be the issue right there.  It doesn't take long, with the old Nosler Partitions I use in it, in my 300 Wby before accuracy goes from about .5 - .7 inch at 100 yards to no less than three inches.  If the barrel looks like that it just won't shoot well. 

Your rifle may be different, but that is some serious fouling there and it is probably worse in other spots.  I would get it clean then shoot, clean, shoot, clean, shoot, clean for ten to twenty rounds.  It has done wonders for my barrels to do a breakin procedure such as that. The

Thanks. Right now I'm going back and forth between scrubbing with hoppes 9 and a bronze brush, then dry patches, then scrubbing with sweets and a nylon brush, then dry patches. Repeat.

Offline wooltie

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2017, 07:15:58 AM »
Here's the muzzle.

That could be the issue right there.  It doesn't take long, with the old Nosler Partitions I use in it, in my 300 Wby before accuracy goes from about .5 - .7 inch at 100 yards to no less than three inches.  If the barrel looks like that it just won't shoot well. 

Your rifle may be different, but that is some serious fouling there and it is probably worse in other spots.  I would get it clean then shoot, clean, shoot, clean, shoot, clean for ten to twenty rounds.  It has done wonders for my barrels to do a breakin procedure such as that.

I scrubbed it once last night using Sweets and a bronze brush.  This nasty, goopy blue stuff just came out like I had not seen before.  Must be a lot of copper in there.

Interestingly, I have not had this problem with other rifles -- say a .308, different manufacturer -- and I've used the same cleaning methods.

Offline Bill W

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2017, 07:25:34 AM »
If you use sweets and a bronze brush what you are seeing is sweets working on your bronze brush. 

Offline JDHasty

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2017, 08:25:39 AM »
I don't use bronze brushes much any longer.  I switched completely over to nylon a few years ago and am more satisfied than ever. 

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2017, 08:30:22 AM »
Rod makers still use bronze ferrules - even with their carbon fiber rods - stupid.  I cover them with heatshrink so they don't contaminate my patches otherwise its hard to tell when the copper is gone.   Nylon brushes, no bronze anywhere brush ten strokes with a copper remover follow with a couple wet patches repeat until no more blue.


Offline wooltie

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2017, 09:42:58 AM »
Rod makers still use bronze ferrules - even with their carbon fiber rods - stupid.  I cover them with heatshrink so they don't contaminate my patches otherwise its hard to tell when the copper is gone.   Nylon brushes, no bronze anywhere brush ten strokes with a copper remover follow with a couple wet patches repeat until no more blue.

Thanks.  I just did two sessions of hoppes, then Sweets -- one to remove the carbon, the other to remove the copper.  I used a nylon brush to scrub the Sweets, and let the Sweets soak in the barrel for like five minutes, then scrub, then wet patch, then scrub, etc., then dry patch.

I can still see trace amounts of copper on the lands at the muzzle, which look like streaks of copper as opposed to like, flat, wide layered sections of copper.  But I see no blue coloring on the wet and dry patches when using Sweets. 

I suppose I could keep repeat the hoppes, then sweets routine, but I guess that's all I can get out if the wet patches show no signs of bluing.

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Re: bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls
« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2017, 09:47:01 AM »
Rod makers still use bronze ferrules - even with their carbon fiber rods - stupid.  I cover them with heatshrink so they don't contaminate my patches otherwise its hard to tell when the copper is gone.   Nylon brushes, no bronze anywhere brush ten strokes with a copper remover follow with a couple wet patches repeat until no more blue.

Thanks.  I just did two sessions of hoppes, then Sweets -- one to remove the carbon, the other to remove the copper.  I used a nylon brush to scrub the Sweets, and let the Sweets soak in the barrel for like five minutes, then scrub, then wet patch, then scrub, etc., then dry patch.

I can still see trace amounts of copper on the lands at the muzzle, which look like streaks of copper as opposed to like, flat, wide layered sections of copper.  But I see no blue coloring on the wet and dry patches when using Sweets. 

I suppose I could keep repeat the hoppes, then sweets routine, but I guess that's all I can get out if the wet patches show no signs of bluing.

How fresh is that Sweets?  Patches should come out slightly blue if you can see copper in the barrel. 

 

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