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Author Topic: Crossbows during archery season  (Read 2291 times)

Offline Rainier10

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Crossbows during archery season
« on: August 06, 2017, 06:21:41 PM »
So this is from another topic "effective range" where the conversation took a turn to crossbows.

This topic is meant to discuss if current rules for use of crossbows during archery seasons by disabled hunters are good as they stand or should they be modified.

I am not 100% familiar with the rules but I believe that you can't use a scope on a crossbow during the archery season.  I believe you can use a scope on a crossbow during the modern firearm season.

Hopefully this stays archery related.  Even with open sights these crossbows are coming out with some crazy speeds and yardages that they can shoot.

And.......go.

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The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of HuntWa or the site owner.

Offline Rainier10

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 06:22:16 PM »
Pain is temporary, achieving the goal is worth it.

I didn't say it would be easy, I said it would be worth it.

Every father should remember that one day his children will follow his example instead of his advice.


The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of HuntWa or the site owner.

Online JimmyHoffa

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 06:28:30 PM »
Crossbows lose a lot of speed and don't really have as great a range as many like say.  The shorter bolts can't provide the leverage that a long arrow can to keep on track, so the vanes on the crossbow have to depend more on drag than an arrow does--so a more arced trajectory for longer ranges.

Offline 3dsheetmetal

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 07:09:09 PM »
According to Dolores at WDFW if you have a disabilty that permits you to use a crossbow during archery season you can use a scope. That's been in effect for the last 2 years now.
It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need one and not have it.                                                                             Local 66 sheetmetal workers

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2017, 07:13:45 PM »
Crossbows lose a lot of speed and don't really have as great a range as many like say.  The shorter bolts can't provide the leverage that a long arrow can to keep on track, so the vanes on the crossbow have to depend more on drag than an arrow does--so a more arced trajectory for longer ranges.


Not so any longer, the newer ones are putting out a 450 grain arrow at north of 425 fps.  The users are putting out videos showing that they do and it is an amazing leap in the last couple years.  I have an Excalibur Matrix 355 and it has about the same effective as any compound on the market, these new ones are not in the same league at all.

I have no problem with any of them being used as an accommodation by the disabled during Archery Season, but only so long as they are being used as an accommodation for the disability being accommodated for, and that disability is not a vision disability.

Like I said, I hunt with a crossbow during Modern Rifle Seasons when in really tight populated areas, but will just as often grab my compound bow because it is so much more convenient.

   

Offline Pegasus

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2017, 07:21:13 PM »
New this year the WDFW approved the use of an AIRBOW for disabled hunters. Uses full length arrows with speeds of 450 feet per second. I can understand not using regular archery bows if you are disabled. Using the airbow seems like using a rifle so why not use the rifle? Check it out:

http://www.crosman.com/airbow

Offline Jpmiller

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 07:25:04 PM »
I don't like the airbow for archery season. That thing seems exactly like a rifle that shoots arrows.

Offline SquirrelHunter

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 08:36:57 PM »
Crossbows lose a lot of speed and don't really have as great a range as many like say.  The shorter bolts can't provide the leverage that a long arrow can to keep on track, so the vanes on the crossbow have to depend more on drag than an arrow does--so a more arced trajectory for longer ranges.


Not so any longer, the newer ones are putting out a 450 grain arrow at north of 425 fps.  The users are putting out videos showing that they do and it is an amazing leap in the last couple years.  I have an Excalibur Matrix 355 and it has about the same effective as any compound on the market, these new ones are not in the same league at all.

I have no problem with any of them being used as an accommodation by the disabled during Archery Season, but only so long as they are being used as an accommodation for the disability being accommodated for, and that disability is not a vision disability.

Like I said, I hunt with a crossbow during Modern Rifle Seasons when in really tight populated areas, but will just as often grab my compound bow because it is so much more convenient.

jd
I agree with you on your statement about using the crossbow for the disability its being accommodated for, about the only new benefit the new scope rule has is saving the person a couple hundred bucks by not having to buy a special pin sight for thier crossbow. I have mine sighted in out to 70 yards, dont know if i would ever feel comfortable shooting at an animal that far, 50-55 is my max range.

I do t know much about the airgun so I dont really have a valid opinion on it.
"Incoming bullets have the right away"

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 09:01:14 PM »
The only general Season that allows scope sighted weapons is the Modern Firearms Season.  They are not allowed for Muzzle Loader Seasons and they are not allowed for Archery Seasons.

If it were not for online discussions on crossbows being dominated by the topic of several new crossbows being fully as capable as a 30-30 Mod 94 out to 150 yards I would have never brought it up. 

I think that anyone who hunts can attest to the fact that a scope sighted firearm gives you additional hunting time at the two most productive times of the hunting day.  Right when legal hunting time starts and right when it ends. 

If archers are not allowed the advantage of a scope sight during Archery Season then how is it that other archers who get to utilize a crossbow due to hand, arm, back or shoulder issues also get to use a scope when others are denied that luxury under the rules. 

I am for the rules being the same for everybody with exceptions made to accommodate the specific disability of those individuals who have disabilities that makes them unable to participate without said accommodation.   

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2017, 02:03:01 PM »
New this year the WDFW approved the use of an AIRBOW for disabled hunters. Uses full length arrows with speeds of 450 feet per second. I can understand not using regular archery bows if you are disabled. Using the airbow seems like using a rifle so why not use the rifle? Check it out:

http://www.crosman.com/airbow

It isn't a bow, it is an airgun. 

It is an airgun that a scope sight is allowed to be used by individuals who have a qualifying upper body, arm or hand disability on during Archery and Muzzleloader Seasons even though the usage of scope sights are proscribed for both and even though the individual does not have a qualifying vision related disability. 

This device has an effective range of somewhere in the neighborhood of double what practically all archers using a compound bow would feel comfortable with.  This device also has the same effective range of a muzzleloader, however scopes are not allowed on muzzleloaders used during Muzzleloader Seasons. 

Allowing the use of a scope on these devices is effectively allowing a group of participants about ten to fifteen minutes additional hunting time in the morning and evening over what those who are not allowed to use a scope during those special Seasons enjoy. 

That is not accommodation, that is granting of special privileges and that is not a legitimate exercise of power by this Agency.   

 

Offline SureThing

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 08:32:18 PM »
Crossbows have no place in archery season whether they are for handicap or not. At some point I might be unable to draw my bow and I will disappointed to give it up. Archery is a physically and mentally demanding sport and by making small compromises we will eventually lose the traditional sport season we enjoy. One of the reasons we enjoy long hunting seasons and prime times (elk rut & late season deer) is our success rate is much lower than muzzleloader and modern firearm seasons. Crossbows are not even close to regular archery. The only similarity to archery is the projectiles look similar. Half the problem of shooting an animal with archery is loading and drawing your bow without them seeing you. Then you have to hold it steady enough to aim and shoot them. There is none of that with a crossbow. Archery is not the handicap season. If the department wants one of those then it needs to be its own user group and not be lumped in and bring down the archery user group. I don't see any regulations allowing handicap hunters being allowed to inline muzzleloaders or rifles during the muzzleloader season so why are we as archers allowing exceptions to our rules. We need to police ourselves or we will see our seasons eroded like the muzzleloaders and modern firearms.  :twocents:
Rant over... carry on

Offline carlyoungs

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2017, 08:55:10 PM »
Crossbows have no place in archery season whether they are for handicap or not. At some point I might be unable to draw my bow and I will disappointed to give it up. Archery is a physically and mentally demanding sport and by making small compromises we will eventually lose the traditional sport season we enjoy. One of the reasons we enjoy long hunting seasons and prime times (elk rut & late season deer) is our success rate is much lower than muzzleloader and modern firearm seasons. Crossbows are not even close to regular archery. The only similarity to archery is the projectiles look similar. Half the problem of shooting an animal with archery is loading and drawing your bow without them seeing you. Then you have to hold it steady enough to aim and shoot them. There is none of that with a crossbow. Archery is not the handicap season. If the department wants one of those then it needs to be its own user group and not be lumped in and bring down the archery user group. I don't see any regulations allowing handicap hunters being allowed to inline muzzleloaders or rifles during the muzzleloader season so why are we as archers allowing exceptions to our rules. We need to police ourselves or we will see our seasons eroded like the muzzleloaders and modern firearms.  :twocents:
Rant over... carry on

Normally I would agree with this.  15 years ago my dad fell off a ladder and shattered 3 of his vertebrates and had to get his vertebrates rebuilt from his hip bones. The first part of archery is getting close. If my father gets close he should have the chance to shoot a cow or spike. He can not pull a bow back because of his injury so he should be eliminated because he fell off a ladder so long ago? It is still hunting and a challenge for my father.  Long range rifle hunters can shoot an elk at 1000 yards and that is fine  but a disabled old man  who has a broken back and body shoud not shoot an elk at 50 yards with a scope on a crossbow is ludicrous. Think about it if someone in your family was in your position. Not everyone in the crossbow game is out to cheat the system. 

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 03:27:38 PM »
What about them being able to use a 200 yard capable pneumatic Arrow Gun that can be reloaded eight times and fired accurately before anyone can get a second shot off with a muzzle loader? 

Yep, ya' read that right.  This is legal during Muzzleloader Season because it is legal archery tackle.  And did I say 200 yard capable?  Yes I did, and in that I am being rather conservative.  There are YouTube videos of a guy shooting a Matrix 380 and hitting a 12 inch diameter balloon at 300 yards.  The Airbow people state right on their website that the accuracy exceeds that of crossbows.  And as for power enough to kill an elk, Eastman says 45-65 foot lbs is sufficient for elk.  I have run the calculations and the Airbow retains 65 foot lbs out to 420 yards.

So how about a guy with a stamp for a crossbow using this eight full power shots out of a pnumatic arrow gun in less time that any other hunter can get off two, with a weapon that has demonstrable 300 yard capable accuracy, if we accept an accuracy standard of 12 inches being the lethal zone on elk and a surplus of power to get the job done who gets to use that thing during Archery and Muzzleloader Seasons?

This is an incredibly flawed ruling that allows opportunists to take advantage of equipment that has a bare minimum of twice the range of archery and eight times the firepower of legal muzzleloader .         

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 03:40:16 PM »
http://www.badriveroutdoors.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=66&zenid=7hq1uv5vscviskvss428jiifu7

This sight, or models from other suppliers go right on any scope sight mounted crossbow on the market today and make it close, but still exceeding the capability, equivalent of archery tackle used by others during Archery Season.

This will go right on the Weaver scope mount on crossbow or Pneumatic Arrow Gun  in less than a minute, and makes both a legitimate 100 yard weapon. 

What to do about the "spear gun" reloading eight times in under half a minute, during ML Season?  It must not be allowed, period. 

So what if you can only hunt with your scope mounted crossbow during Modern Season?  You can only hunt with a 209 Muzzleloader during Muzzle Loader Season unless you spend a few hundred dollars to modify it or buy a legal weapon.  No one is saying you can not use it, you can use it during Modern Season, they say if you want to participate in a "special Season" you need to alter it or buy a different model.

There is precedent that makes the way this ruling was decided absolutely ludicrous.       
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 08:06:18 PM by JDHasty »

Offline Jpmiller

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2017, 07:29:55 PM »
In the case of a disabled hunter who can still get close but can't physically draw back a bow I don't think you should be able to participate in archery season. If we only had an archery season I would feel different I'm sure but switching to muzzleloaders or rifles fits within your disability than do that instead. It takes more than wanting to hunt the archery season to be allowed to hunt archery in my book.

For context I watched my old man give up archery hunting when I was in middle school. He blew out an elbow and tore up his shoulder withing about eighteen months. It sucked for him I'm sure but he switched to rifle and didn't complain (at least to me). Sometimes life is a bummer.

Offline justyhntr

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 08:48:06 PM »
JDHasty , you are dead on . It's my understanding that the airbow with a good scope has an effective range of 200 yards . If all 1200-1400  (10% of the archery hunters) disable hunters used an airbow , just think of the impact it could have on big game allocation . What's even more ludicrous is that they have already authorized disable hunters to use the airbow during archery season even though it's illegal to use an air rifle in this state to hunt game . Delores Noyes , the disabled coordinator for the WDFW just doesn't understand why we would have a problem with this .  :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: 

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 09:11:28 PM »
JDHasty , you are dead on . It's my understanding that the airbow with a good scope has an effective range of 200 yards . If all 1200-1400  (10% of the archery hunters) disable hunters used an airbow , just think of the impact it could have on big game allocation . What's even more ludicrous is that they have already authorized disable hunters to use the airbow during archery season even though it's illegal to use an air rifle in this state to hunt game . Delores Noyes , the disabled coordinator for the WDFW just doesn't understand why we would have a problem with this .  :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

Many here know that I have a resume that includes decades of accessibility advocacy.  I have been in the newspapers, on television and radio and have been very effective in that roll, but this decision and the "insider trading" leading up to it is beyond irresponsible. 

I have most all of the public documents in hand and will further sort it out as time allows, but what is clear is that the Game Commission was sold a bill of goods. 

Accommodation is one thing, and I support it without reservation.  I even support the fact that an unscoped crossbow gives a bit of an advantage, but it is IMHO within legitimate accommodation.   This spear gun ruling is absolutely ludicrous, it does not appear to me that the "Green Sheet" provided the decision makers made any attempt to analyze the subject from both sides.

It is a stinking mess at this point, and cleaning up Ms Noyes' mess is going to be even messier, but it needs to be done.

If this ruling stands it opens up a court challenge by able-sighted non-disabled physically hunters to demand equal treatment and that means scopes on their muzzle loading rifles and at that point we are looking at pared back seasons.

If one group of able-sighted hunters gets 250 yard capable weaponry by virtue of having access to scope sights, every able-sighted hunter gets opportunity to the same advantage.  It is in Washington's Constitution.  And make no mistake about it, my Excalibur Matrix 355 is an inch at 50 yards capable and with a 6.5-20 off one of my varmint rifles it would be easy peasy to dial in a 250 yard kill shot and put a bolt completely through a bull elk's boiler room, off a rest, at 250 yards.

It is no big deal to get within a couple hundred yards of elk during Early Archery Season, it is another thing altogether to get within 60 yards.  After they have been chased by archers for a month and then muzzle loader hunters, then it isn't quite so easy to get within 250 yards of the same elk.  If they want to use a scope let them use it during the modern rifle season.   

That is just one court case this travesty begs for, and there are a half-dozen more with equal merit that I can think of off the top of my head.           

Offline jnordwell

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2017, 09:27:57 PM »
I wish they would allow youth to use a crossbow in archery seasons. My 11 year old can't effectively pull and shoot a legal bow wt. a cross bow would allow him to hunt archery seasons were you get 2 seasons and some units lax bag limit. Which would mean he would have a good time and continue to hunt which in turn would be more money for the state.. but what do I know.

Offline Machias

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2017, 08:44:18 PM »
I have always been dead set against crossbows in archery season with the exception of disabled hunters.  However after living in Virginia for the past 4+ years where crossbows are perfectly legal, I have changed my view.  I actually bought one and tried it out.  Hated it, big pain in the butt to carry or have in the treestand.  Heavy, LOUD. After a month I sold it.  But what I did realize is it had no effect on me what equipment other folks were using, none what so ever.  I don't choose to use them, but what someone else is using out in the woods has no impact on me.
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History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.

Offline Vandal44

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Re: Crossbows during archery season
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2018, 06:53:11 AM »
I find this topic very interesting as I never really thought about using a crossbows during archery season until a few years ago after my 4th shoulder surgery.

Faster forward December 14,2017 I went in for my 5th shoulder surgery.  I had two surgeries on my right shoulder and three surgeries on the left shoulder.  I was told by my surgeon that I should have my right shoulder replaced but at 49 years old he felt I was to young. 

My life style has totally changed the thing I enjoyed doing I can longer do.  Putting on a coat, getting something off a shelf that above shoulder height is painful and difficult.  Bow hunting is suppose to be one of thing that I am not suppose to do, I can draw the bow but I can't get my elbow up to the anchor point without a great deal of pain. 

I do not look like I have any physical issues. I stand 6',2" and weigh 235 pounds and look like a linebacker.  Maybe because thats what position I played in college.  After four or five knee surgeries and 5 shoulder surgeries I am a shell of what I used to be.

I have purchased a Crossbow this week and have a call into Dolores at WDFW trying to get the disability application.  I have been wrestling about using a crossbow for this season.  I do plan on purchasing some type of fixed pin sight or non magnifying scope because my eyes are fine other than needing reading glasses.

That Airgun is crazy, I saw one at Cabelas and my buddy that was with me said I should get that instead of the Crossbow.  I told him that would be illegal during archery season.  Guess I am wrong, I am not sure if this should be illegal during archery season not.

you can load and fire 3 arrows out of a vertical bow faster than you could load and fire out of a crossbow.  I look at a crossbow like a muzzleloader "it's a one and done" 

To use the crossbow or not, I will be wrestling with this for next several month.  I love the archery season and I do not want to give it up




 

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