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Author Topic: Salmon Farming Discussion  (Read 1030 times)

Offline MADMAX

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Salmon Farming Discussion
« on: August 27, 2017, 06:02:25 AM »
Its sad that an accident has now given fisherman one of the best opportunities to fill the freezer with salmon in the state.
anyone recall the old days of Sept silvers?




(These comments were split off the original "Atlantics" topic to create a discussion topic for those who want to discuss the politics of salmon farming!)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 05:14:54 AM by bearpaw »
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Offline bullfisher

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 08:20:22 AM »
Its sad that an accident has now given fisherman one of the best opportunities to fill the freezer with salmon in the state.
anyone recall the old days of Sept silvers?
:yeah:

Offline singleshot12

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 10:50:42 AM »
Its sad that an accident has now given fisherman one of the best opportunities to fill the freezer with salmon in the state.
anyone recall the old days of Sept silvers?

Sad and pathetic!  But the way things are heading it just may very well be the inevitable future of rec. fishing. It's a real shame!, this State had so much potential for recreational fishing, but the fish politics in this state has really messed things up for most of us.
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Offline Jake Dogfish

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2017, 12:53:40 PM »
Atlantic salmon are given drugs that make them resistant to sea lice. 

Offline Sakko300wsm

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2017, 02:58:58 PM »
Gross!!
Kill them all and hopefully the crab will eat them atleast
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Offline lokidog

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2017, 03:17:25 PM »
Atlantic salmon are given drugs that make them resistant to sea lice.

Which ones?  The ones I'm familiar with have no effects on mammals.

Offline lokidog

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2017, 03:20:40 PM »
Gross!!
Kill them all and hopefully the crab will eat them atleast
:yeah:
These fish are fed growth hormones, as well as numerous growth "enhancers" and antibiotics.  They grow extremely fast.  They will more than likely be present in the water for time to come.  :puke:

Unfortunately, the reality is that even your "wild" salmon are chock full of all kinds of things including antibiotics, prosac, etc. 

Offline Sakko300wsm

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2017, 03:25:16 PM »
Hopefully you guys can catch them all and do whatever you want with them.
Then hopefully this farmed fish crap can come to an end!
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2017, 03:49:34 PM »
Hopefully you guys can catch them all and do whatever you want with them.
Then hopefully this farmed fish crap can come to an end!

Not wanting to take this off topic but part of feeding the world is farming, we eat farmed chicken, beef, and pork too, not to mention most other food most people get. People in other areas like fish too, either we must allow commercials to fish or we must farm fish. probably doing some of both is the best answer. Just sayin...  :dunno:
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Offline lokidog

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2017, 03:55:11 PM »
Hopefully you guys can catch them all and do whatever you want with them.
Then hopefully this farmed fish crap can come to an end!

Not wanting to take this off topic but part of feeding the world is farming, we eat farmed chicken, beef, and pork too, not to mention most other food most people get. People in other areas like fish too, either we must allow commercials to fish or we must farm fish. probably doing some of both is the best answer. Just sayin...  :dunno:

 :tup:  Well put.  We can probably do a better job of regulating (making sure infrastructure is suitably maintained at the very least) the farms, though that will probably make prices go up.

Offline lokidog

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2017, 04:05:32 PM »
Hopefully you guys can catch them all and do whatever you want with them.
Then hopefully this farmed fish crap can come to an end!

Not wanting to take this off topic but part of feeding the world is farming, we eat farmed chicken, beef, and pork too, not to mention most other food most people get. People in other areas like fish too, either we must allow commercials to fish or we must farm fish. probably doing some of both is the best answer. Just sayin...  :dunno:
I don't support deer and elk farming either. They are one in the same.  Franken fish are no different than the Franken deer and elk being produced. I would have the same anger if any invasive spilled into the ecosystem.

They are only invasive if they out compete the native fish and with forty years of Atlantics escaping in varying numbers and an attempt at establishing them way back when with nothing to show for it, invasion is unlikely.  I am not, however, arguing that all of these fish swimming around is a good thing, other than for my freezer.....   :rolleyes:   :chuckle:

Offline Sakko300wsm

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2017, 04:18:23 PM »
Hopefully you guys can catch them all and do whatever you want with them.
Then hopefully this farmed fish crap can come to an end!

Not wanting to take this off topic but part of feeding the world is farming, we eat farmed chicken, beef, and pork too, not to mention most other food most people get. People in other areas like fish too, either we must allow commercials to fish or we must farm fish. probably doing some of both is the best answer. Just sayin...  :dunno:
I don't support deer and elk farming either. They are one in the same.  Franken fish are no different than the Franken deer and elk being produced. I would have the same anger if any invasive spilled into the ecosystem.

They are only invasive if they out compete the native fish and with forty years of Atlantics escaping in varying numbers and an attempt at establishing them way back when with nothing to show for it, invasion is unlikely.  I am not, however, arguing that all of these fish swimming around is a good thing, other than for my freezer.....   :rolleyes:   :chuckle:
You sure sound supportive.  And if you want to eat them as well as support the industry it's your choice.  I personally am against them for way more reasons than your inflammatory accusations(that you deleted).
:yeah: :tup:
Hopefully you guys can catch them all and do whatever you want with them.
Then hopefully this farmed fish crap can come to an end!

Not wanting to take this off topic but part of feeding the world is farming, we eat farmed chicken, beef, and pork too, not to mention most other food most people get. People in other areas like fish too, either we must allow commercials to fish or we must farm fish. probably doing some of both is the best answer. Just sayin...  :dunno:
I don't support deer and elk farming either. They are one in the same.  Franken fish are no different than the Franken deer and elk being produced. I would have the same anger if any invasive spilled into the ecosystem.

They are only invasive if they out compete the native fish and with forty years of Atlantics escaping in varying numbers and an attempt at establishing them way back when with nothing to show for it, invasion is unlikely.  I am not, however, arguing that all of these fish swimming around is a good thing, other than for my freezer.....   :rolleyes:   :chuckle:
You sure sound supportive.  And if you want to eat them as well as support the industry it's your choice.  I personally am against them for way more reasons than your inflammatory accusations(that you deleted).
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Offline lokidog

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2017, 04:38:10 PM »
Hopefully you guys can catch them all and do whatever you want with them.
Then hopefully this farmed fish crap can come to an end!

Not wanting to take this off topic but part of feeding the world is farming, we eat farmed chicken, beef, and pork too, not to mention most other food most people get. People in other areas like fish too, either we must allow commercials to fish or we must farm fish. probably doing some of both is the best answer. Just sayin...  :dunno:
I don't support deer and elk farming either. They are one in the same.  Franken fish are no different than the Franken deer and elk being produced. I would have the same anger if any invasive spilled into the ecosystem.

They are only invasive if they out compete the native fish and with forty years of Atlantics escaping in varying numbers and an attempt at establishing them way back when with nothing to show for it, invasion is unlikely.  I am not, however, arguing that all of these fish swimming around is a good thing, other than for my freezer.....   :rolleyes:   :chuckle:
You sure sound supportive.  And if you want to eat them as well as support the industry it's your choice.  I personally am against them for way more reasons than your inflammatory accusations(that you deleted).
My assumptions about much of the hysteria against these stands, I think Native organizations have much to gain by eliminating their commercial competition.

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Offline Sakko300wsm

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2017, 04:54:12 PM »
Uh pretty sure the natives want nothing to do with those swimming rats!
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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2017, 04:58:47 PM »
yet.  Mostly because they drive down the price of the fish caught in gill nets.

Offline singleshot12

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2017, 05:03:21 PM »
Uh pretty sure the natives want nothing to do with those swimming rats!
No commercial fishermen do. But responsible and sustainable fish farming is the future, taking pressure off our wild salmon stocks.
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Offline lokidog

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2017, 05:08:28 PM »
yet.  Mostly because they drive down the price of the fish caught in gill nets.
Exactly! But let's get this back to the catching of not the should they be here conversation.

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Offline singleshot12

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2017, 05:10:14 PM »
There are a lot of rumors floating around about these salmon farms,and none of the claims have been proven.
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Offline Jake Dogfish

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Offline Sakko300wsm

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2017, 06:24:44 PM »
yet.  Mostly because they drive down the price of the fish caught in gill nets.
The natives do way more for raising and sustaining our silver and king stocks than WDFW does
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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2017, 06:47:34 PM »
yet.  Mostly because they drive down the price of the fish caught in gill nets.
The natives do way more for raising and sustaining our silver and king stocks than WDFW does
A lot more.  Steelhead too.

Online pianoman9701

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2017, 12:43:24 PM »
Uh pretty sure the natives want nothing to do with those swimming rats!
No commercial fishermen do. But responsible and sustainable fish farming is the future, taking pressure off our wild salmon stocks.

Farming killed the wild Atlantic salmon industry in Europe. Everyone says they're responsible until something like this happens. This collapse of the pen will have unforeseen consequences that won't be good for native fish. The only responsible farms I know are concrete, filter the water that returns to the source, and burns the filtered sludge. No direct exposure to any water source and no possibility of escape.
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Offline SpringerFan

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2017, 06:05:08 PM »
:tup: they look like they would eat good to me

If you like your fish fed with food pellets that have food coloring....eat away. May be fun to catch.

Or got to Costco.  Same stuff.
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2017, 05:17:00 AM »
These comments were split off the original "Atlantics" topic to create a discussion topic for those who want to discuss the politics of salmon farming!

Please do not trash other member's topics regarding their fishing success!
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Offline MADMAX

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2017, 05:47:02 AM »
 :yeah:

Thanks for the explanation
I though I was having a senior moment
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Offline PolarBear

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2017, 06:33:17 AM »
Yes, I remember the good old days where we would knock the snot out of the silvers in Totten inlet in September.  Drifting across Baron Point throwing spinners or slow trolling green or blue pirate Wiggle Warts.  It was common to hook 10+ coho up t0 16 pounds.  Those days are long gone.  I did have an oddball year about 4 years ago where we were hooking 5-7  pound coho just South of the Hartstene bridge.  Easily got limits every day for about a week/
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Offline singleshot12

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2017, 10:34:25 AM »
  I did have an oddball year about 4 years ago where we were hooking 5-7  pound coho just South of the Hartstene bridge.  Easily got limits every day for about a week/

Can't have that! I'm sure it's gone for good now.
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Offline jmscon

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2017, 11:15:26 AM »
The thing I don't like about farmed salmon is that they soend their entire life cycle in the pens in one location. 300,000 fish (in this ONE particular pen) pooping in one spot, along with their food coloring pellets. Yes there are currents but it doesn't go very far. Food coloring and antibiotics pellets that make their way out of the pens, daily, with smaller fish cleaning up the scraps doesn't sound good to me. These fish that escaped will also compete with food sources for wild salmon. At roughly 50k escapees a year, even though they don't reproduce in streams (so far*) they are still taking away from other salmon stocks.

Wild and hatchery salmon go out to the open ocean and feed and do their thing and only come Back in to spawn. There are a few resident salmon that stay in the sound year round but for the most part they don't.

The bighorn sheep pneumonia is a great example of negative effects of a farmed animal on a wild animal. Why couldn't a similar thing happen with salmon?

Right now we are seeing the perfect storm of the "blob" and some low and warm stream conditions. Hopefully we will see a good recovery but it might take a while.

We need to mop these ones up and get rid of the farms in Puget Sound! If you're okay eating them go for it, get them outta here!

*I read in an article recently that there have been some found reproducing in a few streams on Vancouver Island.
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Offline SeatoSummit88

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2017, 04:34:08 PM »
I'd just like to take the time and maybe provide a little extra information for people who find this Atlantic Farm Salmon topic, interesting/frustrating/educating. I have been involved with "the fishing industry" for around 12-14 years now.  I studied Fish and Wildlife Management at Montana State University (one of the best biology/widlife programs impo.) After my years at MSU, I fell into the world of Commercial Fishing. I spent around 6 years working in different operations from Mexico, all the way up to Alaska.  After being exposed to a variety of fisheries, I landed a great gig as an assistant manager in a seafood department for one of WA's top grocery chains; after spending a couple years there I received an offer to work in the broker/trading world; and a couple years later, I am currently the West Coast Sales Manager for the nation's largest Shrimp and Crab importer. 

Seafood is a crazy game; there is so much going on; it seems impossible to keep track of.  Currently, the US only uses 10% of "available seafood" within the boundaries of our greater nation. That means that around 90% is imported from around other countries.  We see so much product in grocery stores, fish markets and restaurants that is local or from the US, we forget how big the industry is.  Salmon Farming was originally presented to the state Alaska, as an ideal industry for additional income and the added selling points of it coming from the "pristine icy waters"; hoping to lure more tourists to its land.  After the state dismissed the idea, British Columbia took it upon themselves to expand and try to pollinate this idea.  Currently, BC is one of the largest Salmon Farming producers in the world.  Chile and Norway also have their hands in the game.  For sportsman world wide, the idea of a penned salmon means nothing to them; if anything it's a nuisance and disruptive to the native species.  There are important factors to remember though.  When an aquaculture facility decides to plant their roots and develop a facility for a species to be raised, you are looking at, at least 3 years before the plan is actually implemented. FDA and USDA regulations are so strict that unless a facility can meet the standard for exporting the fish out of the country; they will not processed, due to the fact that money will be lost and product will be wasted.  When we are talking about farmed raised fish, it is important to note that not all plants use food pellets, which contain antibiotics in them; in addition, a lot of plants are looking to the future and becoming aware of not using animal bi products in their feed.  Most operations find the hardest part of raising a fish to be the rearing stage; this time frame occurs after they are fry and before they become marketable adults. When antibiotics are given and fish/shrimp die; it is more likely that the species itself had a degenerative disease, rather than the actual antibiotic or feed causing the issue. Leading to the fact that strong/healthy fish are the ones making it through a full cycle and large enough for market.  The main point I am reaching to is, the regulations which are carried out in both US operations and outer country operations are so strict, that it is improper to point out that these fish are causing native species to not return and be impacted by them.  For years, we have had pens in the sound and in BC waters, with no major kill off on our native fish. Salmon are a species that know a few things:  To eat, swim the easiest path and spawn.  That is what they were born for, and that that is what will keep happening.  It would be nice to say that counter balancing Commercial Fishing and Farm Raising will return levels back to normal; but that is unlikely. As mentioned previously; farmed raised species are found on our plates everyday.  Poultry, Beef, Pork; these are all commonly found animals which are raised for food; if they were not injected with antibiotics, more than likely we would be eating unhealthy species and probably getting sick all the time.  The heavy swinging fist that gets thrown at farm raised seafood is unfortunate; it is marketable and is needed to help not only countries provide more income, but to be sure wild fisheries are not depleted.  When we are specifically talking about Cooke's pen that broke, it's important to note that the company went to the surrounding area and tossed food into the water, finding large groups still together and right near the pen.  They then were able to vacuum them into a tank and bring them back to the facility.  Do I think that companies should be careful on making sure structurally they are sound? Yes!  Do I think that they are bad for the environment and will shut down native species, no!  If you do not like farmed fish, eat wild!  If you need to save money and want to consume the needed protein, buy farmed and save yourself some money.  There is a path for everyone out there!

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Offline Stein

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2017, 04:52:07 PM »
I am not against farmed fish or ranched cattle, but I am against mega feedlots and the type of concentrated fish farming that led to this accident.  Like everything, there are good ways to do things and not so good ways.  Unfortunately, we group guys like Joel Salatin in with Smithfield when we talk about raising food and make it an all or nothing discussion.

Offline Thefishguy77

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2017, 04:57:10 PM »
The best thing we can do for our salmon is not hatcheries or banning farmed fish. It's getting rid of dams. Seriously that's why we have so many hatcheries. They wanted to build a dam and the deal was build a hatchery.  Under perfect conditions it worked ok. Just ok. But with funding cuts the hatcheries aren't running full time or at full capacity when they are running. Now we have fish coming in to spawn and they can't get to their native spawning ground because there is a wall in the way.

I am not a leftist hippy tree hugger either. However the fact remains that when we put all these dams in we had almost zero knowledge of the actual requirement for a healthy fish population. Mistakes have been made and now it's everybody point the finger at a current event and see if that works.

The cowlitz is a prime example. 2 bug dams along highway 12 and then it's ok because they truck the fish up to packwood to their native spawning grounds. Just the fry going back down river kills a very large number of them due to over oxygenation going through the dams.

Hydro power is cool to say and Green at a fish level when done at water falls. But not very good when dams in rivers provide it.


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Offline lokidog

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2017, 10:50:35 PM »
I'd just like to take the time and maybe provide a little extra information for people who find this Atlantic Farm Salmon topic, interesting/frustrating/educating. I have been involved with "the fishing industry" for around 12-14 years now.  I studied Fish and Wildlife Management at Montana State University (one of the best biology/widlife programs impo.) After my years at MSU, I fell into the world of Commercial Fishing. I spent around 6 years working in different operations from Mexico, all the way up to Alaska.  After being exposed to a variety of fisheries, I landed a great gig as an assistant manager in a seafood department for one of WA's top grocery chains; after spending a couple years there I received an offer to work in the broker/trading world; and a couple years later, I am currently the West Coast Sales Manager for the nation's largest Shrimp and Crab importer. 

Seafood is a crazy game; there is so much going on; it seems impossible to keep track of.  Currently, the US only uses 10% of "available seafood" within the boundaries of our greater nation. That means that around 90% is imported from around other countries.  We see so much product in grocery stores, fish markets and restaurants that is local or from the US, we forget how big the industry is.  Salmon Farming was originally presented to the state Alaska, as an ideal industry for additional income and the added selling points of it coming from the "pristine icy waters"; hoping to lure more tourists to its land.  After the state dismissed the idea, British Columbia took it upon themselves to expand and try to pollinate this idea.  Currently, BC is one of the largest Salmon Farming producers in the world.  Chile and Norway also have their hands in the game.  For sportsman world wide, the idea of a penned salmon means nothing to them; if anything it's a nuisance and disruptive to the native species.  There are important factors to remember though.  When an aquaculture facility decides to plant their roots and develop a facility for a species to be raised, you are looking at, at least 3 years before the plan is actually implemented. FDA and USDA regulations are so strict that unless a facility can meet the standard for exporting the fish out of the country; they will not processed, due to the fact that money will be lost and product will be wasted.  When we are talking about farmed raised fish, it is important to note that not all plants use food pellets, which contain antibiotics in them; in addition, a lot of plants are looking to the future and becoming aware of not using animal bi products in their feed.  Most operations find the hardest part of raising a fish to be the rearing stage; this time frame occurs after they are fry and before they become marketable adults. When antibiotics are given and fish/shrimp die; it is more likely that the species itself had a degenerative disease, rather than the actual antibiotic or feed causing the issue. Leading to the fact that strong/healthy fish are the ones making it through a full cycle and large enough for market.  The main point I am reaching to is, the regulations which are carried out in both US operations and outer country operations are so strict, that it is improper to point out that these fish are causing native species to not return and be impacted by them.  For years, we have had pens in the sound and in BC waters, with no major kill off on our native fish. Salmon are a species that know a few things:  To eat, swim the easiest path and spawn.  That is what they were born for, and that that is what will keep happening.  It would be nice to say that counter balancing Commercial Fishing and Farm Raising will return levels back to normal; but that is unlikely. As mentioned previously; farmed raised species are found on our plates everyday.  Poultry, Beef, Pork; these are all commonly found animals which are raised for food; if they were not injected with antibiotics, more than likely we would be eating unhealthy species and probably getting sick all the time.  The heavy swinging fist that gets thrown at farm raised seafood is unfortunate; it is marketable and is needed to help not only countries provide more income, but to be sure wild fisheries are not depleted.  When we are specifically talking about Cooke's pen that broke, it's important to note that the company went to the surrounding area and tossed food into the water, finding large groups still together and right near the pen.  They then were able to vacuum them into a tank and bring them back to the facility.  Do I think that companies should be careful on making sure structurally they are sound? Yes!  Do I think that they are bad for the environment and will shut down native species, no!  If you do not like farmed fish, eat wild!  If you need to save money and want to consume the needed protein, buy farmed and save yourself some money.  There is a path for everyone out there!

Thanks!

Isn't it true that farmed fish are not allowed to be given antibiotics unless there is a specific need unlike other farmed animals like chicken, pigs, and cows.animals?

Offline PolarBear

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2017, 08:23:32 AM »
 :yeah:
And, I believe like livestock there is a withdrawal period between treatment and slaughter to allow the vaccine to safely work its way out of the treated animal/fish.
P&Y bucks & bulls, predators and any game fish that swims!!
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Offline SeatoSummit88

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2017, 08:53:52 AM »
Loki- Typically it depends on the species.  Most fish and shellfish run the chance getting "sick" or carrying a disease when retained within the confines of a pen/net/pond/tank etc etc. Usually during the rearing stages, aquaculture operators can tell what is needed and what is not to keep a healthy stock.  Usually the closer the fish gets to marketable size, it's more so fattened up, and not as much of a focus on enhancing/adding antibiotics.   I can't say I know the process for livestock.  That's why we hunt for meat right?  haha
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Offline Stein

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2017, 09:59:09 AM »
Loki- Typically it depends on the species.  Most fish and shellfish run the chance getting "sick" or carrying a disease when retained within the confines of a pen/net/pond/tank etc etc. Usually during the rearing stages, aquaculture operators can tell what is needed and what is not to keep a healthy stock.  Usually the closer the fish gets to marketable size, it's more so fattened up, and not as much of a focus on enhancing/adding antibiotics.   I can't say I know the process for livestock.  That's why we hunt for meat right?  haha

Yup, one visit to a factory meat operation and the average guy can learn all he needs to know in about 10 minutes.

Offline SeatoSummit88

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2017, 11:59:36 AM »
Singleshot:

I have sent three emails/pms your way, havent heard back yet? I got your initial and hit reply.  have you not been getting them????
If I'm not trading, I should be hunting, If I'm not hunting, I should quit!

Offline bearmanric

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Re: Salmon Farming Discussion
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2017, 03:16:35 PM »
Quinalts got on today on the Quinalt. Rick
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