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Author Topic: Duplicity in the wolf debate  (Read 7288 times)

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #90 on: September 26, 2017, 03:05:18 PM »

Offline JLS

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #91 on: September 26, 2017, 03:09:02 PM »
fascinating - global warming and ticks, whoda thunk?
Ticks a very serious problem for moose in the Northeast.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/01/13/winter-ticks-exact-heavy-toll-new-england-moose/PmpQ3QAHm9C1imAxkzMhDM/story.html

An insidious pest is killing about 70 percent of moose calves across Maine and New Hampshire, and their deadly work is being aided by warming temperatures and shorter winters that allow the parasites to survive longer, scientists believe.

They are winter ticks, which attach themselves to a single moose by the tens of thousands. Adult females can expand to the size of a grape and engorge themselves with up to four milliliters of blood.

“The moose are being literally drained of blood. This is about as disgusting as it gets out there,” said Pete Pekins, chairman of the Natural Resources Department at the University of New Hampshire.

...

 This actually makes perfect sense, since so many of the moose are sick with tick related illness, and wolves only attack and kill the sick/weak. :tup:

Or they die before the wolf ever gets there.
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Offline JLS

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2017, 03:09:56 PM »
fascinating - global warming and ticks, whoda thunk?

Do you disagree with the article?


no, climate change and parasites have been around far longer than mans meddling (putting in wolves) and isn't part of my frustration.  My frustration is declining moose in wolf stricken areas which the article does allude too before it refocuses on global warming.

Maybe that's because the other factors are much more significant in the population declines. 
Matthew 7:13-14

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2017, 03:15:56 PM »
Possibly in areas, or even overall across all the states but in WA the moose decline is due to wolves.  They were rebounding and points were starting to matter. 



Offline Bob33

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2017, 03:21:58 PM »
Here's a relatively recent (2016) update of a study on moose demography in Washington: http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01859/wdfw01859.pdf
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Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #95 on: September 26, 2017, 04:01:55 PM »
I know that but he advised affected out west too


fascinating - global warming and ticks, whoda thunk?
Ticks a very serious problem for moose in the Northeast.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/01/13/winter-ticks-exact-heavy-toll-new-england-moose/PmpQ3QAHm9C1imAxkzMhDM/story.html

An insidious pest is killing about 70 percent of moose calves across Maine and New Hampshire, and their deadly work is being aided by warming temperatures and shorter winters that allow the parasites to survive longer, scientists believe.

They are winter ticks, which attach themselves to a single moose by the tens of thousands. Adult females can expand to the size of a grape and engorge themselves with up to four milliliters of blood.

“The moose are being literally drained of blood. This is about as disgusting as it gets out there,” said Pete Pekins, chairman of the Natural Resources Department at the University of New Hampshire.

...

Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #96 on: September 26, 2017, 04:05:47 PM »
this conversation needs to come back to the original reason why I posted

from CNW director Friedman
"Mitch Friedman wrote in a letter to the Earth First! Journal. Friedman, a former Earth First!er, was among Washington's first tree-sitters during the 1980s' Timber Wars, and now heads Conservation Northwest",

more wisdom from Mr. Friedman:

 "In 1987, tree-spiking claimed its first known casualty: A California mill worker named George Anderson had his jaw shattered when a shard from a spiked tree, splintered by his band saw, ricocheted into his face. In response to the incident, Dave Foreman said: “It’s unfortunate this worker was injured and I wish him the best. But the real destruction and injury is being perpetrated by Louisiana-Pacific and the Forest Service in liquidating old-growth forests.” In 1988, EF member Mitch Friedman stated that “tree-spiking is not terrorism; it is a justifiably extreme and noble deed.”

Offline JLS

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #97 on: September 26, 2017, 04:08:21 PM »
I know that but he advised affected out west too


fascinating - global warming and ticks, whoda thunk?
Ticks a very serious problem for moose in the Northeast.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/01/13/winter-ticks-exact-heavy-toll-new-england-moose/PmpQ3QAHm9C1imAxkzMhDM/story.html

An insidious pest is killing about 70 percent of moose calves across Maine and New Hampshire, and their deadly work is being aided by warming temperatures and shorter winters that allow the parasites to survive longer, scientists believe.

They are winter ticks, which attach themselves to a single moose by the tens of thousands. Adult females can expand to the size of a grape and engorge themselves with up to four milliliters of blood.

“The moose are being literally drained of blood. This is about as disgusting as it gets out there,” said Pete Pekins, chairman of the Natural Resources Department at the University of New Hampshire.

...

Ticks ARE a significant problem in WA


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Matthew 7:13-14

Offline Bushcraft

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2017, 04:23:08 PM »
this conversation needs to come back to the original reason why I posted

from CNW director Friedman
"Mitch Friedman wrote in a letter to the Earth First! Journal. Friedman, a former Earth First!er, was among Washington's first tree-sitters during the 1980s' Timber Wars, and now heads Conservation Northwest",

more wisdom from Mr. Friedman:

 "In 1987, tree-spiking claimed its first known casualty: A California mill worker named George Anderson had his jaw shattered when a shard from a spiked tree, splintered by his band saw, ricocheted into his face. In response to the incident, Dave Foreman said: “It’s unfortunate this worker was injured and I wish him the best. But the real destruction and injury is being perpetrated by Louisiana-Pacific and the Forest Service in liquidating old-growth forests.” In 1988, EF member Mitch Friedman stated that “tree-spiking is not terrorism; it is a justifiably extreme and noble deed.”

...and decades later, those continue to be his true colors behind the slimy "moderate" façade that very few in positions of influence actually believe or trust.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 09:32:48 PM by Bushcraft »
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Offline CGDucksandDeer

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2017, 06:02:58 PM »
I'm not going to defend Mitch's past deeds or statements. Some of them may be indefensible. Though I do think he changed his approach decades ago, instead working to finding common ground with many a former opponent, loggers and ranchers included. Make what you will of that.

Ribka, I'm also not going to respond to your personal attacks, or your obsessive inquisition about my background, motives or positions. I didn't start this thread, you did. I responded civilly, and on this and the Washington fly fishing forum you replied with poorly researched insults and allegations. As I said in my initial response, I've hunted and fished in this state my entire life, and have worked on various natural resource issues for a decade. Working in Seattle and Olympia, I'm far more used to defending myself from anti-hunters than the likes of you. Have some decency if you want a reply.

However at the risk of wading back in here, I'll say this: you may not like Conservation Northwest or the org's work. That's fine. You may not like some of the groups the org has partnered with in the past. Also fine, at times I don't either, and have worked to change who we ally with these days (CNW is now a National Wildlife Federation affiliate, for example, one of America's oldest and largest sportsmen's conservation groups.). You may feel that CNW's past actions, or those of the org's founder, were anti-hunter, anti-logger or otherwise against your worldview. Again, fine. As a passionate hunter and angler myself, I generally disagree, but I can understand why someone might pick from the history and feel that way. Regardless, I'm on this forum to talk hunting issues, not defend my employer's three decades of conservation work from one keyboard warrior.

But what I would urge everyone reading this to consider is the social and political spectrum of decision-making when it comes to wolves, hunting, and other wildlife. Yesterday, two uncompromising groups, both based outside Washington, one a national outfit that leads radical campaigns against hunters and ranchers and is well known for their preference for lawsuits over collaboration, essentially torpedo-d wolf management in Washington, including the Wolf Advisory Group and the lethal removal protocols of the Wolf Plan.

Their broad lawsuit also includes the ridiculous demand that an injunction be issued barring ALL wolf killing in our state, including government culling to resolve persistent livestock depredations.

http://nwsportsmanmag.com/wolf-news/pro-wolf-groups-file-suit-to-try-and-stop-lethal-removals-in-washington/


Ribka, you questioning my legitimacy as a hunter pissed me off. But nowhere near as much as the news of this lawsuit. These groups have undermined wolf management in Washington relentlessly. They've publicly attacked CNW and other groups who've been willing to compromise. Their explosive, no-compromise rhetoric has lead to death threats on my voicemail and those of many of my colleagues. And they would likely be the first candidates to sponsor a citizen's initiative banning all wolf hunting in the states of CA, OR and WA.

Those of us working collaboratively on wolf management in Washington, agree or disagree with us, are doing so in recognition of the fact that wolves are here to stay, and sometimes, wildlife needs to be killed to resolve conflicts or reduce impacts on other vulnerable species. CNW has a strong track record of supporting such compromise. Some of us, myself included, are even willing to state that we hope and expect there will be a well-regulated wolf hunting season in Washington once recovery goals are met, a position I've shared on this forum before.

If you prefer, you can oppose this approach of collaboration and compromise, and tilt at windmills towards a different outcome. Again, that's your right. But I hope anyone intelligent enough to call themselves a sportsman recognizes that we aren't alone in all this decision-making. Say what you want about collaborative conservation groups like CNW, or hunters willing to work with or even for them, there's far worse groups waiting in the wings to tilt the process even farther away from hunters, anglers and rural residents. And while we squabble, they're making big gains.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 06:22:38 PM by CGDucksandDeer »

Offline Special T

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #100 on: September 26, 2017, 09:20:37 PM »
@CGDucksandDeer
Here are some problems you/CNW face. (You may already recognise this).  What has CNW done for sportsmen? WHY SHOULD WE TRUST CNW when it's founder gone through 3  reinventions/names and has no sportsmen Chops? What are we giving to get with CNW?

All we have heard from you is sportsmen have to compromise or else.... some other big bad Org is Gonna blow our house down, but CNW can soften the blow.... We are a bunch of skeptics so give us your best pitch...  So far all we have heard is a reason to go easy on CNW... Why should I give a hoot about Your org?
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

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Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2017, 05:57:41 AM »
Chase -does CNW support trapping and poisoning, the only proven methods endorsed by experienced and educatiated Wildlife managers /bios,to control the exploding wolf populations? It is scientifically proven to be The only  method in the world the past 150 years to control exploding wolf populations


Does CNW endorse shutting and limiting hunting to aid wolf populations to grow? The ended and limited tags in Montana Idaho Wyoming BC Minnesota Wisconsin Michigan because wolves severely ddimished native game populations

Does CNW support all lawful sport hunting that have a long tradition in American culture?


Will CNW pubically partner with hunting outfitters like they have other groups?


Does CNW have close affiliations with any anti hunting groups?

Does CNW think 500 or more wolves in Washington is acceptable ?

Is twenty five per cent growth rates of wolves per year healthy in states with dwindling moose, mountain carribou and elk and mule deer populations?

Will you as a spokesman State that you support prohunting organizations like SCI, NRA, RMEF, ruffed grouse society, ducks unlimited and will CNW partner with them like they have with virulent anti hunting organizations ?


Did your Director , Mitch Friedman ,spike trees that injured poor hard working loggers engaged in a lawful industry that provided materials to build homes for millions of middle class Americans


Will you proudly post a pic of you and the mule deer you just shot- your face visible, on the CNW Facebook page for all your supposedly pro hunting members to see? I see lots of non hunting photos on there and anti hunting rhetoric. If not why?




As CNW spokesperson  simple yes or no answers for the sportsmen on here
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 06:42:42 AM by ribka »

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #102 on: September 27, 2017, 03:36:42 PM »
There is a study that I think Wacoyote posted on here in the past that showed roughly half the moose mortality is from ticks and almost half from wolves. I think it was probably an honest study and I believe it.

But here's the deal, mortality is double in areas with wolves than just ticks, this will bring down the moose population further and also cause recovery of moose populations to take much longer if ever in our lifetimes.

You can't blame all the moose decline on ticks, it's wolves too! And combined they are really hammering the moose!  :twocents:
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