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Author Topic: Duplicity in the wolf debate  (Read 5661 times)

Offline Special T

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2017, 10:01:57 PM »
True statements BP
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Offline huntnphool

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2017, 10:08:41 PM »
Negotiating with environmentalists has only ended in more wolves than originally promised. The wolfers have themselves repeatedly proven time after time that you cannot expect a good faith agreement, you cannot trust them, honesty and good faith is not in their vocabulary. When this state eventually reaches it's outrageous wolf goals I guarantee there will be lawsuits or initiatives to try and prevent wolf management.  :twocents:

 Yeah, yet there are still members on this forum that continue to hope we reach that 15 breeding pair figure. :chuckle:
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Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2017, 08:48:20 AM »
It's interesting and really very intelligent, CNW brags how they help rural folks coexist with wolves, while at the same time many of their members most likely belong to other groups that immediately sue to stop any wolf management even when wolf population goals are exceeded. Don't be duped!

The same violent whakos shut down the logging industry
Look what what they have done the health of our forests the past two decades

These groups are involved in social engineering and our very good at it
They are very active attending public meetings, lobbying our politician going on facebook hunting forums
Printed media with lies. They typically say they support hunters ranchers and behind the scenes have other groups file lawsuits like they did in Minnesota Wisconsin Michigan


They want to fundamentally destroy rural culture and all of its traditions like hunting ranching with uncontrolled flooding of apex predators

Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2017, 08:51:13 AM »
Please all the pro sportsman legislation supported by cnw

They have opposed hunting and sportsmen on a number of occasions in this state


Who is the recent member by chance?
:yeah:

This article is pretty decent.  He's right that collaboration is the best way to get anything accomplished.  If hunters (huge minority) think we can sit on the sidelines on issues like this, we will lose every.single.time.  So, prepare to collaborate folks.

As a side note- I think Mitch is a pretty good dude.  We do not agree on everything, but he lets you know his opinion and is respectful in dialogue.  He's also a fisherman and hunter, which might surprise some folks on here.

Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2017, 08:57:58 AM »
Please all the pro sportsman legislation supported by cnw

They have opposed hunting and sportsmen on a number of occasions in this state

I contacted a rep of cnw and asked if they would support trapping and poison to help control wolves if their numbers  grew too fast like in Idaho MOntana Michigan Wisconsin

They answered no

They also have opposed and help shut down hound hunting for cats in Washington

Does not sound like any interest in working with ranchers and sportsmen to me but please feel free to provide proof. CNW can lie and say they but behind the scenes they have always done the opposite but hey he's a nice guy that spent two decades spiking trees to shut down loggers
Sounds like a great trustworthy guy to me




Who is the recent member by chance?
:yeah:

This article is pretty decent.  He's right that collaboration is the best way to get anything accomplished.  If hunters (huge minority) think we can sit on the sidelines on issues like this, we will lose every.single.time.  So, prepare to collaborate folks.

As a side note- I think Mitch is a pretty good dude.  We do not agree on everything, but he lets you know his opinion and is respectful in dialogue.  He's also a fisherman and hunter, which might surprise some folks on here.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 11:20:08 AM by ribka »

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2017, 09:23:20 AM »
Beware of the TROJAN HORSE!  ;)
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline CGDucksandDeer

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2017, 10:36:05 AM »
I noticed a new member appeared on here pushing wolf agenda

On another outdoor forum he advised that co authored this article with Mitch Friedman director of conservation NW

http://www.hcn.org/articles/opinion-rural-communities-can-coexist-with-wolves-heres-how/

If you do some research you discover that Mitch Friedman was a long time 20 plus years member of Earthfirst

Mr Friedman grew up in Chicago , like another radical community activist we know, and is suddenly an expert in big predators and wildlife management.

Earthfirst is classified as an eco terrorist organization that committed large scale arson , vandalism , threats against employees and their families who worked at companies they disagreed with

They were infamous in spiking trees that injured loggers



So mr friedman reinvented himself and now is pushing wolves into rural communities in an attempt to radically change their lifestyles and conservation has come out in hearings against sport hunting

Hey Ribka, I'm your "duplicate new member". Not sure what you mean by "pushing wolves" on here, as I didn't post that op-ed here, but I'll bite. I've been on this forum about four years. Been an active part of the fly fishing forum and community for much longer than that. Sure, I post here sporadically (gotta work, afterall), adding perspective on hunting, as well as conservation issues, when I feel it adds value. But I'm hardly new. I've hunted Washington all my life, from ducks on the Nisqually and Skok to deer in the Methow and Snake River Breaks, and family elk camp in the South Cascades. I've found this forum to be a valuable source of information over the years, with great advice I consider in my hunting for deer, elk, bear and other species. And as someone who's worked in Olympia and elsewhere on natural resource, wildlife, conservation and energy policy for a decade, I think I've got some useful thoughts to share as well.

Yes, I helped co-author that piece. I previously wrote two similar ones for the Seattle Times. If you feel my views, or those of my employer or our Director (who's past is complex), are problematic for hunters or in the camp of the hardline animal rights or environmental outfits, and not in the interest of using compromise and collaboration to build some consensus that is acceptable in the long-term for hunters, ranchers, farmers, and wildlife advocates, I'd say you have no sense of how complex this issue is, or just how uncompromising other groups on the left side of the spectrum actually are. There is a real threat in WA, OR and CA that a few national hardline groups might someday ban all wolf hunting and active management via citizen's initiative or endless lawsuits. Would you prefer that to CNW's approach?

I may not agree with everything you or others write about wolves, but I know the frustrations, I've heard them over dozens of hunt camp fires. And thanks to my work, I've spent enough time on the range with ranchers in Washington and Montana to feel for their concerns as well. My hope with pieces like that one is we can get to a point where Washington has wolves, (afterall they're native and belong here, just like elk. And they're not going away now.), but they are managed with science to ensure negative impacts to big game populations and rancher's livelihoods are minimal. If you or others want to question my motives, that's fine. But I'm not new here, and the above is all there is to it. I made my positions in regards to wolf hunting and responsible wolf management clear on the fly fishing forum as well. - Chase
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 11:32:45 AM by CGDucksandDeer »

Offline CGDucksandDeer

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2017, 10:46:12 AM »
Please all the pro sportsman legislation supported by cnw

They have opposed hunting and sportsmen on a number of occasions in this state


Ribka, I'll humor you with one example you may find interesting. CNW's support for the wolf cull in British Columbia to conserve struggling mountain caribou: www.conservationnw.org/news/updates/bc-announces-wolf-cull-to-protect-endangered-south-selkirks-mountain-caribou

Hardline green groups lambasted us and we lost members over this, but we we stand strongly on the side of science that predator removal is at times an essential conservation tool. Wolves in southern BC caribou habitat are one of those times.

Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2017, 11:39:47 AM »
Chase I see your the media director for CNW and have a degree in journalism and it your job to spread their propaganda and your writings basically consist of the same platitudes and no facts. Your argument is sportsmen  have to support rabid anti hunting groups or CNW that wants to shut down just some of the hunting-for now

I don't know how a degree in journalism  makes you an expert in apex predators but maybe I just stupid. I had my first wolf experience in 1977 in NW WI sitting in a tree stand bow hunting when a large wolf walked underneath me. I reported the sighting to local DNR guy and he said I was nuts, I went back took a plaster cast of the track and showed it to a bio and was proven right. . I have encountered wolves in NE Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba Alberta Alaska BC in Wyoming, Minnesota, Idaho , Washington, Wyoming and I worked in Russia for years and encountered wolves there  and in Kazakhstan, Kyrgistan.   I went wolf and boar hunting twice in the Altai region of Russia. A good friend of mine, Nestor, was a wildlife Bio in Russia who specialized in the Siberian tiger and as far as I know was one of the most experienced bios in the world. He felt strongly that wolf populations had to be controlled through any means necessary  due to their fast reproductive rates

I see no one on CNW's staff that is an avid hunter. I see no legislation that CNW supports those who hunt. I do see that they supported legislation that bans forms of hunting. That is why I am skeptical. I would like to see Mr. Friedman post photos of some of the game he harvested on CNW's website to show that he supports sportsmen.
 
For those who think Mr. Friedman is a nice guy looking out for sportsmen:

from CNW director Friedman
"Mitch Friedman wrote in a letter to the Earth First! Journal. Friedman, a former Earth First!er, was among Washington's first tree-sitters during the 1980s' Timber Wars, and now heads Conservation Northwest",

more wisdom from Mr. Friedman:

 "In 1987, tree-spiking claimed its first known casualty: A California mill worker named George Anderson had his jaw shattered when a shard from a spiked tree, splintered by his band saw, ricocheted into his face. In response to the incident, Dave Foreman said: “It’s unfortunate this worker was injured and I wish him the best. But the real destruction and injury is being perpetrated by Louisiana-Pacific and the Forest Service in liquidating old-growth forests.” In 1988, EF member Mitch Friedman stated that “tree-spiking is not terrorism; it is a justifiably extreme and noble deed.”



please post some pro sportsmen legislation supported  by CNW
List members on your staff who actively hunt as you repeatedly stated that your group supports every side.

CNW has come out against using dogs to hunt bear and cats. They are opposed to trapping the only proven method know by wildlife bios in Idaho and Montana to maintain control of exploding wolf numbers


What is CNW's target population of wolves in Washington as you dodged the question and what methods are CNW willing to support management of wolves?


Has CNW fought the lawsuits by radical anti hunting groups? Why not if your goal is intelligent wildlife management that brings all groups to the table 

Again I see no hunting guides or sportsmen on CNW's staff. I do see a lot of community actvists



« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 11:46:18 AM by ribka »

Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2017, 11:52:03 AM »
As the media guy for CNW how do you feel about BC shutting down sport hunting for grizzly bears up there? The population as you know as a journalist is very healthy and growing

Did you support any legislation that supports sportsmen up there?

Does CNW supporting the trapping of wolves to help the mountain caribou? How about the moose populations up in BC. I was up there 6 years ago moose hunting and saw 17 cow moose and none had calves. Moose often have twins.  As soon as I shot a moose two wolf packs came that night to the carcass. All of the hunters and guides up there complained about too many wolves


Please all the pro sportsman legislation supported by cnw

They have opposed hunting and sportsmen on a number of occasions in this state


Ribka, I'll humor you with one example you may find interesting. CNW's support for the wolf cull in British Columbia to conserve struggling mountain caribou: www.conservationnw.org/news/updates/bc-announces-wolf-cull-to-protect-endangered-south-selkirks-mountain-caribou

Hardline green groups lambasted us and we lost members over this, but we we stand strongly on the side of science that predator removal is at times an essential conservation tool. Wolves in southern BC caribou habitat are one of those times.

Offline CGDucksandDeer

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2017, 11:52:50 AM »
Chase I see your the media director for CNW and have a degree in journalism and it your job to spread their propaganda

I don't know how a degree in journalism  makes you an expert in apex predators but maybe I just stupid. I had my first wolf experience in 1977 in NW WI sitting in a tree stand bow hunting when a large wolf walked underneath me. I reported the sighting to local DNR guy and he said I was nuts, I went back took a plaster cast of the track and showed it to a bio and was proven right. . I have encountered wolves in NE Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba Alberta Alaska BC in Wyoming, Minnesota, Idaho , Washington, Wyoming and I worked in Russia for years and encountered wolves there  and in Kazakhstan, Kyrgistan.   I went wolf and boar hunting twice in the Altai region of Russia. A good friend of mine, Nestor, was a wildlife Bio in Russia who specialized in the Siberian tiger and as far as I know was one of the most experienced bios in the world. He felt strongly that wolf populations had to be controlled through any means necessary  due to their fast reproductive rates

I see no one on CNW's staff that is an avid hunter. I see no legislation that CNW supports those who hunt. I do see that they supported legislation that bans forms of hunting. That is why I am skeptical. I would like to see Mr. Friedman post photos of some of the game he harvested on CNW's website to show that he supports sportsmen.
 
For those who think Mr. Friedman is a nice guy looking out for sportsmen:

from CNW director Friedman
"Mitch Friedman wrote in a letter to the Earth First! Journal. Friedman, a former Earth First!er, was among Washington's first tree-sitters during the 1980s' Timber Wars, and now heads Conservation Northwest",

more wisdom from Mr. Friedman:

 "In 1987, tree-spiking claimed its first known casualty: A California mill worker named George Anderson had his jaw shattered when a shard from a spiked tree, splintered by his band saw, ricocheted into his face. In response to the incident, Dave Foreman said: “It’s unfortunate this worker was injured and I wish him the best. But the real destruction and injury is being perpetrated by Louisiana-Pacific and the Forest Service in liquidating old-growth forests.” In 1988, EF member Mitch Friedman stated that “tree-spiking is not terrorism; it is a justifiably extreme and noble deed.”



please post some pro sportsmen legislation supported  by CNW
List members on your staff who actively hunt as you repeatedly stated that your group supports every side.

I spent the last week home processing my High Buck muley. Does that count? Not defending Mitch's past deeds, nor am I likely to get through to you if you feel I'm just a propaganda tool, but yes a number (at least 4) of our staffers, including Mitch, hunt each season.  Personally, I'm already looking forward to elk season, and am a little bummed that the downside of finally getting a deer in the September High Hunt means not hitting the Okanogan for my annual general season camp.

If you or others want to attack me or CNW on here, that's your prerogative. There's things the org has done in the past that I certainly don't agree with either. But know that the policy-making landscape when it comes to wolves, other wildlife, and hunting is a hell of a lot wider cross section of society than this forum. Collaboration, and compromise, will always be necessary from all stakeholders. Especially in states like ours where the hardline groups have significant advantages.

Hunters and anglers make up approximately 5 percent of the population. If we refuse to participate in that wider process, we lose. Making policy that benefits hunters, and game, in the real world is a lot more complex than finding agreement on this forum. Say what you will on here, but if we ever cross paths at the trailhead, I'd be happy to chat with any of you about it further.

Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2017, 12:02:28 PM »
I understand the issues very well and would have a beer with you. I still feel that CNW has no interest in sportsmen when it comes to the table negotiate and your responses to my questions just reaffirmed my beliefs

 I  see zero proof from you or past activities of CNW. If fact they have always supported legislation against hunting.

I asked you for proof and you just change the subject as anyone would pushes propaganda and bring up more meaningless platitudes again

I see your IT guy  at CNW is a proud member of this anti hunting organization

http://www.howlingforwolves.org/

I look forward to your and Mr Friedman posting pics of your supposed hunting this October on CNW to show your support for sportsmen. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Offline Special T

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2017, 12:08:04 PM »
Stake holders pay the bills... as the general budget commitment shrinks from the state so should the general public's input...
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Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2017, 12:34:41 PM »
I see on Facebook  that CNW is having a pizza party this month at the sierra club a known anti hunting organization. I see zero support for sportsmen on their facebook page in fact the majority of the comments attack sportsmen. Oh well I guess they are looking out for best interest I guess according to the new poster :chuckle:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/ConservationNW/posts/?ref=page_internal

Sierra Club—Sierra Club and many of its chapters oppose access by roads to vast tracts of public lands and the group also opposes many scientific wildlife management practices. The Sierra Club’s Legal Defense Fund has frequently sued the federal government over those issues, then sought reimbursement for its legal expenses. Many of its chapters have actively opposed hunting.  For example, a New Jersey Sierra Club chapter has been a leader in opposing that state’s bear hunts. The Sierra Club Grand Canyon chapter worked to end all hunting in Arizona when Proposition 109 was being considered. The Sierra Club in California opposed bear hunting with hounds. Yes, actions speak louder than words – the Sierra Club and many of its chapters are anti-hunting

Offline CGDucksandDeer

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2017, 12:47:04 PM »
I see on Facebook  that CNW is having a pizza party this month at the sierra club a known anti hunting organization. I see zero support for sportsmen on their facebook page in fact the majority of the comments attack sportsmen. Oh well I guess they are looking out for best interest I guess according to the new poster :chuckle:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/ConservationNW/posts/?ref=page_internal

Sierra Club—Sierra Club and many of its chapters oppose access by roads to vast tracts of public lands and the group also opposes many scientific wildlife management practices. The Sierra Club’s Legal Defense Fund has frequently sued the federal government over those issues, then sought reimbursement for its legal expenses. Many of its chapters have actively opposed hunting.  For example, a New Jersey Sierra Club chapter has been a leader in opposing that state’s bear hunts. The Sierra Club Grand Canyon chapter worked to end all hunting in Arizona when Proposition 109 was being considered. The Sierra Club in California opposed bear hunting with hounds. Yes, actions speak louder than words – the Sierra Club and many of its chapters are anti-hunting

I'm not aware of any such event. And it's certainly not on our Facebook page. Nor are we in anyway affiliated with the Club. While we may see eye to eye with them on some issues, they hate us on others, and take a very different track. Particularly when it comes to wolves. Keep painting with your broad brush. It may fit your worldview, but it doesn't help hunters or wildlife.

 

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