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Author Topic: Duplicity in the wolf debate  (Read 4015 times)

Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2017, 09:41:30 PM »
He's motivated by his personal politics not his desire to support sportsmen

Still waiting for CNW spokesman or director of or to come back on here answer some basic questions regarding their stance for sport hunting

Coyotehunter do you know if CNW supports ALl legal forms of sport hunting?

I worked with Mitch and CNW to get legislation for hound hunting back in WA.  Mitch did a ton of legwork and had Reps. Blake and Kretz ready to sponsor something. 

CNW was a big reason we lost hound hunting, but they (Mitch at least) recognized that the best biological option was use of hounds and changed his position.  This was in 2011 or 12 maybe, that was the first time I worked with him.  I think you guys need to quit doing your research online and spend some time actually talking to people.

I think you just pointed out the duplicity this thread is about, you got duped  :chuckle:

Offline huntnphool

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2017, 11:37:09 PM »
Quote
Argues Mitch Friedman, director of the Northwest Ecosystem Alliance, "Wolves in the Olympics make perfect political sense because you've got a congressman who wants them in his district. But biologically speaking, why are we starting another batch of cookies while we let the ones we've already got in the oven burn?"

While funding for the Olympic wolf-restoration program has been rolling through the House

 Wait a second, what happened to the "natural migration"?
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Offline Special T

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2017, 06:31:29 AM »
The more you dig into CNW and their roots, it becomes apparent that they are a go between.  They shill for anti hunting groups while making the appearance of representing us... That is how they get on advisory groups   :pee: into the ear of politicians saying the are a sportsmen friendly org.

As much as I dislike these guys they get traction because we as sportsmen have not unified with a strong voice.
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Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2017, 06:42:33 AM »
Here is some of the history of Mitch Friedman... do a quick Google search and you will find the kind of lawsuits he considers sucess.

http://Http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19970714&slug=2549520

While advocates like Beth Church, conservation manager for Wolfhaven, a research and wolf advocacy south of Olympia, applaud Dicks' effort in the Olympics, they are still rankled by the budget cuts in the North Cascades.

Argues Mitch Friedman, director of the Northwest Ecosystem Alliance, "Wolves in the Olympics make perfect political sense because you've got a congressman who wants them in his district. But biologically speaking, why are we starting another batch of cookies while we let the ones we've already got in the oven burn?"

While funding for the Olympic wolf-restoration program has been rolling through the House, the Fish and Wildlife Service last week announced it had completed a grizzly-bear recovery plan for the North Cascades - a study first begun in 1991.




http://www.whatcomwatch.org/php/WW_open.php?id=649

I founded the Greater Ecosystem Alliance (later renamed Northwest Ecosystem Alliance) that year, along with some friends who now have mostly moved on to other projects. On our minds was to champion bold new approaches to saving biodiversity. With big goals envisioned, we wanted to protect not just the big trees, trails and owls, but the entire old growth ecosystem. We wanted to protect not just the alpine gems, but the entire North Cascades ecosystem, capable of sustaining a viable grizzly bear population. We wanted to infuse new ideas of science and conservation to keep the Northwest wild, with large interconnected wild ecosystems from the Washington Coast to the British Columbia Rockies.

I think the first quote is pretty good... He doesn't seem to be encouraging wolves in the OP.  Do you read it some other way??

As for the second part- I agree.  We need to protect old growth forest.  CNW has collaborated for thinning and logging projects to restore forests in NE Washington and have supported a plan to increase yield here by ~200%


Coyotehunter do you know if CNW supports ALl legal forms of sport hunting?

I don't know, but I doubt they do.  I don't think they should have to support ALL types of hunting to be an ally or collaborator.  I don't support hunting with the use of drones, or extreme long range hunting... but I'm hardly an anti hunter.

They're not a hunting group.  That is clear, and that should be ok.  They are the most reasonable non-hunting centric conservation group in the NW and to sit in the corner with our arms crossed and not engage is foolish and is going to lead to less hunting opportunities.  You guys can take a hard line and scream at your computer screens all day, it's not going to make a difference, but if our user group is not represented by reasonable, thoughtful hunters we are going to miss out on opportunities to collaborate and protect our sport.


Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2017, 06:52:12 AM »
So as hunters are only chance is to link up with a thoughtful man who spent 20 years as an ecoterrorist and has lobbied politicians in our state to shut down hunting seasons and whose group collaborated with other anti hunting groups to shut down hunting?

Ok now that makes perfect sense

Thanks

Offline JLS

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2017, 07:35:23 AM »
So as hunters are only chance is to link up with a thoughtful man who spent 20 years as an ecoterrorist and has lobbied politicians in our state to shut down hunting seasons and whose group collaborated with other anti hunting groups to shut down hunting?

Ok now that makes perfect sense

Thanks

If you think have a chance in Hades of EVER having a wolf season without collaborating with groups like CNW, you are sorely mistaken.  So, I guess it depends on what you are hoping to achieve.

If your goal is only to discredit a group in such a way they are never considered a future collaborative partner, then carry on. 
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Offline Special T

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2017, 07:50:51 AM »
I thought our only hope was the required number of Breeding pairs... Not many of us believe they are any kind of allie to actually start hunting wolves... instead they will do everything delay that day.
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Offline JLS

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2017, 08:07:50 AM »
I thought our only hope was the required number of Breeding pairs... Not many of us believe they are any kind of allie to actually start hunting wolves... instead they will do everything delay that day.

If you think it was strictly about numbers and scientific data, then you haven't been paying attention to what just happened north of us in the province of British Columbia.


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Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2017, 08:13:04 AM »


What is cnw's target numbers for wolves? They refuse to answer this question. Why?members of CNW are active in anti hunting organizations that are filing lawsuits to outlaw all hunting including wolves.

Based upon their staff and past lobbying they would never allow any hunting of wolves in WA  and will continue to lobby to shut down hunting of other animals as they already have done and continue to do so.



Why would the hunting community collaborate with an anti hunting organization?

Regarding BC-

The only proven way to control wolves is by trapping and poison as  very experienced wildlife managers in Idaho and Montana realized again
CNW has come out against all trapping and poisoning to control predators
Fact!

Please feel free to educate us

You can buy their lies but CNW is certainly no ally of the sporting community



« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:18:44 AM by ribka »

Offline JLS

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Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2017, 08:26:08 AM »
When I referenced BC, I am referencing the recent trophy ban on grizzly bear hunting. I never once said CNW is an ally in a broader sense. They may be, or they may not depending on your viewpoint. I will just reiterate that they will be a very important ally in developing a wolf hunting season if/when the time comes


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« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:56:15 AM by JLS »
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Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2017, 08:56:10 AM »
When I referenced BC, I am referencing the recent trophy ban on grizzly bear hunting. I never once said CNW is an ally in a broader sense. They may be, or they may not depending on your viewpoint. I will just reiterate that they will be a very important ally and developing a wolf hunt/season if/when the time comes


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I grew up hunting in Wisconsin over 30 years

I stopped going 10 years ago I would hunt a week and not see a deer
Growing up not uncommon to see 20 to 30 deer a day hunting and over a 100 deer on bid alfalfa fields at night. Now you're lucky to see 2 deer on the field

Wisconsin has around 240 wolf packs. That's right 240 wolf packs in state that has much less forested areas than Washington. The packs are growing about 25 per cent a year

The spokesman for CNW stated those are good numbers and did not support hunting wolves
 
In fact Groups like CNW worked with anti hunting group howling wolves to get wolf hunting shut down 2 years ago in Wisconsin . And did the same Minnesota and Michigan by filing lawsuits in federal court!

Imagine how many packs of wolves will be introduced by CNW in states like Washington and Oregon? 500 packs or more. That would decimate the stressed mule deer and moose and destroy our concentrated elk herds

Think we would have any hunting seasons in ten years?

I like to stick to the facts and not possible outcomes but if you think colaborating with an ecoterrorist is sound planning will never change your mind :dunno:

Offline JLS

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Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2017, 09:03:07 AM »
If you're going to stick to the facts, then stick to the facts. The Washington wolf plan calls for 15 breeding pairs. It says nothing about 500 packs, so I have no idea where you're deriving that number from.

I don't have a crystal ball, and I'm not going to try to predict what number of wolves CNW will view as a valid number to have before they would support hunting.  All I am saying is that CNW will certainly be involved in the potential development of a wolf hunt, therefore, they will be someone that can be either be an ally or an opponent. 

Mitch's past history is certainly something to keep aware of. However, you can be aware of it and move forward in the future without remaining rooted in the past.   I guarantee you other groups will sit down with CNW to have talks about potential wolf hunts in Washington. I would much prefer to be at the table and have my voice heard rather than sit on the sidelines because I don't like or agree with their stance on certain things. Your mileage may vary.


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« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 09:10:49 AM by JLS »
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Offline wolfbait

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2017, 09:38:52 AM »
The more you dig into CNW and their roots, it becomes apparent that they are a go between.  They shill for anti hunting groups while making the appearance of representing us... That is how they get on advisory groups   :pee: into the ear of politicians saying the are a sportsmen friendly org.

As much as I dislike these guys they get traction because we as sportsmen have not unified with a strong voice.


Partners would be the correct term, WDF&wolves have several more on the WAG. Look into WDF&Wolves thirty year plan.

Fake environmentalists is another term that describes CNW, fake environemtetal groups push the agendas for the USFWS, WDFW etc., sort of like a silent partner on the inside, while making $$$$$$$$. Remember the wolf delisting tactics in ID, MT,? The USFWS made sure they always left a loophole open so the their fake environmental partners could sue.

I went to one of the wolf meetings, the 800,000.00 waste of money meeting, the lady explained that the "environmentalists'' wanted to set down and have tea, get to know the people who had problems with wolves a bit better so they could work out a solution to the conflicts. She was told by several it wasn't the "fake environmentalists" that had cause the wolf problems in WA, but instead the fake WDFW, who had lied at every turn.

At this point in the game anyone who claims the wolf introduction has anything to do with science is also pushing the wolf agenda. The wolf introduction is about getting cattle off public lands and ending hunting.






Offline wolfbait

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2017, 09:41:33 AM »
Quote
Argues Mitch Friedman, director of the Northwest Ecosystem Alliance, "Wolves in the Olympics make perfect political sense because you've got a congressman who wants them in his district. But biologically speaking, why are we starting another batch of cookies while we let the ones we've already got in the oven burn?"

While funding for the Olympic wolf-restoration program has been rolling through the House

 Wait a second, what happened to the "natural migration"?


A little more history....

The “Naturally Migrating” GI Wolves

http://tomremington.com/2014/06/09/the-naturally-migrating-gi-wolves/

Offline huntnphool

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2017, 09:51:30 AM »
So as hunters are only chance is to link up with a thoughtful man who spent 20 years as an ecoterrorist and has lobbied politicians in our state to shut down hunting seasons and whose group collaborated with other anti hunting groups to shut down hunting?

Ok now that makes perfect sense

Thanks

If you think have a chance in Hades of EVER having a wolf season without collaborating with groups like CNW, you are sorely mistaken.  So, I guess it depends on what you are hoping to achieve.

If your goal is only to discredit a group in such a way they are never considered a future collaborative partner, then carry on.

 We all should hope there are never enough wolves to have a season. :twocents:
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Offline Special T

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2017, 09:59:26 AM »
Must not be many poker players in this discussion.. Those making the case for CNW and their Ilk are either Shills or have been slow played.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_play

This definition fits quite nicely what is going on.
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Offline Bushcraft

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2017, 10:00:39 AM »
Here's a few questions: How much money has WDFW given or funneled through CNW over the years?  From which division(s)?  And for what express purpose?
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Offline JLS

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2017, 10:08:04 AM »
Must not be many poker players in this discussion.. Those making the case for CNW and their Ilk are either Shills or have been slow played.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_play

This definition fits quite nicely what is going on.


Neither a shill or being slow played.  Hunters don't have the numbers to dictate their world.


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Offline ribka

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2017, 10:21:17 AM »
I'd never thought I would see hunters embrace anti hunting groups and enable them to end hunting and ranching
And work closely with a self admitted and proud eco terrorist

I'm leaving WA in. Few months so have no skin the game in the future

I'm posting this let you know who is actively working to shut down hunting and ranching in this state

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2017, 10:25:17 AM »
I'll partner with ranchers and local people before I ever partner with anti-hunting/trapping groups. Now that CNW has cleverly forced wolves upon us certainly they want to be our friend so we'll put up with the wolves and report wolf poachers.

It's pretty easy to say Mitch Friedman supports hound hunting after he helped eliminate it. In fact it's pretty easy to say anything once there is no chance of it happening.  :twocents:

I'll agree with ribka, when CNW starts supporting hunting and posting hunting photos and stories on their website then I'll believe they support hunting. I can offer a few awesome cougar hunting stories, let's see if they print that? For now I firmly beleive CNW views hunting exactly the way they view logging. The only reason they are bending a little is because they know they are viewed as extremists and were beginning to lose clout. They are very clever, I will give them that. Anyone who thinks otherwise is most likely sadly mistaken.

We are better off to side with ranchers, farmers, loggers, and rural legislators than to associate with CNW and oyther extrmist groups. If hunters collaborate with extremist they are going to use that to say they work with hunters to try and gain more influence.

They at best are clever operators, they really have no desire to expand hunting/trapping or the rural life the way we know it. They have their own world view and given the opportunity will turn on the rest of us and eliminate other forms of recreation and rural occupations when the opportunity presents itself.

We should oppose CNW or they will take advantage saying they work with sports folks and use that to eliminate more hunting/trapping/rural lifestyles. :twocents:


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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2017, 10:38:56 AM »
It's so easy to see how CNW is cleverly posting little tidbits here and there about how they are helping rural communities and ranchers saying how this helps people and wolves. No doubt they are laughing behind the scenes and patting themselves on the back cheering how they have so cleverly manipulated wolf introduction.

I can tell you this, rural communities lost millions of dollars from hunters who quit coming and by livestock being eaten when wolves over populated in Idaho and Montana, now it's happening in WA. Mark my words, you will see fewer moose permits in WA just about every year until wolf numbers are greatly decreased, which will probably never happen. At least 50% to 60% of the moose are already gone, there are wolf tracks in the trails where there used to be moose tracks.

I used to tell my moose hunters we will see 5 to 10 moose per day, now I don't even want to guide moose hunters in some units because I know it might be tough to find 1 moose on a 5 day hunt!
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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2017, 10:43:12 AM »
Hunters need to oppose CNW every chance possible. We should always speak out loudly detailing how CNW does not have the best interests of hunters and trappers at heart. Explain to people that CNW helped eliminate hound hunting and trapping and will eliminate other forms of hunting if given the chance! DO NOT PARTNER with them, that only makes them stronger in the eyes of agencies like the WDFW and USFS.
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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2017, 10:44:14 AM »

Hunters don't have the numbers to dictate their world.


Oh, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that statement. Even though our population represents a numerical minority in the grand scheme of things, there are far more sportsmen and women in this state than there are left-wing enviro-whackos.  We've got plenty of "number$" in the war chest. And, more importantly, we've got incredibly influential political allies that span the political spectrum that are willing to go to bat for us...even though they might not feel inclined to come right out and say it in mixed company.  ;)   
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 10:53:07 AM by Bushcraft »
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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2017, 10:49:00 AM »
Remember this, the people of Idaho did not prevail on hunting wolves by partnering with CNW or any other wolf groups!


Hunters don't have the numbers to dictate their world.


Oh, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that statement. Even though our population represents a numerical minority in the grand scheme of things, there are far more sportsmen and women in this state than there are left-wing enviro-whackos.  We've got plenty of "number$" in the war chest. And, more importantly, we've got incredibly influential political allies that span the political spectrum that are willing to go bat for us...even though they might not feel inclined to come right out and say it in mixed company.  ;)   


 :yeah: STAND STRONG, we can't win by giving in to CNW or any other wolf groups!
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Duplicity in the wolf debate
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2017, 10:52:28 AM »

Hunters don't have the numbers to dictate their world.


Oh, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that statement. Even though our population represents a numerical minority in the grand scheme of things, there are far more sportsmen and women in this state than there are left-wing enviro-whackos.  We've got plenty of "number$" in the war chest. And, more importantly, we've got incredibly influential political allies that span the political spectrum that are willing to go bat for us...even though they might not feel inclined to come right out and say it in mixed company.  ;)   

You do live in WA, right? A wolf plan so outrageous in its scope as to prevent eventual management. Other predator management which is not designed around science. A governor who stacks the wildlife Commission with animal rights groups and also panders to those groups for campaign donations. And a population of hunters less than 4% of our state's population.  :dunno:
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

 

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