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Author Topic: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle  (Read 1636 times)

Online pianoman9701

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I guess delisting in accordance with federal guidelines would take care of this. Too bad the WDFW is in bed with these guys.

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2017/sep/25/lawsuit-would-prevent-washington-killing-more-wolves-protect-cattle/
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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 07:13:44 AM »
Dear Director Unsworth,

One way around this lawsuit would be to delist wolves as endangered in the Eastern 1/3 of the state, in accordance with Federal delisting of the Northern Rockies area. The lawsuit alleges that your department is killing endangered wolves. Delisting them would make the lawsuit obsolete. If you wait for the wolf plan guidelines to be met first, it could easily be 20 more years or more before delisting is achieved. Itís painfully obvious that several of the guidelines for delisting are unachievable in the foreseeable future. Meanwhile, the communities of the NE corner are needlessly suffering the effects of a faulty plan.

Please also forward my comments to the Wildlife Commission, as their email address isnít currently listed on the contact page.

I would appreciate the courtesy of a reply. Thank you,
Pianoman
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2017, 07:48:02 AM »
Dear Director Unsworth,

One way around this lawsuit would be to delist wolves as endangered in the Eastern 1/3 of the state, in accordance with Federal delisting of the Northern Rockies area. The lawsuit alleges that your department is killing endangered wolves. Delisting them would make the lawsuit obsolete. If you wait for the wolf plan guidelines to be met first, it could easily be 20 more years or more before delisting is achieved. Itís painfully obvious that several of the guidelines for delisting are unachievable in the foreseeable future. Meanwhile, the communities of the NE corner are needlessly suffering the effects of a faulty plan.

Please also forward my comments to the Wildlife Commission, as their email address isnít currently listed on the contact page.

I would appreciate the courtesy of a reply. Thank you,
Pianoman

Nice try P-man!

The people of Idaho had a huge party when they finally got rid of Unsworth, seems he is the perfect fit for WDF&Wolves..


"However, in todayís suit the Center for Biological Diversity and Cascadia Wildlands claim the agencyís killing of wolves from the Smackout and Sherman packs failed to undergo required environmental analysis. The protocol was created by a Wolf Advisory Group that includes about 18 people with a range of interests, from wolf advocates to ranchers. The protocol was revised this year."

And who is on the WAG?

« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 07:55:31 AM by wolfbait »

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2017, 07:59:24 AM »
It's such a scam. I'd hate to be a cattleman. I'm arguing with a friend on the Stevens Co. Cattleman's FB page who supports the wolves and knows absolutely zero facts regarding their impact, non-lethal measures, diseases. These people are absolutely clueless and don't care one bit about cattlemen and their families and communities, and their livelihoods.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2017, 08:20:53 AM »
It's such a scam. I'd hate to be a cattleman. I'm arguing with a friend on the Stevens Co. Cattleman's FB page who supports the wolves and knows absolutely zero facts regarding their impact, non-lethal measures, diseases. These people are absolutely clueless and don't care one bit about cattlemen and their families and communities, and their livelihoods.

Bingo, we have a winner...


Offline Special T

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2017, 09:05:30 AM »
Pman we are too far down the slippery slope, the bell cannot be unrung.

Too many consessions have already been made, which out ourselves in a corner... anti hunter/wolf promoters had a strategy from day one and we were not organized to repell their advances.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 09:20:36 AM »
I and many others from the beginning have been predicting that the wolf lovers on the WAG and in the Commission would use the information they gained there to get a leg up on lawsuits to stop prospective cullings. This was either a huge lack of foresight on the part of Anderson and Unsworth or an outright undermining of concerned parties and other wildlife. It's revolting, everything about it.
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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 09:29:52 AM »
Delisting is a solution, but it is not a given that EIS were required.  A judge will have to determine whether the wolf plan in its entirety sufficiently took into account lethal removal and addressed it.

It would be a major to have missed an EIS requirement, and we will quickly find out the validity of the lawsuit.  If an injunction is granted, then one could presume there is validity to the lawsuit.

If wolf lovers on the WAG did this intentionally and the others were too dumb to see it happening they deserve what they got. 


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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 09:31:42 AM »
I and many others from the beginning have been predicting that the wolf lovers on the WAG and in the Commission would use the information they gained there to get a leg up on lawsuits to stop prospective cullings. This was either a huge lack of foresight on the part of Anderson and Unsworth or an outright undermining of concerned parties and other wildlife. It's revolting, everything about it.


The USFWS, WDFW and the fake environmentalist groups are one and the same P-man, it has always been a no win situation, you should be able to see that by now just from the ID, MT and Wyoming history.


Read the info. Below and then compare it with what has happened in WA.



What They Didnít Tell You About Wolf Recovery

"Oversight Committee Bias

But even if FWS and IDFG were willing to lie about the declining prey base in central Idaho, the Wolf Oversight Committee was formed by the Legislature in 1993 to protect Idahoís interests in the formation of a wolf plan. Why did that Committee fail to do its job?

One answer is that four of the seven voting members on the Oversight Committee supported the FWS/IDFG plan to import Canadian wolves and protect and manage them as a new big game species. Jack Lavin and Don Clower were hand-picked by IDFG to support its"

http://www.idahoforwildlife.com/Website%20articles/George%20Dovel/The_Outdoorsman%2026%20January%202008%20full%20report.pdf


In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only.  s:  http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml


In Washington, Feds Opt For Wolf Introduction Over Recovery

http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/06/08/in-washington-feds-opt-for-wolf-introduction-over-recovery/


« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 09:40:21 AM by wolfbait »

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2017, 09:52:09 AM »
Delisting is a solution, but it is not a given that EIS were required.  A judge will have to determine whether the wolf plan in its entirety sufficiently took into account lethal removal and addressed it.

It would be a major to have missed an EIS requirement, and we will quickly find out the validity of the lawsuit.  If an injunction is granted, then one could presume there is validity to the lawsuit.

If wolf lovers on the WAG did this intentionally and the others were too dumb to see it happening they deserve what they got. 


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It could be argued this is exactly what they wanted, if they did this intentionally. I'm quite certain that the cattlemen, communities, wildlife, and hunters of WA state don't deserve what they got - screwed.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2017, 10:01:43 AM »
I agree with you in that sportsmen got screwed with the wolf plan and delisting benchmark, but that has nothing to do with the WAG. 

Everyone at the table for the WAG has a responsibility to understand how policy and implementation affects their user group and constituency.  If they donít, they shouldnít be a representative.


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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2017, 10:27:22 AM »
I agree with you in that sportsmen got screwed with the wolf plan and delisting benchmark, but that has nothing to do with the WAG. 

Everyone at the table for the WAG has a responsibility to understand how policy and implementation affects their user group and constituency. If they donít, they shouldnít be a representative.


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I can't comment on that but my assertion is that it's quite possible those people were picked to give their animal rights organizations a leg up on inside information. I believe it's quite possible that cattlemen, wildlife, and sportsmen have been undermined on purpose by agendas coming out of the top office in Olympia. The governor receives big bucks for his campaigns from the people who oppose the wolf cullings.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2017, 10:38:39 AM »
I agree with you in that sportsmen got screwed with the wolf plan and delisting benchmark, but that has nothing to do with the WAG. 

Everyone at the table for the WAG has a responsibility to understand how policy and implementation affects their user group and constituency. If they donít, they shouldnít be a representative.


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I can't comment on that but my assertion is that it's quite possible those people were picked to give their animal rights organizations a leg up on inside information. I believe it's quite possible that cattlemen, wildlife, and sportsmen have been undermined on purpose by agendas coming out of the top office in Olympia. The governor receives big bucks for his campaigns from the people who oppose the wolf cullings.

They would have no more of a leg up than the cattleman groups or anyone else at the table.  If a public official directly misrepresented false information to one group to give advantage to the other, those are directly fireable offenses and would give legal standing for lawsuits by the aggrieved parties.

Nothing is impossible, but that's a pretty big allegation to make.

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2017, 10:43:59 AM »
Delisting is a solution, but it is not a given that EIS were required.  A judge will have to determine whether the wolf plan in its entirety sufficiently took into account lethal removal and addressed it.

It would be a major to have missed an EIS requirement, and we will quickly find out the validity of the lawsuit.  If an injunction is granted, then one could presume there is validity to the lawsuit.

If wolf lovers on the WAG did this intentionally and the others were too dumb to see it happening they deserve what they got. 


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It could be argued this is exactly what they wanted, if they did this intentionally. I'm quite certain that the cattlemen, communities, wildlife, and hunters of WA state don't deserve what they got - screwed.

I should clarify my statement, as I realize it is harsh.  IF WDFW LIED to the cattlemen on the WAG, and they were misled because of this, then shame on WDFW and they deserve any fallout from such actions.  IF they did not, and portions of the WAG did not understand how wolf policy implementation would affect their user group, and did not understand their policy recommendations would not be legally defensible, then they deserve what they get.

When I sign off on things, it's my responsibility to ask questions.  If I don't ask the questions and/or don't understand the answers, that's on me.
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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2017, 10:46:07 AM »
It isn't the WAG's job to make sure WDFW follows state law regarding conducting an EIS, is it? 

I know from experience that WDFW is willing to ignore, bend, or break applicable environmental laws if it furthers their goals.  It wouldn't surprise me if they screwed this up, although you would think they would have dotted their I's and crossed their T's knowing litigation was likely.

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2017, 10:48:39 AM »
I'm just so damned angry that it seemed obvious to everyone that putting these people on the WAG wouldn't be wise. And what a coincidence, it turned out to be unwise. Now, every step the WDFW takes to control wolves is going to be challenged. They're going to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of $ on litigation now every time they want to justify killing wolves.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 11:03:12 AM by pianoman9701 »
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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2017, 10:56:50 AM »
Not if they did it right.  If it truly is a challenge to SEPA and the EIS, the issue will be put to bed if they prevail.  Similarly, if they can show their actions weren't arbitrary and capricious (basically taken without any good reason), the issue is put to bed. 

The plaintiffs have a high bar to prove their case.  WDFW will get deference to their expertise from the court and should win if they did their job. 

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2017, 11:00:04 AM »
Not if they did it right.  If it truly is a challenge to SEPA and the EIS, the issue will be put to bed if they prevail.  Similarly, if they can show their actions weren't arbitrary and capricious (basically taken without any good reason), the issue is put to bed. 

The plaintiffs have a high bar to prove their case.  WDFW will get deference to their expertise from the court and should win if they did their job.

Yep


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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2017, 11:04:12 AM »
It isn't the WAG's job to make sure WDFW follows state law regarding conducting an EIS, is it? 

Yes and no.  The WAG is to help direct WDFW policy within the parameters of the wolf plan.  However, on an issue as contentious and litigious as this, everyone should always be asking if the actions are legally defensible.

Hence my assertion that every member of the WAG has the responsibility to understand how the policy affects their user group, to include being legally defensible so as to serve their user group.



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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2017, 11:09:02 AM »
I'm just so damned angry that it seemed obvious to everyone that putting these people on the WAG wouldn't be wise. And what a coincidence, it turned out to be unwise. Now, every step the WDFW takes to control wolves is going to be challenged. They're going to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of $ on litigation now every time they want to justify killing wolves.


I would argue just the opposite.  Excluding them would have guaranteed many more lawsuits, to include the exclusion itself.

Whether or not you like WDFWs wolf plan, it is a very defensible document.  My prediction is this lawsuit will go by the wayside in short order.


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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2017, 11:13:56 AM »
Your right I don't like it

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2017, 11:27:42 AM »
Litigation is all part of the deal. If they did this correctly, I wouldn't be surprised if wdfw welcomed the chance get their plan vindicated through the court process. It will take some wind out of the sails of those opposed to lethal removal.  Though it may seem weird, this is somewhat of an opportunity.

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2017, 11:44:11 AM »
Litigation is all part of the deal. If they did this correctly, I wouldn't be surprised if wdfw welcomed the chance get their plan vindicated through the court process. It will take some wind out of the sails of those opposed to lethal removal.  Though it may seem weird, this is somewhat of an opportunity.

Agreed again


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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2017, 06:41:46 PM »
Litigation is all part of the deal. If they did this correctly, I wouldn't be surprised if wdfw welcomed the chance get their plan vindicated through the court process. It will take some wind out of the sails of those opposed to lethal removal.  Though it may seem weird, this is somewhat of an opportunity.


My guess is WDFW and the fake environmental groups have it already worked out between them, remember WDFW have not been the honest party with the wolf introduction into WA. And in the future any other lawsuits will also favor the wolves, look at the USFWS back history with the introduction into the Yellowstone and Idaho, so far WDFW have played the same game, why would they change now?

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2017, 04:38:15 PM »
I'm just so damned angry that it seemed obvious to everyone that putting these people on the WAG wouldn't be wise. .

Neither of the out-of-state groups behind this lawsuit are on the WAG. Due to their bomb-throwing at the compromise-based process that is the WAG and recent Washington wolf policy-making, there's very little communication between those two hardline groups and the conservation and animals rights groups on the WAG at this point. We've repeatedly and publicly disagreed with their refusal to compromise on wolf management in our state, we did not know this was coming, and we absolutely do not support it.

My official response is in this article: http://nwsportsmanmag.com/wolf-news/still-another-study-pokes-holes-wsu-professors-wolf-livestock-attack-findings/ (scroll to the bottom). Yes, it's more cagey than what I wrote above. But that doesn't mean some of us Washingtonians working on this issue in good faith alongside ranchers and other stakeholders aren't personally mad as hell about this attack on our collaborative process.

AND before some of you start, conspiracy theory responses or inquisition will get no response from me. As I've said before, you may not like wolves, you may hate WDFW and the WAG, you may not like any conservation groups, and you may feel all of the above are corrupt together. You're welcome to those opinions, but that doesn't make them fact.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 04:49:26 PM by CGDucksandDeer »

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2017, 05:21:01 PM »
The whole wolf process has been a scam from the beginning when Pittman Robertson funds were stolen to illegally transplant a non-native wolf sub-species in the rockies. Then Washington stacked the wolf working group with wolf advocates, so that WA has the most intensive wolf recovery plan and any WA resident should be smart enough to know that as soon as any hunting is proposed an initiative will be on the ballot in WA to outlaw wolf hunting FOREVER!

I'm guessing a good percentage of the CNW members are also members of these other hardline wolf groups! The leader himself is an earthfirster! When wolf hunting is allowed to control wolf numbers I will be the first to say I was wrong, but until then it sure appears that hunters and ranchers have been railroaded again in WA! :twocents:
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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2017, 08:58:11 AM »
Looks like CNW helped anti hunting groups stick a knife in ranchers' and sportmens" back again.


I support hunter  friendly conservation groups like rmef, DU, ruffed grouse society, American Rivers, mule deer foundation, TU for over 20 years and donated a lot of time and money. Guessing a good deal more than you.

I don't support anti hunting groups like HSUS , howling for wolves, CNW that are working to end sport hunting. Nice try


Fact- CNW has routinely worked with and collaborated with anti hunting groups behind the scenes as indicated on their web site and FB page.

I see nothing on CNW's website or facebook addressing this- Gosh not surprised. But I do see they are now trying to shut down night hunting for bobcats though just like they helped shut down trapping and hound hunting in Washington. Small steps to eventually end all or severely limit sport hunting on public land in the west. No surprise though when your organization, CNW, is led by an amoral sociopath.



I'm just so damned angry that it seemed obvious to everyone that putting these people on the WAG wouldn't be wise. .

Neither of the out-of-state groups behind this lawsuit are on the WAG. Due to their bomb-throwing at the compromise-based process that is the WAG and recent Washington wolf policy-making, there's very little communication between those two hardline groups and the conservation and animals rights groups on the WAG at this point. We've repeatedly and publicly disagreed with their refusal to compromise on wolf management in our state, we did not know this was coming, and we absolutely do not support it.

My official response is in this article: http://nwsportsmanmag.com/wolf-news/still-another-study-pokes-holes-wsu-professors-wolf-livestock-attack-findings/ (scroll to the bottom). Yes, it's more cagey than what I wrote above. But that doesn't mean some of us Washingtonians working on this issue in good faith alongside ranchers and other stakeholders aren't personally mad as hell about this attack on our collaborative process.

AND before some of you start, conspiracy theory responses or inquisition will get no response from me. As I've said before, you may not like wolves, you may hate WDFW and the WAG, you may not like any conservation groups, and you may feel all of the above are corrupt together. You're welcome to those opinions, but that doesn't make them fact.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 09:35:24 AM by ribka »

Online pianoman9701

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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2017, 09:16:04 AM »
I'm just so damned angry that it seemed obvious to everyone that putting these people on the WAG wouldn't be wise. .

Neither of the out-of-state groups behind this lawsuit are on the WAG. Due to their bomb-throwing at the compromise-based process that is the WAG and recent Washington wolf policy-making, there's very little communication between those two hardline groups and the conservation and animals rights groups on the WAG at this point. We've repeatedly and publicly disagreed with their refusal to compromise on wolf management in our state, we did not know this was coming, and we absolutely do not support it.

My official response is in this article: http://nwsportsmanmag.com/wolf-news/still-another-study-pokes-holes-wsu-professors-wolf-livestock-attack-findings/ (scroll to the bottom). Yes, it's more cagey than what I wrote above. But that doesn't mean some of us Washingtonians working on this issue in good faith alongside ranchers and other stakeholders aren't personally mad as hell about this attack on our collaborative process.

AND before some of you start, conspiracy theory responses or inquisition will get no response from me. As I've said before, you may not like wolves, you may hate WDFW and the WAG, you may not like any conservation groups, and you may feel all of the above are corrupt together. You're welcome to those opinions, but that doesn't make them fact.

You're correct that neither is on the WAG, but these groups definitely got word in advance from someone - likely CNW. I'm so glad they have their own wildlife commissioner (sarc). I seriously doubt it was a rancher or hunter representative who dropped the dime. With the federal delisting, there's zero reason that ranchers shouldn't be able to shoot-on-sight wolves preying on their livestock without anyone's approval. In the long run, this would actually save more wolves by acclimating them to the dangers of living and hunting around humans.

The fact remains that the USFWS lied to Congress on impact and left out information on disease, on purpose. Certainly the USFWS and likely also the WDFW knew all about the infestation of echinococcus granulosus in the Canadian wolves and yet didn't raise a squeak about it in their hurry to push through the outrageous wolf plan.

Had this been done legally, it either never would've happened or it would've been done in a more responsible manner, developing a plan which moved toward delisting and emphasized populating only the most remote wilderness areas of the state...with healthy animals. This is a fiasco and I be thrilled to know why you're such a staunch supporter of it in its present, outrageous form, as opposed to the aforementioned more reasonable approach. :dunno:
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Re: Lawsuit would prevent the WDFW from killing more wolves preying on cattle
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2017, 10:15:07 AM »
How was a dime dropped?  Anyone can find out if an EIS was done, which was the basis of the lawsuit.
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