collapse
Double U Hunting Supply Be a more successful hunter!

Author Topic: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer  (Read 2406 times)

Offline JakeLand

  • WA State Trappers Association
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2011
  • Posts: 1507
  • Location: SULTAN
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2017, 12:13:54 PM »
Mule deer to the SJI?  Sounds like bad science (at least based on the studies I read and commented on about 18 months ago). 

Those island Blacktail are the size they are because of their environment, not genetics.  Removal of predators resulted in too many deer, which have over-utilized the food resources available and created scarcity of browse for the entire population.  When food is scarce for maternal does, it results in underweight fawns at birth.  Those fawns must then try to thrive through the same scarcity of food during their early growth phases.  As you might guess, after suffering malnutrition since they were just a few cells growing in the mothers placenta, a population of abnormally small adult deer eventually becomes the norm.   

If you took a freshly impregnated island doe and put her in an environment without food shortage, the fawn would likely be of normal birth size and grow to normal adult BT proportions, assuming it had adequate food during it's early years.
make sense to me   :tup:

Offline Night goat

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Scout
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 250
  • Location: Nunya
  • skookum magoo strikes again!!!
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2017, 03:30:20 PM »
you guys obviously don't know the local san juan deer hunting secret method  :tup:

maybe lokidog knows it


you need two things....

a ball peen hammer....

and an apple


 :cue:

 :chuckle:

Offline singleshot12

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Frontiersman
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2007
  • Posts: 3333
  • Location: N.W. Washington
  • WWA,PF
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2017, 03:52:43 PM »
you guys obviously don't know the local san juan deer hunting pet harvest secret method  :tup:

maybe lokidog knows it


you need two things....

a ball peen hammer....

and an apple
 

 :cue:

 :chuckle:

 fixed it for ya  :chuckle:  How does someone hunt pets or livestock  :dunno:
NATURE HAS A WAY

Offline Shrimper

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Scout
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 281
  • Location: Lake Stevens
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2017, 04:14:00 PM »
These deer provide the best venison, unbelievable how good it is. :EAT:
Life's hard, it's harder if your stupid - John Wayne

Hey! I don't come to where you work and throw rocks at ya while yer mowin'...

Offline singleshot12

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Frontiersman
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2007
  • Posts: 3333
  • Location: N.W. Washington
  • WWA,PF
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2017, 04:16:14 PM »
Except for the ones eating dog food, they tend to be very greasy.
NATURE HAS A WAY

Offline csaaphill

  • Anti Hunters are weird animals.
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Old Salt
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 9342
  • Hunting is non-negotiable it's what I do!
  • Groups: G.O.A., Rocky Mountain ELk Foundation
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2017, 05:39:05 PM »
 :chuckle:
This reply takes the cake what an ass.

Having recently moved here from Camas Washington, where we were plagued by hunters shooting at all hours, and there were a more than plentiful supply of cougar, bear and coyote to keep populations in check, I have to say that I do not see that San Juan Island has a significantly larger deer population than the area we came from.

 As an avid gardener I understand the frustrations when overgrazing takes out your prize plants, and I can only imagine that in farming situations this is magnified a thousand fold, but weighing up the pros and cons with a new eye I think on balance we should leave the deer alone.

They are smaller but definitely less disease ridden than many on the mainland I have seen.

I am sure that there are more pressing environmental issues for us to consider, such as oil exports and refineries that could decimate our seas if something went wrong, I think it is prudent to pick our battles.





"When my bow falls, so shall the world. When me heart ceases to pump blood to my body, it will all come crashing down. As a hunter, we are bound by duty, nay, bound by our very soul to this world. When a hunter dies we feel it, we sense it, and the world trembles with sorrow. When I die, so shall the world, from the shock of loosing such a great part of ones soul." Ezekiel, Okeanos Hunter

Offline csaaphill

  • Anti Hunters are weird animals.
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Old Salt
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 9342
  • Hunting is non-negotiable it's what I do!
  • Groups: G.O.A., Rocky Mountain ELk Foundation
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2017, 05:46:12 PM »
The.... let bow hunters in was good. :twocents:
"When my bow falls, so shall the world. When me heart ceases to pump blood to my body, it will all come crashing down. As a hunter, we are bound by duty, nay, bound by our very soul to this world. When a hunter dies we feel it, we sense it, and the world trembles with sorrow. When I die, so shall the world, from the shock of loosing such a great part of ones soul." Ezekiel, Okeanos Hunter

Offline lokidog

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 12775
  • Location: Decatur Island
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2017, 07:45:36 PM »
Mule deer to the SJI?  Sounds like bad science (at least based on the studies I read and commented on about 18 months ago). 

Those island Blacktail are the size they are because of their environment, not genetics.  Removal of predators resulted in too many deer, which have over-utilized the food resources available and created scarcity of browse for the entire population.  When food is scarce for maternal does, it results in underweight fawns at birth.  Those fawns must then try to thrive through the same scarcity of food during their early growth phases.  As you might guess, after suffering malnutrition since they were just a few cells growing in the mothers placenta, a population of abnormally small adult deer eventually becomes the norm.   

If you took a freshly impregnated island doe and put her in an environment without food shortage, the fawn would likely be of normal birth size and grow to normal adult BT proportions, assuming it had adequate food during it's early years.

I agree, to a point.... I believe that after generations of being in the islands, and on different islands, the gene pool has shifted to favor smaller deer that need less winter browse/food to survive.  There is some genetic mixing between the islands to help keep things interesting, but I do think that if you took a deer from Decatur and fed it all it could eat, it would still be smaller than a deer on Lopez or the mainland.  The evidence to back this up is that there are pockets of deer on each of the islands that do not have a scarcity of food due to their home range happening to be in a food rich location like alfalfa near orchards, and these deer appear to be relatively the same size as all of the other deer on each island.

Offline Night goat

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Scout
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 250
  • Location: Nunya
  • skookum magoo strikes again!!!
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2017, 08:09:56 PM »
what about the long term impact from Spieden island? heard a lot of rumors about those critters getting onto the other islands

Offline lokidog

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 12775
  • Location: Decatur Island
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2017, 08:20:48 PM »
what about the long term impact from Spieden island? heard a lot of rumors about those critters getting onto the other islands

Like what, sheep/deer hybrids, fallow/blacktail hybrids?   :chuckle:  I've never heard of anything being seen on another island, though maybe the Mouflon on Stuart came from there....

Offline kevinlisa06

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2010
  • Posts: 934
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2017, 08:22:09 PM »
I just offered up my assistance in removing a deer or 2 see if I get bashed or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Night goat

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Scout
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 250
  • Location: Nunya
  • skookum magoo strikes again!!!
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2017, 08:42:12 PM »
what about the long term impact from Spieden island? heard a lot of rumors about those critters getting onto the other islands

Like what, sheep/deer hybrids, fallow/blacktail hybrids?   :chuckle:  I've never heard of anything being seen on another island, though maybe the Mouflon on Stuart came from there....

seen some deer with a white backside, seen spotted deer.... that kinda stuff

Offline lokidog

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 12775
  • Location: Decatur Island
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2017, 09:05:00 PM »
There are piebald deer on all of the islands, nothing to do with Spieden.  I've never heard of the others. Either way, there would not be enough of an impact to effect deer populations on other islands, IMO.

Offline wendigo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Pilgrim
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2016
  • Posts: 13
  • Location: darrington
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2017, 09:38:49 PM »
“I just cannot find enough places for enough people to go to kill enough deer to make a difference,” she said. “I’m not 100 percent convinced we could ever reduce the population with hunting as a tool alone. Because we can’t get enough people out on the landscape to kill enough deer we’re not ever going to reduce the population with hunting. We’re never going to reduce it, probably, totally all over the island. Don’t really know because we’ve never really tried.”



Give off islanders tags and directions to feel free to hunt properties and they will overload the ferry system coming over.

The problem will just solve itself when the population crashes. There are already a ton of piebald deer running around on that island which is a sure sign of a weak gene pool.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline fishnfur

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 2091
  • Location: longview
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2017, 12:32:08 AM »
“I just cannot find enough places for enough people to go to kill enough deer to make a difference,” she said. “I’m not 100 percent convinced we could ever reduce the population with hunting as a tool alone. Because we can’t get enough people out on the landscape to kill enough deer we’re not ever going to reduce the population with hunting. We’re never going to reduce it, probably, totally all over the island. Don’t really know because we’ve never really tried.”



The problem will just solve itself when the population crashes. There are already a ton of piebald deer running around on that island which is a sure sign of a weak gene pool.


The piebald gene will stay in that population just fine if there are not enough predators to remove them, and since it doesn't make them run slower, it is really only detrimental when you throw humans with guns into the mix.  Piebalds are found throughout most animal populations.  I bet they don't consider it a weakness.   ;)
“When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.”  - Will Rogers

Offline fishnfur

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 2091
  • Location: longview
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2017, 12:48:55 AM »
Mule deer to the SJI?  Sounds like bad science (at least based on the studies I read and commented on about 18 months ago). 

Those island Blacktail are the size they are because of their environment, not genetics.  Removal of predators resulted in too many deer, which have over-utilized the food resources available and created scarcity of browse for the entire population.  When food is scarce for maternal does, it results in underweight fawns at birth.  Those fawns must then try to thrive through the same scarcity of food during their early growth phases.  As you might guess, after suffering malnutrition since they were just a few cells growing in the mothers placenta, a population of abnormally small adult deer eventually becomes the norm.   

If you took a freshly impregnated island doe and put her in an environment without food shortage, the fawn would likely be of normal birth size and grow to normal adult BT proportions, assuming it had adequate food during it's early years.

I agree, to a point.... I believe that after generations of being in the islands, and on different islands, the gene pool has shifted to favor smaller deer that need less winter browse/food to survive.  There is some genetic mixing between the islands to help keep things interesting, but I do think that if you took a deer from Decatur and fed it all it could eat, it would still be smaller than a deer on Lopez or the mainland.  The evidence to back this up is that there are pockets of deer on each of the islands that do not have a scarcity of food due to their home range happening to be in a food rich location like alfalfa near orchards, and these deer appear to be relatively the same size as all of the other deer on each island.

To a certain extent, I agree with you.  It makes total sense that smaller bodied deer need less food and are thus more successful in staying in the population long enough to breed.  The question is how much genetic effect has this increased survival and breeding success had on that population,  (considering that there are not massive die-offs due to starvation) during the relatively short period of time since predators were removed from the islands?  Not that much, me thinks. You can change genetic phenotypes (outward appearance of an animal based on genetic expression) pretty quickly if you isolate just a few individuals and cross them for the traits your trying to achieve (like dogs), but groups of wild animals take a lot of time to change an entire population.

We've beat this dead horse before, so this is definitely my last whack.   :)
“When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.”  - Will Rogers

Offline predatorG

  • Ski Bum
  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Scout
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 482
  • Location: Kitsap
  • BT's are making me crazy
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2017, 06:29:20 AM »
I played a team from orcas island in a basketball tournament in June. They said lots of the same things.

If I recall, several eastern states allow you to shoot multiple deer after purchasing a tag. I'm not sure how the deer levels on San Juan compare to certain whitetail areas, but the suggested over the counter second deer tag that someone suggested sounded like a fine idea to me.
"All of my best elk hunts are the ones where I come home with a big buck!" -RadSav

Offline fishnfur

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 2091
  • Location: longview
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2017, 07:24:55 PM »
A free second tag if you tag out on a doe for your first one would go a long way in cutting down the reproductive rates.
“When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.”  - Will Rogers

Offline lokidog

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 12775
  • Location: Decatur Island
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2017, 10:12:45 PM »
A free second tag if you tag out on a doe for your first one would go a long way in cutting down the reproductive rates.

WI has/had areas called Earn a Buck where that was the case, though the second tag wasn't free. I'd shoot a doe if the tag were $20... and I could still fill my buck tag.  ;)

Offline Night goat

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Scout
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 250
  • Location: Nunya
  • skookum magoo strikes again!!!
Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2017, 10:32:23 PM »
if I could get 2 deer on orcas, it wouldn't matter if they had a rack or not. meat is meat

 

* Recent Topics

WY points by boneaddict
[Today at 08:13:17 AM]


2017 Deer, post them here (photos & stats) by MuleySniper
[Today at 08:13:00 AM]


What gun for bear, for wife? by KFhunter
[Today at 08:01:14 AM]


Idaho Fall Season by pianoman9701
[Today at 07:59:45 AM]


BC Moose Hunt by pianoman9701
[Today at 07:57:10 AM]


Possible poaching in the Bumping by pianoman9701
[Today at 07:55:15 AM]


Opening day mulie by jennabug
[Today at 07:54:45 AM]


Opening day luck? by YoungFowler
[Today at 07:49:59 AM]


Bobcat around the house by pianoman9701
[Today at 07:47:43 AM]


3nails opening day blacktail by h2ofowlr
[Today at 07:36:15 AM]


Bucks moving to does by cohochemist
[Today at 07:33:54 AM]


Age 10 Girl Proudly Kills 220-Pound Black Bear. Mom Fires Back at Haters After B by Ripper
[Today at 07:29:47 AM]


FIRST SNOW OF THE YEAR. by White Pass Outfitters
[Today at 07:25:24 AM]


Pack out pics by White Pass Outfitters
[Today at 07:24:31 AM]


WY Solo DIY Public Land Antelope Success by CaNINE
[Today at 07:19:05 AM]


Kapowsin by ctwiggs1
[Today at 07:08:24 AM]


F-S Pigeons for Dog Training by Shannon
[Today at 06:29:41 AM]


Suppressor by Mongo Hunter
[Today at 06:28:12 AM]


What kind of food do you take with you for a day hunt? by meat hntr78
[Today at 06:24:47 AM]


Big Blacktails on this thread? by headshot5
[Today at 06:24:45 AM]