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Author Topic: Should 209 primers be legal?  (Read 8536 times)

Offline bobcat

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #200 on: October 25, 2017, 10:44:58 AM »
I voted yes but if I wanted to use 209s I'd need to buy a new rifle. Unless CVA begins making a Washington legal breech plug that uses 209s. They do have a 209 breech plug that would fit my gun, but it wouldn't meet the "exposed to the elements" requirement. Well, maybe the WDFW will remove that rule as well? In that case, I could have a 209 capable muzzleloader for only about $35.

Just out of curiosity... which CVA do you have?

It's the CVA Optima Northwest, and yes, I already know you hate CVAs.   :tup:

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #201 on: October 25, 2017, 11:33:56 AM »
Right?
Its the Italian in me. My mom actually smacked me in the mouth one time for asking if grandpa was going to die... Like saying it out loud might make it happen.

The truth is most all of us are going to have misfires or hang fires and if were able to use 209's then what are we going to blame it on.
I change my vote. I need an excuse for my bad habits. :)

My Irish mother thought I had more likely than not summoned down the wrath of God on the entire family when at the age of ~ 17 I proclaimed that Archbishop Hunthausen was an unrepentant heretic and a NeoMarxist as well as a crackpot.  I think she considered any and all options available to get me to recant before hell-fire and brimstone rained down on the entire clan.  Ya' can't criticize the Archbishop, dontcha' know that?  Well I didn't know that and I stood by my analysis and if history of that nutjob's tenure at the helm of the Seattle Archdiocese is anything to go by and how he was eventually dealt with by The Church, what I recognized early on was a valid observation.   

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #202 on: October 25, 2017, 12:30:00 PM »
I voted yes but if I wanted to use 209s I'd need to buy a new rifle. Unless CVA begins making a Washington legal breech plug that uses 209s. They do have a 209 breech plug that would fit my gun, but it wouldn't meet the "exposed to the elements" requirement. Well, maybe the WDFW will remove that rule as well? In that case, I could have a 209 capable muzzleloader for only about $35.

Just out of curiosity... which CVA do you have?

It's the CVA Optima Northwest, and yes, I already know you hate CVAs.   :tup:

No  I wouldn't say I hate them... I had a few once.. but today I do not have any for good reasons in my mind.  The fact is ifn they work for you and the confidence is there - have at it....

I am just not sure why you do not think you could convert it to shoot 209's

Wait first... if Washington were to make 209's legal they would have to do something with the visible ignition rule also.  Safety would almost dictate that.

What twist is the barrel?

It should convert with just a few parts...

But as you know I am not a CVA expert...

mike
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline bobcat

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #203 on: October 25, 2017, 01:13:28 PM »
I voted yes but if I wanted to use 209s I'd need to buy a new rifle. Unless CVA begins making a Washington legal breech plug that uses 209s. They do have a 209 breech plug that would fit my gun, but it wouldn't meet the "exposed to the elements" requirement. Well, maybe the WDFW will remove that rule as well? In that case, I could have a 209 capable muzzleloader for only about $35.

Just out of curiosity... which CVA do you have?

It's the CVA Optima Northwest, and yes, I already know you hate CVAs.   :tup:

No  I wouldn't say I hate them... I had a few once.. but today I do not have any for good reasons in my mind.  The fact is ifn they work for you and the confidence is there - have at it....

I am just not sure why you do not think you could convert it to shoot 209's

Wait first... if Washington were to make 209's legal they would have to do something with the visible ignition rule also.  Safety would almost dictate that.

What twist is the barrel?

It should convert with just a few parts...

But as you know I am not a CVA expert...

mike

It's 1 in 28.

This one:  https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifles/cva-optimatm-v2-northwest-legal.html

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #204 on: October 25, 2017, 02:16:16 PM »
why not just hunt Modern Season.

Because it's about some people trying to stop others from doing things they don't like, no matter what the consequences.

What about those who prefer the length of the Muzzleloader Season as it stands and are willing to put up with caps as a fair trade off.  What WDFW has come right out and said is that they expect harvest rates to increase and that in response Season length will be adjust to reflect that dynamic.

I am not sure why you feel that the use of 209 will result in a greater harvest.  If you a seasoned cap hunter you really do not have any problems with ignition. So the belief that a 209 might save you from misfires or no-fires is probably not a significant factor.

I feel season dates, weather, available units, and open sights are the greater factors in determining harvest totals.
I don't think it is really about the seasoned muzzy hunter that knows how to keep the #11 dry.  Even those guys have the occasional misfire/hangfire.  Part of it is people want to hunt in a season that still has unpressured, legal animals running around and they want to climb over stumps, cross creeks, walk through wet reprod and ferns and not have to wonder the whole time if the gun will go boom or not.
For the argument about making it more humane, then 209 and scopes should be allowed.....and scoped crossbows should be in archery.   :peep:

And at that point Archery and Muzzleloading would incrementally be shortened until ultimately they are close to the same length as Modern Firearms Season.   This is not my pie in the sky prognostication, it is what WDFW has said.

In my chosen unit, the muzzy season is already shorter than modern or archery.  Archery gets 30 days in the early season and 40 days in the late season and they can shoot any deer they see. It's either sex.  Modern season is 18 days early season and 4 days late season. Bucks only. Muzzy is 9 days in the early season. No late season. Bucks only. So evidently Muzzle loaders are already the most effective killers out there. (I'm being facetious)

Then there are special permits. Modern hunters can put in for 20 antlerless tags and they have the 18 day early season to succeed.  Muzzy hunters can draw for 5 antlerless tags and have only 9 days to succeed.

So it isn't all about success rate. Some of it is about how much pull you have. Archery definitely has more pull than muzzy hunters. Muzzies are the red headed step children of this state when it comes to hunting and hunting opportunities.

Ohhhh and both modern and archery hunters get a shot at the bucks after the rut has kicked in and the leaves are gone for better visibility.
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Offline W_Ellison2011

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #205 on: October 25, 2017, 04:22:45 PM »
I voted no. Many reasons why! One would be that it is a more consistent ignition system even in the elements thus the amount of kills would greatly increase. That takes away from the idea of the muzzle loader. Its bad enough that the muzzy guys and gals are skirting the law by putting plastic and tape over their caps.. which technically is illegal because that means the cap wasnt exposed to the elements at all times. When i think muzzle loader hunting i think like my old hawkens .50 cal with a side hammer or even older muzzle loader rifles. If you are good you can hit targets at 100 yards with a round ball. These modern inline muzzle loaders using saboted rounds and such can shoot 150-200 yards no problem. If there is no significant difference between the 209 primers and caps then why push so hard for the 209s? Doesnt make sense.

Offline goldenhtr

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #206 on: October 25, 2017, 05:25:52 PM »
why not just hunt Modern Season.

Because it's about some people trying to stop others from doing things they don't like, no matter what the consequences.

What about those who prefer the length of the Muzzleloader Season as it stands and are willing to put up with caps as a fair trade off.  What WDFW has come right out and said is that they expect harvest rates to increase and that in response Season length will be adjust to reflect that dynamic.

I am not sure why you feel that the use of 209 will result in a greater harvest.  If you a seasoned cap hunter you really do not have any problems with ignition. So the belief that a 209 might save you from misfires or no-fires is probably not a significant factor.

I feel season dates, weather, available units, and open sights are the greater factors in determining harvest totals.
I don't think it is really about the seasoned muzzy hunter that knows how to keep the #11 dry.  Even those guys have the occasional misfire/hangfire.  Part of it is people want to hunt in a season that still has unpressured, legal animals running around and they want to climb over stumps, cross creeks, walk through wet reprod and ferns and not have to wonder the whole time if the gun will go boom or not.
For the argument about making it more humane, then 209 and scopes should be allowed.....and scoped crossbows should be in archery.   :peep:

And at that point Archery and Muzzleloading would incrementally be shortened until ultimately they are close to the same length as Modern Firearms Season.   This is not my pie in the sky prognostication, it is what WDFW has said.

In my chosen unit, the muzzy season is already shorter than modern or archery.  Archery gets 30 days in the early season and 40 days in the late season and they can shoot any deer they see. It's either sex.  Modern season is 18 days early season and 4 days late season. Bucks only. Muzzy is 9 days in the early season. No late season. Bucks only. So evidently Muzzle loaders are already the most effective killers out there. (I'm being facetious)

Then there are special permits. Modern hunters can put in for 20 antlerless tags and they have the 18 day early season to succeed.  Muzzy hunters can draw for 5 antlerless tags and have only 9 days to succeed.

So it isn't all about success rate. Some of it is about how much pull you have. Archery definitely has more pull than muzzy hunters. Muzzies are the red headed step children of this state when it comes to hunting and hunting opportunities.

Ohhhh and both modern and archery hunters get a shot at the bucks after the rut has kicked in and the leaves are gone for better visibility.

Wow where to start, First of all I do hunt archery because of the longer season. You can to if you want to. To say archery hunters can shoot at ANY deer, you need to reread the regs. There are plenty of areas that you can't just shoot any deer. There are several units that do allow this as there are several MZ units that do the same. I don't know what unit you chose to hunt but the regs say all MZ general season units were Sept.30 - Oct. 8 you have the late season starting on Nov 20 until Dec 15 depending on what unit you want to hunt. I spent 33 years hunting modern and another 6 hunting MZ. I have now chose for the last 6 years to hunt with a bow, yes it affords me more time in the field if I want. I was never a fan of the choose your weapon when it came out and there brain washing has worked now pitting each group against each other over time in the field. 18 days for modern? Not where I used to hunt. Back then it was reduced to 9 and only recently they upped it to 11. You seem to be nitpicking the seasons, if you are not happy with your time in the field take more vacation or choose a different weapon it really is that easy. Good Hunting...........

Oh and as far as 209s go I could really careless either way. But I would like to be able to mount a camera on my bow.......................
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Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #207 on: October 25, 2017, 06:08:28 PM »
I have been paying to hunt Unit 660 Minot Peak because it's close to home and I can take my son out after school.  I'm not paying to hunt another unit in the late season. I probably won't pay to hunt there after this year. As for archery, I have a bad shoulder so it's not comfy to do any more. I do like hunting muzzy, but the season frankly sucks.

As for the season lengths I just posted, you can check yourself if you don't believe me. Early season rifle Oct 14-Oct 31. That is 18 days in my book. Archers get it Sept 1- Sept 29 Ooops only 29 days, not 30, my bad. and Nov 22 - Dec 31. That is 40 days. So 69 days of any deer archery and only 9 days of muzzleloading buck only season. And this is in a unit I am paying to hunt in. You can't tell me that there is a management reason that Archery can't give up some days to muzzleloading. Especially with bucks only for muzzy season. It's not management, it's political.  I'd hunt muzzy there if the season was reasonable. Instead I hunt modern so odds are better I'll get my deer. In fact I already have.  Politics is forcing me to hunt with a more efficient weapon.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 07:36:14 PM by Sitka_Blacktail »
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Offline snake

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #208 on: October 25, 2017, 06:53:57 PM »
I have been paying to hunt Unit 660 Minot Peak because it's close to home and I can take my son out after school.  I'm not paying to hunt another unit in the late season. I probably won't pay to hunt there after this year. As for archery, I have a bad should so it's not comfy to do any more. I do like hunting muzzy, but the season frankly sucks.

As for the season lengths I just posted, you can check yourself if you don't believe me. Early season rifle Oct 14-Oct 31. That is 18 days in my book. Archers get it Sept 1- Sept 29 Ooops only 29 days, not 30, my bad. and Nov 22 - Dec 31. That is 40 days. So 69 days of any deer archery and only 9 days of muzzleloading buck only season. And this is in a unit I am paying to hunt in. You can't tell me that there is a management reason that Archery can't give up some days to muzzleloading. Especially with bucks only for muzzy season. It's not management, it's political.  I'd hunt muzzy there if the season was reasonable. Instead I hunt modern so odds are better I'll get my deer. In fact I already have.  Politics is forcing me to hunt with a more efficient weapon.

"More efficient weapon" is the key statement  here. 

Offline goldenhtr

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #209 on: October 26, 2017, 08:47:07 PM »
I have been paying to hunt Unit 660 Minot Peak because it's close to home and I can take my son out after school.  I'm not paying to hunt another unit in the late season. I probably won't pay to hunt there after this year. As for archery, I have a bad shoulder so it's not comfy to do any more. I do like hunting muzzy, but the season frankly sucks.

As for the season lengths I just posted, you can check yourself if you don't believe me. Early season rifle Oct 14-Oct 31. That is 18 days in my book. Archers get it Sept 1- Sept 29 Ooops only 29 days, not 30, my bad. and Nov 22 - Dec 31. That is 40 days. So 69 days of any deer archery and only 9 days of muzzleloading buck only season. And this is in a unit I am paying to hunt in. You can't tell me that there is a management reason that Archery can't give up some days to muzzleloading. Especially with bucks only for muzzy season. It's not management, it's political.  I'd hunt muzzy there if the season was reasonable. Instead I hunt modern so odds are better I'll get my deer. In fact I already have.  Politics is forcing me to hunt with a more efficient weapon.

First of all good for you getting your son out. I also enjoy hunting with my sons. If paying to hunt helps that's great but it's your choice. You are correct on the number of days but wrong on the point that it's ANY DEER for 69 days, now some units offer that option but others only offer any buck or 3 pt min. Just like MZ seasons some units offer any deer as well and others any buck. The number of days is a direct reflection of the success between archery and long guns. Sounds like you have hunted archery before?? I will say since I changed to archery I totally enjoy hunting alot more having to get VERY close to the game I'm after. With rifes getting out to 1000 yards now and MZs going out to 200+ archery is much more of a challenge and more fun, at least for me. Enjoy your time with your son now. Mine are grown with kids of their own. So it can be a challenge to get all three of us together on a hunt now. Oldest grandson is turning 9 next spring so in the next couple years it's been my goal to hunt all three generations together.
Founders for militia definition: ..[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788. No founder is on record arguing with this definition - many support it. Then there's Patrick Henry: "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #210 on: October 26, 2017, 10:15:18 PM »
I have been paying to hunt Unit 660 Minot Peak because it's close to home and I can take my son out after school.  I'm not paying to hunt another unit in the late season. I probably won't pay to hunt there after this year. As for archery, I have a bad shoulder so it's not comfy to do any more. I do like hunting muzzy, but the season frankly sucks.

As for the season lengths I just posted, you can check yourself if you don't believe me. Early season rifle Oct 14-Oct 31. That is 18 days in my book. Archers get it Sept 1- Sept 29 Ooops only 29 days, not 30, my bad. and Nov 22 - Dec 31. That is 40 days. So 69 days of any deer archery and only 9 days of muzzleloading buck only season. And this is in a unit I am paying to hunt in. You can't tell me that there is a management reason that Archery can't give up some days to muzzleloading. Especially with bucks only for muzzy season. It's not management, it's political.  I'd hunt muzzy there if the season was reasonable. Instead I hunt modern so odds are better I'll get my deer. In fact I already have.  Politics is forcing me to hunt with a more efficient weapon.

First of all good for you getting your son out. I also enjoy hunting with my sons. If paying to hunt helps that's great but it's your choice. You are correct on the number of days but wrong on the point that it's ANY DEER for 69 days, now some units offer that option but others only offer any buck or 3 pt min. Just like MZ seasons some units offer any deer as well and others any buck. The number of days is a direct reflection of the success between archery and long guns. Sounds like you have hunted archery before?? I will say since I changed to archery I totally enjoy hunting alot more having to get VERY close to the game I'm after. With rifes getting out to 1000 yards now and MZs going out to 200+ archery is much more of a challenge and more fun, at least for me. Enjoy your time with your son now. Mine are grown with kids of their own. So it can be a challenge to get all three of us together on a hunt now. Oldest grandson is turning 9 next spring so in the next couple years it's been my goal to hunt all three generations together.

goldnhtr, I'm talking about the unit that I hunt locally, 660 Minot Peak. It is any deer for 69 days for archery.  As for black powder, I treat it like I'm hunting with a bow. I certainly don't take 200 yard shots. My limit for a first shot is 50-60 yards. Most of the deer I have taken hunting black powder have been under 20 yards with 4 of them being 5-10 yards. We used to hunt Lincoln, 501 back when it was open access. But I'm not willing to pay for more than one unit to hunt in. As I said, I chose the local area to be able to take my son out after school.

As for challenging...... The success rates in my unit (660) are 21% for Modern, 18% for archery, and 5% for muzzleloaders.  Part of that is because of the liberal  archery season and the short muzzy season.  There is no biological reason that muzzy hunters can't have more time in there. Especially when they are paying to hunt there. 

Go down to deer table 5 through table 7 and you will see the state's own data on this.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2017/district17.pdf
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Offline goldenhtr

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #211 on: October 27, 2017, 07:43:40 PM »
I have been paying to hunt Unit 660 Minot Peak because it's close to home and I can take my son out after school.  I'm not paying to hunt another unit in the late season. I probably won't pay to hunt there after this year. As for archery, I have a bad shoulder so it's not comfy to do any more. I do like hunting muzzy, but the season frankly sucks.

As for the season lengths I just posted, you can check yourself if you don't believe me. Early season rifle Oct 14-Oct 31. That is 18 days in my book. Archers get it Sept 1- Sept 29 Ooops only 29 days, not 30, my bad. and Nov 22 - Dec 31. That is 40 days. So 69 days of any deer archery and only 9 days of muzzleloading buck only season. And this is in a unit I am paying to hunt in. You can't tell me that there is a management reason that Archery can't give up some days to muzzleloading. Especially with bucks only for muzzy season. It's not management, it's political.  I'd hunt muzzy there if the season was reasonable. Instead I hunt modern so odds are better I'll get my deer. In fact I already have.  Politics is forcing me to hunt with a more efficient weapon.

First of all good for you getting your son out. I also enjoy hunting with my sons. If paying to hunt helps that's great but it's your choice. You are correct on the number of days but wrong on the point that it's ANY DEER for 69 days, now some units offer that option but others only offer any buck or 3 pt min. Just like MZ seasons some units offer any deer as well and others any buck. The number of days is a direct reflection of the success between archery and long guns. Sounds like you have hunted archery before?? I will say since I changed to archery I totally enjoy hunting alot more having to get VERY close to the game I'm after. With rifes getting out to 1000 yards now and MZs going out to 200+ archery is much more of a challenge and more fun, at least for me. Enjoy your time with your son now. Mine are grown with kids of their own. So it can be a challenge to get all three of us together on a hunt now. Oldest grandson is turning 9 next spring so in the next couple years it's been my goal to hunt all three generations together.

goldnhtr, I'm talking about the unit that I hunt locally, 660 Minot Peak. It is any deer for 69 days for archery.  As for black powder, I treat it like I'm hunting with a bow. I certainly don't take 200 yard shots. My limit for a first shot is 50-60 yards. Most of the deer I have taken hunting black powder have been under 20 yards with 4 of them being 5-10 yards. We used to hunt Lincoln, 501 back when it was open access. But I'm not willing to pay for more than one unit to hunt in. As I said, I chose the local area to be able to take my son out after school.

As for challenging...... The success rates in my unit (660) are 21% for Modern, 18% for archery, and 5% for muzzleloaders.  Part of that is because of the liberal  archery season and the short muzzy season.  There is no biological reason that muzzy hunters can't have more time in there. Especially when they are paying to hunt there. 

Go down to deer table 5 through table 7 and you will see the state's own data on this.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2017/district17.pdf

Ok I see where you are going with this I think. I see in the regs that IN YOUR UNIT 660 archers have the late hunt. There for you have no late hunt close to home that you paid for. BTW you don't pay the WDFW for your access so that is a non factor to me and has nothing to do with the season length. I have the same gripe in the unit I spend most of my time in unit 130. Several years ago they took this unit (late hunt)from archers and gave the late season in this unit to MZ users. Tell you what I will give up the late archery hunt in unit 660 if you give up the late MZ hunt in unit 130. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:  Bottom line is you want more time in the woods. Sounds like you need to take up archery. My brother still hunts MZ and has not connected in the last 5 years and he takes the whole 9 days off work and hunts every day. Looks like success is directly related to the area you hunt, surprise. But I think you know that. Take advantage of the time you have with your son in the field and remember it's not all about harvesting an animal at this point. You didn't say how old your son is but as he gets older maybe an incentive for good school work he can get a couple days out of school to hit the field for several days in a row.(TFSS)
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Offline Lefty315

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #212 on: October 27, 2017, 09:01:34 PM »
I voted no. Many reasons why! One would be that it is a more consistent ignition system even in the elements thus the amount of kills would greatly increase. That takes away from the idea of the muzzle loader. Its bad enough that the muzzy guys and gals are skirting the law by putting plastic and tape over their caps.. which technically is illegal because that means the cap wasnt exposed to the elements at all times. When i think muzzle loader hunting i think like my old hawkens .50 cal with a side hammer or even older muzzle loader rifles. If you are good you can hit targets at 100 yards with a round ball. These modern inline muzzle loaders using saboted rounds and such can shoot 150-200 yards no problem. If there is no significant difference between the 209 primers and caps then why push so hard for the 209s? Doesnt make sense.

So by your thinking you would rather see possible hang fires and wounded animals?   The limitations that muzzleloader hunters have has more to do with open sights and having one shot available until they can reload.    I'm guessing with practice someone might get that done in 15-20 seconds, but most people will not.   You could make the same argument regarding compound bows versus traditional bows.   To ask the same question you did, if there isn't significant difference between 209 primers and caps then why should anyone care?   Especially other hunters....sticking together on hunting issues is more beneficial to all hunters.   Someday you may need the voice or vote of someone who hunts with a different weapon than you do.

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #213 on: October 28, 2017, 05:11:56 PM »
I voted no. Many reasons why! One would be that it is a more consistent ignition system even in the elements thus the amount of kills would greatly increase. That takes away from the idea of the muzzle loader. Its bad enough that the muzzy guys and gals are skirting the law by putting plastic and tape over their caps.. which technically is illegal because that means the cap wasnt exposed to the elements at all times. When i think muzzle loader hunting i think like my old hawkens .50 cal with a side hammer or even older muzzle loader rifles. If you are good you can hit targets at 100 yards with a round ball. These modern inline muzzle loaders using saboted rounds and such can shoot 150-200 yards no problem. If there is no significant difference between the 209 primers and caps then why push so hard for the 209s? Doesnt make sense.

So by your thinking you would rather see possible hang fires and wounded animals?   The limitations that muzzleloader hunters have has more to do with open sights and having one shot available until they can reload.    I'm guessing with practice someone might get that done in 15-20 seconds, but most people will not.   You could make the same argument regarding compound bows versus traditional bows.   To ask the same question you did, if there isn't significant difference between 209 primers and caps then why should anyone care?   Especially other hunters....sticking together on hunting issues is more beneficial to all hunters.   Someday you may need the voice or vote of someone who hunts with a different weapon than you do.

So why does this demand they accept your position and not compel you to come their way?

Offline Kazekurt

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #214 on: October 28, 2017, 07:04:52 PM »
A sad reality in this country is that people are very willing to vote or advocate away the rights of other people; or vote  them into a position of disadvantage simply because they have little to no skin in the game  or perceive that they will gain some sort of benefit at no cost to them personally.   This is very flawed thinking  because it almost always eventually comes calling.  People who are not gun owners will almost always vote to legislate guns,  people who do not own property will almost always vote to raise property taxes, etc.  I honestly believe the vast majority of the people who would be against this are people who believe it would somehow disadvantage them in someway.  It's just like the illuminated Knocks, mechanical broadheads, etc.  I have no doubt if you were to take a survey of only muzzle loader or bow hunters and ask them if they would be willing to ban scopes on rifles that a majority would do it.   Do you guys honestly believe that changing the ignition system is going to cause a monumental shift in The harvest statistics?  I don't,  and it's because as a previous poster said, you are still limited to no optics and a single shot.   Unfortunately, rifle hunters are the biggest user group, and they almost always gang up on the other user groups with help  from traditionalists who want to drive as many people out of their user group as possible so they can hunt alone.   My philosophy is to live and let live. If it isn't something that will monumentally affect safety in an adverse way or devastate herds then let it be.   I have a neighbor that works for the WDFW  and he told me long ago that there are some very selfish hunters in this state that make it hard to do the right thing a lot of the time.  One example I will site is that we do very little for youth hunters compared to other states and  my neighbor said every time they discuss lengthening the season for youth, letting them start earlier, or letting them shoot animals that others cannot, people throw a fit.  Heaven forbid, somebody else might get someone's buck, and at the end of the day that is what drives all of these  decisions.  The day will come when the antis will vote away our right to hunt and  we will largely have our own self to blame because we seem to do our darndest to discourage other hunters from hunting by making it it as difficult on them as possible.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #215 on: October 28, 2017, 07:35:13 PM »
A sad reality in this country is that people are very willing to vote or advocate away the rights of other people; or vote  them into a position of disadvantage simply because they have little to no skin in the game  or perceive that they will gain some sort of benefit at no cost to them personally.   This is very flawed thinking  because it almost always eventually comes calling.  People who are not gun owners will almost always vote to legislate guns,  people who do not own property will almost always vote to raise property taxes, etc.  I honestly believe the vast majority of the people who would be against this are people who believe it would somehow disadvantage them in someway.  It's just like the illuminated Knocks, mechanical broadheads, etc.  I have no doubt if you were to take a survey of only muzzle loader or bow hunters and ask them if they would be willing to ban scopes on rifles that a majority would do it.   Do you guys honestly believe that changing the ignition system is going to cause a monumental shift in The harvest statistics?  I don't,  and it's because as a previous poster said, you are still limited to no optics and a single shot.   Unfortunately, rifle hunters are the biggest user group, and they almost always gang up on the other user groups with help  from traditionalists who want to drive as many people out of their user group as possible so they can hunt alone.   My philosophy is to live and let live. If it isn't something that will monumentally affect safety in an adverse way or devastate herds then let it be.   I have a neighbor that works for the WDFW  and he told me long ago that there are some very selfish hunters in this state that make it hard to do the right thing a lot of the time.  One example I will site is that we do very little for youth hunters compared to other states and  my neighbor said every time they discuss lengthening the season for youth, letting them start earlier, or letting them shoot animals that others cannot, people throw a fit.  Heaven forbid, somebody else might get someone's buck, and at the end of the day that is what drives all of these  decisions.  The day will come when the antis will vote away our right to hunt and  we will largely have our own self to blame because we seem to do our darndest to discourage other hunters from hunting by making it it as difficult on them as possible.

Al-Right  :tup:
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #216 on: October 28, 2017, 07:43:49 PM »
A sad reality in this country is that people are very willing to vote or advocate away the rights of other people; or vote  them into a position of disadvantage simply because they have little to no skin in the game  or perceive that they will gain some sort of benefit at no cost to them personally.   This is very flawed thinking  because it almost always eventually comes calling.  People who are not gun owners will almost always vote to legislate guns,  people who do not own property will almost always vote to raise property taxes, etc.  I honestly believe the vast majority of the people who would be against this are people who believe it would somehow disadvantage them in someway.  It's just like the illuminated Knocks, mechanical broadheads, etc.  I have no doubt if you were to take a survey of only muzzle loader or bow hunters and ask them if they would be willing to ban scopes on rifles that a majority would do it.   Do you guys honestly believe that changing the ignition system is going to cause a monumental shift in The harvest statistics?  I don't,  and it's because as a previous poster said, you are still limited to no optics and a single shot.   Unfortunately, rifle hunters are the biggest user group, and they almost always gang up on the other user groups with help  from traditionalists who want to drive as many people out of their user group as possible so they can hunt alone.   My philosophy is to live and let live. If it isn't something that will monumentally affect safety in an adverse way or devastate herds then let it be.   I have a neighbor that works for the WDFW  and he told me long ago that there are some very selfish hunters in this state that make it hard to do the right thing a lot of the time.  One example I will site is that we do very little for youth hunters compared to other states and  my neighbor said every time they discuss lengthening the season for youth, letting them start earlier, or letting them shoot animals that others cannot, people throw a fit.  Heaven forbid, somebody else might get someone's buck, and at the end of the day that is what drives all of these  decisions.  The day will come when the antis will vote away our right to hunt and  we will largely have our own self to blame because we seem to do our darndest to discourage other hunters from hunting by making it it as difficult on them as possible.

I hunt ML and I am in favor of not changing the restriction. 

Offline Bob33

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #217 on: October 28, 2017, 07:51:46 PM »
Those opposed to making 209 primers legal aren't voting away anyone's rights. First, they are not legal currently so there is no right to take away. Second, there is no vote. Those opposed are satisfied with the status quo. Those who want to make them legal are the ones who want change.  It's ok to disagree. Disparaging others you don't agree with doesn't accomplish anything constructive.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #218 on: October 28, 2017, 07:53:18 PM »
Those opposed to making 209 primers legal aren't voting away anyone's rights. First, they are not legal currently so there is no right to take away. Second, there is no vote. Those opposed are satisfied with the status quo. Those who want to make them legal are the ones who want change.  It's ok to disagree. Disparaging others you don't agree with doesn't accomplish anything constructive.

Thank you for putting our point in context so concisely.

Offline Kazekurt

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #219 on: October 28, 2017, 08:56:59 PM »
My question is why oppose it?  If it is something that others want, why restrict them for no good reason?  I've killed deer with all three weapons,  so I probably have a unique insight into hunting with all three weapons, and I just can't see any solid reason to oppose it and most of the reasons I have seen presented in this thread so far come across as self-serving or derive from a parinia that somehow their own hunting experience will be adversely affected by the change.  I'm just asking you guys if you would be in favor of similar(but not the same) limitations being extended across the board. If that is not the case, then you are cherry picking  because I feel some of those arguing against would flip real fast  if the shoe were on the other foot.    I'm just asking people to be open minded and consistent.  This is not meant to disparage any particular individual, it's just a trend that I commonly see in our country at this point.

Offline Kazekurt

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #220 on: October 28, 2017, 09:12:11 PM »
I probably hunt with a ML the least of the three but I really enjoy it when I do.  I just feel that allowing a change in the ignition system of a muzzleloader, is far less advantageous than  allowing compounds to archers, or allowing magazines and optics to modern hunters,  all of which I am in favor of.   If you personally don't want to hunt with a modern ignition system, don't. But why restrict others?

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #221 on: October 28, 2017, 09:16:47 PM »
So, where does the line get drawn at?

Offline Kazekurt

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #222 on: October 28, 2017, 09:30:24 PM »
So, where does the line get drawn at?


 That is the million dollar question.    I feel that the majority  of the people who are against this change, feel that allowing it would be making a muzzleloader too much like a modern rifle.  To me, that is crazy,  since modern hunters are allowed magazines and scopes which are clearly a much bigger advantage then a full proof ignition.   Then there is a small group of muzzleloader hunters, who probably are mainly traditionalist, who just don't like the fact that somebody  is using a superior weapon.  I spent much of my youth hunting with a recurve, full well knowing that my chances at success would be much better with a compound, but I still never begrudged anyone from hunting with a compound.   I chose to hunt with a recruit because I enjoyed it, and like the challenge, but I didn't feel the need to hold others to my standard.   There are some things I definitely feel must be regulated for the good of the herd. Ariel spotting, drones, etc but if it doesn't drastically shift harvest trends To an unsustainable point, then I'm just not in favor of over regulating others.

Offline Lefty315

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #223 on: October 29, 2017, 08:00:44 AM »
I voted no. Many reasons why! One would be that it is a more consistent ignition system even in the elements thus the amount of kills would greatly increase. That takes away from the idea of the muzzle loader. Its bad enough that the muzzy guys and gals are skirting the law by putting plastic and tape over their caps.. which technically is illegal because that means the cap wasnt exposed to the elements at all times. When i think muzzle loader hunting i think like my old hawkens .50 cal with a side hammer or even older muzzle loader rifles. If you are good you can hit targets at 100 yards with a round ball. These modern inline muzzle loaders using saboted rounds and such can shoot 150-200 yards no problem. If there is no significant difference between the 209 primers and caps then why push so hard for the 209s? Doesnt make sense.

So by your thinking you would rather see possible hang fires and wounded animals?   The limitations that muzzleloader hunters have has more to do with open sights and having one shot available until they can reload.    I'm guessing with practice someone might get that done in 15-20 seconds, but most people will not.   You could make the same argument regarding compound bows versus traditional bows.   To ask the same question you did, if there isn't significant difference between 209 primers and caps then why should anyone care?   Especially other hunters....sticking together on hunting issues is more beneficial to all hunters.   Someday you may need the voice or vote of someone who hunts with a different weapon than you do.

So why does this demand they accept your position and not compel you to come their way?

It doesn't demand they accept my position.   I currently use a musket cap and wouldn't change a thing with my muzzleloader.   But I would not care if they allowed 209 primers either.   It's still a single shot muzzleloader with open sights.  It's not giving anyone a huge advantage and if it did I would be afforded the same advantage.   It's my choice to use it or not.   When I bowhunt it's with a recurve but I don't care if my neighbor uses a compound either.

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #224 on: October 29, 2017, 11:02:36 AM »
While I agree that if 209 primers were allowed it wouldn't make a huge difference if everything else stayed the same, (a potentially big if that I'll get to in a moment) you cn't argue that it won't make a difference, then argue that there will be less hang fires and less wounded deer. That argument essentially says that it will make a difference.

But the big "IF" is, IF muzzleloaders become more efficient, more people would be willing to hunt with them. That has the potential to be both bad and good. The bad would be more crowded woods during muzzleloader seasons. And muzzleloaders already have the worst seasons and least area to hunt of the weapon choices.  So it's understandable some diehards would be a little touchy about more competition in a limited season.

We've seen it with bow hunting. There is no doubt that compound bows have made it easier for many people to use a bow to harvest an animal. And it led to more people hunting with a bow and more animals harvested with a bow. Back in the 60s and early 70s before the proliferation of compounds, you didn't see a lot of people hunting with bows even though you could hunt any season you wanted. Pulling a 60# + bow and holding it for a good shot wasn't something everyone could do. and most shots were probably 25 yards or less. With compounds, I regularly read about shots being made out to 100 yards and beyond. I'm not going to tell you what I think of that. I'm just going to say that compounds made bowhunting more attractive to more hunters. Add in longer seasons, earlier season, and rut seasons and archery hunting has boomed.

If there were still just the few archery units and shorter seasons from back then, it would make for some miserable hunting now that you are stuck hunting with one weapon. But what happened was, archers got more political pull because there were more of them. Even though they were more efficient, they got more time and more area and rut hunts because they still argue that they aren't that efficient and need an advantage in time and area to be successful. In reality, archers today are every bit as efficient as a muzzy hunter.  I'd even argue that they can get off more shots than a blackpowder hunter.  About the only advantage a muzzleloader has over a bow is being able to shoot through brush without messing up your shot. I know there are guys who will take longer shots with a bow than I will take with my muzzy.

Who knows, maybe if there were more black powder hunters, there would be more and better seasons? Right now all they get is table scraps except in a few instances.
A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears. ~ Michel de Montaigne

 

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