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Author Topic: Should 209 primers be legal?  (Read 8718 times)

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #225 on: October 29, 2017, 12:13:33 PM »
While I agree that if 209 primers were allowed it wouldn't make a huge difference if everything else stayed the same, (a potentially big if that I'll get to in a moment) you cn't argue that it won't make a difference, then argue that there will be less hang fires and less wounded deer. That argument essentially says that it will make a difference.

But the big "IF" is, IF muzzleloaders become more efficient, more people would be willing to hunt with them. That has the potential to be both bad and good. The bad would be more crowded woods during muzzleloader seasons. And muzzleloaders already have the worst seasons and least area to hunt of the weapon choices.  So it's understandable some diehards would be a little touchy about more competition in a limited season.

We've seen it with bow hunting. There is no doubt that compound bows have made it easier for many people to use a bow to harvest an animal. And it led to more people hunting with a bow and more animals harvested with a bow. Back in the 60s and early 70s before the proliferation of compounds, you didn't see a lot of people hunting with bows even though you could hunt any season you wanted. Pulling a 60# + bow and holding it for a good shot wasn't something everyone could do. and most shots were probably 25 yards or less. With compounds, I regularly read about shots being made out to 100 yards and beyond. I'm not going to tell you what I think of that. I'm just going to say that compounds made bowhunting more attractive to more hunters. Add in longer seasons, earlier season, and rut seasons and archery hunting has boomed.

If there were still just the few archery units and shorter seasons from back then, it would make for some miserable hunting now that you are stuck hunting with one weapon. But what happened was, archers got more political pull because there were more of them. Even though they were more efficient, they got more time and more area and rut hunts because they still argue that they aren't that efficient and need an advantage in time and area to be successful. In reality, archers today are every bit as efficient as a muzzy hunter.  I'd even argue that they can get off more shots than a blackpowder hunter.  About the only advantage a muzzleloader has over a bow is being able to shoot through brush without messing up your shot. I know there are guys who will take longer shots with a bow than I will take with my muzzy.

Who knows, maybe if there were more black powder hunters, there would be more and better seasons? Right now all they get is table scraps except in a few instances.

Yep, my compound is much more effective than my muzzleloader that can shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100yds, has dropped almost every animal its shot in its tracks with one shot, and in my hands has a range of 125yds.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 12:19:05 PM by Jellymon »

Offline Twang

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #226 on: November 02, 2017, 09:40:22 AM »
It is a skill that takes effort to keep yer powder dry and your ignition ready.  Part of what I love about the sport. Learn To be proficient with your weapon. 
What is next, brass cartridges with black powder.  Do you get it??  Go modern and leave me be!

Offline Biggerhammer

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #227 on: November 12, 2017, 01:54:02 PM »
Puuuuuuft! I went with "Yes" on the survey.
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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #228 on: November 12, 2017, 03:08:11 PM »
It is a skill that takes effort to keep yer powder dry and your ignition ready.  Part of what I love about the sport. Learn To be proficient with your weapon. 
What is next, brass cartridges with black powder.  Do you get it??  Go modern and leave me be!

The great thing is that you would still be able to use musket caps, flint, or whatever else option there is. 209 just gives guys another option and you still gotta keep that powder dry. I vote yes for 209

Offline Brushcrawler

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #229 on: December 22, 2017, 03:13:35 PM »
Anybody know if they have discussed this yet?
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Offline Calvin Rayborn

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #230 on: December 28, 2017, 08:57:07 PM »
United States Musket Caps all the way!!!

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #231 on: December 29, 2017, 07:50:05 AM »
United States Musket Caps all the way!!!

Might want to check that - most US manufactures have gone back to producing musket caps with only a re-enactment charge in them.  They are not as hot as they once were.

You might check and make sure you have the multiple use musket caps
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline GoexBlackhorn

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #232 on: December 29, 2017, 10:59:23 AM »
OMG!
There are folks here against 209 ignition?
Please naysayers, get back into that outhouse then. Cut the electricity line and buy more candles.

New-age sure-fire technology over weak ignition systems any day and twice on Sunday.

Offline Jonathan_S

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #233 on: December 29, 2017, 12:46:57 PM »
OMG!
There are folks here against 209 ignition?
Please naysayers, get back into that outhouse then. Cut the electricity line and buy more candles.

New-age sure-fire technology over weak ignition systems any day and twice on Sunday.

The point many of us are trying to articulate and which you are skipping over in your insult is that change begets change. Also and unfortunately, change by the WDFW is rarely a positive thing for us.

I’d never call my setup a weak ignition system either  :twocents:
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Offline GoexBlackhorn

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #234 on: December 30, 2017, 07:03:48 PM »
You may not call it weak. But those that have seen the advantages of 209 ignition systems sure call it weak.

Your state-game regulators field call all the time and many are complaints. Then when the complaints start sounding the same over & over & over, they begin to take surveys, begin to folder those same complaints - then begin to have meetings on those same complaints..

Then they begin to address how to fix those complaints. So what you have in Washington is irate hunters who want a better ignition system implemented.

If you like yours, then keep it. You obviously haven't been stung yet - meaning your ML hasn't failed to fire the powder, with an 8-pt buck standing 20 yards in front of you.

I hope your luck continues. But never tell those who were stung that their ignition source wasn't the problem - wasn't the reason why their gun didn't go bang.

If you do, then hopefully they don't punch you in the noggin for telling them it was their fault -- when in truth, it was the State Of Washington's fault for being behind the times.

Offline Duckslayer89

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #235 on: December 30, 2017, 07:14:19 PM »
You may not call it weak. But those that have seen the advantages of 209 ignition systems sure call it weak.

Your state-game regulators field call all the time and many are complaints. Then when the complaints start sounding the same over & over & over, they begin to take surveys, begin to folder those same complaints - then begin to have meetings on those same complaints..

Then they begin to address how to fix those complaints. So what you have in Washington is irate hunters who want a better ignition system implemented.

If you like yours, then keep it. You obviously haven't been stung yet - meaning your ML hasn't failed to fire the powder, with an 8-pt buck standing 20 yards in front of you.

I hope your luck continues. But never tell those who were stung that their ignition source wasn't the problem - wasn't the reason why their gun didn't go bang.

If you do, then hopefully they don't punch you in the noggin for telling them it was their fault -- when in truth, it was the State Of Washington's fault for being behind the times.

Not to mention dangerous hangfires that could wound animals and send bullets where they weren't intended. I remember reading a thread a while ago about a guy shooting the antler off his buck then killing it later with a hangfire. Luckily he didn't wound it

Offline hunter399

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #236 on: December 30, 2017, 07:44:10 PM »
What I don't get is you choose a primitive weapon,to hunt with,then u wanna complain about it,something that was your own choice to begin with.I say go for it add 209 primers then go ahead and add scopes to muzzle loaders,then just add your season to modern firearm,cause keep complaining and that's what you might get . :twocents:
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #237 on: December 30, 2017, 07:50:33 PM »
What I don't get is you choose a primitive weapon,to hunt with,then u wanna complain about it,something that was your own choice to begin with.I say go for it add 209 primers then go ahead and add scopes to muzzle loaders,then just add your season to modern firearm,cause keep complaining and that's what you might get . :twocents:

It is not a primitive weapons season it is a short range weapon season!  Primitive ML's are not required.  The State makes requirements to limit the ability of the ML to a true short range rifle.

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Online JimmyHoffa

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #238 on: December 30, 2017, 07:58:59 PM »
You may not call it weak. But those that have seen the advantages of 209 ignition systems sure call it weak.

Your state-game regulators field call all the time and many are complaints. Then when the complaints start sounding the same over & over & over, they begin to take surveys, begin to folder those same complaints - then begin to have meetings on those same complaints..

Then they begin to address how to fix those complaints. So what you have in Washington is irate hunters who want a better ignition system implemented.

If you like yours, then keep it. You obviously haven't been stung yet - meaning your ML hasn't failed to fire the powder, with an 8-pt buck standing 20 yards in front of you.

I hope your luck continues. But never tell those who were stung that their ignition source wasn't the problem - wasn't the reason why their gun didn't go bang.

If you do, then hopefully they don't punch you in the noggin for telling them it was their fault -- when in truth, it was the State Of Washington's fault for being behind the times.

Not to mention dangerous hangfires that could wound animals and send bullets where they weren't intended. I remember reading a thread a while ago about a guy shooting the antler off his buck then killing it later with a hangfire. Luckily he didn't wound it
If wounding is the concern, then scopes should be allowed.  But then that leads to maybe it should all go modern for all the seasons and let each hunter pick their own weapon.

Offline hunter399

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #239 on: December 30, 2017, 08:26:54 PM »
Ya a lot of people that do use primitive ,long bows,traditional muzzle loaders will complain,then we all lose some season to give them a season. :twocents:
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #240 on: December 30, 2017, 08:27:05 PM »
What I don't get is you choose a primitive weapon,to hunt with,then u wanna complain about it,something that was your own choice to begin with.I say go for it add 209 primers then go ahead and add scopes to muzzle loaders,then just add your season to modern firearm,cause keep complaining and that's what you might get . :twocents:

It is not a primitive weapons season it is a short range weapon season!  Primitive ML's are not required.  The State makes requirements to limit the ability of the ML to a true short range rifle.

The State's rules for muzzleloaders have nothing to do with range. Has everything to do with using modern contrivances to make them more efficient or accurate.
A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears. ~ Michel de Montaigne

Offline hunter399

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #241 on: December 30, 2017, 08:29:24 PM »
What I don't get is you choose a primitive weapon,to hunt with,then u wanna complain about it,something that was your own choice to begin with.I say go for it add 209 primers then go ahead and add scopes to muzzle loaders,then just add your season to modern firearm,cause keep complaining and that's what you might get . :twocents:

It is not a primitive weapons season it is a short range weapon season!  Primitive ML's are not required.  The State makes requirements to limit the ability of the ML to a true short range rifle.

The State's rules for muzzleloaders have nothing to do with range. Has everything to do with using modern contrivances to make them more efficient or accurate.

I was thinking the same thing,you can shoot 200-250 yards with a peep or open site.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #242 on: December 30, 2017, 08:38:37 PM »

Not to mention dangerous hangfires that could wound animals and send bullets where they weren't intended. I remember reading a thread a while ago about a guy shooting the antler off his buck then killing it later with a hangfire. Luckily he didn't wound it

Hangfires are generally caused by damp powder that doesn't want to ignite, not your cap. This is caused by either getting water down your barrel or nipple, or more common in wet western Washington, from condensation. Powder is like salt, it draws moisture. Just like the salt in your salt shaker. Don't touch your muzzleloader off at the end of the day and leave the powder in and bring it into the warm house then take it out into the cold damp/wet air and it naturally forms water. The heated barrel adds to it. Also carrying your gun in the warm car and jumping out into the cold wet air many times a day does the same thing. Always touch your gun off at the end of the day and use fresh powder the next day.
A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears. ~ Michel de Montaigne

Online JimmyHoffa

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #243 on: December 30, 2017, 08:39:11 PM »
209 primers are legal to use as long as in the modern season.  Same as scopes.  We can grab a muzzleloader with scope and 209, or even two barrels capped and loaded and hunt with them.  That doesn't change.  It is the allowance of using the new tech in the muzzleloader only season where those things can't be used.

Offline Jonathan_S

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #244 on: December 31, 2017, 05:02:56 PM »
You may not call it weak. But those that have seen the advantages of 209 ignition systems sure call it weak.

Your state-game regulators field call all the time and many are complaints. Then when the complaints start sounding the same over & over & over, they begin to take surveys, begin to folder those same complaints - then begin to have meetings on those same complaints..

Then they begin to address how to fix those complaints. So what you have in Washington is irate hunters who want a better ignition system implemented.

If you like yours, then keep it. You obviously haven't been stung yet - meaning your ML hasn't failed to fire the powder, with an 8-pt buck standing 20 yards in front of you.

I hope your luck continues. But never tell those who were stung that their ignition source wasn't the problem - wasn't the reason why their gun didn't go bang.

If you do, then hopefully they don't punch you in the noggin for telling them it was their fault -- when in truth, it was the State Of Washington's fault for being behind the times.

The awesome thing that western States have that many Eastern states don’t have is bottle-necked cartridge seasons. Our ML seasons are not implemented forcefully because we are cramming dozens of hunters per square mile of farmland.

The biggest reason I’m agains it is because its easy to see what’s next...BH209, scopes, enclosed ignition systems etc. what’s the point? If somebody is dead set on using that then hunt the modern season, there is better dates anyway

I’ve had misfires yes but that doesn’t make it weak. Limitation sure.
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #245 on: December 31, 2017, 05:14:52 PM »
Just saw this topic, I was too late to vote.
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Online Dan-o

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #246 on: December 31, 2017, 05:24:13 PM »
I say leave the rules alone. 

Enough technology creep has already occurred.

If you are careful and proficient, you can avoid misfires.   
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Offline AWS

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #247 on: December 31, 2017, 07:30:12 PM »
First concerning archery season, archery season is archery season and the progression of improvements is just that a  progression of improvements, there is no president to the improvements.

Muzzle loader season was meant to be primitive season.  All the improvements to the muzzle loaded were made 100+ years ago and we call it modern deer season.  Muzzle loader season was meant for some hunters to experience harvesting game with the weapons of our early forefathers.  All the improvements we are adding to the mix is just dumbing down the season so it is easier for more to be successful.  If we keep adding improvements we will be very close to being just a Single Shot Modern season and we might as well just allow Ruger #1's, H&R Toppers and Browning Highwalls.
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Offline Special T

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #248 on: January 01, 2018, 08:31:16 AM »
Yes!

If you hunt muzzy and don't like 209 then don't use them.

If you don't hunt muzzy then why do you care what I use? If it makes it more "modern" then stop rifle hunting and switch to muzzy.

I don't archery hunt, but why would I vote no to lighted knocks and expandable broad heads? If you want to use them then go for it. If you don't then don't. Why would I care what you use as long as its not illegal?
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Offline Special T

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #249 on: January 01, 2018, 08:34:06 AM »
Before I went to Virginia in 2012 I would have voted no.  I voted yes.  I've never been to a state that pits it's user groups against each other like this state does.  Pretty sad really, pit each user group against each other and cram everyone into certain GMUs, so more over crowding goes on.  Amazing.
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