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Author Topic: Should 209 primers be legal?  (Read 4051 times)

Online Bob33

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #75 on: October 05, 2017, 09:41:17 AM »
The terms “primitive” and “modern” are not necessarily two distinct points 180 degrees apart. There’s a continuous spectrum with many points between. A scoped inline muzzleloader with 209 primers is probably every bit as or more effective than an iron-sighted 30-30 lever action.

Technology has progressed in all three hunting methods: modern, muzzleloader, and archery. A case could be made that of the three muzzleloaders have progressed slower than the other two in recent years.

Where the line is drawn to limit technological advances will always be debatable.

I do think it’s important to recognize that WDFW sets season dates and lengths based on anticipated harvests, and attempts to balance opportunity and harvest between the three methods.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline ctwiggs1

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #76 on: October 05, 2017, 09:42:45 AM »
The terms “primitive” and “modern” are not necessarily two distinct points 180 degrees apart. There’s a continuous spectrum with many points between. A scoped inline muzzleloader with 209 primers is probably every bit as or more effective than an iron-sighted 30-30 lever action.

Technology has progressed in all three hunting methods: modern, muzzleloader, and archery. A case could be made that of the three muzzleloaders have progressed slower than the other two in recent years.

Where the line is drawn to limit technological advances will always be debatable.

I do think it’s important to recognize that WDFW sets season dates and lengths based on anticipated harvests, and attempts to balance opportunity and harvest between the three methods.

Every time I read your posts I feel that your Zebra is staring into my soul. :yike:

Offline Fl0und3rz

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2017, 09:44:13 AM »
So if 209 primers are no more successful or reliable than musket caps and are also, paraphrasing,  "exposed to the elements" and subject to moisture like musket caps, what then is the reason to preclude them for legit muzzleloader weapons?

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2017, 09:47:48 AM »
@sabotloader

Mike - I'm not as well versed as others but the term "modern" seems to be used pretty loosely here.  I mean the Henry rifle was produced 160 years ago and it would be considered a modern firearm.

Curtis

Curtis - I know exactly what you mean!  One of the things that we need to remember or think about Traditionalists and Archers are very well organized and make their presence and wishes known in the right places.  On the other hand we the regular shooters hunters - really including the bulk of the modern day rifle hunters - WE are not organized and do not offer a united front.  I compare us to the farmers of America - do you know how strong and powerful they could be it they were truly organized and united.  The problem is as with us a lot of the time, how do you tell a group of independent strong willed farmers - this is the way we are going to do it because that is the way we want you to do it!!

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2017, 09:51:54 AM »
The terms “primitive” and “modern” are not necessarily two distinct points 180 degrees apart. There’s a continuous spectrum with many points between. A scoped inline muzzleloader with 209 primers is probably every bit as or more effective than an iron-sighted 30-30 lever action.

Not necessarily true!!!  I can get a lot of extra shots with a 30-30, actually even many more than a normal modern bolt action rifle. With a modern ML I still only get normally one good shot!  And you know what I still way prefer the ML.

Quote
Technology has progressed in all three hunting methods: modern, muzzleloader, and archery. A case could be made that of the three muzzleloaders have progressed slower than the other two in recent years.

Where the line is drawn to limit technological advances will always be debatable.

I do think it’s important to recognize that WDFW sets season dates and lengths based on anticipated harvests, and attempts to balance opportunity and harvest between the three methods.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 10:14:02 AM by Sabotloader »
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Online Bob33

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #80 on: October 05, 2017, 09:53:06 AM »
The terms “primitive” and “modern” are not necessarily two distinct points 180 degrees apart. There’s a continuous spectrum with many points between. A scoped inline muzzleloader with 209 primers is probably every bit as or more effective than an iron-sighted 30-30 lever action.

Technology has progressed in all three hunting methods: modern, muzzleloader, and archery. A case could be made that of the three muzzleloaders have progressed slower than the other two in recent years.

Where the line is drawn to limit technological advances will always be debatable.

I do think it’s important to recognize that WDFW sets season dates and lengths based on anticipated harvests, and attempts to balance opportunity and harvest between the three methods.

Every time I read your posts I feel that your Zebra is staring into my soul. :yike:
It is, but I won't post what is sees. :chuckle:
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #81 on: October 05, 2017, 10:21:57 AM »
No

Offline Machias

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #82 on: October 05, 2017, 10:55:26 AM »
Before I went to Virginia in 2012 I would have voted no.  I voted yes.  I've never been to a state that pits it's user groups against each other like this state does.  Pretty sad really, pit each user group against each other and cram everyone into certain GMUs, so more over crowding goes on.  Amazing.
Fred Moyer


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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #83 on: October 05, 2017, 11:00:52 AM »
 :yeah: That's why I voted yes. I have no dog in this fight - don't hunt or own an ML.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Jonathan_S

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2017, 11:42:05 AM »
nope
“Kindly do not attempt to cloud the issue with too many facts.”

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2017, 11:44:39 AM »
Nope
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Offline The100Road

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2017, 12:08:59 PM »
Yes!

If you hunt muzzy and don't like 209 then don't use them.

If you don't hunt muzzy then why do you care what I use? If it makes it more "modern" then stop rifle hunting and switch to muzzy.

I don't archery hunt, but why would I vote no to lighted knocks and expandable broad heads? If you want to use them then go for it. If you don't then don't. Why would I care what you use as long as its not illegal?

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2017, 12:15:36 PM »
Yes!

If you hunt muzzy and don't like 209 then don't use them.

If you don't hunt muzzy then why do you care what I use? If it makes it more "modern" then stop rifle hunting and switch to muzzy.

I don't archery hunt, but why would I vote no to lighted knocks and expandable broad heads? If you want to use them then go for it. If you don't then don't. Why would I care what you use as long as its not illegal?

The reason for the discussion being opened up is because if a change in equipment affects harvest rate then the way that WDFW will address that is by changing the Season length.  I personally think the longer ML Season is worth having to deal w/caps instead of primers being allowed.  If you think allowing 209s will not have any affect on ML Season length or you think a more reliable ignition is a fair tradeoff for having a shorter ML Season then you probably will be for the allowance of 209 primers. 

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2017, 12:38:57 PM »
Yes!

If you hunt muzzy and don't like 209 then don't use them.

If you don't hunt muzzy then why do you care what I use? If it makes it more "modern" then stop rifle hunting and switch to muzzy.

I don't archery hunt, but why would I vote no to lighted knocks and expandable broad heads? If you want to use them then go for it. If you don't then don't. Why would I care what you use as long as its not illegal?
I don't think it is about being a muzzy hunter or a bowhunter.  If muzzy is someone's it thing, they have a few seasons to use it in (early muzz, modern, late muzz, bear, cougar).  There are a few guys that do go after bear with muzzy because they like using muzzy.  Mostly, it seems like trying to get as close to having a 'modern' weapon outside of the 'modern' season especially in an optimally timed season.  Basically trying to use a rifle ahead of the rifle guys.  If modern had an Oct 1-7 option for elk, how many muzzies would still be out in the woods?  If modern was Sept 15-30, what percent of current bowhunters would be switching to a rifle?

Offline WSU

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #89 on: October 05, 2017, 12:54:40 PM »
The limiting factor for a muzzy is a single shot and open sites.  Keeping your powder dry is a pain and a 209 might be more reliable (I don't know, never used them), but I've never had ignition problems with No. 11 or musket caps.  Keep your powder dry and the gun goes boom every time.   :twocents:

Offline BENCHLEG

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #90 on: October 05, 2017, 01:10:51 PM »
No for me!!

Offline superdown

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #91 on: October 05, 2017, 01:27:00 PM »
I hunt all three season off and on and have been successful in all three.I voted yes because i would like to have less cleanup and would like more options as far as muzzle loaders go i know i only need one but who here only has one style of each gun? A coupe of years ago hunting muzzy season i fired 5 caps off at a deer and did not get it. I went back to camp cleaned the nipple and it went off fine a piece of fuzz/lint or something was in the nipple. I got my deer the next day. Would a 209 have fired through the obstruction? I don't know and honestly don't care I will continue to muzzy hunt regardless whether they allow 209's or not. A person is only as accurate as they are with a weapon that has open sights.The ignition system is irrelevant to the marksmanship one possesses or how many shot opportunities you get you still have to hunt and get yourself on animals.   

Offline elkboy

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #92 on: October 05, 2017, 01:34:27 PM »
So, for all you smoke pole guys, how often do you have a filed ignition, one that a 209 primer would have prevented, and while attempting a shot at an animal?  And how often did it cause you to not get a shot off ie: weren't able to re- cap in time for a second chance? (I'm not a muzzy guy so please bare with me on the lingo)
Are mis-fires a real issue for you?
Maybe a poll of our own is necessary.  I'm just curious if adding these primers will actually cause an increase in the amount of game taken, or if it's just a luxury that would make things easier and more reliable.

Good question! It's happened to me on three different animals, twice with a Knight Bighorn, and once with a Knight Mountaineer.  I am personally OK with this as an additional limitation on my chosen hunting method.  I understand the argument that a modern inline isn't very "primitive" or "traditional", but I believe we do have to draw the line somewhere. 

Online Russ McDonald

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #93 on: October 05, 2017, 01:57:31 PM »
So I got curious and started looking at other states.  In the west it seems like it is WA and Idaho that are the only ones that don't allow 209 primers during muzzle loader season only in the western states.  I did see some states don't allow pellets and a lot of open sights only.  I didn't have time to go through all 50 states but I did some random ones here and there and I see that almost all allowed 209 primers during ML only season.  So for the one that say no to 209 primers is it just because of season length.  I agree with I think Machias that said it is pretty bad that all of us as hunters are split and pitted against each other.  I like learning all methods of hunting and enjoy aspects of them all.  I know as an archery hunter we do get a pretty good dates for elk season but I don't mind changes to allow for others to get in on a better part of the season for the method.  I think ML season pretty much stinks one week.  I said 3 years ago a wrote the game department.  I even talked to the manager of game management back then and asked them why can't we at least give each method at least 2 weekends for their seasons.  I have the chance to talk to the manager who put out the survey.  The NWTF is working with the department to rewrite the turkey plan.  He is willing to listen and make some changes that will benefit us all as hunters. 
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Offline Stein

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #94 on: October 05, 2017, 02:00:35 PM »
I don't see it as hunters pitted against each other.  The state reached out to see what we think and we are having an open discussion.  It doesn't seem too realistic for hunters to agree on 100% of the things 100% of the time.  Nothing wrong with a good discussion in my book.

Offline r67968

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #95 on: October 05, 2017, 02:09:47 PM »
Its a No for me. It takes work to dial everything in, but i have found muzzleloaders can be extremely reliable with caps even in wet weather.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #96 on: October 05, 2017, 02:13:34 PM »
So I got curious and started looking at other states.  In the west it seems like it is WA and Idaho that are the only ones that don't allow 209 primers during muzzle loader season only in the western states.

Think you need to add in Oregon.  It is a Pacific Northwest thing...

Quote
  I did see some states don't allow pellets and a lot of open sights only.  I didn't have time to go through all 50 states but I did some random ones here and there and I see that almost all allowed 209 primers during ML only season.  So for the one that say no to 209 primers is it just because of season length.  I agree with I think Machias that said it is pretty bad that all of us as hunters are split and pitted against each other.  I like learning all methods of hunting and enjoy aspects of them all.  I know as an archery hunter we do get a pretty good dates for elk season but I don't mind changes to allow for others to get in on a better part of the season for the method.  I think ML season pretty much stinks one week.  I said 3 years ago a wrote the game department.  I even talked to the manager of game management back then and asked them why can't we at least give each method at least 2 weekends for their seasons.  I have the chance to talk to the manager who put out the survey.  The NWTF is working with the department to rewrite the turkey plan.  He is willing to listen and make some changes that will benefit us all as hunters.
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Online Russ McDonald

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #97 on: October 05, 2017, 02:24:42 PM »
 If ML season had better dates would all of you the voted no would you change your vote?  Using this yearsc alendar say early  elk ML seaon  10/7-10/15.
So I got curious and started looking at other states.  In the west it seems like it is WA and Idaho that are the only ones that don't allow 209 primers during muzzle loader season only in the western states.

Think you need to add in Oregon.  It is a Pacific Northwest thing...

Quote
I see it now.  Didn't see it because they used center fire primer instead of 209  :chuckle:
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Offline jagermiester

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #98 on: October 05, 2017, 02:51:18 PM »
Yes for me. I watched my dad miss an opportunity at a cow.
For a guy like him it's a no brainer he needs every advantage he can get. Or take a young hunter let's not handicap them. If you don't want to use a 209 don't if you want to use flintlok do it but why restrict people who want to use it. I'm thinking about going back to iron sights during modern for deer. I've also thought about using a crossbow just for the challenge. But my kid's aren't there yet they are focused on success. Same as all of us were when we first started. Now it doesn't seem as important.
 A 209 ignition is more reliable let the people who want to use it do so. That's what I say.
Lead em if they're running.

Offline Machias

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2017, 03:05:51 PM »
I don't see it as hunters pitted against each other.  The state reached out to see what we think and we are having an open discussion.  It doesn't seem too realistic for hunters to agree on 100% of the things 100% of the time.  Nothing wrong with a good discussion in my book.

This survey is not pitting us against each other, the state has already done that with creating the choose your weapons requirement.  You don't have this fighting in the vast majority of states, because modern firearms guys are not jealous of the long season the bowhunters have, because if they wanted to bowhunt they could.  We on the other hand are jealous if the archery hunters get an extra day or if the muzzle loaders dates are in a more prime time, because we are all fighting for days in the field and the "enemy" is the other user groups.  In other states they could care less if you hunt with a lighted sight on your bow with mechanical heads, shooting lazers out of the nock.  They don't care if you have a scoped crossbow in archery season.  They could care less if you have a scoped, inline muzzleloader, shooting 209 primers.  None of the hunters fight like we do, because if you don't want to use that equipment then you don't.  If you do, great.  I was a big proponent, for a long time, of no electronics on the bow or arrow.  After living there and realizing what other guys were using had ZERO impact on me, I stopped worrying about.  I personally don't like lighted nocks, so I didn't use them.  Despised crossbows during the archery season, then went to a state that allowed them, so I tried them.  Hunted for 2 weeks with a crossbow and hated it.  Sold it and went back to a compound bow.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 03:12:13 PM by Machias »
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