collapse

Author Topic: Should 209 primers be legal?  (Read 12157 times)

Online pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 27146
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2017, 10:47:45 AM »
The only reason they're considering it in the first place is because it doesn't present a possible major change which would noticeably increase the success rate. We're both saying basically the same thing.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Online blackveltbowhunter

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Frontiersman
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2017, 11:02:18 AM »
I understand. But the discussion was heading toward allowing anything that could be classified as a "muzzleloader" to include scoped optics.  Do we also allow smokeless powder as long as its loaded from the muzzle? If that were the case I am sure that would open a whole new realm of technology.

Deacons analogy is off IMO, Although not old or cavemanish, during "Primitive" seasons we are choosing to use a hammer vs a pneumatic air nailer. Even though we have options to use a Titanium Stilleto, or a appropriately shaped rock.

Online pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 27146
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2017, 11:45:13 AM »
I understand. But the discussion was heading toward allowing anything that could be classified as a "muzzleloader" to include scoped optics.  Do we also allow smokeless powder as long as its loaded from the muzzle? If that were the case I am sure that would open a whole new realm of technology.

Deacons analogy is off IMO, Although not old or cavemanish, during "Primitive" seasons we are choosing to use a hammer vs a pneumatic air nailer. Even though we have options to use a Titanium Stilleto, or a appropriately shaped rock.

Nope, just with regards to the 209 primers.  :tup:
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline The Deacon

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Pilgrim
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Cathlamet
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2017, 11:45:45 AM »
The "realm of technology" is already open. It's already here -

Two-O-Nine (209) primers would not necessarily make muzzleloaders more efficient, and there's a debate as to whether or not they'd actually make them more reliable. Much, as most shooters know, depends on the person pulling the trigger -

As for the scope/no scope debate - How do you explain a single GMU offering both a muzzleloader season (no scopes) AND a modern rifle season (scopes permitted)? What's the difference there? Increased harvest by muzzleloader users simply due to the addition of a scope? Which would be preferred? Or, better, be more ethical - Muzzleloaders with open sights being used at 150 yards in a Kentucky Windage type fashion - or precise bullet placement at the same distance, thanks, in part, to the use of a glass-filled optical device?

Primitive? Petition the WDFW to allow only sidekick percussion or flintlock muzzleloaders filled with traditional black powder and patched roundball or conicals. Modern muzzleloaders? Two-O-Nine primers, saboted bullets, pelletized powder, AND scopes permitted. Individuals can choose the muzzleloading style they wish. Why hover, noncommittal, somewhere in the middle?

Truthfully? My crystal ball says 209 primers will be okayed; however, scopes will not. Perhaps never. And why no scopes? Too many hunters - HUNTERS - are selfishly against them. It's not a matter of concern for the resource, but rather a question of "How is this going to affect MY hunting?" Shorter seasons? Fewer open GMUs? Reduced opportunity? What's in it - or NOT in it - for me?

No bait. No hounds. No trapping. What's next?
Maggie, January 1994 - 5 May 2008

Offline Stein

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Posts: 3277
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2017, 12:03:16 PM »
It's pretty straight forward, if you make it easier to harvest, the seasons will be shorter.  There is no way around the math.

Scopes will absolutely do that.  Closed breaches will absolutely do that.  I don't know about 209, but very likely it won't have an impact near the other things mentioned.

Online blackveltbowhunter

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Frontiersman
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2017, 12:06:36 PM »
I don't know the GMU you refer to. But would agree, if the GMU is open to both simultaneously then it makes sense to allow scoped muzzies, during that hunt in that unit.

  The day we let technology determine ethics, is a day I would rather not see. By design the muzzy is a more difficult weapon to master and comes with self imposed limitations, the hunter should be determining what's ethical.

   You seem stuck on the term "primitive". Implying that if your not wearing buckskin thongs and carrying a bowie as backup then its not "primitive". I agree to an extent, the term is probably outdated. BUT it still denotes imposed limitations based on a weapons inherent design and/or regulations in place to handicap it.

   Everything you speak of is already legal. 209, scopes, blah blah. Its called MODERN season.

Online pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 27146
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2017, 12:52:00 PM »
Here's where we disagree. If you choose ML, you get to hunt wherever MLs are allowed, during an earlier season which has a better chance of catching the end of the rut. Just because you choose to hunt a unit which also has Modern going on doesn't mean you get to improve your chances by adding otherwise prohibited accessories. You pick ML, then you hunt by ML rules, whatever they are.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Online blackveltbowhunter

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Frontiersman
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2017, 02:07:59 PM »
I don't think we disagree at all Piano :tup:, If your last comment was aimed at me. I don't see any problem with 209, although admittedly, I don't know as much as many on here about muzzy equipment.  Some others have posted about scopes on muzzies, insinuating that scopes etc should be allowed since its not a "primitive weapon".  I would be opposed to such changes if that were the case. I understand that is not the discussion WDFW is having.

The argument that we need to stick together so all individuals are accommodated is moot IMO, since any muzzy hunter who wants to use a breech lock, 209 capped, scoped muzzy is free to do so during the modern season.

Online pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 27146
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #128 on: October 06, 2017, 02:34:41 PM »
 :tup:
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline jnordwell

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Pilgrim
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 40
  • Location: Camas Washington
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #129 on: October 06, 2017, 02:58:11 PM »
Primitive is one thing but jacketed bullets are primitive but neither is compound bows,mech broad heads, mech releases,etc... why not do what some states do offer some units as primitive only. Recurve,longbow only, and flint lock or lead ball only. When they allowed mech broad heads they didn't shorten the seasons. Would have to see how they would word it.

Offline The Deacon

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Pilgrim
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Cathlamet
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #130 on: October 06, 2017, 02:58:49 PM »
If I may repeat myself -

Truthfully? My crystal ball says 209 primers will be okayed; however, scopes will not. Perhaps never. And why no scopes? Too many hunters - HUNTERS - are selfishly against them. It's not a matter of concern for the resource, but rather a question of "How is this going to affect MY hunting?" Shorter seasons? Fewer open GMUs? Reduced opportunity? What's in it - or NOT in it - for me?

No bait. No hounds. No trapping. What's next?

It's not about "stick(ing) together so all individuals are accommodated." Such is not possible. It's about presenting a united front as consumptive users in order to (1) prevent the loss of existing hunting opportunities, and (2) hopefully expand opportunities which do not currently exist -

Will scoped muzzleloaders guarantee this loss or expansion? Absolutely not, but - again - I do wonder what will be next on the chopping block?

Maggie, January 1994 - 5 May 2008

Offline Bob33

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 17270
  • Groups: SCI, RMEF, NRA
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #131 on: October 06, 2017, 03:02:48 PM »
Washington's general season deer harvest by hunting method, from 2000 through 2016:
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline Stein

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Posts: 3277
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #132 on: October 06, 2017, 03:49:58 PM »
I do wonder what will be next on the chopping block?

What is on the chopping block now?

Offline JimmyHoffa

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2010
  • Posts: 10192
  • Location: 150 Years Too Late
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #133 on: October 06, 2017, 03:50:33 PM »
I don't know the GMU you refer to. But would agree, if the GMU is open to both simultaneously then it makes sense to allow scoped muzzies, during that hunt in that unit.

  The day we let technology determine ethics, is a day I would rather not see. By design the muzzy is a more difficult weapon to master and comes with self imposed limitations, the hunter should be determining what's ethical.

   You seem stuck on the term "primitive". Implying that if your not wearing buckskin thongs and carrying a bowie as backup then its not "primitive". I agree to an extent, the term is probably outdated. BUT it still denotes imposed limitations based on a weapons inherent design and/or regulations in place to handicap it.

   Everything you speak of is already legal. 209, scopes, blah blah. Its called MODERN season.
the high hunt allows either muzzy tag or modern tag and both could be hunting simultaneously.  One is scope/primer/tech restricted and the other is a free for all.  I've never seen any muzzies on the high hunt though.  It is about half old school deer rifles and half long range tacticool artillery pieces.

Offline Kazekurt

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Scout
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 421
  • Location: Ephrata
  • The trophy is in the hunt; the animal is a bonus!
Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #134 on: October 06, 2017, 04:06:22 PM »
I voted yes.  I have performed a couple of two hour stalks(crawls) through wet grass to get in range of a nice muley buck only to have my ignition fail.   As a person who hunts routinely with all three weapons, I will say that making this change will not increase the range of the muzzleloader, just the reliability.   I joke with my friends all the time that in some ways I prefer archery because at least I know I'm going to get something in the air.  Furthermore, there are already a lot of guys cheating the "exposed to the elements"  requirement by using tape, surgical tubing, etc. 

 

* Recent Topics

Chiwawa Quality Muzzy by buggy
[Today at 10:16:37 AM]


Full draw film tour mount Vernon 6/21 by D-Rock425
[Today at 10:16:23 AM]


Who drew by Carnivore
[Today at 10:13:41 AM]


Buck 550 Selector 2.0 Review by Alchase
[Today at 10:13:36 AM]


Wdfw drawing fiasco explanation by bearpaw
[Today at 10:12:31 AM]


Crispy Fried Duck Wings by rickychen
[Today at 10:12:22 AM]


2018 OIL's!!! by elkrack
[Today at 10:11:48 AM]


IT'S ON WDFW!!!!!! NO CONFIRMATION EMAIL!!!!!! REDRAW!!!! by BigBerthaB
[Today at 10:10:00 AM]


Idaho results by Pathfinder101
[Today at 10:08:28 AM]


Mountain View Antler-less Muzzy by BULLBLASTER
[Today at 10:07:47 AM]


Mt Spokane North A Bull Moose Tag by elkrack
[Today at 10:07:30 AM]


Halibut by jackmaster
[Today at 10:01:48 AM]


2018 Special Permits: Drawing Results by weatherbow21
[Today at 09:57:56 AM]


Washington Moose Hunters by bearpaw
[Today at 09:51:13 AM]


November in the Desert by codybear
[Today at 09:48:37 AM]


Anyone have tips for Quality 231 Mule deer Gardner unit? by Ironhead45
[Today at 09:47:59 AM]


ENTIAT!!! by johnnyaustin44
[Today at 09:45:00 AM]


Chewuch Quailty Buck by bearpaw
[Today at 09:43:30 AM]


Sheep Tag, Yahoo by elkrack
[Today at 09:33:03 AM]


Idaho Super Hunt Results by Pathfinder101
[Today at 09:31:32 AM]