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Author Topic: Should 209 primers be legal?  (Read 4228 times)

Offline Russ McDonald

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #100 on: October 05, 2017, 05:17:05 PM »
I don't see it as hunters pitted against each other.  The state reached out to see what we think and we are having an open discussion.  It doesn't seem too realistic for hunters to agree on 100% of the things 100% of the time.  Nothing wrong with a good discussion in my book.

This survey is not pitting us against each other, the state has already done that with creating the choose your weapons requirement.  You don't have this fighting in the vast majority of states, because modern firearms guys are not jealous of the long season the bowhunters have, because if they wanted to bowhunt they could.  We on the other hand are jealous if the archery hunters get an extra day or if the muzzle loaders dates are in a more prime time, because we are all fighting for days in the field and the "enemy" is the other user groups.  In other states they could care less if you hunt with a lighted sight on your bow with mechanical heads, shooting lazers out of the nock.  They don't care if you have a scoped crossbow in archery season.  They could care less if you have a scoped, inline muzzleloader, shooting 209 primers.  None of the hunters fight like we do, because if you don't want to use that equipment then you don't.  If you do, great.  I was a big proponent, for a long time, of no electronics on the bow or arrow.  After living there and realizing what other guys were using had ZERO impact on me, I stopped worrying about.  I personally don't like lighted nocks, so I didn't use them.  Despised crossbows during the archery season, then went to a state that allowed them, so I tried them.  Hunted for 2 weeks with a crossbow and hated it.  Sold it and went back to a compound bow.
Just what I wanted to say and meant :tup:

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Offline Bob33

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #101 on: October 05, 2017, 05:48:42 PM »
I don't see it as hunters pitted against each other.  The state reached out to see what we think and we are having an open discussion.  It doesn't seem too realistic for hunters to agree on 100% of the things 100% of the time.  Nothing wrong with a good discussion in my book.

This survey is not pitting us against each other, the state has already done that with creating the choose your weapons requirement.  You don't have this fighting in the vast majority of states, because modern firearms guys are not jealous of the long season the bowhunters have, because if they wanted to bowhunt they could.  We on the other hand are jealous if the archery hunters get an extra day or if the muzzle loaders dates are in a more prime time, because we are all fighting for days in the field and the "enemy" is the other user groups. In other states they could care less if you hunt with a lighted sight on your bow with mechanical heads, shooting lazers out of the nock.  They don't care if you have a scoped crossbow in archery season.  They could care less if you have a scoped, inline muzzleloader, shooting 209 primers.  None of the hunters fight like we do, because if you don't want to use that equipment then you don't.  If you do, great.  I was a big proponent, for a long time, of no electronics on the bow or arrow.  After living there and realizing what other guys were using had ZERO impact on me, I stopped worrying about.  I personally don't like lighted nocks, so I didn't use them.  Despised crossbows during the archery season, then went to a state that allowed them, so I tried them.  Hunted for 2 weeks with a crossbow and hated it.  Sold it and went back to a compound bow.
Just what I wanted to say and meant :tup:

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i know you guys seem to despite WDFW, but here are some facts on regulations in other Western states:

Idaho Muzzleloaders

 In addition, the muzzleloading rifle or musket must be:
•   Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
•   Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any electronics are prohibited.
•   Pelletized powders are prohibited.
•   Sabots are prohibited.
•   Loaded with a patched round ball or conical non-jacketed projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy.
•   209 primers are prohibited.

Idaho Archery

During an archery-only season, it is illegal for hunters to use any firearm or implement other than a longbow, compound bow or recurve bow in compliance with general archery equipment requirements, or:
•   Any bow equipped with magnifying sights.
•   Any crossbow. Except disabled hunters possessing a permit may use a crossbow. Applications for the use of crossbows by disabled hunters are available at Fish and Game offices.

Oregon Muzzleloader
•   Scopes (permanent and detachable), and sights that use batteries, artificial light or energy are not allowed during muzzleloader-only seasons
•   During muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, it is illegal to hunt with jacketed bullets, sabots, and bullets with plastic or synthetic tips or bases.
•   It is illegal to hunt with centerfire primers as an ignition source during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.
•   It is illegal to hunt with pelletized powders or propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only
•   For muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, the muzzleloader must have an open ignition.
Oregon Archery
•   No device secured to or supported by a bow may be used to maintain the bow at full draw.
•   No electronic devices may be attached to bow or arrow, except lighted arrow nocks that have no function other than to increase visibility of the arrow are allowed.

Nevada Muzzleloading
•   During a “Muzzle-loader-Only” Hunt: Only open sights or peep sights are permitted; scopes prohibited. A sight that is operated or powered by a battery, electronics or a radioactive isotope such as tritium is prohibited.

Nevada Archery
•    A crossbow cannot be used for archery only hunts.

Colorado Muzzleloading Rifles:
•   Only open or iron sights allowed in muzzleloading seasons. Fiber optics and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal. Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and electronic gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.

Colorado Archery:
•   CROSSBOWS: Illegal during archery seasons.

New Mexico Restricted Muzzleloader
•   Only black powder, Pyrodex or an equivalent substitute may be used. Smokeless powder, inline ignition, pelleted powder, sabots, belted bullets, multiple projectiles and scopes are illegal.


Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline Mallardmasher

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #102 on: October 05, 2017, 05:49:16 PM »
A survey without a signature is worthless, sorta like voting for Dancing with the stars you can vote as often as you like until Oct 31st. How is that legit
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Offline snake

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #103 on: October 05, 2017, 06:45:07 PM »
Absolutely no reason not to allow 209 primers. If you are a High and Mighty on primitive go get a Hawken. Still primitive with a 209 btw

Offline Mallardmasher

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #104 on: October 05, 2017, 07:47:11 PM »
I have always believed never endorse limitation, to each their own.
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Offline Machias

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #105 on: October 05, 2017, 07:57:57 PM »
Bob33, I don't dispise Wa Fish and Game, I save that for Liberals and Terrorist,  but I repeat myself.   I'm not happy with some of their management...er mismanagement decision, but I don't dispise them.  My point wasn't about restrictions on equipment,  if you thought that, I'm guessing you missed my whole point about not caring what equipment they allow or restrict.  My whole point, and thank you for posting Idaho's regs, is in Idaho the various user groups don't care about season lengths or equipment because everyone is not fighting for more time in the field or different dates.  They can all already participate in each of the three seasons.  Now they certainly have discussions about how far to push those restrictions, but you don't have guys bitching about season dates and length of seasons some other guy is getting, because they aren't pitted against and competing against each other.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 09:20:15 PM by Machias »
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Offline konradcountry

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #106 on: October 05, 2017, 08:07:31 PM »
Absolutely no reason not to allow 209 primers. If you are a High and Mighty on primitive go get a Hawken. Still primitive with a 209 btw

High and mighty? What about adding a laser? That was developed before 209 primers. Still primitive?

I voted no. Allowing 209 is just one step closer to getting rid of NW rules and allowing scopes. Then more people will flood the already short muzzle season.

You are the one being "high and mighty" by not considering all viewpoints. Easier equipment = more people. It really it is that simple.

Offline hunter399

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #107 on: October 05, 2017, 08:30:02 PM »
I don't see it as hunters pitted against each other.  The state reached out to see what we think and we are having an open discussion.  It doesn't seem too realistic for hunters to agree on 100% of the things 100% of the time.  Nothing wrong with a good discussion in my book.

This survey is not pitting us against each other, the state has already done that with creating the choose your weapons requirement.  You don't have this fighting in the vast majority of states, because modern firearms guys are not jealous of the long season the bowhunters have, because if they wanted to bowhunt they could.  We on the other hand are jealous if the archery hunters get an extra day or if the muzzle loaders dates are in a more prime time, because we are all fighting for days in the field and the "enemy" is the other user groups.  In other states they could care less if you hunt with a lighted sight on your bow with mechanical heads, shooting lazers out of the nock.  They don't care if you have a scoped crossbow in archery season.  They could care less if you have a scoped, inline muzzleloader, shooting 209 primers.  None of the hunters fight like we do, because if you don't want to use that equipment then you don't.  If you do, great.  I was a big proponent, for a long time, of no electronics on the bow or arrow.  After living there and realizing what other guys were using had ZERO impact on me, I stopped worrying about.  I personally don't like lighted nocks, so I didn't use them.  Despised crossbows during the archery season, then went to a state that allowed them, so I tried them.  Hunted for 2 weeks with a crossbow and hated it.  Sold it and went back to a compound bow.
A few points good points,the choose your weapon ,i can't imagine muzzy,bowhunter,trying to hunt public land in Washington with all the rifle hunters,out at the same time,or having any deer left.I'm also for choose the side of the state your hunting for deer.I'm for equipment changes in all user groups ,I do agree with the idea behind if you don't like it ,than use a different method.But I'm like most people if I don't get changes in my user group than I'm not gonna vote yes for better changes ,At this point I don't want any change in weapon restrictions.Just like the 4pt min in the NE corner a lot people complaining made it go away , now the quality of bucks,or lack of bucks is really starting to take effect,I guess what I'm sayin is sometimes people don't know what's good for them,or know what they had till it's gone.Sometimes no change is needed,if muzzy people don't like the rules there is other options ,multi season permit,or other weapon.

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #108 on: October 05, 2017, 10:35:15 PM »
Absolutely no reason not to allow 209 primers. If you are a High and Mighty on primitive go get a Hawken. Still primitive with a 209 btw

High and mighty? What about adding a laser? That was developed before 209 primers. Still primitive?

I voted no. Allowing 209 is just one step closer to getting rid of NW rules and allowing scopes. Then more people will flood the already short muzzle season.

You are the one being "high and mighty" by not considering all viewpoints. Easier equipment = more people. It really it is that simple.

Not sure about high n mighty but a 209 does not make a muzzleloader hunting easier or more effective. There are only a few wet side areas that would benefit from the intrinsic water resistance of most 209 systems. The major difficulties of hunting with a mz are one shot, slow and difficult reload, and limited range.  The 209 primer changes none of this and only adds the benefit of using different powders and pellets reliably and having a slightly better chance of ignition in the relitively small portions of the state that are very wet. The 209 type primer has been around for a long time, not sure of the full history but the shotshells of the 50s n 60s had a very similar primer design and in reality they are very similar to other primers in their constituent parts.

 I would say you are wrong in stating lasers have been around longer than the 209 type primers. Lasers started in the late 50s or early 60s in a very rudimentary form. The 209 is a refinement of existent primer design that has been around since the mid 1800s.

I cannot see the addition of 209 primers to a legal mz season would make more that a minute difference in the number of hunters or the amount of game killed. There was much less reason for mechanical broadheads being added to archery than the 209 being allowed for mz. I thought archery was supposed to be a "primitive" season as well :dunno:

Offline Damnimissed

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #109 on: October 05, 2017, 11:37:11 PM »
No, I hunt the wet side and do not want 209 primers approved. Keep it primitive.
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Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #110 on: October 05, 2017, 11:46:50 PM »
Bob33, I don't dispise Wa Fish and Game, I save that for Liberals and Terrorist,  but I repeat myself.   I'm not happy with some of their management...er mismanagement decision, but I don't dispise them.  My point wasn't about restrictions on equipment,  if you thought that, I'm guessing you missed my whole point about not caring what equipment they allow or restrict.  My whole point, and thank you for posting Idaho's regs, is in Idaho the various user groups don't care about season lengths or equipment because everyone is not fighting for more time in the field or different dates.  They can all already participate in each of the three seasons.  Now they certainly have discussions about how far to push those restrictions, but you don't have guys bitching about season dates and length of seasons some other guy is getting, because they aren't pitted against and competing against each other.
Idaho has got a ton more animals per hunter, though.  They can have all kinds of seasons before hand by different user groups and still have decent odds at a legal animal.  Some of the more elky westside units are down below 5% success.  You can drive by some pastures and see a couple hundred elk, all cows/spikes/two points.

Offline Mallardmasher

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2017, 12:33:37 AM »
If you are not shooting a Hawkins with flint, how can you make a statement, like keep it primitive, if you are shooting winged Muscat caps, sabots, anything other then BP and rifles barrels, and say I voted "no" keep it primitive. Please look in the mirror. Choose your method of modernization, and don't choose for others. To each their own
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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2017, 07:53:48 AM »
Bob33, I don't dispise Wa Fish and Game, I save that for Liberals and Terrorist,  but I repeat myself.   I'm not happy with some of their management...er mismanagement decision, but I don't dispise them.  My point wasn't about restrictions on equipment,  if you thought that, I'm guessing you missed my whole point about not caring what equipment they allow or restrict.  My whole point, and thank you for posting Idaho's regs, is in Idaho the various user groups don't care about season lengths or equipment because everyone is not fighting for more time in the field or different dates.  They can all already participate in each of the three seasons.  Now they certainly have discussions about how far to push those restrictions, but you don't have guys bitching about season dates and length of seasons some other guy is getting, because they aren't pitted against and competing against each other.
Idaho has got a ton more animals per hunter, though.  They can have all kinds of seasons before hand by different user groups and still have decent odds at a legal animal.  Some of the more elky westside units are down below 5% success.  You can drive by some pastures and see a couple hundred elk, all cows/spikes/two points.

And yet they cram us all into a few GMUs
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 09:13:45 AM by Machias »
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Offline baker5150

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #113 on: October 06, 2017, 08:32:47 AM »
If you are not shooting a Hawkins with flint, how can you make a statement, like keep it primitive, if you are shooting winged Muscat caps, sabots, anything other then BP and rifles barrels, and say I voted "no" keep it primitive. Please look in the mirror. Choose your method of modernization, and don't choose for others. To each their own

I think by "keep it primitive" they mean keep it at it's current level of primitiveness (is that a word, probably not).
From what I gather (because it's been stated multiple times already) they are more concerned with making things easier and less challenging, thus creating more hunters in the field, a good point in my opinion.


Offline Fishmaker57

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #114 on: October 06, 2017, 09:10:08 AM »
As we already are allowed to use sabots, and pelletized powder, I can't see a reason not to allow 209 primers. As for the discussion on "primitive weapon" you either go truly primitive i.e. flintlock, patch and ball, or leave it as is and add 209s.  Fewer and fewer manufactures of smoke poles are offering them without the 209 system. The topic of scopes shouldn't even be discussed, as that takes this to a whole new level.

Offline The Deacon

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #115 on: October 06, 2017, 09:47:31 AM »
Yes on 209 primers. Yes on scoped muzzleloaders. It's not a "primitive weapons" season; it's a muzzleloader season. From an ethical standpoint, why not allow hunters to use the most effective tool for the task at hand? You can use a hammer; however, you have to drive the nails with the handle. It's never made any sense (to me) -

Is there WDFW evidence to support the claim that harvest rates will (dramatically) increase resulting in GMU closures and shortened seasons, if 209 primers were allowed? Have harvest rates increased since the inclusion of pelletized powders and saboted bullets? Is there any data pertaining to how many hunters will join the ranks of the primitive weapons crowd should 209 primers be permitted?

Isn't referring to a modern inline muzzleloader as a "primitive weapon" somewhat - well - misleading?

If it's a question of technology in hunting, how can one defend the use of trail cameras? Laser rangefinders? Mechanical broadheads? Compound bows? Synthetic (black)powder? Wireless electronic predator calls?

My concerns are the (constant) wedges being driven into the ranks of today's consumptive user BY the consumptive user. Us versus Them. Us versus Them. Does anyone remember 2000 and WA trapping? Hounds? Bait?
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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #116 on: October 06, 2017, 10:01:42 AM »
Yes on 209 primers. Yes on scoped muzzleloaders. It's not a "primitive weapons" season; it's a muzzleloader season. From an ethical standpoint, why not allow hunters to use the most effective tool for the task at hand? You can use a hammer; however, you have to drive the nails with the handle. It's never made any sense (to me) -

Is there WDFW evidence to support the claim that harvest rates will (dramatically) increase resulting in GMU closures and shortened seasons, if 209 primers were allowed? Have harvest rates increased since the inclusion of pelletized powders and saboted bullets? Is there any data pertaining to how many hunters will join the ranks of the primitive weapons crowd should 209 primers be permitted?

Isn't referring to a modern inline muzzleloader as a "primitive weapon" somewhat - well - misleading?

If it's a question of technology in hunting, how can one defend the use of trail cameras? Laser rangefinders? Mechanical broadheads? Compound bows? Synthetic (black)powder? Wireless electronic predator calls?

My concerns are the (constant) wedges being driven into the ranks of today's consumptive user BY the consumptive user. Us versus Them. Us versus Them. Does anyone remember 2000 and WA trapping? Hounds? Bait?

Excellent point!
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2017, 10:13:10 AM »
Well Deacon I’m thinking you are on to something here. With all the factors removing opportunity for hunters we should be pushing to expand any opportunities we can to offset wolves, loss of habitat, climate change, social change, etc.  Even more so anything that encourages new and/or youth hunters is good. At the very least let’s let youth muzzle loaders use a scope ?  What a great way to enhance youth success rates - which are so low it really discourages new hunter participation.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2017, 10:22:53 AM »
 :yeah: It's like compound v. longbow. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. That doesn't mean another fellow hunter doesn't get to.
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Offline blackveltbowhunter

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2017, 10:34:23 AM »
Sorry. I would not support this sentiment. I don't have a problem with 209 primers however. The term "primitive" for the sake of this discussion should be viewed as "less effective". Even of the guys who hunt stick and string, very few run gut strings, or chip flint, or sand their own cedar. Sure a few do, but the vast majority still take advantage of certain luxury afforded by technology.  Certainly all of our equipment has advanced. But restrictions remain in effect to make it "less effective". I do not hunt muzzy, so will defer topics on range and effectiveness to those who are experts in that field. But based on my discussions with others and comments here 209 would not dramatically increase the performance and/or reliability to experts with inline guns.

Similar to the lighted nock and mechanical debate. Neither really help in creating additional opportunity. Those who are successful will remain so, the guy who is in the middle may see a slight increase in opportunity, and the guy who is currently unsuccessful is not likely to benefit either. There is technology that exists that certainly makes both "primitive" weapons far more effective. Those remain restricted, for good reason.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2017, 10:47:45 AM »
The only reason they're considering it in the first place is because it doesn't present a possible major change which would noticeably increase the success rate. We're both saying basically the same thing.
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Offline blackveltbowhunter

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2017, 11:02:18 AM »
I understand. But the discussion was heading toward allowing anything that could be classified as a "muzzleloader" to include scoped optics.  Do we also allow smokeless powder as long as its loaded from the muzzle? If that were the case I am sure that would open a whole new realm of technology.

Deacons analogy is off IMO, Although not old or cavemanish, during "Primitive" seasons we are choosing to use a hammer vs a pneumatic air nailer. Even though we have options to use a Titanium Stilleto, or a appropriately shaped rock.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2017, 11:45:13 AM »
I understand. But the discussion was heading toward allowing anything that could be classified as a "muzzleloader" to include scoped optics.  Do we also allow smokeless powder as long as its loaded from the muzzle? If that were the case I am sure that would open a whole new realm of technology.

Deacons analogy is off IMO, Although not old or cavemanish, during "Primitive" seasons we are choosing to use a hammer vs a pneumatic air nailer. Even though we have options to use a Titanium Stilleto, or a appropriately shaped rock.

Nope, just with regards to the 209 primers.  :tup:
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Offline The Deacon

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2017, 11:45:45 AM »
The "realm of technology" is already open. It's already here -

Two-O-Nine (209) primers would not necessarily make muzzleloaders more efficient, and there's a debate as to whether or not they'd actually make them more reliable. Much, as most shooters know, depends on the person pulling the trigger -

As for the scope/no scope debate - How do you explain a single GMU offering both a muzzleloader season (no scopes) AND a modern rifle season (scopes permitted)? What's the difference there? Increased harvest by muzzleloader users simply due to the addition of a scope? Which would be preferred? Or, better, be more ethical - Muzzleloaders with open sights being used at 150 yards in a Kentucky Windage type fashion - or precise bullet placement at the same distance, thanks, in part, to the use of a glass-filled optical device?

Primitive? Petition the WDFW to allow only sidekick percussion or flintlock muzzleloaders filled with traditional black powder and patched roundball or conicals. Modern muzzleloaders? Two-O-Nine primers, saboted bullets, pelletized powder, AND scopes permitted. Individuals can choose the muzzleloading style they wish. Why hover, noncommittal, somewhere in the middle?

Truthfully? My crystal ball says 209 primers will be okayed; however, scopes will not. Perhaps never. And why no scopes? Too many hunters - HUNTERS - are selfishly against them. It's not a matter of concern for the resource, but rather a question of "How is this going to affect MY hunting?" Shorter seasons? Fewer open GMUs? Reduced opportunity? What's in it - or NOT in it - for me?

No bait. No hounds. No trapping. What's next?
Maggie, January 1994 - 5 May 2008

Offline Stein

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Re: Should 209 primers be legal?
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2017, 12:03:16 PM »
It's pretty straight forward, if you make it easier to harvest, the seasons will be shorter.  There is no way around the math.

Scopes will absolutely do that.  Closed breaches will absolutely do that.  I don't know about 209, but very likely it won't have an impact near the other things mentioned.

 

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