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Author Topic: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer  (Read 6098 times)

Offline bigmacc

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #100 on: January 30, 2018, 10:47:00 AM »
That drives home my point. How’d your family eating hundreds of doe tags work out for WA mule deer? Good? Everything going well for em?

Back then it probably did help when some folks didn't use the doe tags, the Methow herd for example was at all time high numbers, as I've said before it hovered around 30-40k, the herd was healthy and except for some bad winters here and there the herd held its own and would bounce back strong. The herd now is less than half of what it was since the predator issue has reared its ugly head, and is continuing its tailspin while they continue to sell doe tags, so, your question of "everything going well for em?", no, the herd is in horrible shape because of lots of issues including poor management, but yes I think it helped back then and would probably help now if some of those Methow doe tags were"burnt or eatin", heck theres a really good argument for why they are even available at this time in that valley and why they have been available since the predator explosion! Cats, bear, yotes and wolves take enough does out every day not to mention vehicles so at this day and time in the Methow at least, yes I think destroying doe tags is a good idea, why they are even available is the real issue!....just answering your question to me, my :twocents:
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 10:57:36 AM by bigmacc »

Offline Gringo31

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #101 on: January 30, 2018, 11:26:47 AM »
I follow what you're saying.


If I burn half of the doe tags allotted, the decision next year may be to offer MORE!  It's the decision WDFW makes that is the issue.  You're fighting the symptom.
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
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Offline GoldenRing270

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #102 on: January 30, 2018, 12:09:32 PM »
Yep and archery mule deer doe hunters have an unlimited over the counter 2 week season. No matter what the causes are for the decline, handing out OTC doe tags is extremely counterproductive toward any type of recovery.

Offline idaho guy

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #103 on: January 30, 2018, 12:35:18 PM »
Predators kill a lot of mule deer and I would love to see hound hunting reinstated but I also feel that there is about as much chance of that happening in the next 10 years as there is of a hunt-wa member winning the lotto and distributing the money equally among all the members so that we can quit our jobs and spend the rest of our lives hunting and fishing (come on fingers crossed :chuckle:). I regret having mentioned predators in my last reply... I got distracted from the topic at hand...   

I think we need focus our attention first on taking small steps and working toward realistic goals that could be achieved within the next couple of years. Start by restricting antlerless harvest. From there I'm not sure. The odd/even wild Id every other year mule deer opportunity sounds interesting and this type of idea has a much higher probability of being implemented. I am just playing the odds and willing to make sacrifices that would help the deer.

It's a huge mistake to give up on the predator issue.  It's the one issue that supercedes them all, and as long as its not fixed the future is hopeless.  We need to have a united, passionate voice at every opportunity demanding predator reduction.  There's other issues that need addressed as well, BUT ANY PROPOSAL THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE INCREASED PREDATOR REDUCTION IS LIKE TRYING TO FIX A FLAT TIRE WITH A BANDAID.  Ungulates can only sustain so much harvest, and unless we get meaningful change it will eventually be the end of OTC hunting opportunity in this state.  :twocents: :twocents:


 :yeah: boom there is your answer. This thread is interesting in an irritating sort of way :chuckle: . I keep going back to the fights over wolves and what their effect would be on deer and elk when wolves started showing up. The members who predicted exactly this happening were ridiculed by members saying they were conspiracy theorists wearing tin foil hats. The results are here and now moose tags are being reduced and smarter hunters than me think cow moose harvest should be completely eliminated. Its admirable that you members are willing to limit and self regulate your harvest of deer to help the herd but it wont matter. Why isn't the wdfw controlling predators? Without that nothing else matters. Just some control over numbers of predators not elimination. What is so hard about acknowledging that? Maybe this is the way the other side plans to end hunting.   :dunno:     

Offline bigmacc

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #104 on: January 30, 2018, 12:48:21 PM »
I,m, not a "conspiracy" type person at all but like I said in my last post the real issue is why there are doe tags even available in some of these areas, especially places like the Methow where the herd is in such a tailspin and predator numbers are booming,  with some of this so called "management" its easy to see why people put on tin foil hats and wonder if there is an "agenda":dunno:

Offline Gringo31

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #105 on: January 30, 2018, 01:02:19 PM »
Quote
Predator populations (especially black bears and cougars) have increased
to long-term sustainable levels in Washington over the past 30 to 40 years. While the public
generally views their increase positively from an ecological perspective, managing carnivores in
the smallest state in the west with the second highest human population presents many challenges.
One of those challenges is addressing potential predator effects on prey species.
WDFW must effectively manage wildlife to meet population objectives in balance with citizen
tolerance and support.


This is from https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01657/wdfw01657.pdf

While I agree with some of it, the part I struggle with is in bold.  Is it the duty of WDFW to be the experts in their job to the best of their ability or is it management by vote of the uneducated citizen?  Two very different things....
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
-Ronald Reagan

Offline Gringo31

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #106 on: January 30, 2018, 01:09:22 PM »
I'll go on....

Quote
Management of predators to benefit prey populations will be considered when there is evidence
that predation is a significant factor inhibiting the ability of a prey population to attain
population management objectives. For example, when a prey population is below population
objective and other actions to increase prey numbers such as hunting reductions or other
actions to achieve ungulate population objectives have already been implemented, and
predation continues to be a limiting factor. In these cases, predator management actions would
be directed at individuals or populations depending on scientific evidence and would include
assessments of population levels, habitat factors, disease, etc.

In short....WDFW is willing to CONSIDER managing predators WHEN there is evidence that predation is a significant factor IF they've already taken opportunities from US (to save the prey species) AND that didn't work....THEN they'll look at removing predators....

 :yike: :bash:
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
-Ronald Reagan

Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #107 on: January 30, 2018, 09:22:23 PM »
I copy all the above. Honestly I suggested that “my” landowners not allow hunting on their place next year to see if that helps the situation. Now  there will be 500ish doe tags in the “washtucna” unit this year. Then I wonder if shooting 20 does and lowering the doe:buck ratio from 30:1 to 25:1 would even make a difference? Then I think... that’s a horrible idea. Then I think we’ll if we don’t shoot em WDFW will just come in over the winter and shoot does on “depredation” whatever. Then I think... dude are you eff’n serious, you hunt Idaho every year, you’ve researched and have points in Colorado and Wyoming and you still care at all about Washington??!!
Well I do...a little bit. I harass many people as much as possible. Someday I will stop caring,  but not today.
Have you called your district biologist to voice your concerns?
Have you attended a public meeting on season setting?
You are getting exactly what you deserve from WDFW

Offline DaveMonti

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2018, 10:19:57 PM »
I'll go on....

Quote
Management of predators to benefit prey populations will be considered when there is evidence
that predation is a significant factor inhibiting the ability of a prey population to attain
population management objectives. For example, when a prey population is below population
objective and other actions to increase prey numbers such as hunting reductions or other
actions to achieve ungulate population objectives have already been implemented, and
predation continues to be a limiting factor. In these cases, predator management actions would
be directed at individuals or populations depending on scientific evidence and would include
assessments of population levels, habitat factors, disease, etc.

In short....WDFW is willing to CONSIDER managing predators WHEN there is evidence that predation is a significant factor IF they've already taken opportunities from US (to save the prey species) AND that didn't work....THEN they'll look at removing predators....

 :yike: :bash:

Now you (not you personally Gringo) are starting to understand!  WDFW manages WILDLIFE and does not manage for high populations of game species for the benefit of hunters.  That is what they are chartered to do.  It's that simple, like it or not. 

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #109 on: January 31, 2018, 05:26:54 AM »
The Dept and commission are mandated to:
The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.

Offline Gringo31

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #110 on: January 31, 2018, 06:29:25 AM »
It's all double talk.

If prey species are struggling in number, by their own words, they remove hunting first because they know it will make a difference.  AFTER that, they may look into removing predators.

If I was 17 and could throw an egg right now.... :chuckle:
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
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Offline bigmacc

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #111 on: January 31, 2018, 11:00:48 AM »
Like I have said, "they are not the Game Department anymore they represent all wildlife including predators" and our game is not the priority that they were before the switch to WDFW was made. A lot of us remember when all our game animals(25 or so yrs ago) were priority 1, herds were managed for the sportsman, taken care of and watched over. Our family has been friends with numerous Game and Fish dept folks from Alaska, Washington, Oregon and Idaho over the years, some are alive and most have passed. The one common thread they all had was they all were avid hunters and sportsmen and they all had a passion for taking care of our fish and game for future hunting and fishing opportunities for  generations to come. They did a pretty darn good job until the changeover took place(in this state), slowly priorities started to change. I,m sure the WDFW has some good people in there in places that still think that way but now there is too many irons in the fire, too many special interest groups to cater to, its way to political and because of all this our game herds have slid way down the priority pole and other critters such as predators have moved ahead of them. I remember back in the day Game guys comming into camp to ask if any of us had a bear tag, they knew where a big one was if we wanted to go shoot a "fawn killer", yep, thats a quote! One year there was a pack of coyotes on a hillside, a Game fella pulled into camp to see if we" wanted to get some target practice in" and "save a few fawns", he drove us to the spot and about 200 yards away was a den with 5 yotes running around, we killed 3 of them. Bottom line, the Game Department took care of our game and game was top priority, who really knows their priority with the WDFW, and I mean that, who really knows, too many lies, mistrust, politics and deception. The future of our game herds doesn't look as bright as they did when they were watched over by the "real" Game Department I,m afraid.... :twocents:
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 03:49:04 PM by bigmacc »

Offline bigmacc

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #112 on: January 31, 2018, 11:20:42 AM »
One more thing and my rant will be over :tup:, I CRINGE when folks on here refer to the WDFW as the "GAME DEPARTMENT", they are not the Game department folks, far from it..... :twocents:

Offline wolfbait

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2018, 05:26:01 PM »
Predators kill a lot of mule deer and I would love to see hound hunting reinstated but I also feel that there is about as much chance of that happening in the next 10 years as there is of a hunt-wa member winning the lotto and distributing the money equally among all the members so that we can quit our jobs and spend the rest of our lives hunting and fishing (come on fingers crossed :chuckle:). I regret having mentioned predators in my last reply... I got distracted from the topic at hand...   

I think we need focus our attention first on taking small steps and working toward realistic goals that could be achieved within the next couple of years. Start by restricting antlerless harvest. From there I'm not sure. The odd/even wild Id every other year mule deer opportunity sounds interesting and this type of idea has a much higher probability of being implemented. I am just playing the odds and willing to make sacrifices that would help the deer.

It's a huge mistake to give up on the predator issue.  It's the one issue that supercedes them all, and as long as its not fixed the future is hopeless.  We need to have a united, passionate voice at every opportunity demanding predator reduction.  There's other issues that need addressed as well, BUT ANY PROPOSAL THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE INCREASED PREDATOR REDUCTION IS LIKE TRYING TO FIX A FLAT TIRE WITH A BANDAID.  Ungulates can only sustain so much harvest, and unless we get meaningful change it will eventually be the end of OTC hunting opportunity in this state.  :twocents: :twocents:


 :yeah: boom there is your answer. This thread is interesting in an irritating sort of way :chuckle: . I keep going back to the fights over wolves and what their effect would be on deer and elk when wolves started showing up. The members who predicted exactly this happening were ridiculed by members saying they were conspiracy theorists wearing tin foil hats. The results are here and now moose tags are being reduced and smarter hunters than me think cow moose harvest should be completely eliminated. Its admirable that you members are willing to limit and self regulate your harvest of deer to help the herd but it wont matter. Why isn't the wdfw controlling predators? Without that nothing else matters. Just some control over numbers of predators not elimination. What is so hard about acknowledging that? Maybe this is the way the other side plans to end hunting.   :dunno:   

 :yeah:

Wolf populations double in size each year, by WDF&wolves own admission wolves started "migrating" into WA in 2002, that's 16 years worth of wolves.


WDF&wolves control the wolf numbers.

And then there's cougars etc...

Keep cutting seasons back, won't change the outcome, just prolong. Strict predator control on the other hand will give relief to the game herds.

Too bad hunters etc. can't come together and fight against the predators that are killing off their hunting. :bash: :bash:


Offline KFhunter

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2018, 05:33:07 PM »
I'll go on....

Quote
Management of predators to benefit prey populations will be considered when there is evidence
that predation is a significant factor inhibiting the ability of a prey population to attain
population management objectives. For example, when a prey population is below population
objective and other actions to increase prey numbers such as hunting reductions or other
actions to achieve ungulate population objectives have already been implemented, and
predation continues to be a limiting factor. In these cases, predator management actions would
be directed at individuals or populations depending on scientific evidence and would include
assessments of population levels, habitat factors, disease, etc.

In short....WDFW is willing to CONSIDER managing predators WHEN there is evidence that predation is a significant factor IF they've already taken opportunities from US (to save the prey species) AND that didn't work....THEN they'll look at removing predators....

 :yike: :bash:

Now you (not you personally Gringo) are starting to understand!  WDFW manages WILDLIFE and does not manage for high populations of game species for the benefit of hunters.  That is what they are chartered to do.  It's that simple, like it or not.

All that information has to be from a study, that alone can take a long time to complete.

Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #115 on: February 05, 2018, 06:14:35 PM »
Spoke with my local bio, what a novel idea. Great 45 minute conversation, he’s certainly not the problem. It felt good to get some thoughts out there in the open and hear his thoughts and rebuttals.
Have you called your district biologist to voice your concerns?
Have you attended a public meeting on season setting?
You are getting exactly what you deserve from WDFW

Offline mfswallace

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #116 on: February 05, 2018, 07:14:22 PM »
Spoke with my local bio, what a novel idea. Great 45 minute conversation, he’s certainly not the problem. It felt good to get some thoughts out there in the open and hear his thoughts and rebuttals.

And what are the highlights? Does he see the predator pit that  washington is becoming?  Ect???
The Soady 2 Holer!!
Schevy Schooka Schit

Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #117 on: February 05, 2018, 09:51:26 PM »
It was a 45 minute discussion about the “Washtucna” unit, antlerless tags, second deer tags, harvest statistics, herd survey data, hunter survey data, hunting pressure, private land, whitetails, youth opportunity, hunter recruitment, trees (or lack there of), migrations, season timing and probably some other stuff. I don’t believe that area and those herds are overly affected by predators other than man. Long story short we decided that I shouldn’t shoot the hell outta the resident does with second deer tags where I hunt and in exchange I gave him an earful about second deer tags going to “grown ass men” instead of being given to a 10 year old on his/her first hunt...
Have you called your district biologist to voice your concerns?
Have you attended a public meeting on season setting?
You are getting exactly what you deserve from WDFW

Offline bobcat

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #118 on: February 05, 2018, 10:11:27 PM »
It was a 45 minute discussion about the “Washtucna” unit, antlerless tags, second deer tags, harvest statistics, herd survey data, hunter survey data, hunting pressure, private land, whitetails, youth opportunity, hunter recruitment, trees (or lack there of), migrations, season timing and probably some other stuff. I don’t believe that area and those herds are overly affected by predators other than man. Long story short we decided that I shouldn’t shoot the hell outta the resident does with second deer tags where I hunt and in exchange I gave him an earful about second deer tags going to “grown ass men” instead of being given to a 10 year old on his/her first hunt...

Do you realize they eliminated 500 2nd deer tags from the same areas in which the 350 Washtucna tags are being proposed? So that's a reduction of 150 2nd deer tags from 2017 to 2018.

Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #119 on: February 06, 2018, 05:55:04 AM »
You do realize they will issue 200 additional antlerless tags for muzzleloaders?
And yes, eliminated the antlerless component of the late muzzy hunt.
With much of this stuff there’s about 17 variables and standard errors associated there with, so I guess the moral of the story is have your numbers and thoughts together when you call your local representative.
And let’s be honest, we represent us but as I’ve eluded to “we” don’t show up at the public input sessions that WDFW holds throughout the state so...”we” will need to rely on our local bios to relay our local thoughts and opinions up the chain.
Have you called your district biologist to voice your concerns?
Have you attended a public meeting on season setting?
You are getting exactly what you deserve from WDFW

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #120 on: February 06, 2018, 05:58:15 AM »
What is your suggestion we do?

Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #121 on: February 06, 2018, 10:34:47 AM »
It’s not up to me what YOU do. Not sure you were even asking me...I dunno I’d say call your local biologist, attend public comment meetings and comment on the proposed game laws :dunno:
Or just complain online and not really do anything.
Have you called your district biologist to voice your concerns?
Have you attended a public meeting on season setting?
You are getting exactly what you deserve from WDFW

Offline fishwhackin

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #122 on: February 06, 2018, 10:39:32 AM »
There are a lot of good ideas in this thread and an obvious concern for the mule deer population.  It was mentioned before about the ups and downs and that couldn't be any more true and natural.  I personally think that we need to continue with the harvest as is.  We can give into the predators and "offer" our thoughts to WDFW and help maintain the same numbers we currently have or we can continue to harvest mule deer and get the numbers a little lower.  What happens when the numbers get a little lower?  Well, those wolves and cougar will have to find something else to eat and/or become ill and naturally pass on reducing their numbers where they are at a low (Lower wolf numbers would make several people happy).  When this happens, the mule deer numbers will bounce back for a few years until the predators become healthy again due to the bounty of food.  Of course we will experience good and bad years for hunting success but it will maintain itself until either WDFW takes the tags from us themselves which will do nothing if they do not have a plan already in place and being executed for the predators.  My point is:  Until WDFW implements appropriate predator management, we should never give away our permits or opportunities.  This will only increase the abundance for the predators that will thrive due to their current mismanagement and we will gain nothing.  Don't be fooled by thinking that the numbers will bounce back because of no hunting.  It will be self-defeating.

Offline huntnphool

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #123 on: February 06, 2018, 10:48:47 AM »
There are a lot of good ideas in this thread and an obvious concern for the mule deer population.  It was mentioned before about the ups and downs and that couldn't be any more true and natural.  I personally think that we need to continue with the harvest as is.  We can give into the predators and "offer" our thoughts to WDFW and help maintain the same numbers we currently have or we can continue to harvest mule deer and get the numbers a little lower.  What happens when the numbers get a little lower?  Well, those wolves and cougar will have to find something else to eat and/or become ill and naturally pass on reducing their numbers where they are at a low (Lower wolf numbers would make several people happy).  When this happens, the mule deer numbers will bounce back for a few years until the predators become healthy again due to the bounty of food.  Of course we will experience good and bad years for hunting success but it will maintain itself until either WDFW takes the tags from us themselves which will do nothing if they do not have a plan already in place and being executed for the predators.  My point is:  Until WDFW implements appropriate predator management, we should never give away our permits or opportunities.  This will only increase the abundance for the predators that will thrive due to their current mismanagement and we will gain nothing.  Don't be fooled by thinking that the numbers will bounce back because of no hunting.  It will be self-defeating.

 You have not read the wolf plan.
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline Gringo31

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #124 on: February 06, 2018, 10:55:25 AM »
One more time...

Quote
Management of predators to benefit prey populations will be considered when there is evidence
that predation is a significant factor inhibiting the ability of a prey population to attain
population management objectives. For example, when a prey population is below population
objective and other actions to increase prey numbers such as hunting reductions or other
actions to achieve ungulate population objectives have already been implemented, and
predation continues to be a limiting factor. In these cases, predator management actions would
be directed at individuals or populations depending on scientific evidence and would include
assessments of population levels, habitat factors, disease, etc.
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
-Ronald Reagan

 

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FS 4-Toyota tires and rims by MADMAX
[Yesterday at 10:53:58 PM]


Suzuki outboard comments by PolarBear
[Yesterday at 10:50:35 PM]


MOVED: Asian Water Buffalo for sale by jackelope
[Yesterday at 10:42:55 PM]


Heater for rv by MADMAX
[Yesterday at 10:36:17 PM]


Asian Water Buffalo for sale by Shooting Stix
[Yesterday at 10:21:20 PM]


Madness 10 Scoring page.......NOW to 31 march by snowshoes22
[Yesterday at 09:54:41 PM]


Any feed back on leupold vx-3i lrp 8.5-25x50mm? by tecwoody
[Yesterday at 09:43:53 PM]


FS / FT: Savage Lady Hunter .243 w/ leupold 3-9 scope by jrebel
[Yesterday at 09:33:44 PM]