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Author Topic: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer  (Read 6084 times)

Offline GoldenRing270

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2017, 07:43:34 PM »
Thanks for posting that up sitka_blacktail and good points made for sure. I agree with you about the natural ups and downs of predator prey dynamics. What is concerning though is the gradual steady population decline. We still have highs and lows in the population but the highs never quite get as high and the lows are dipping down lower and lower.

It would be impossible but very interesting to know exactly how many mule deer were killed by predators during these same years. 30,000 mule deer reported harvests between 2012 and 2016 in the 200 series gmu's. There were probably quite a bit more that never got reported. I have a hard time believing wolves and cougars could kill anywhere remotely close to that number but maybe I'd be surprised. Either way it sure seems like we hunters have taken more than our fair share out of the population over these last several years and without a doubt it has contributed to the situation we are in now.

 

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2017, 08:05:05 PM »
That's good stuff Stika_Blacktail,

If I'm reading this right, the highest doe (or is it antlerless) harvest was in 2014 at 1,366 animals.  You mentioned that this is for the 200 series GMUs, of which there are 28 GMUs?  If this is correct, that means that the average antlerless harvest per unit in 2014 was 48 antlerless per unit.

That's good data.  Now the analysis and potential results after 2, 3, 5 years?  I'd be interested to see this, making realistic assumptions where data doesn't exist.  For example, how many of the 48 antlerless deer per unit were doe?  What is the harvest rate of doe relative to the total population?  What are the rates of other causes of death that might impact the offspring of the "saved" doe? 

As I said, I realize not harvesting doe will likely result in higher future populations, but the data and the analysis will show the impact of it.  In other words, how much will the population grow in 2, 3, 5 years?  Do this for every solution and you find the solution, or a set of solutions which will have the greatest impact. 

There is a LOT to this issue, lots of potential solutions, lots of data and assumptions that will have impact on the analysis.

Yes you read it right. I got the info on the WDF&W website in the game harvest reports. I chose the totals by District and GMU because it's the easiest way to get the totals. They are totaled for each district already.

And you are correct to ask how many antlerless deer were does as some were probably towhead bucks.  And you are also correct to point out that statistically not all of those animals would have survived anyway. Statistically, some would have died from predators, some from auto accidents, and some might not have survived winter.  There ARE a lot of issues that the average Joe doesn't realize or think about that the bios have to consider. I wouldn't want their job as you just can't please everyone. But I am glad they are doing it. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears. ~ Michel de Montaigne

Offline Bows4huntn

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2017, 08:10:28 AM »
Really Goldenring?  You have a hard time believing predators could have killed 30,000 animals over a 5 year period? A common number I hear for Cougar is they take an average of 1 deer every week. That's 52 a year I believe,so for 5 years just one cougar would take 250 animals. Multiply that by the number of Cougars in these units then add on the kills from Wolves,Bears, and Coyotes and 30,000 seems like it might be a little on the low side.

Offline Gringo31

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2017, 08:19:30 AM »
Last number I heard a few years ago was that the cougar population in our state was estimated at 4000.
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
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Offline baldopepper

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2017, 09:12:43 AM »
One thing I discovered this weekend.  I'm not sure the whitetail, any buck hunt in the NE corner is a good thing for the mule deer up there.  I mentioned in another thread that we'd already found one dead mule deer buck, shot and left on the opening weekend and over this last weekend there was a lot of shooting around the house and I know that there have been a ton of small mulie bucks hanging around the road. I'm a little suspicious about all that shooting.  Went thru the checking station at Miles Creston Rd and Hwy 2 yesterday and mentioned to the warden that I thought it was a problem and he agreed.  Said they already knew of 5 mule shot in the area and had actually had hunters try to bring two more thru the checking station.  If they know of that many, I can't help but wonder how many more were shot and left.  Ton of road hunters out on Hwy 25 this weekend.  I'm seriously starting to think you should have to pass a test showing you really do know the difference between a mule deer and a white tail. (could be set up online easily). I've stopped two different groups on the road near my house that were glassing mulies that asked me when I stopped what kind of deer they were.  I just hope they're not shooting first and identifying after.

Offline GoldenRing270

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2017, 04:14:17 PM »
Predators kill a lot of mule deer and I would love to see hound hunting reinstated but I also feel that there is about as much chance of that happening in the next 10 years as there is of a hunt-wa member winning the lotto and distributing the money equally among all the members so that we can quit our jobs and spend the rest of our lives hunting and fishing (come on fingers crossed :chuckle:). I regret having mentioned predators in my last reply... I got distracted from the topic at hand...   

I think we need focus our attention first on taking small steps and working toward realistic goals that could be achieved within the next couple of years. Start by restricting antlerless harvest. From there I'm not sure. The odd/even wild Id every other year mule deer opportunity sounds interesting and this type of idea has a much higher probability of being implemented. I am just playing the odds and willing to make sacrifices that would help the deer.

Offline Humptulips

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2017, 05:14:48 PM »
Last number I heard a few years ago was that the cougar population in our state was estimated guessed at 4000.

I have not seen much that indicates the numbers on cougar are very precise. I believe they are much higher.
Only about 40% of Cougar Management Areas reach the target harvest but most of those seem to be in Eastern WA so I think an increase in the target quotas might benefit Mule Deer.
We should push for the F&W Commission to revisit increasing those quotas.
Maybe you recall they did last year and Governor Insley reversed the decision.
Bruce Vandervort

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #82 on: November 21, 2017, 09:51:59 PM »
Really Goldenring?  You have a hard time believing predators could have killed 30,000 animals over a 5 year period? A common number I hear for Cougar is they take an average of 1 deer every week. That's 52 a year I believe,so for 5 years just one cougar would take 250 animals. Multiply that by the number of Cougars in these units then add on the kills from Wolves,Bears, and Coyotes and 30,000 seems like it might be a little on the low side.
I've heard that in some places cougars will take a deer a day.  One of the biggest fawn killers on the coast has actually turned out to be bobcats.  Mostly because you can fit a bunch more in a cougar sized territory.

Offline DBLDWN

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #83 on: November 22, 2017, 08:48:20 PM »
I really liked reading Sitka Blacktails post, great info and pretty much spot on. Thank you. My suggestion would be to get rid of multi season tags, go back to weapon specific, I believe this would spread the user groups out again and get less people on the immediate winter range in the late archery season. Get rid of doe tags for any general season, make doe harvest youth, senior and disabled draw for units that need a reduction. Don't like the idea of the east side draw only for mule deer, I think they should make it a choice of east side or west side just like elk, or make it a county specific tag. As far as predators, bring back the hounds because boot hunting for cats isn't a real effective way to manage them, same for bears. As for wolves, dumbest thing WDFW could have ever done is to re introduce them and am glad the colville Indians are shooting them. As for the yakima indians the free for all needs to stop, I don't care if they shoot a deer and an elk in December to feed their families, but to shoot multiple animals off the winter range just because they can needs to stop. The deer herds at this time can't sustain it. As much as I love to hunt this state and hate to say it, but maybe the best thing for the herd is to shut it down for a couple years like someone had mentioned earlier and let the mule deer get their feet back on the ground especially in the okanogan valley. Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth

Offline mfswallace

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2017, 09:13:30 PM »
How many total deer, elk and moose do natives harvest per year?
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Offline bobcat

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2017, 09:32:04 PM »
DBLDWN- I agree with most of your post, but this never happened. Not sure why people keep saying that. 

Quote
As for wolves, dumbest thing WDFW could have ever done is to re introduce them

Offline ironhead14

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2017, 04:50:15 AM »
Let's just ban hunting altogether and let the cougars, bobcats,bears, and wolves have all the game animals.  Wait, that is what the WDFW is doing already!

Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #87 on: January 09, 2018, 08:26:20 AM »
If ya'll didn't use up your energy a few months ago:
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/
Have you called your district biologist to voice your concerns?
Have you attended a public meeting on season setting?
You are getting exactly what you deserve from WDFW

Offline huntnphool

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #88 on: January 09, 2018, 09:47:54 AM »
 :tup:
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline Rainier10

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #89 on: January 09, 2018, 01:46:10 PM »
If ya'll didn't use up your energy a few months ago:
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/
Yes, so you can still send in responses but the next big meeting will be a commission meeting where the draft rules and regulations will be presented.  There is time for public comment at that meeting.  After that meeting the rules and regs get tweaked just a little based on public comments and then there is one final meeting in April when the final draft gets presented to the commission, they approve it and miraculously 7 days later the regs are available on line and the threads start about "which store has the hard copies out?".

If there is something that you are really passionate about changing, do your research, come to the meeting with facts and a few like minded individuals.  Present your case and you never know what can happen.
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Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2018, 01:19:51 PM »
Have you called your district biologist to voice your concerns?
Have you attended a public meeting on season setting?
You are getting exactly what you deserve from WDFW

Offline fastdam

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #91 on: January 27, 2018, 12:40:31 PM »
Iím not saying itís  all the tribes fault, I believe wolves are a big problem as well. Iíve always thought if you canít beat them join them, how about we open up everything over the counter in the 300 units and we kill everything. If the Indians Donít have anything more to harvest maybe then they will come to the table with some sort of agreement. And I am not advocating poaching and Iím not all for this Iím just saying what do you think about this idea, is there any other way to get some cooperation with the tribes?








Best idea I have heard ever

Offline buglebrush

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #92 on: January 27, 2018, 01:10:09 PM »
Predators kill a lot of mule deer and I would love to see hound hunting reinstated but I also feel that there is about as much chance of that happening in the next 10 years as there is of a hunt-wa member winning the lotto and distributing the money equally among all the members so that we can quit our jobs and spend the rest of our lives hunting and fishing (come on fingers crossed :chuckle:). I regret having mentioned predators in my last reply... I got distracted from the topic at hand...   

I think we need focus our attention first on taking small steps and working toward realistic goals that could be achieved within the next couple of years. Start by restricting antlerless harvest. From there I'm not sure. The odd/even wild Id every other year mule deer opportunity sounds interesting and this type of idea has a much higher probability of being implemented. I am just playing the odds and willing to make sacrifices that would help the deer.

It's a huge mistake to give up on the predator issue.  It's the one issue that supercedes them all, and as long as its not fixed the future is hopeless.  We need to have a united, passionate voice at every opportunity demanding predator reduction.  There's other issues that need addressed as well, BUT ANY PROPOSAL THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE INCREASED PREDATOR REDUCTION IS LIKE TRYING TO FIX A FLAT TIRE WITH A BANDAID.  Ungulates can only sustain so much harvest, and unless we get meaningful change it will eventually be the end of OTC hunting opportunity in this state.  :twocents: :twocents:

Offline JakeLand

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #93 on: January 27, 2018, 05:04:41 PM »
Buglebrush nails it

Offline HUNTINCOUPLE

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #94 on: January 27, 2018, 06:16:52 PM »
Buglebrush nails it

Ya Bugkebush nailed it but......... This state will most likely always be OTC  for the money.  I'm sorry I got sucked in to comment.  Hopefully I don't get banned. :chuckle:
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Offline hunter399

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2018, 06:47:35 PM »
I did notice that not much changes for mule deer in the proposals for deer seasons ,wdfw must figure they still got some 💰 in mule deer herds and otc tags still.I wish they would just listen to sportsmen sometimes ,there is lots of options and do something before we have to close gmu's for harvest at all.Or we get the oops herd is on trouble let's hit the red panic button.

No mule deer doe harvest
No doe permits for mule deer
4pt antler restrictions
Only hunt mule deer every other year.
More predator control in mule deer areas

If I had my way it would be all of them.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline huntnphool

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2018, 07:46:34 PM »
 Purchase doe tags and eat them.
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2018, 08:14:50 AM »
Unless we are gonna start a massive social media campaign and hold our own public forums and write letters to the editors or opinion pieces in every newspaper in WA and ABSOLUTELY SLAM WITHOUT MERCY anyone who posts a picture of a mule deer doe anywhere on the Ďnet I think thatís a noble idea but ainít gonna do it...not to mention half those tags are gonna get filled by people who donít care too much about the above and are just happy to shoot a deer. Nope, Iím pretty sure itís a regs change thatíll do the trick.
Personally I donít see a shortage of mule deer does but the bucks get shot to hell...I guess it depends on your GMU.

Have you called your district biologist to voice your concerns?
Have you attended a public meeting on season setting?
You are getting exactly what you deserve from WDFW

Offline bigmacc

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2018, 06:03:24 PM »
Purchase doe tags and eat them.

Or have a "ceremony", tell stories of hunting deer, bucks that got away and how much you miss past hunters. Then toss them all in the fire :tup:, I can't tell you how many doe tags were "sacrificed" by my family over the years, we got drawn or purchased many, probably hundreds........I used to say let the kids have them, but only some, until about 5 years ago we witnessed 3 different abbuses of grownups bailing out of vehicles and shooting does, seen one "guy" jump out and drop 3 does, then the kids got out and  Dad :dunno: proceeded to have the youngsters pose for pictures :bash:, yes we turned them in, couldn't get a lic.plate but gave a decent description of the rig. Don't know what happened. Not right! Ruins it for the "good guys"!!!

Offline Mr Mykiss

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2018, 08:00:07 PM »
That drives home my point. Howíd your family eating hundreds of doe tags work out for WA mule deer? Good? Everything going well for em?
Have you called your district biologist to voice your concerns?
Have you attended a public meeting on season setting?
You are getting exactly what you deserve from WDFW

 

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