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Author Topic: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?  (Read 6775 times)

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2017, 09:01:16 AM »
As long as there are cougars and wolves hunting the same territory kiss the deer & elk good bye.
We gives the game department the right to release these POS wolves any way?

They didn’t release any wolves....


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There are several folks in Okanogan county that would say "you are either a liar, or you don't know what you are talking about". I would have to agree with them.



Why would you call someone a liar when he is stating a fact that has not been disproven whether you believe they were planted or not?
Many have asked to see anything evidence that could prove wolves have been planted including myself. Yet over the last 10 years nothing has ever been posted to backup the “wolf plant” story.
I am know wolf export, and I have not had to live in their vicinity like you guys in the Methow or other wolf areas.
Honestly Wolbait, if you had convincing evidence to support the “planting” showing it here would gain thousands of voices in support of your “planted wolves” hypothesis.

No need for name calling either way.
:yeah:
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2017, 09:07:54 AM »
I don't have a hard time believing there is more than one pack up there.
I have a hard time believing there were ever 52 collared cougars. Previous comments about cougar territorialism are spot on. Dominant males will kill or drive out any other males in their territory.
WDFW never needed to release wolves. They moved on their own unless you have video evidence to the contrary. We have documented evidence of wolves travelling several hundreds of miles and starting new packs.
Keep the discussion civil without pointing fingers and calling names. Telling another forum member he's a liar is unacceptable. This is why hunters can't coordinate when it's really important that we do. :twocents:
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Offline wolfbait

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2017, 09:18:41 AM »
If there is one way to get most of the pro-wolf crowd out, it's to state WDF&wolves released wolves in WA, and they did.


I remember two releases that really stood out, several WDFW rigs on the county road watching collared wolves just released run across the hillside.

The very same time frame another release in lower Alder Cr, which a UPS guy caught them doing, he was promptly told he didn't see what he thought he saw and in a week he was moved to another route.

A few days later the wolves killed a cow and calf and both WDFW and the USFWS ran to the papers and lied about it.

Talk to a county commissioner who told me of six releases he knew about, I knew of five at that time.

Funny how the pro-wolf crowd always leaps to their feet and exclaim there were no wolf releases in WA?


Alchace, I don’t include you in the pro-wolf crowd, you ask why folks in Okanogan County would call Jackalope a liar, if you read back I said he is either a liar or he doesn’t know what he is talking about, you chose liar,

Why is the pro-wolf crowd so adamant that WDFW didn’t release wolves?

See, WDFW gave us the worst wolf plan in the lower 48, they refuse to confirm wolf packs unless forced to do so through livestock predation, refuse to confirm livestock predation.

They lied about the wolves of the 1980’s and 90’s.

Why would WDFW protect predators over ungulates? Why would they want the game herds decimated?



Those are questions you should be asking.

And while you are at it, ask yourself why the USFWS, WDF&wolves and CNW can’t get their story straight on where the wolves came from.


Where Did Washington’s Wolves Come From?

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Northern Rocky Mountain Recovery Program Update

2008

Until 2008, no wild wolves had been confirmed west of the DPS boundary in Washington or Oregon. However, in July 2008, a wolf pack (2 adults and 6 pups) was discovered near Twisp, WA (just east of the North Cascades and west of the DPS boundary). Genetic testing showed these wolves did not originate from the NRM DPS; instead they apparently dispersed southward from the wolf population in southcentral British Columbia. Both adults were radio-collared and the pack is being monitored via radio telemetry by Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. If this pack persists it will remain separated and distinct from the NRM DPS by the large expanse of unsuitable wolf habitat in eastern WA and OR.

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/annualrpt08/FINAL_2008_USFWS_Recovery_Program_Update_3-17-09.pdf

DNA samples confirm gray wolves are back in Methow Valley By Joyce Campbell
Methow Valley News
July 24, 2008

DNA tests showed that the wolves originated from a population in the northern British Columbia and Alberta provinces of Canada.
“This is a natural colonization,” said Fitkin. “The wolves are naturally immigrating.”

http://www.conservationnw.org/news/pressroom/press-clips/dna-samples-confirm-gray-wolves-are-back-in-methow-valley

Is there a difference between “southcentral British Columbia” and “northern British Columbia and Alberta provinces of Canada”?

Perhaps the USFWS and WDFW should have gotten their story straight as to where they were going to say the wolves came from? I guess they couldn’t say, we hauled them in from Idaho with horse trailers, it just wouldn’t fit the narrative of: (“This is a natural colonization,” said Fitkin. “The wolves are naturally immigrating.” )

*Update* – June 13, 2014:

“DNA obtained from Lookout Pack wolves has shown they are descendents of wolves living in coastal British Columbia”, who lived separately from inland wolves for many generations, “Conservation Northwest” said in a press release.

 http://methowvalleynews.com/2013/06/25/will-federal-delisting-impact-states-wolves/


http://tomremington.com/2014/06/09/the-naturally-migrating-gi-wolves/


The one thing that I have lost all hope in is that anyone will ever be held accountable, not that it matters at this point, WA is finished.

The game herds will be decimated, and what will be WDF&wolves excuse for their lack of management?

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2017, 09:28:49 AM »
Wolfbait, you frequently label everyone who disagrees with anything you say as the "pro-wolf crowd". Not only is that inaccurate - I see no benefit to having wolves in WA as they currently exist - it's disingenuous. You sometimes put up useful information. Sometimes, not so much. You often turn on people who would normally agree with your stance on wolves. Not a great trait and certainly not one which will advance your views on this forum. It'd be of great benefit to you to stop attacking other concerned hunters.  When you make claims that on the face seem outrageous, video or photographic evidence wouldn't hurt your credibility at all. Otherwise, it's going to be viewed as unsubstantiated rumor and hyperbole. :twocents:
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Offline boneaddict

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2017, 09:41:14 AM »
Quote
I have a hard time believing there were ever 52 collared cougars.

THe person to ask would probably be Steve Reynaud.  I think he was the one running them.  52 isnt that hard to believe.  I think 4 out of the last 5 cats I have seen in the methow were collared. (excluding kittens). 


Transparancy or acute lack there of is one of the reasons no one believes the WDFW.

THere are alot of wolves in the Methow Valley.   Its a joke that they were lumped into the lookout pack. (which they publicly claimed was down to two animals)  Its basically why we either think they are stupid or they are liars.  If they have an agenda, and they must, it would have been nice if they declared it.  Basically they treat everyone like they are idiots or conspiracy theorists and we do the same to them.

Then there is a batch of you that want written proof.  Documents, herd counts etc.  and you believe every word they tell you.  LOL! 

The bottom line is there is something going on.  You are being kept in the dark and the mule deer are suffering from it and every other card that is being thrown at them. 

Offline jackelope

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2017, 10:10:19 AM »
I just figure if somebody has proved it happen maybe something can be done about it. That’s all. I am not pro wolf or anti-Wolf for anything. I also don’t believe there are 52 collared cats out there either  But I am just some dummy from the west side.


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Offline jackelope

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2017, 10:11:40 AM »
In the age of smart phones and cameras everybody has one with them at all times. Even the dumbest of smart phones has a camera on it. I assume that with all These Wolf releases that everybody has seen, maybe somebody took a picture of one of them.


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Offline packmule

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2017, 03:09:07 PM »
Ok I'll play...
52 cougars seems absurd and I think DFW is too inept to pull off wolf releases without leaving a pile of proof somewhere.  The way wolves move around why would they waste the time and $?

Seems like everyone agrees that predator numbers are WAY too high and the Methow deer herd is in a desperate state, so whats the point of bickering about these other details?

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2017, 03:25:09 PM »
Quote
Seems like everyone agrees that predator numbers are WAY too high and the Methow deer herd is in a desperate state, so whats the point of bickering about these other details?


Exactly

Offline Dan-o

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2017, 03:54:42 PM »
If there is one way to get most of the pro-wolf crowd out, it's to state WDF&wolves released wolves in WA, and they did.


I remember two releases that really stood out, several WDFW rigs on the county road watching collared wolves just released run across the hillside.

The very same time frame another release in lower Alder Cr, which a UPS guy caught them doing, he was promptly told he didn't see what he thought he saw and in a week he was moved to another route.

A few days later the wolves killed a cow and calf and both WDFW and the USFWS ran to the papers and lied about it.

Talk to a county commissioner who told me of six releases he knew about, I knew of five at that time.

Funny how the pro-wolf crowd always leaps to their feet and exclaim there were no wolf releases in WA?


Alchace, I don’t include you in the pro-wolf crowd, you ask why folks in Okanogan County would call Jackalope a liar, if you read back I said he is either a liar or he doesn’t know what he is talking about, you chose liar,

Why is the pro-wolf crowd so adamant that WDFW didn’t release wolves?

See, WDFW gave us the worst wolf plan in the lower 48, they refuse to confirm wolf packs unless forced to do so through livestock predation, refuse to confirm livestock predation.

They lied about the wolves of the 1980’s and 90’s.

Why would WDFW protect predators over ungulates? Why would they want the game herds decimated?



Those are questions you should be asking.

And while you are at it, ask yourself why the USFWS, WDF&wolves and CNW can’t get their story straight on where the wolves came from.


Where Did Washington’s Wolves Come From?

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Northern Rocky Mountain Recovery Program Update

2008

Until 2008, no wild wolves had been confirmed west of the DPS boundary in Washington or Oregon. However, in July 2008, a wolf pack (2 adults and 6 pups) was discovered near Twisp, WA (just east of the North Cascades and west of the DPS boundary). Genetic testing showed these wolves did not originate from the NRM DPS; instead they apparently dispersed southward from the wolf population in southcentral British Columbia. Both adults were radio-collared and the pack is being monitored via radio telemetry by Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. If this pack persists it will remain separated and distinct from the NRM DPS by the large expanse of unsuitable wolf habitat in eastern WA and OR.

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/annualrpt08/FINAL_2008_USFWS_Recovery_Program_Update_3-17-09.pdf

DNA samples confirm gray wolves are back in Methow Valley By Joyce Campbell
Methow Valley News
July 24, 2008

DNA tests showed that the wolves originated from a population in the northern British Columbia and Alberta provinces of Canada.
“This is a natural colonization,” said Fitkin. “The wolves are naturally immigrating.”

http://www.conservationnw.org/news/pressroom/press-clips/dna-samples-confirm-gray-wolves-are-back-in-methow-valley

Is there a difference between “southcentral British Columbia” and “northern British Columbia and Alberta provinces of Canada”?

Perhaps the USFWS and WDFW should have gotten their story straight as to where they were going to say the wolves came from? I guess they couldn’t say, we hauled them in from Idaho with horse trailers, it just wouldn’t fit the narrative of: (“This is a natural colonization,” said Fitkin. “The wolves are naturally immigrating.” )

*Update* – June 13, 2014:

“DNA obtained from Lookout Pack wolves has shown they are descendents of wolves living in coastal British Columbia”, who lived separately from inland wolves for many generations, “Conservation Northwest” said in a press release.

 http://methowvalleynews.com/2013/06/25/will-federal-delisting-impact-states-wolves/


http://tomremington.com/2014/06/09/the-naturally-migrating-gi-wolves/


The one thing that I have lost all hope in is that anyone will ever be held accountable, not that it matters at this point, WA is finished.

The game herds will be decimated, and what will be WDF&wolves excuse for their lack of management?

Labeling people,that don't buy your "wolf plant" story as pro-wolf is laughable.

Personally, i see no benefit to having wolves in Washington.   Certainly, not to the level that they've been allowed to impact some areas.

I'd be fine with no wolves.   I'd support an open season.

But.......  Nobody ever has ANY proof of these mythical wolf welease besides "Jim Bob Cooter down at the grange says he Black Helicopters dropping wolves up up on Clyde's Ridge".   But then he was visited by men in black suits with dark sunglasses and told that he didn't see it.

Who HONESTLY believes that the WDFW is even competent enough to conduct a full blown wolf release without anything getting out?  They can't even kill a batch of salmon smolts without it making the news.
 
I can't give WDFW enough credit to believe that they could do this clandestinely.

And to insist that they did - without providing ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL - just seems like a long shot.

But yeah, just keep calling people like me pro-wolf.     :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
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Offline HighlandLofts

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2017, 04:27:17 PM »
Ok I'll play...
52 cougars seems absurd and I think DFW is too inept to pull off wolf releases without leaving a pile of proof somewhere.  The way wolves move around why would they waste the time and $?

Seems like everyone agrees that predator numbers are WAY too high and the Methow deer herd is in a desperate state, so whats the point of bickering about these other details?

It would be a shame if a wolf was mistaken to be a coyote.
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Offline hunter399

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2017, 05:00:40 PM »
Why do you need to shoot ,shovel,shut up,why don't we just eat it ,yum,yum .

Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
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Offline wolfbait

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2017, 05:46:35 PM »
Wolfbait, you frequently label everyone who disagrees with anything you say as the "pro-wolf crowd". Not only is that inaccurate - I see no benefit to having wolves in WA as they currently exist - it's disingenuous. You sometimes put up useful information. Sometimes, not so much. You often turn on people who would normally agree with your stance on wolves. Not a great trait and certainly not one which will advance your views on this forum. It'd be of great benefit to you to stop attacking other concerned hunters.  When you make claims that on the face seem outrageous, video or photographic evidence wouldn't hurt your credibility at all. Otherwise, it's going to be viewed as unsubstantiated rumor and hyperbole. :twocents:



Nice little rant P-man, I didn't turn on anyone. You need to trot back and re-read.  You talk like the label “pro-wolf” is a dirty word? What would you like to call people who support the wolf agenda? I think most of the pro-wolf people now are those connected to the USFWS, WDFW, CNW etc. and support the agenda of no hunting. Then there are those who only read the I love the wolf propaganda. I do know there are far fewer pro-wolf people today then there was say 8 years ago. Many more people have and are realizing that wolves are not a good thing and the lies told by the USFWS, and WDF&wolves didn’t stand the test of time.



I don't get too excited over the wolf issue anymore, I have seen the writing on the wall for a quite a few years now. We watched each year as the deer herds changed to what we have today. For those who don't live here, or only visit occasionally I wouldn't expect them to see the changes until hunting season rolls around.



Did you read my last post P-man? You and others trust WDFW when they say they didn’t plant wolves. Tell me where WA's wolves came from, there seems to be plenty of “documentation” from the USFWS, WDFW and CNW in my post above.

WDFW have not been honest on the wolf issue from the beginning and it hasn’t changed to date.
 


Remember the 2008 “first wolf pack in 70 years” lie?  The terrible wolf plan? The refusal to confirm wolf packs and wolf predation unless forced to do so.

And yet you and others will blindly take WDF&wolves word that they didn’t release wolves. Amazing.



In Washington, Feds Opt For Wolf Introduction Over Recovery

http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/06/08/in-washington-feds-opt-for-wolf-introduction-over-recovery/


I guess maybe you would like to control free speech, it’s ok to say that WDFW didn’t release wolves but if you say they did, well not so much. Funny how that works.






Offline jackelope

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2017, 06:39:08 PM »
Wolfbait-
So still no evidence? Nobody took a pic? You’ve dodged my and many others question a couple times in this thread and lots of times over the years. No evidence of a release to support your claims? 

What’s the difference between taking Wdfw’s word that they didn’t plant wolves and taking your word that they did? 



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Offline Alchase

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2017, 06:43:53 PM »



Nothing new about the packs.   I always said there were multiple packs and listed where.   They always chalked em up as one pack which I knew as total BS.


I joked about how well travelled those lookout wolves were

In 2014 the Lookout pack was up the Twisp Valley, killing a calf above Davis Lake and I saw two above Lightning Creek all in the same day!

Yep they are a traveling pack, LOL



I don't know the area that well, but I know wolf packs are not as cohesive as some folks think.  If Davis Lake and Lightening Creek are the ones I'm thinking of, they're only ~5 miles apart... which means absolutely nothing to a wolf, they are literally minutes apart.

Wolves from the same pack can be scattered out pretty far and wide, so it would not be impossible (or even improbable) for the same pack to have animals in different portions of their home range.  That happens quite a bit.

This was when the WDFW would not admit there were more wolves than the Lookout pack in the Methow. The whole Lookout pack was accounted for up the Twisp River Valley according to the WDFW so those could not have been wolves eating the calf above Davis Lake or the two sighted above Lightning Creek. Ironically Loop Loop is a short trot for a wolf from Lighty Creek.
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Offline huntnphool

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2017, 10:03:01 PM »
Wolfbait, you frequently label everyone who disagrees with anything you say as the "pro-wolf crowd". Not only is that inaccurate - I see no benefit to having wolves in WA as they currently exist - it's disingenuous. You sometimes put up useful information. Sometimes, not so much. You often turn on people who would normally agree with your stance on wolves. Not a great trait and certainly not one which will advance your views on this forum. It'd be of great benefit to you to stop attacking other concerned hunters.  When you make claims that on the face seem outrageous, video or photographic evidence wouldn't hurt your credibility at all. Otherwise, it's going to be viewed as unsubstantiated rumor and hyperbole. :twocents:
I don't get too excited over the wolf issue anymore

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Offline bigmacc

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2017, 11:09:46 AM »
Quote
I have a hard time believing there were ever 52 collared cougars.

THe person to ask would probably be Steve Reynaud.  I think he was the one running them.  52 isnt that hard to believe.  I think 4 out of the last 5 cats I have seen in the methow were collared. (excluding kittens). 


Transparancy or acute lack there of is one of the reasons no one believes the WDFW.

THere are alot of wolves in the Methow Valley.   Its a joke that they were lumped into the lookout pack. (which they publicly claimed was down to two animals)  Its basically why we either think they are stupid or they are liars.  If they have an agenda, and they must, it would have been nice if they declared it.  Basically they treat everyone like they are idiots or conspiracy theorists and we do the same to them.

Then there is a batch of you that want written proof.  Documents, herd counts etc.  and you believe every word they tell you.  LOL! 

The bottom line is there is something going on.  You are being kept in the dark and the mule deer are suffering from it and every other card that is being thrown at them.
.

We seen 6 cats in a 10 day period, all within 2 units in the Methow this year, all 6 were different cats, out of the 6, 3 were collared, I too don't think 52 collared cats in the whole valley is that far fetched, heck it may be more :dunno:. I agree with bone, "the bottom line is there is something going on", its a big mess as far as predator numbers of all species go, cats, bear, yotes and wolves and the mule deer herd is absolutely suffering from it.

Offline Special T

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2017, 11:41:39 AM »
Quote
I have a hard time believing there were ever 52 collared cougars.

THe person to ask would probably be Steve Reynaud.  I think he was the one running them.  52 isnt that hard to believe.  I think 4 out of the last 5 cats I have seen in the methow were collared. (excluding kittens). 


Transparancy or acute lack there of is one of the reasons no one believes the WDFW.

THere are alot of wolves in the Methow Valley.   Its a joke that they were lumped into the lookout pack. (which they publicly claimed was down to two animals)  Its basically why we either think they are stupid or they are liars.  If they have an agenda, and they must, it would have been nice if they declared it.  Basically they treat everyone like they are idiots or conspiracy theorists and we do the same to them.

Then there is a batch of you that want written proof.  Documents, herd counts etc.  and you believe every word they tell you.  LOL! 

The bottom line is there is something going on.  You are being kept in the dark and the mule deer are suffering from it and every other card that is being thrown at them.
Well said Bone.

I doubt WDFW released any but wouldn't doubt USFW or some NGO did. It's unfortunate more folks don't think to use thier camera phone.

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Offline shotguunar

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2017, 04:01:48 PM »
Getting off the subject of wolves a few years back I was up calling bobcat when I was on my way back to the truck ran into a women she started asking me some questions on what I was doing talked to her for awhile she says she does a lot of hiking around the what com county area a lot told me where she has had run ins with some cougar. I f I was interested in hunting them.Then she also told me that she has ran into the wildlife department they where trapping cougar in the kendall area in what com county for what it is worth I don't no if I believe her or not but then told me they were transplanting them to other areas of the state and she said they were collaring them.Cant be to cheap to trap and transport them I can't even imagine what it cost to trap and transplant wolves.

Offline DOUBLELUNG

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2017, 04:10:09 PM »
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014.  112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas.  The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area.  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full
As long as we have the habitat, we can argue forever about who gets to kill what and when.  No habitat = no game.

Offline winshooter88

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2017, 04:21:40 PM »
Last year the WDFW started a predator/prey study, part of it in the northeast corner (whitetail) and part of it in the Methow (mule deer), so you may be seeing allot of collared deer, cougars and wolves. By the way the official number of wolf packs in the Methow area is now up to 2.

Offline jackelope

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2017, 04:32:30 PM »
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014.  112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas.  The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area.  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full

This was one from the Blues. If I remember correctly the biologist suspected he was collared in 2009 5-10 miles away from here. Date on the pic is accurate.




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Offline boneaddict

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2017, 04:39:53 PM »
Quote
the official number of wolf packs in the Methow area is now up to 2

Easily two short without any stretch of imagination

Offline winshooter88

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2017, 04:51:44 PM »
I wasn't saying that I agree with their, (WDFW's) assessment, just that 2 is what they say.

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2017, 04:59:20 PM »
 :tup:


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