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Author Topic: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?  (Read 6787 times)

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2017, 05:09:07 PM »
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014.  112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas.  The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area.  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full

Great info :tup:, well I said awhile back that in the 55 plus years I have hunted the Methow I have seen more cougars in the last 10 years than I have seen total in the other 45 years. Just seems they are spending a lot of time, man hours and money in "predator management" in the Methow, the deer herd seems to have taken a back seat, that statement could be wrong but seeing a booming predator population, collared cats everywhere, cougar kills(we seen over 20 cached kills in the same 10 day period in the same 2 units) scattered around like I have never seen before and some of the locals I know over there telling me to watch my back trail regularly when I,m out there and advising about making sure I have my "close up gun" on me when I,m out and about, then throw in a deer herd thats not even a faint shadow of what it was 10 years ago let alone 20 years ago, and oh yes, throw in the wolves and its easy to see something is just not quite right with this situation. If they are spending all the time and money studying the predators over there to help the deer herd, its not working, by the time the "study" is over the deer may be all but gone. :twocents:

Offline bobcat

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2017, 05:19:14 PM »
Shouldn't the predator populations decrease right along with the deer? Or do they make up for the lack of deer by eating pets and livestock? Just wondering, since it seems an historically low number of deer should also result in a low number of predators, since those predators can't live long and continue reproducing if they have nothing to eat.

Offline Alchase

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2017, 05:47:46 PM »
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014.  112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas.  The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area.  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full

Thanks for the info Doublelung, it puts that ď53Ē in perspective.

Would you have any inside information on any ďwolf plantsĒ?

Inquiring minds want to know?

Anyone ever done a FOIA request for information on transplanted wolves?
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Offline Special T

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2017, 06:08:17 PM »
A request for the number of wolves collared in general areas should be available by recovery zone.

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Offline Axle

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2017, 06:34:08 PM »
Itís almost funny - but actually very sad.
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn. The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just donít want to get ridiculed and I really canít blame them.
Our government has been attacking hunters (conservatives by nature - similar to the military) in many ways. The corrupt, unlawful wolf introduction of non-native wolves was a jewel in their crown of corruption!
The goal of the liberal agenda is to destroy the conservative movement at every angle.
Most hunters are either blind to this or they simply donít want to hear it or donít want to take action.
They may sadly wake up one day to find there is no hunting available and conservatives (most hunters) will be blamed for Ďkilling offí the ungulates they desire to hunt - but were denied the management tools to sustain huntable numbers of ungulates. Thatís the back door plan of those who support these non-native wolves. I hope you arenít surprised by this.
Part of the plan is to discredit those who are sending out the warning messages.
Thatís the job of the liberal media. Some are on this forum. I wish they werenít but they are and they are very loud.
Regardless of the number of cats, wolves, coyotes, or bears Ė we have far too many predators in this state and this stateís wildlife department is part of the corruption and they are not managing for hunters. They are managing for predators. I have been saying this for 30 years or more.
Iíve been ridiculed too but I know where it comes from.
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Offline Pinetar

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2017, 06:43:34 PM »
 :yeah: Well said Axle

Offline zwickeyman

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2017, 06:57:41 PM »
Axle

You wont ever find truer words written on this forum than what you say. I agree with you 100% and applaud you Sir

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2017, 07:04:43 PM »
Shouldn't the predator populations decrease right along with the deer? Or do they make up for the lack of deer by eating pets and livestock? Just wondering, since it seems an historically low number of deer should also result in a low number of predators, since those predators can't live long and continue reproducing if they have nothing to eat.

Well bobcat I think that is what a lot of us with history in the Methow have been saying for the last 5 to 10 years, IMHO I think that if things continue the way they are now, what we are seeing is the beginning of the end of this herd. Remember, back in the day(prior to the predator boom) this herd fluctuated between 30 to 40 thousand head so there has been plenty for them to eat. I believe F and W says the herd is between 15k to 20k now days( a lot of us think those numbers are much, much lower) so the herd is AT MOST half of what it was. So I guess if things stay the same then in about another 10 years this herd is going to really be in bad shape and will probably be down for the count, more livestock and pets will be targeted and eventually the predators will move on to "greener pastures" :dunno:... :twocents:
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 07:35:59 PM by bigmacc »

Offline Alchase

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2017, 07:11:40 PM »
Itís almost funny - but actually very sad.
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn. The true hunters and conservatives see what is happening and there are many on this forum that will not stand up in his defense but they agree with him. They just donít want to get ridiculed and I really canít blame them.
Our government has been attacking hunters (conservatives by nature - similar to the military) in many ways. The corrupt, unlawful wolf introduction of non-native wolves was a jewel in their crown of corruption!
The goal of the liberal agenda is to destroy the conservative movement at every angle.
Most hunters are either blind to this or they simply donít want to hear it or donít want to take action.
They may sadly wake up one day to find there is no hunting available and conservatives (most hunters) will be blamed for Ďkilling offí the ungulates they desire to hunt - but were denied the management tools to sustain huntable numbers of ungulates. Thatís the back door plan of those who support these non-native wolves. I hope you arenít surprised by this.
Part of the plan is to discredit those who are sending out the warning messages.
Thatís the job of the liberal media. Some are on this forum. I wish they werenít but they are and they are very loud.
Regardless of the number of cats, wolves, coyotes, or bears Ė we have far too many predators in this state and this stateís wildlife department is part of the corruption and they are not managing for hunters. They are managing for predators. I have been saying this for 30 years or more.
Iíve been ridiculed too but I know where it comes from.

I have not read one person say ďwe want more wolvesĒ intact it has been a crossed the board in agreement we have way too many predators.
The question the thread brought up again, was the assertion that the wolves were illegally transplanted.
If you have some information to share that proves that wolves were transplanted please share with the rest of us?
Many on here have talked about the duplicity of the WDFW reguarding wolves in the past, and would love to have the ďsmoking gunĒ that shows they did transplant wolves.
Yet no one has stepped up with anything that shows they did.
This argument has been on going since this sight has been up. In all that time, nothing has come up supporting the position that wolves were illegally transplanted.
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Offline DaveMonti

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2017, 07:17:48 PM »
The pro-wolf crowd on this forum follows Wolfbait around like a pack of wolves trying to discredit him at every turn.

...they are not managing for hunters.

Regarding the first line above, I haven't seen anyone attack Wolfbait.  Nobody is trying to discredit him.  People are asking for him to provide proof, or FACTS, about his claims. 

Secondly, as far as the WDFW "managing for hunters", who actually thinks the department is there to serve hunters?  They are chartered to manage all wildlife in the state, NOT JUST GAME ANIMALS.  Myself, and many, do not necessarily agree with the WAY the department is managing the wildlife, but if you think the WDFW exists to insure there are overpopulations of game animals throughout the state so every hunter can harvest a trophy, you might need an adjustment in your expectations. 

I'm no fan of predators or the way they are managed.  However, when someone like Wolfbait incessantly makes conspiratorial claims with no real proof, he runs the risk of being perceived as someone who has an entire tin foil wardrobe. 

It's not only the message that one delivers, but the WAY it is delivered that makes people listen and respect the messenger. 


Offline Special T

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2017, 07:17:57 PM »
Wolfbait has chronicled wolves in this state with all manner of 3rd party information. I'm quite certain he has a hard drive full of collected articles. It is evident from his frustration that his massive amounts of articles and local anicidotal  stories  that some people's definition of proof is different than his. Many on here think you need legal proof to make a claim, and be certain if he had that kind of proof there would be a lawsuit.

As some one who has been blown off  seeing wolves, and others I know the same, it's hard for me to belive that the department is on the up and up. NWWABOWHUNTER  posted pics up here of a wolf pack on the nooksack  and was blown off.

You don't have to belive Wolfbait, but you had better pay attention when Bone essentially backs up what he is saying... If you don't think he has street cred then you must be blind to the piles of pictures he takes.

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Offline boneaddict

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2017, 07:28:55 PM »
Shouldn't the predator populations decrease right along with the deer? Or do they make up for the lack of deer by eating pets and livestock? Just wondering, since it seems an historically low number of deer should also result in a low number of predators, since those predators can't live long and continue reproducing if they have nothing to eat.

I think that was the whole jist of the first post.  This winter is going to be interesting

Offline idaho guy

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2017, 08:01:59 PM »
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014.  112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas.  The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area.  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full


get your facts straight wolfbait there wasn't 52 cougars collared it was 53! geez man stick to the facts!  :chuckle:

Offline fishngamereaper

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2017, 08:16:09 PM »
People that need/ want hard proof of wdfw's involvement with wolf introduction....if you stop and think about it that info probably doesn't exist... unless you can find one of the handful of people that would of been involved. If your not aware they aren't the most trusted agency in the state. And , , unfortunately have been known to sneak around and make back door deals to push their agenda.

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2017, 08:29:57 PM »
some people's definition of proof is different than his.
:chuckle: Yea, I would agree with that.

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Offline Special T

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2017, 08:51:33 PM »
some people's definition of proof is different than his.
:chuckle: Yea, I would agree with that.

I hate to break it to ya but if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck,  and quacks like a duck.... I dont need a DNA sample to say its a duck. We KNOW that USFW brought wolves from the Mackenzie valley Canada to ID and YNP. We KNOW that the USFWS is trying to "Transplant" Grizz in the Cascades... Ive been to the meetings We know the USFW has used the Sue and Settle Technique. We know that the WDFW has a LOT of influence from "Stake holders" Whom are Faux sportsmen.... Is this Quacking and Waddling yet? Perhaps not but even if it isnt its damned close.
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Offline Dan-o

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2017, 09:15:08 PM »
some people's definition of proof is different than his.
:chuckle: Yea, I would agree with that.

I hate to break it to ya but if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck,  and quacks like a duck.... I dont need a DNA sample to say its a duck. We KNOW that USFW brought wolves from the Mackenzie valley Canada to ID and YNP. We KNOW that the USFWS is trying to "Transplant" Grizz in the Cascades... Ive been to the meetings We know the USFW has used the Sue and Settle Technique. We know that the WDFW has a LOT of influence from "Stake holders" Whom are Faux sportsmen.... Is this Quacking and Waddling yet? Perhaps not but even if it isnt its damned close.

As a guy who doesn't believe that WDFW planted wolves because I don't see any evidence, I think you're kind of making my point.

We KNOW about those other transplants because there...... was...... evidence.....

I've never called Wolfbait any names (nor anyone else that believes in WDFW wolf transplants).   I don't call you pro-wolf, or any other names.

I think we can all agree that out of control wolf populations are drastically impacting big game in the many parts of NE Washington, and that predators need to be managed more aggressively.

Good night, all.




« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 09:22:30 PM by Dan-o »
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Offline ribka

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2017, 09:15:56 PM »
some people's definition of proof is different than his.
:chuckle: Yea, I would agree with that.

Agree wholeheartedly

Would be super cool if wdfw would continue to shut down more hunting opportunities for sportsmen here in Washington so the wolf populations would grow unchecked. And shut down more mountain lion hunting too (thanks conservation NW and Mitch Friedman )and add more predators (bears ) to the mix

It's a win win for sportsmen here in the PNW. :tup:

Offline jackelope

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2017, 09:46:23 PM »
If illegal wolf introductions happened, evidence of this happening would help support a case against Wdfw or usfws or the UPS guy or whoever released the wolves. Thatís why evidence would help(in my eyes anyway). I donít want evidence because Iím a pro-wolf hippy west sider or anything like that. Not sure whatís so hard to understand there.



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Offline kellama2001

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2017, 09:02:20 AM »
  ...This winter is going to be interesting

 :yeah:
Some old fashioned things like fresh air and sunshine are hard to beat

Offline huntnphool

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2017, 09:47:14 AM »
  ...This winter is going to be interesting

 :yeah:

 If we can get a couple more weeks of weather like this we should be okay, even if it snows heavily after.........fingers crossed.
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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2017, 10:27:17 AM »
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014.  112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas.  The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area.  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full

Thanks for the info Doublelung, it puts that “53” in perspective.

Would you have any inside information on any “wolf plants”?

Inquiring minds want to know?

Anyone ever done a FOIA request for information on transplanted wolves?

I'm personally 100% positive WDFW has never imported wolves into the state.  I'm unaware of any wolves trapped in state that were released anywhere other than at the capture location, however when doing helicopter captures of ungulates it is not uncommon to transport them to a nearby work-up location.  I don't know if that has been done with wolves, but if so it would be counterproductive for research to move them out of the pack territory.

I am aware of at least two occasions where unauthorized releases of captive animals that were possibly dog hybrids have been detected and which did not persist beyond a few months.  Those were in Chelan and Lincoln Counties.  Both were 10+ years ago.  I reported one my wife and I saw along Highway 2 in Lincoln Co. in 2007 that was subsequently roadkill a few weeks later, IIRC it was an escaped animal. 

I would be surprised if nobody has done a FOIA for transplanted wolves.  I dismiss any possibility of rogue employees of WDFW doing so, I've heard the rumors and dismiss them as such - especially given WDFW's willingness to sack or otherwise sanction employees for unauthorized activities.

To put it into perspective, the relatively non-controversial re-establishment of bighorns on Chelan Butte required 3+ years of bureaucratic process (habitat suitability evaluation, strong advocacy by the WA Sheep Foundation, SEPA, etc.) before sheep were trapped in Region 3 and transplanted. 

I'm 10+ years out from having any insider information.  I can state that it was about 5 years from when field personnel, both USFS and WDFW, suspected there was a pack between Lake Chelan and the Methow River until the Lookout Pack was confirmed. I think that is likely faster now with dedicated wolf funding and personnel, but it is still reasonable to suspect at least a 1-2 year lag between the time a pack is suspected and when it is confirmed.
As long as we have the habitat, we can argue forever about who gets to kill what and when.  No habitat = no game.

Offline Special T

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2017, 10:53:14 AM »
53 cougars were collared in western Okanogan County over an 8-9 year period, from 2006 through 2014.  112 cougars were collared statewide over a 14 year period in four study areas.  The link is to a meta analysis of the data from four studies, I included it because it shows the study area locations and numbers collared in each area.  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1828/full

Thanks for the info Doublelung, it puts that “53” in perspective.

Would you have any inside information on any “wolf plants”?

Inquiring minds want to know?

Anyone ever done a FOIA request for information on transplanted wolves?

I'm personally 100% positive WDFW has never imported wolves into the state.  I'm unaware of any wolves trapped in state that were released anywhere other than at the capture location, however when doing helicopter captures of ungulates it is not uncommon to transport them to a nearby work-up location.  I don't know if that has been done with wolves, but if so it would be counterproductive for research to move them out of the pack territory.

I am aware of at least two occasions where unauthorized releases of captive animals that were possibly dog hybrids have been detected and which did not persist beyond a few months.  Those were in Chelan and Lincoln Counties.  Both were 10+ years ago.  I reported one my wife and I saw along Highway 2 in Lincoln Co. in 2007 that was subsequently roadkill a few weeks later, IIRC it was an escaped animal. 

I would be surprised if nobody has done a FOIA for transplanted wolves.  I dismiss any possibility of rogue employees of WDFW doing so, I've heard the rumors and dismiss them as such - especially given WDFW's willingness to sack or otherwise sanction employees for unauthorized activities.

To put it into perspective, the relatively non-controversial re-establishment of bighorns on Chelan Butte required 3+ years of bureaucratic process (habitat suitability evaluation, strong advocacy by the WA Sheep Foundation, SEPA, etc.) before sheep were trapped in Region 3 and transplanted. 

I'm 10+ years out from having any insider information.  I can state that it was about 5 years from when field personnel, both USFS and WDFW, suspected there was a pack between Lake Chelan and the Methow River until the Lookout Pack was confirmed. I think that is likely faster now with dedicated wolf funding and personnel, but it is still reasonable to suspect at least a 1-2 year lag between the time a pack is suspected and when it is confirmed.
I'll play devils advocate and your likely the best positioned to answer.

The antelope that have been transplanted was done outside of the WDFW influence and knowledge. I belive it was SCI and the Tribe.  Isn't it possible that some 3rd party trans planted animals? It has happened with fish... I recognize it's probably more difficult than many other animals...

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Offline Practical Approach

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2017, 11:10:31 AM »
Maybe I missed the point.   WDFW acknowledges that the wolf population is growing in WA at a rate of over 30% annually.  I assume this is happening in other wolf states as well which is why WA now has wolves.  At that growth rate, why would anyone need to transplant wolves?  They are doing a good job of expanding on their own. 

As far a prey,  wolves are adaptable animals.  They will swap prey species if and when needed or simply relocate I would suspect. 

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Multiple wolf packs in the Methow Valley?
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2017, 11:13:01 AM »
The point is if they can prove they were transplanted it could be taken to court.