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Author Topic: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings  (Read 2816 times)

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2017, 08:03:02 AM »
Couldn't be easy to share this story.....
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
-Ronald Reagan

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2017, 08:06:07 AM »
Most Everyone I know spending much time in the woods has found dead lost game with arrows nearby or lost ones they’ve shot at.   :dunno:  Not what we want but it just happens all a guy can do is our best to minimize it.
  I am in the woods 90-100 days a year between fall hunts, scouting, and spring turkey and I've never found a single one.  I've found lots of arrows over the years but never a single skeleton with an obvious arrow laying there.
It is foolish and wrong to mourn these men.  Rather, we should thank god that such men lived.  -General George S. Patton

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Offline cbond3318

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2017, 08:10:28 AM »
There is a huge lesson in this.....get out there and enjoy every second you can. You never know when life circumstances will get in the way and we won’t be able to do it like we want.

Hats off to you for pushing the edges still and putting boots to ground. From what I’ve gathered over the years here you have had a storied career in the outdoors and what you’ve shared here on this thread must have been a hard pill to swallow, but atlas Good men share, learn and move on. Good job good sir.  :tup:
"All those who love Nature she loves in return, and will richly reward, not perhaps with the good things, as they are commonly called, but with the best things of this world-not with money and title, horses and carriages, but with bright and happy thoughts, contentment and peace of mind."

John Lubbock

Offline elkinrutdrivemenuts

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2017, 08:29:01 AM »
 Shortly after I hear wet cough, followed seconds later by a crash.

The wet cough tells me that this bull is dead.  In my experience, when I hear that, the bull is dying shortly.  As big as a bull elk is, they can disappear when they go down in brush.  Sorry you were unable to find him, at least you gave it your best. 

Side note...  it would be very hard for me to watch a bull with my arrow stuck in his ass and a rifle close by.  I would have shot him and paid the price rather than let him run around like that. 

Offline Jonathan_S

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2017, 08:29:29 AM »
I wish I knew half of what DOUBLELUNG has forgotten about game. This thread has one of the most valuable members to the site, a real asset and a wealth of applicable knowledge who elected to tell a harsh reality.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 08:56:50 AM by bobcat »
“Kindly do not attempt to cloud the issue with too many facts.”

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2017, 08:55:06 AM »
Title of post including “ethics” suggests this was inviting discussion. Why beat up those with differing “musings”?

Offline Rainier10

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2017, 08:58:06 AM »
It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.

It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
Pain is temporary, achieving the goal is worth it.

I didn't say it would be easy, I said it would be worth it.

Every father should remember that one day his children will follow his example instead of his advice.


The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of HuntWa or the site owner.

Offline jennabug

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2017, 08:58:35 AM »
Thank you for sharing your story. It's a good learning opportunity for new hunters too. I'm glad to hear you got out there to hunt, and that you spent so much time looking for the animal.

Offline Sandberm

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2017, 09:02:59 AM »
I really enjoyed reading about your hunt, thank you for sharing.

I always go out with the intention of only taking the perfect shot, never happens.


Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2017, 09:10:15 AM »
It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.

It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
  beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation.  You really think it was a serious discussion? 

The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing.  Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:
It is foolish and wrong to mourn these men.  Rather, we should thank god that such men lived.  -General George S. Patton

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Offline Woodchuck

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2017, 09:13:52 AM »
It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.

It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
  beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation.  You really think it was a serious discussion? 

The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing.  Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:
Karl, I can promise you that Rainier10 is not taking a shot at the OP. He is simply making an observation on human behavior. Not just the OP and his partners.
Antlered rabbit tastes like chicken


Inuendo, wasn't he an Italian proctoligist?

Disclaimer: This my SWAG. Not even an opinion. This is not my version of a 14th hand version of a fairy tale. It is also not the opinion of the Hunt Wa. site, it's owner, or any of the moderators or admins, not even me. Scouts honor. :salute:

Offline jackelope

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2017, 09:16:09 AM »

There are lots of dead elk in the woods.  Some die from arrows, which you can see at the site.  Others die from muzzy bullets and modern firearm bullets, you probably don't find those bullets at the seen.  And of course others die of natural causes or by predators.

Hopefully this can stay on track and not be a user group versus a user group thing.

The parts in bold are the important parts to remember in this discussion. I've spent a fair amount of time in the woods and have found several dead animals, never with an arrow laying next to one of them. Who knows how they died. I'd venture a guess to say at least a couple of them died from either an arrow or a bullet.
The comments from a couple folks in this thread making it sound like bowhunters just shoot and wound game and walk away are uncalled for.

I did find an arrow stuck in a tree one time though. That guy probably should have stuck to rifle hunting.

This thread may help explain why I always find deadheads with arrows nearby.
Comments like this are 110% uncalled for, especially when you don't know anything about the guy who started this thread. I personally guarantee he has forgotten more about ungulates and anatomy than 99.9% of the rest of us on this forum will ever know.

Edit for the record.
I'm a rifle hunter. I've hunted with a bow about 7 days total in my life and never shot a thing. I shot at a grouse one day and missed.

 
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2017, 09:19:09 AM »
I shot a tree once just north of White pass.  Shoulders were covered so I held tight to the tree.....and hit the tree.  :hello:
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
-Ronald Reagan

Offline jackelope

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2017, 09:19:59 AM »
Shortly after I hear wet cough, followed seconds later by a crash.

The wet cough tells me that this bull is dead.  In my experience, when I hear that, the bull is dying shortly.  As big as a bull elk is, they can disappear when they go down in brush.  Sorry you were unable to find him, at least you gave it your best. 

Side note...  it would be very hard for me to watch a bull with my arrow stuck in his ass and a rifle close by.  I would have shot him and paid the price rather than let him run around like that. 

It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.

It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
  beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation.  You really think it was a serious discussion? 

The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing.  Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:

I think he was referring to elkinrut's comments.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline bobcat

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2017, 09:20:20 AM »
Maybe it would be better to kill the bull with a rifle rather than having it suffer with an arrow in it? I would sure feel better if that had been the case. Of course we'd never have heard the story if that had happened. But I hate knowing there's an elk out there suffering like that.

Offline jackelope

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2017, 09:20:33 AM »
I shot a tree once just north of White pass.  Shoulders were covered so I held tight to the tree.....and hit the tree.  :hello:

Weird that your arrow flew all the way to Colville. 80# draw weight?
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2017, 09:21:29 AM »

There are lots of dead elk in the woods.  Some die from arrows, which you can see at the site.  Others die from muzzy bullets and modern firearm bullets, you probably don't find those bullets at the seen.  And of course others die of natural causes or by predators.

Hopefully this can stay on track and not be a user group versus a user group thing.

The parts in bold are the important parts to remember in this discussion. I've spent a fair amount of time in the woods and have found several dead animals, never with an arrow laying next to one of them. Who knows how they died. I'd venture a guess to say at least a couple of them died from either an arrow or a bullet.
The comments from a couple folks in this thread making it sound like bowhunters just shoot and wound game and walk away are uncalled for.

I did find an arrow stuck in a tree one time though. That guy probably should have stuck to rifle hunting.

This thread may help explain why I always find deadheads with arrows nearby.
Comments like this are 110% uncalled for, especially when you don't know anything about the guy who started this thread. I personally guarantee he has forgotten more about ungulates and anatomy than 99.9% of the rest of us on this forum will ever know.

Edit for the record.
I'm a rifle hunter. I've hunted with a bow about 7 days total in my life and never shot a thing. I shot at a grouse one day and missed.
  well said!  Thank you jackelope!
It is foolish and wrong to mourn these men.  Rather, we should thank god that such men lived.  -General George S. Patton

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Offline Rainier10

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2017, 09:25:35 AM »
It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.

It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
  beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation.  You really think it was a serious discussion? 

The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing.  Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:
Karl, I can promise you that Rainier10 is not taking a shot at the OP. He is simply making an observation on human behavior. Not just the OP and his partners.
:yeah:
In the OP he said that it was brought up, just bringing it up means it was discussed.  His title says "situational ethics".  Some in this thread say that they would have had a hard time not shooting it and even said that they would have.  That and many other comments in this thread are interesting to me.

I truly was making an observation and not saying that there was anything wrong with what the op did, discussed or what others have said they would do.  I am merely interested in how others view this situation and what their take on it is.
Pain is temporary, achieving the goal is worth it.

I didn't say it would be easy, I said it would be worth it.

Every father should remember that one day his children will follow his example instead of his advice.


The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of HuntWa or the site owner.

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2017, 09:26:45 AM »
Shortly after I hear wet cough, followed seconds later by a crash.

The wet cough tells me that this bull is dead.  In my experience, when I hear that, the bull is dying shortly.  As big as a bull elk is, they can disappear when they go down in brush.  Sorry you were unable to find him, at least you gave it your best. 

Side note...  it would be very hard for me to watch a bull with my arrow stuck in his ass and a rifle close by.  I would have shot him and paid the price rather than let him run around like that. 

It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.

It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
  beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation.  You really think it was a serious discussion? 

The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing.  Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:

I think he was referring to elkinrut's comments.
  fair enough.  I just get darn defensive about stuff like this.  Beau's knowledge and experience afield is such an amazing asset to this site and all its members so when I see him getting torn up by all the keyboard warriors, especially ones we all know have little to no experience, I go on the offensive.  Meant no disrespect to Rainer.  I'd go on the same offensive for him as I also feel he is a priceless asset to this forum :tup:

It is foolish and wrong to mourn these men.  Rather, we should thank god that such men lived.  -General George S. Patton

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Offline Woodchuck

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2017, 09:29:32 AM »
Shortly after I hear wet cough, followed seconds later by a crash.

The wet cough tells me that this bull is dead.  In my experience, when I hear that, the bull is dying shortly.  As big as a bull elk is, they can disappear when they go down in brush.  Sorry you were unable to find him, at least you gave it your best. 

Side note...  it would be very hard for me to watch a bull with my arrow stuck in his ass and a rifle close by.  I would have shot him and paid the price rather than let him run around like that. 

It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.

It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
  beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation.  You really think it was a serious discussion? 

The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing.  Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:

I think he was referring to elkinrut's comments.
  fair enough.  I just get darn defensive about stuff like this.  Beau's knowledge and experience afield is such an amazing asset to this site and all its members so when I see him getting torn up by all the keyboard warriors, especially ones we all know have little to no experience, I go on the offensive.  Meant no disrespect to Rainer.  I'd go on the same offensive for him as I also feel he is a priceless asset to this forum :tup:
As are you man.  :tup:
Antlered rabbit tastes like chicken


Inuendo, wasn't he an Italian proctoligist?

Disclaimer: This my SWAG. Not even an opinion. This is not my version of a 14th hand version of a fairy tale. It is also not the opinion of the Hunt Wa. site, it's owner, or any of the moderators or admins, not even me. Scouts honor. :salute:

Offline Rainier10

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2017, 09:35:22 AM »
The written word is tough to interpret sometimes, especially when you have passionate people involved.  Just went back re reading it all and some of the posts have been modified now.

I do think that the OP was looking for a discussion about frontal shots and situational ethics and hopefully he is not taking the comments as he did something wrong.
Pain is temporary, achieving the goal is worth it.

I didn't say it would be easy, I said it would be worth it.

Every father should remember that one day his children will follow his example instead of his advice.


The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of HuntWa or the site owner.

Offline huntingfool7

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2017, 09:37:22 AM »
Maybe it would be better to kill the bull with a rifle rather than having it suffer with an arrow in it? I would sure feel better if that had been the case. Of course we'd never have heard the story if that had happened. But I hate knowing there's an elk out there suffering like that.
Those are tough calls.  Honestly, I think I would have pulled that trigger.

Offline Wanttohuntmore

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2017, 09:41:31 AM »
I'm glad this was shared and kudos for sharing.   Just remember thousands will read this.    Do you want each hunter you see in the woods taking frontal shots on bulls?  I now pass on these shots due to making the mistake,  hitting exactly where i wanted the arrow to go,  but with failure.   I do find dead,  spoiled elk each 2-3 years with marginal shots on them,  usually bone stopped a quick kill.   But broadside shots almost always kill them quick.  I've seen totally bad shots drop elk.   Not that i would suggest publicly to take them.   There are many factors that can determine a good shot,  but publicly we need to be stewards for the high percentage kill shots.

Offline elkinrutdrivemenuts

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2017, 09:50:23 AM »
It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.

It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.

It is interesting how the written word is interpreted differently.  I assumed his buddy was joking with him when I read it.  It is also interesting how sometimes the ethical thing to do may be to break the rules on occasion.  Of course this only applies to ethical people, who are trying to do the right thing. 

Offline Jonathan_S

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Re: Frontal shot on elk, situation ethics and other musings
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2017, 09:52:24 AM »
40 yard quartering away is a dream shot for many and 20 yard frontal is just as lethal as a broadside, just a smaller target. Anybody with archery skills to make a 40-50 yard broadside shot, can make a top pin frontal shot if they’re poised for the shot and know where to stick it. I’d never fault a guy for either of those shots.

Lots of elk hit in the leg bone or guts from broadside shots too. It sucks to lose an animal.
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