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Author Topic: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County  (Read 2588 times)

Offline wolfbait

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Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« on: January 01, 2018, 12:23:30 AM »
Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County





Midwest farmers say wolves are a growing problem, urge Washington to act

http://www.graydc.com/content/news/Midwest-farmers-say-wolves-are-a-growing-problem-urge-Washington-to-act-466303513.html

Offline TVHunts

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2018, 04:34:24 AM »
Those are staggering numbers.  Hopefully videos like this will bring some attention to the dire situation in some states and areas but, it is not likely.  They will keep their pointy little heads held high and claim it is nature running its course.  :mor:
TRUMP, please make America great again!

Offline nwwanderer

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 08:08:34 AM »
Thank you wolfbait, everyone should do their best to distribute this video.  Someone gets it

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 09:56:34 AM »
One wolf to the other "Where's the beef!"

My inlaws all quit going north to hunt in MN/WI because they started seeing more wolves than deer, the wolves have to eat something!  TOTAL MADNESS!
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Offline ribka

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2018, 11:16:29 AM »
One wolf to the other "Where's the beef!"

My inlaws all quit going north to hunt in MN/WI because they started seeing more wolves than deer, the wolves have to eat something!  TOTAL MADNESS!

grew up not far from there and used to grouse hunt up there in the 1970's early 80's not uncommon to see 40 60 deer in the big hay fields at night. Usually count over 200 deer a night shining fields which is legal there. Went home last year and in 3 hours of shining fields saw 2 does.

My friends abck at home say they get many more pics of wolves now on trail cams then deer. I used to go home and bow hunt rut every year for oover 20 years. I stopped because the wolves cleaned out most of the deer.

And they shut down wolf hunting in Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan . Howling for wolves was one of the groups involved in the lawsuit to end wolf hunting. Minnesota has over 2000 wolves now and increasing 30 per cent a year!!!!They are closely associated with conservation NW.

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2018, 12:43:24 PM »
One wolf to the other "Where's the beef!"

My inlaws all quit going north to hunt in MN/WI because they started seeing more wolves than deer, the wolves have to eat something!  TOTAL MADNESS!

Minnesotans usually take 150,000 to over 200,000 deer a year.  In the last 20 years there have only been 2 years where the harvest was under 150,000...... 1997 at 143,327 and 2014 at 138,442. Don't know about 2017 but 2015 and 2016 the harvest was 159,343 and 173,213 respectively, so the population is climbing again. I'd guess the 2014 down cycle was weather/habitat related. The population peaked between 2003 and 2006 then started a decline. Now it's on the incline again.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/deer/reports/harvest/deerharvest_2016.pdf

Wisconsin still harvests about 300,000 deer per year. Down from the peak of about 600,000 deer in 2000. But they made a concerted effort to lower the deer population in those days because they had way too many. You could get multiple deer tags and shooting does was definitely encouraged, in fact in 2000, 356,741 does were taken by rifle hunters and 46,220 were taken by bow hunters.  Compare that to Washington's TOTAL (bucks and does) harvest for 2000 of 40,976 deer. So in 2000 in Wisconsin, bow hunters alone killed more does than the total deer harvest in Washington.

http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/documents/deerhistory.pdf

I don't think either state has a deer shortage.

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Offline ribka

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2018, 01:54:11 PM »
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/outdoors/2017/11/28/wisconsin-gun-deer-harvest-dips-35-year-low/900566001/


most of the harvest is in the south part of the state with fewer or no wolves but am sure you know that

i ve deer hunted in Wisconsin over 30 years.How many years have you hunted there? The deer hunting there used to be world class and over 4 months long.

Same guys who come on here and sing the praises of wolves in Washington, Idaho, Montana and CNW :dunno:


yep the weather is to blame once again

The northern Wisconsin deer herd, especially, has benefitted from three consecutive mild winters and several years of “buck only” regulations intended to allow more female deer to live and reproduce.


Over 3500 wolves in Minnesota and Minnesota, hunting shutdown by anti hunting groups and wolf populations growing uncontrolled  now at 30 per cent a year

Anti hunting Groups like howling for wolves and conservation nw  should pay these farmers for their losses if they want exploding uncontrolled wolf populations and no way to control them. Their dream of ending all hunting is slowly coming to fruition




One wolf to the other "Where's the beef!"

My inlaws all quit going north to hunt in MN/WI because they started seeing more wolves than deer, the wolves have to eat something!  TOTAL MADNESS!

Minnesotans usually take 150,000 to over 200,000 deer a year.  In the last 20 years there have only been 2 years where the harvest was under 150,000...... 1997 at 143,327 and 2014 at 138,442. Don't know about 2017 but 2015 and 2016 the harvest was 159,343 and 173,213 respectively, so the population is climbing again. I'd guess the 2014 down cycle was weather/habitat related. The population peaked between 2003 and 2006 then started a decline. Now it's on the incline again.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/deer/reports/harvest/deerharvest_2016.pdf

Wisconsin still harvests about 300,000 deer per year. Down from the peak of about 600,000 deer in 2000. But they made a concerted effort to lower the deer population in those days because they had way too many. You could get multiple deer tags and shooting does was definitely encouraged, in fact in 2000, 356,741 does were taken by rifle hunters and 46,220 were taken by bow hunters.  Compare that to Washington's TOTAL (bucks and does) harvest for 2000 of 40,976 deer. So in 2000 in Wisconsin, bow hunters alone killed more does than the total deer harvest in Washington.

http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/documents/deerhistory.pdf

I don't think either state has a deer shortage.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 02:00:29 PM by ribka »

Offline Calvin Rayborn

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2018, 11:29:23 PM »
You gotta be kidding me!  :yike:
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 04:35:46 AM by Russ McDonald »

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2018, 04:54:23 AM »
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/outdoors/2017/11/28/wisconsin-gun-deer-harvest-dips-35-year-low/900566001/

most of the harvest is in the south part of the state with fewer or no wolves but am sure you know that

i ve deer hunted in Wisconsin over 30 years.How many years have you hunted there? The deer hunting there used to be world class and over 4 months long.

Same guys who come on here and sing the praises of wolves in Washington, Idaho, Montana and CNW :dunno:

yep the weather is to blame once again

The northern Wisconsin deer herd, especially, has benefitted from three consecutive mild winters and several years of “buck only” regulations intended to allow more female deer to live and reproduce.


Never hunted Wisconsin. But that's irrelevant.  The facts are the facts. You can choose to believe them or not. The Wisconsin DNR has a lot of data that they share.

So, as to my guess of weather....... well, this was actually pretty predictable.
 
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/environment/heavy-winter-kill-likely-means-no-doe-hunt-in-northern/article_9e9a57bd-5c2e-50e4-91d1-97b66a6d6934.html

Two bad winters in a row and heavy winter kill.  Which led to the restrictions you cited and the three mild winters since have helped the herd grow again.

As for "singing the praises of wolves", I'm not sure many do that on this site. But there are some of us who say that the harm done to game populations is way overstated by some. 

If you are really interested in the different ways deer die in Wisconsin, this radio collar study they did is pretty interesting. You'd be surprised to know that wolves weren't that big of a factor in how deer died.  The major factor was hunters, even when it came to fawns.  As for fawn mortality, there were two groups that were studied, (Northern forest fawns and Eastern farmland fawns) As you probably expected in the northern forest, predation was the #1 cause of death. But of 16 fawns that died by Dec 31, only one was killed by a wolf. The leader was bobcats at 4 and bear and coyotes at 2 each and 2 by unknown predators. Hunters took 3, and a poacher took 1 and 1 was a road kill. In the Eastern farm land, the causes of death were far different.  Of the 19 radio collared fawns that died there, Only 4 were killed by predators. One by bobcat, 2 by coyotes and one by a domestic dog.  Disease killed 4, and starvation killed 9, and 2 by hunters.  My guess would be that the farmland has less cover from snow and less to eat in the winter after crops are harvested and the diseased ones were starving which made them more susceptible to disease.  So fawns died in both areas but from mostly different causes. And wolves weren't the problem.

http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/wildlifehabitat/research/documents/Deer_Annual_Report_2013_2014.pdf
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Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2018, 04:59:16 AM »
Take it easy there sitka- there can't possibly be more to the story than wolves killing everything and conservation groups cheering them on.   ;)

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2018, 07:02:57 AM »
Take it easy there sitka- there can't possibly be more to the story than wolves killing everything and conservation groups cheering them on.   ;)
:chuckle:
Yea...and what's with all the facts?...this is a wolf thread! 
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Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2018, 11:20:59 AM »
Take it easy there sitka- there can't possibly be more to the story than wolves killing everything and conservation groups cheering them on.   ;)
:chuckle:
Yea...and what's with all the facts?...this is a wolf thread!

Whoops! Sorry. I forgot where I was.
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Offline ribka

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2018, 12:05:13 PM »
Apparently you did

When someone comes on here and redefines  eco terrorists and anti hunting groups as conservation groups you know that facts don’t matter

That was pretty funny I bet when you read that people’s livelihoods are being destroyed by wolves.
Where’s cnw on this massive loss of livestock by wolves?

I thought they supported all user groups




Take it easy there sitka- there can't possibly be more to the story than wolves killing everything and conservation groups cheering them on.   ;)
:chuckle:
Yea...and what's with all the facts?...this is a wolf thread!

Whoops! Sorry. I forgot where I was.

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2018, 12:34:02 PM »

When someone comes on here and redefines  eco terrorists and anti hunting groups as conservation groups you know that facts don’t matter

That was pretty funny I bet when you read that people’s livelihoods are being destroyed by wolves.
Where’s cnw on this massive loss of livestock by wolves?

I thought they supported all user groups

CNW probably doesn't do much about wolves in Minnesota, considering it's like 1500 miles from the NW...

I actually like your comment about redefining the term "conservation group" and somewhat agree.  I think we (hunters) did a poor job of protecting the term.  Hunting groups (DU, RMEF, SCI, ect) need to take that term back and make other groups "earn" the title. 

Offline ribka

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2018, 08:44:01 AM »
posted this before regarding conservation nw and howling for wolves

Howling for wolves is a virulent left wing anti hunting group that has filed lawsuits in Minnesota to shut down wolf control and end all hunting

Mat Johnson staff of CNW

Matt has extensive professional experience and education in information technology systems and electronics. After realizing both the deplorable status that non-human animals hold in modern society and the constant degradation of the environment by humanity, he decided to apply his training to solving these problems by working for a world-class non-profit, Conservation Northwest. MMatt also has experience as a volunteer for the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and Howling For Wolves, is trained as a Minnesota Master Naturalist, and worked on a successful campaign to limit pesticide use in Minneapolis, among many other conservation-related activities.


And sierra club, a close ally of cnw and major anti hunting group, has been involved in shutting down wolf control in the midwest

I posted a link on CNW's facebook page in the past talking about engaging in activism with sierra club

need any more proof :dunno:






When someone comes on here and redefines  eco terrorists and anti hunting groups as conservation groups you know that facts don’t matter

That was pretty funny I bet when you read that people’s livelihoods are being destroyed by wolves.
Where’s cnw on this massive loss of livestock by wolves?

I thought they supported all user groups

CNW probably doesn't do much about wolves in Minnesota, considering it's like 1500 miles from the NW...

I actually like your comment about redefining the term "conservation group" and somewhat agree.  I think we (hunters) did a poor job of protecting the term.  Hunting groups (DU, RMEF, SCI, ect) need to take that term back and make other groups "earn" the title.

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2018, 11:38:22 AM »
I'm not sure I understand your argument.  Are you thinking CNW should be involved or interested in wolves in MN because thier IT guy worked there at one time?

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2018, 12:22:20 PM »
I grew up hunting deer in Northern Minnesota and across Wisconsin and the Wolves population just follows the booms and bust of the deer populations across Northern Minnesota.

In the early 2000's there was about 7 or 8 years of very mild winters that allowed the deer population to go thru the roof.  Wisco had such an over abundance of deer that they instituted a "Earn a Buck" tags where you actually had to tag and register a doe before you could use your buck tag.  You also were given 3 deer tags with license, one being a buck tag.  The states were aggressively lowering the deer pops, so Id venture to say the wolves haven't drastically lowered hunter success rates at all. 

And remember Minnesota has more wolves living there then Washington, Idaho, Montana, Oregon and Wyoming... COMBINED! and there still is deer there.  I am not some wolf conservationist but I think the wolf impact is a little over stated.  I feel we do need to allow hunting on them just like we do with all other predators, to control numbers.  The days of "Leave Nature alone" need to end.  Humans have had far too much impact on our environment to just let things be as a conservation tool. 

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2018, 01:21:07 PM »
And remember Minnesota has more wolves living there then Washington, Idaho, Montana, Oregon and Wyoming... COMBINED! and there still is deer there.  I am not some wolf conservationist but I think the wolf impact is a little over stated.  I feel we do need to allow hunting on them just like we do with all other predators, to control numbers. 

I agree with your take, elkchaser.  For the most part, wolves don't change things hunting-wise. There are other factors that have a bigger impact.  When they do prove to be a big part of the problem, deal with them. Manage them just like other species.  Focusing strictly on wolves means a lot of the other factors get ignored. And you walk around pissed off all the time.
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Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2018, 01:29:53 PM »
Well its a whole lot better to be pissed off than pissed on.

Offline Dan-o

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 02:35:38 PM »
To the original post:   that is a ton of livestock to lose to wolves. 

The map with the pins was quite effective. 

And I do think that those folks ought to be able to use aggressive means to protect their livestock. 

I'd have way more sympathy for those who want more wolves if they'd actually put their own $$$$$ towards paying the farmer's losses.
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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 06:20:45 PM »
I agree with all that Dan-o

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 06:22:10 PM »

And I do think that those folks ought to be able to use aggressive means to protect their livestock. 


I agree.  The non lethal methods are mostly a joke. And getting the State involved every time animals need to be taken out is unnecessarily expensive, and takes too long. When animals need to be dealt with it needs to be done now, in real time. The thing is, wolves are smart as many animals are. If they immediately get shot at when behaving badly and a few get killed, the rest learn to be careful. Just like deer do after opening day.
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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2018, 10:53:32 PM »
And remember Minnesota has more wolves living there then Washington, Idaho, Montana, Oregon and Wyoming... COMBINED! and there still is deer there.  I am not some wolf conservationist but I think the wolf impact is a little over stated.  I feel we do need to allow hunting on them just like we do with all other predators, to control numbers. 

I agree with your take, elkchaser.  For the most part, wolves don't change things hunting-wise. There are other factors that have a bigger impact.  When they do prove to be a big part of the problem, deal with them. Manage them just like other species.  Focusing strictly on wolves means a lot of the other factors get ignored. And you walk around pissed off all the time.

One should remember the Yellowstone elk herd etc. when the devastation of game herds is brought to the forefront.

To say that "wolves don't change things hunting-wise",  is utter BS, and shows extreme ignorance.



« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 07:29:34 AM by wolfbait »

Offline HighlandLofts

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2018, 06:10:32 AM »
One wolf to the other "Where's the beef!"

My inlaws all quit going north to hunt in MN/WI because they started seeing more wolves than deer, the wolves have to eat something!  TOTAL MADNESS!

Minnesotans usually take 150,000 to over 200,000 deer a year.  In the last 20 years there have only been 2 years where the harvest was under 150,000...... 1997 at 143,327 and 2014 at 138,442. Don't know about 2017 but 2015 and 2016 the harvest was 159,343 and 173,213 respectively, so the population is climbing again. I'd guess the 2014 down cycle was weather/habitat related. The population peaked between 2003 and 2006 then started a decline. Now it's on the incline again.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/deer/reports/harvest/deerharvest_2016.pdf

Wisconsin still harvests about 300,000 deer per year. Down from the peak of about 600,000 deer in 2000. But they made a concerted effort to lower the deer population in those days because they had way too many. You could get multiple deer tags and shooting does was definitely encouraged, in fact in 2000, 356,741 does were taken by rifle hunters and 46,220 were taken by bow hunters.  Compare that to Washington's TOTAL (bucks and does) harvest for 2000 of 40,976 deer. So in 2000 in Wisconsin, bow hunters alone killed more does than the total deer harvest in Washington.

http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/documents/deerhistory.pdf

I don't think either state has a deer shortage.

Do you trust the Liberal Game Department enough to publish the TRUE NUMBERS OF DEER HARVESTED?  They can publish any number they want to achieve their agenda.

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Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2018, 07:32:35 AM »
If you don't believe "nothing you read and half of what you see" you really limit yourself.  I would chalk that up as bad advice.

Yeah, I believe the harvest report from.the agency.  I suspect misrepresentation by hunters (falsely reporting) is more of a problem than agency misconduct.

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2018, 10:16:32 AM »
If you don't believe "nothing you read and half of what you see" you really limit yourself.  I would chalk that up as bad advice.

Yeah, I believe the harvest report from.the agency.  I suspect misrepresentation by hunters (falsely reporting) is more of a problem than agency misconduct.

Sure I think there is some non accurate reporting and even lack of reporting by hunters(which is wrong IMO), on the other hand if you believe harvest reports or forecasts from the agency you may have been given some "bad advice" also.

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2018, 10:41:25 AM »
A simple FOIA request could prove your case... Why would the agency risk tampering with harvest data? 

The more realistic scenario is that the seasons are changed around and harvest data comparisons get difficult.

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2018, 01:43:14 PM »
And remember Minnesota has more wolves living there then Washington, Idaho, Montana, Oregon and Wyoming... COMBINED! and there still is deer there.  I am not some wolf conservationist but I think the wolf impact is a little over stated.  I feel we do need to allow hunting on them just like we do with all other predators, to control numbers. 

I agree with your take, elkchaser.  For the most part, wolves don't change things hunting-wise. There are other factors that have a bigger impact.  When they do prove to be a big part of the problem, deal with them. Manage them just like other species.  Focusing strictly on wolves means a lot of the other factors get ignored. And you walk around pissed off all the time.

One should remember the Yellowstone elk herd etc. when the devastation of game herds is brought to the forefront.

To say that "wolves don't change things hunting-wise",  is utter BS, and shows extreme ignorance.

https://qcnr.usu.edu/labs/macnulty_lab/files/MacNulty%20et%20al%202016a.pdf

I'll play with you wolfbait.  Here is a well written and documented article about the decline in the Yellowstone herd.  And wolves had a part in it although probably not in the way you would think or as big a part as you maintain.  For starters, the decline started before wolves were reintroduced. The December 1994 count was 2,254 less elk than the previous winter. Then right after the first wolves were released, the winter of 1997 happened on top of the largest hunter harvest ever in the late hunt. That winter had a record winter kill. But here is where it is probable that wolves added to the decline combined with the late hunt.   And the reason is the way wolves hunt and the way humans hunt. Wolves take a good % of calves out of a herd. About half the elk they kill are calves. But interesting enough, of the cows they take, 89% ate over 10 years old. So in other words, once a cow elk matures, they are fairly safe from wolves, statistically until they get past their prime breeding age.  So the prime breeders make up for calves lost to predators.  But humans on the other hand tend to take prime breeding aged cows. See the graph in the article. With the late hunt continuing after the winter crash of 1997 and a growing wolf population, it was a triple whammy on the herd.  With the end of the winter hunt (which was mostly about keeping damage down on surrounding farms and an attempt to keep the elk in Yellowstone from completely devastating their habitat.) and a falling wolf population, the population of the herd seems to have stabilized and is growing again.

But before you lay it all on the wolves, look at the very first chart of the elk population in Yellowstone. There was another crash in recent history which culminated in the lowest number of elk in recent history and it had nothing to do with wolves as were weren't any wolves in Yellowstone in 1967-1968. After that crash, the herd grew rapidly, probably too rapidly and too large and another crash was bound to happen, wolves or no wolves.  And the herd will climb again in spite of wolves.

Meanwhile, hunters in Montana harvested Between 20,000-30,000 elk per year between 2004 and 2016, with 30,000 taken in 2015.  In 1995, the year wolves were reintroduced Montana had roughly 95,000 elk. New newest population estimate I can find is for 2013 and it is 150,000 elk. So it doesn't appear to me that wolves are hurting hunters' ability to hunt in Montana.

In Wyoming, in 1995, the year wolves were reintroduced, hunters killed 17,695 elk. In 2016, they killed 25,852 elk. Tell me again how bad wolves have slaughtered elk herds.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 09:02:25 PM by Sitka_Blacktail »
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Offline bigmacc

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2018, 03:33:38 PM »
A simple FOIA request could prove your case... Why would the agency risk tampering with harvest data? 

The more realistic scenario is that the seasons are changed around and harvest data comparisons get difficult.

"Why would the agency risk tampering with harvest data"?....The same reason they inflate herd sizes AND balloon forecasts, sell more tags, make more money, support other critters other than our ungulates which we all know have not been tended to like they once were... :twocents:

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2018, 05:48:26 PM »
And remember Minnesota has more wolves living there then Washington, Idaho, Montana, Oregon and Wyoming... COMBINED! and there still is deer there.  I am not some wolf conservationist but I think the wolf impact is a little over stated.  I feel we do need to allow hunting on them just like we do with all other predators, to control numbers. 

I agree with your take, elkchaser.  For the most part, wolves don't change things hunting-wise. There are other factors that have a bigger impact.  When they do prove to be a big part of the problem, deal with them. Manage them just like other species.  Focusing strictly on wolves means a lot of the other factors get ignored. And you walk around pissed off all the time.

One should remember the Yellowstone elk herd etc. when the devastation of game herds is brought to the forefront.

To say that "wolves don't change things hunting-wise",  is utter BS, and shows extreme ignorance.

https://qcnr.usu.edu/labs/macnulty_lab/files/MacNulty%20et%20al%202016a.pdf

I'll play with you wolfbait.  Here is a well written and documented article about the decline in the Yellowstone herd.  And wolves had a part in it although probably not in the way you would thing or as big a part as you maintain.  For starters, the decline started before wolves were reintroduced. The December 1994 count was 2,254 less elk than the previous winter. Then right after the first wolves were released, the winter of 1997 happened on top of the largest hunter harvest ever in the late hunt. That winter had a record winter kill. But here is where it is probable that wolves added to the decline combined with the late hunt.   And the reason is the way wolves hunt and the way humans hunt. Wolves take a good % of calves out of a herd. About half the elk they kill are calves. But interesting enough, of the cows they take, 89% ate over 10 years old. So in other words, once a cow elk matures, they are fairly safe from wolves, statistically until they get past their prime breeding age.  So the prime breeders make up for calves lost to predators.  But humans on the other hand tend to take prime breeding aged cows. See the graph in the article. With the late hunt continuing after the winter crash of 1997 and a growing wolf population, it was a triple whammy on the herd.  With the end of the winter hunt (which was mostly about keeping damage down on surrounding farms and an attempt to keep the elk in Yellowstone from completely devastating their habitat.) and a falling wolf population, the population of the herd seems to have stabilized and is growing again.

But before you lay it all on the wolves, look at the very first chart of the elk population in Yellowstone. There was another crash in recent history which culminated in the lowest number of elk in recent history and it had nothing to do with wolves as were weren't any wolves in Yellowstone in 1967-1968. After that crash, the herd grew rapidly, probably too rapidly and too large and another crash was bound to happen, wolves or no wolves.  And the herd will climb again in spite of wolves.

Meanwhile, hunters in Montana harvested Between 20,000-30,000 elk per year between 2004 and 2016, with 30,000 taken in 2015.  In 1995, the year wolves were reintroduced Montana had roughly 95,000 elk. New newest population estimate I can find is for 2013 and it is 150,000 elk. So it doesn't appear to me that wolves are hurting hunters' ability to hunt in Montana.

In Wyoming, in 1995, the year wolves were reintroduced, hunters killed 17,695 elk. In 2016, they killed 25,852 elk. Tell me again how bad wolves have slaughtered elk herds.

I tried to read some of the crap article, I really did, anything with Doug Smith in it is usually tainted:

"Despite uncertainty about the northern Yellowstone elk data, there is little doubt that wolves have contributed to the recent decline of the northern elk herd. What is in doubt is the size of that contribution. How much of the decline is due to wolves? The basic biology of wolves suggests that they have a modest influence on elk dynamics. The wolf has the bite force, body size, and cooperative behavior to kill a wide array of ungulates ranging from diminutive deer to one-ton bison (Mech et al. 2015). But it lacks the massive size, retractable claws, supinating muscular forelimbs, and specialized skull configuration (Peterson and Ciucci 2003) that would allow it to be a consistently high-success hunter of any one particular prey species. Instead, the wolf is a consistently low-success hunter of a wide range of prey. Its strategy is to find the easy mark: a prey animal that is easily killed because of its small size, old age, poor health, or treacherous surroundings. The problem is that easy marks are generally rare and often inconspicuous. Wolves find their mark by relentlessly sifting through the available prey pool, testing prospective victims. Wolves cast a wide net and test many more prey than they actually kill. This is why the success of wolves hunting elk in northern Yellowstone has rarely exceeded 20% (Smith et al. 2000, Mech et al. 2001) and drops to less than 10% when only adult elk are considered (MacNulty et al. 2012)."


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Back to the BS line of "Wolves only kill the old, the sick and the weak".


Do you remember the LoLo elk herds, IDFG finally had to admit wolves were the reason for decline.

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2018, 08:56:22 AM »
As far as believing what the government tells you as being true I call BS on that.
Back in the 80s there were a bunch of rapes going on in the Philadelphia are where college students lived, the the city would not let the statistics out about them to the public because it would cut down on tourism to that historic district. How many decades did it take for that fact to come out? over twenty-five years.

The government does as they please and cover up their tracks. I have 0% trust in government operations,there is to much corruption in the system.

Look at all of the people in the Clinton circle that came up dead.
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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2018, 09:57:33 AM »
I love how anything involving the government always has a giant conspiracy behind it.  We go from elk to rapes in Philadelphia to un-corroborated Clinton stories.  I'm sure the WDFW was involved in both of those as well as UFO landings and the moon landing hoax. 

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2018, 11:20:03 AM »
I love how anything involving the government always has a giant conspiracy behind it.  We go from elk to rapes in Philadelphia to un-corroborated Clinton stories.  I'm sure the WDFW was involved in both of those as well as UFO landings and the moon landing hoax. 
Unfortunately that's the type we're dealing with here.  If it doesn't fit their ideals, it's "fake news" and conspiracy. 

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2018, 11:22:13 AM »
I love how anything involving the government always has a giant conspiracy behind it.  We go from elk to rapes in Philadelphia to un-corroborated Clinton stories.  I'm sure the WDFW was involved in both of those as well as UFO landings and the moon landing hoax. 
Unfortunately that's the type we're dealing with here.  If it doesn't fit their ideals, it's "fake news" and conspiracy.
So people like Weilgus and Friedman don't have agendas?  Look back at Jamie Rappaport Clark too.

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2018, 11:39:08 AM »
remember mitch friedman spent over 20 years in the eco terrorist group earth first and they had an agenda that cost victims millions of dollars and injured loggers by spiking trees

https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/271-earth-first/

He reinvented himself many times but he is still the same guy who wants to shut down sport hunting

But as one of posters above said before on here we need to trust Friedman because he is a good guy? He has no agenda :chuckle: :chuckle:

Who is dumb enough to believe this crap :dunno:


I love how anything involving the government always has a giant conspiracy behind it.  We go from elk to rapes in Philadelphia to un-corroborated Clinton stories.  I'm sure the WDFW was involved in both of those as well as UFO landings and the moon landing hoax. 
Unfortunately that's the type we're dealing with here.  If it doesn't fit their ideals, it's "fake news" and conspiracy.
So people like Weilgus and Friedman don't have agendas?  Look back at Jamie Rappaport Clark too.

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2018, 12:49:38 PM »
And remember Minnesota has more wolves living there then Washington, Idaho, Montana, Oregon and Wyoming... COMBINED! and there still is deer there.  I am not some wolf conservationist but I think the wolf impact is a little over stated.  I feel we do need to allow hunting on them just like we do with all other predators, to control numbers. 

I agree with your take, elkchaser.  For the most part, wolves don't change things hunting-wise. There are other factors that have a bigger impact.  When they do prove to be a big part of the problem, deal with them. Manage them just like other species.  Focusing strictly on wolves means a lot of the other factors get ignored. And you walk around pissed off all the time.

One should remember the Yellowstone elk herd etc. when the devastation of game herds is brought to the forefront.

To say that "wolves don't change things hunting-wise",  is utter BS, and shows extreme ignorance.

https://qcnr.usu.edu/labs/macnulty_lab/files/MacNulty%20et%20al%202016a.pdf

I'll play with you wolfbait.  Here is a well written and documented article about the decline in the Yellowstone herd.  And wolves had a part in it although probably not in the way you would thing or as big a part as you maintain.  For starters, the decline started before wolves were reintroduced. The December 1994 count was 2,254 less elk than the previous winter. Then right after the first wolves were released, the winter of 1997 happened on top of the largest hunter harvest ever in the late hunt. That winter had a record winter kill. But here is where it is probable that wolves added to the decline combined with the late hunt.   And the reason is the way wolves hunt and the way humans hunt. Wolves take a good % of calves out of a herd. About half the elk they kill are calves. But interesting enough, of the cows they take, 89% ate over 10 years old. So in other words, once a cow elk matures, they are fairly safe from wolves, statistically until they get past their prime breeding age.  So the prime breeders make up for calves lost to predators.  But humans on the other hand tend to take prime breeding aged cows. See the graph in the article. With the late hunt continuing after the winter crash of 1997 and a growing wolf population, it was a triple whammy on the herd.  With the end of the winter hunt (which was mostly about keeping damage down on surrounding farms and an attempt to keep the elk in Yellowstone from completely devastating their habitat.) and a falling wolf population, the population of the herd seems to have stabilized and is growing again.

But before you lay it all on the wolves, look at the very first chart of the elk population in Yellowstone. There was another crash in recent history which culminated in the lowest number of elk in recent history and it had nothing to do with wolves as were weren't any wolves in Yellowstone in 1967-1968. After that crash, the herd grew rapidly, probably too rapidly and too large and another crash was bound to happen, wolves or no wolves.  And the herd will climb again in spite of wolves.

Meanwhile, hunters in Montana harvested Between 20,000-30,000 elk per year between 2004 and 2016, with 30,000 taken in 2015.  In 1995, the year wolves were reintroduced Montana had roughly 95,000 elk. New newest population estimate I can find is for 2013 and it is 150,000 elk. So it doesn't appear to me that wolves are hurting hunters' ability to hunt in Montana.

In Wyoming, in 1995, the year wolves were reintroduced, hunters killed 17,695 elk. In 2016, they killed 25,852 elk. Tell me again how bad wolves have slaughtered elk herds.

I tried to read some of the crap article, I really did, anything with Doug Smith in it is usually tainted:

"Despite uncertainty about the northern Yellowstone elk data, there is little doubt that wolves have contributed to the recent decline of the northern elk herd. What is in doubt is the size of that contribution. How much of the decline is due to wolves? The basic biology of wolves suggests that they have a modest influence on elk dynamics. The wolf has the bite force, body size, and cooperative behavior to kill a wide array of ungulates ranging from diminutive deer to one-ton bison (Mech et al. 2015). But it lacks the massive size, retractable claws, supinating muscular forelimbs, and specialized skull configuration (Peterson and Ciucci 2003) that would allow it to be a consistently high-success hunter of any one particular prey species. Instead, the wolf is a consistently low-success hunter of a wide range of prey. Its strategy is to find the easy mark: a prey animal that is easily killed because of its small size, old age, poor health, or treacherous surroundings. The problem is that easy marks are generally rare and often inconspicuous. Wolves find their mark by relentlessly sifting through the available prey pool, testing prospective victims. Wolves cast a wide net and test many more prey than they actually kill. This is why the success of wolves hunting elk in northern Yellowstone has rarely exceeded 20% (Smith et al. 2000, Mech et al. 2001) and drops to less than 10% when only adult elk are considered (MacNulty et al. 2012)."


In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only.  s:  http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

Back to the BS line of "Wolves only kill the old, the sick and the weak".


Do you remember the LoLo elk herd, IDFG finally had to admit wolves were the reason for decline.

Those of you who are not agenda driven pro-wolf will get a great benefit of knowledge from the info. in the link below.


The Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd

http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2017%20Feb-Mar%202006%20The%20Northern%20Yellowstone%20elk%20herd.pdf

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2018, 01:02:49 PM »
A simple FOIA request could prove your case... Why would the agency risk tampering with harvest data? 

The more realistic scenario is that the seasons are changed around and harvest data comparisons get difficult.

"Why would the agency risk tampering with harvest data"?....The same reason they inflate herd sizes AND balloon forecasts, sell more tags, make more money, support other critters other than our ungulates which we all know have not been tended to like they once were... :twocents:


 The fraud and corruption of the wolf introduction continues on from state to state......

Predicted Wolf Impact Based on False IDFG Data

 IDFG biologists Kuck, Nelson, Ra provided the 1993 FWS Wolf EIS with wild ungulate prey numbers for the 20,700 sq. mile Central Idaho Primary Analysis Area. The claimed average post-season elk and deer populations were six times higher than the numbers counted by helicopter and recorded by IDFG biologists in any unit in the PAA. In a September 24, 1993 draft letter to Wolf Project Leader Ed Bangs, IDFG Director Jerry Conley admitted that IDFG personnel had provided the data lysis in the Wolf EIS concerning the impact of introducing 100 wolves into central Idaho. His letter claimed a recovering wolf population “will rarely cause unacceptable impacts” and stated, “We believe these analyses provide a realistic picture of the probable environmental consequences of a recovered wolf population (about 100 animals) in central Idaho based on the best available data.” (emphasis added)

http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%2026%20January%202008%20full%20report.pdf


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Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2018, 02:08:43 PM »
I love how anything involving the government always has a giant conspiracy behind it.  We go from elk to rapes in Philadelphia to un-corroborated Clinton stories.  I'm sure the WDFW was involved in both of those as well as UFO landings and the moon landing hoax. 
Unfortunately that's the type we're dealing with here.  If it doesn't fit their ideals, it's "fake news" and conspiracy.
So people like Weilgus and Friedman don't have agendas?  Look back at Jamie Rappaport Clark too.
?  Yes I think they do.  However they are not "government" and a conspiracy theory involving a conservation group doing conservation things is not all that exciting. 

This was in reply to the previous post about totally stupid conspiracies

Offline HighlandLofts

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Re: Wolves Kill 154 Cows In Just One Northwest Minnesota County
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2018, 04:18:10 PM »
No conspiracy theory, Just stating facts about government reporting of facts.
If they have an agenda they produce facts to corroborate with what they want to do.
Some where in the ranks is a bunch of liberals who want WOLVES, PERIOD.
They can have them, but there are people on the other side that will mistake their pet project as a coyote and eliminate it as such. No intent to kill a prized wolf like these top government officials didn't intend to mislead the American people.

I will not hunt this State, The deer numbers just are not here.
You can see a ton of deer on posted property on the East Side, but what I see for deer here on the Wetside and what I see for deer else where in the Country I choose to hunt elsewhere, plus the cost of licenses elsewhere is cheaper then the hunting license here. Which you are being raped on.

I have no personal interest in the works of this liberal trade off, I just state facts.

One fact being there is already enough predators for the wildlife that inhabit this State with out importing others for a personal agenda. If the wolves are so ROMANTIC import them to King County, Pierce County and the Islands.

Anybody mistake a wolf for a coyote lately?
San Juans, Whidbey, Anacortes, Bainbridge and others.
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