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Author Topic: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails  (Read 8562 times)

Offline idahohuntr

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The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« on: January 10, 2018, 12:51:38 PM »
A very good synopsis of the Bundy fiasco.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/bundy-trial-when-justice-fails

When I was a kid in Idaho, a backwoods poacher named Claude Dallas gunned down two game wardens at his remote campsite in the Owyhees. He was convicted of manslaughter, broke out of jail, and lived a while on the lam.

Dallas became a folk hero to a stubborn but misguided group who seemed to believe in a mythological West where a cowboy hat, an anti-social attitude, and a gun were what made a man. But to anyone with a lick of sense, Dallas was just a thug playing cowboy.

This week, Cliven Bundy, of Nevada, and his sons join the ranks of western pseudo folk heroes. The irony is, Bundy was let out of jail by a judge who followed the letter of the law and the Constitution, ideas that Bundy openly defied.

Bundy owns a ranch near Bunkerville, Nev., and, like thousands of other western cattlemen, grazes his stock on public land – ground owned by the American people. But unlike virtually all those other ranchers, Bundy refused to pay the modest fee charged for grazing. Federal grazing fees are a pittance compared those charged for private land, and honest ranchers accept it as a pretty cheap way to fatten up a steer.

After grazing his cattle on public land for 21 years, Bundy racked up $1 million in outstanding fees. A judge ordered his cows off public ground in 2014. When law enforcement moved to execute the judge’s order, Bundy rallied an armed mob and held the police off at gunpoint. Rather than risk bloodshed, the feds backed off.

Four years later, Bundy sat in jail, awaiting trial for conspiracy. This week, a federal judge in Nevada dismissed the charges against Bundy and his sons. Not because of anything to do with cows and public land. Rather, Bundy went free because the federal prosecutors and the FBI so bungled the case that the judge determined there was no way Bundy could get a fair trial.

The U.S. Constitution, in theory, holds that it is better to set a potentially guilty person free than to risk imprisoning an innocent man because of inept or corrupt abuse of government power. So Bundy walks. As it should be.

Bundy emerged from jail defiant, pledging to keep on his battle against public lands.

“I don’t recognize the federal government to have authority, jurisdiction, no matter who the president is,” he told reporters.

Make no mistake. Bundy is no political prisoner. Bundy thumbed his nose at a federal judge who told him to get his cows off public land. He was charged because of his actions, not his beliefs.

Bundy posed on camera waving an American flag on horseback. But that was empty symbolism. His actions put him above the law, above the Constitution for which the flag stands. Ironically, his rights in the end were protected by that Constitution.

The Bunkerville fiasco sends a message that anyone can get away with breaking the law and not paying taxes, as long as they have a bunch of friends with rifles — and as long as they wear cowboy hats instead of hooded sweatshirts.

Imagine yourself in the position of a young law-enforcement officer working to safeguard our national forests and public lands from illegal abuse. This case must send a chill down your spine. Who, exactly, has your back?

Claude Dallas went back to prison and paid his debt to society. The Bundys’ fate is different.

Americans deserve answers. Both in Nevada and later in Oregon, the Bundys filmed themselves openly defying the law. Yet federal authorities screwed the pooch so badly they could not get a conviction. Americans of all political stripes should call for a bipartisan, open investigation to determine exactly what went wrong. The viability of our public lands and rule of law depend on an open accounting.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline slavenoid

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2018, 02:35:46 PM »
I agree good synopsis. And here comes the angry crowd of "true patriots"...

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2018, 02:45:11 PM »
I don't think the race baiting is accurate.  If anything, the 'hooded sweatshirts' got some serious passes--even more than the cowboy hats.  Baltimore "gave them space to destroy".  Ferguson overlooked inciting riots, riots and looting.  Law enforcement has to a degree vacated troublesome inner cities.  Look up the Ferguson Effect.  BLM got praises from presidential candidates, the Bundy crowd got undercover feds and all kinds of charges.  Prosecutors were pressured into charging Zimmerman and Wilson because of the DOJ, after investigations found they didn't break any laws.  Police get stand down orders when Antifa arrives.   :dunno:

Online elkchaser54

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 03:16:16 PM »
Bundy felt he shouldn't have to pay grazing fees because his family has been using that land for generations was his only reasoning.  There is a million conspiracies surrounding more information then that but when it comes down to it that is the main reason.  Doesn't wanting something for free make him a freeloader????

Offline boneaddict

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 08:17:38 AM »
It is coming.

I supported him.   I think in my mind basically because the  government abused their power in this.  The FBI seems to be bungling things left and right and appears to,not be held accountable in itself. 
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Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 08:36:57 AM »
Taken and changed from the above article to show what I mean...

 You own a house, and, like thousands of other western home owners, you have a well on private property – Water owned by the American people. But unlike virtually all those other homeowners, You refused to meter your well or pay the modest fee charged for your well. Federal water rights fees are a pittance compared those charged for municipalities/cities, and honest people who live in the country accept it as a pretty cheap way to have water.

After using public water for 21 years without a meter, you racked up $1 million in outstanding fees. A judge ordered to turn the power off to your well and irrigation pumps in 2014.

Read what is happening in Yakima County and elsewhere in the state.  It is coming....
Water is liquid gold. 

Offline Bushcraft

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 09:03:45 AM »
Want to make America a better place to live, raise a family and own a business?

  • Stop the senseless revolving door legal system. Put them away and turn hardened criminals into worm food.
  • Stop allowing progressive liberals and their anti-American legislative agenda into office where they can affect legislation.
  • Stop government waste at the local, state and national levels.

Liberalism is the philosophy of Western suicide.

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Offline Special T

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 09:14:51 AM »
If you want to look into our future....

Replace "grazing fees" and "grazing rights" with "water rights".  Imagine you live outside of a city and have a well or "irrigation rights" on your property and then read what you wrote once again.

Anyone who has a well for their home or irrigation "rights" on property you own this will affect you or you family in the future, it is coming.....

Bundy felt he shouldn't have to pay grazing fees because his family has been using that land for generations was his only reasoning.  There is a million conspiracies surrounding more information then that but when it comes down to it that is the main reason.  Doesn't wanting something for free make him a freeloader????
Bingo!

The discussion should revolve around the issue on rights. What is the history of the fees? What are the concepts of precedents, and grand father clauses?

It is very astute of you to compare this to water rights as this is a battle currently being fought in this state.

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Offline bearhunter99

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2018, 09:46:20 AM »
Taken and changed from the above article to show what I mean...

 You own a house, and, like thousands of other western home owners, you have a well on private property – Water owned by the American people. But unlike virtually all those other homeowners, You refused to meter your well or pay the modest fee charged for your well. Federal water rights fees are a pittance compared those charged for municipalities/cities, and honest people who live in the country accept it as a pretty cheap way to have water.

After using public water for 21 years without a meter, you racked up $1 million in outstanding fees. A judge ordered to turn the power off to your well and irrigation pumps in 2014.

Read what is happening in Yakima County and elsewhere in the state.  It is coming....

There is a big difference between what you are detailing and the Bundy fiasco.  Bundy uses the grazing rights to make money by raising and selling the cattle.  We use the water to be able to live.  Big difference. 
RIP Colockumelk   :salute:

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Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison

Offline cavemann

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2018, 09:55:05 AM »
Not all water is for sustainability...  Farmers use the water for livestock, irrigation and many other necessities for running a business (Farm).  It is exactly the same and in some respects even more scary..

Offline KFhunter

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 10:06:04 AM »
Not all water is for sustainability...  Farmers use the water for livestock, irrigation and many other necessities for running a business (Farm).  It is exactly the same and in some respects even more scary..

and growing pot, are those people called farmers?  I think it's a travesty to call them farmers, but they're using a bunch of water. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=pot+farm+water+usage&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS406&oq=pot+farm+water+usage&aqs=chrome..69i57.3879j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


California's 50,000 Pot Farms Are Sucking Rivers Dry
Each plant takes five gallons of water a day from legal and illegal water diversions

California lawmakers yesterday called for the regulation of marijuana farms to protect stream flows and help fish species like coho salmon and steelhead, which face possible extinction as the state's drought rages on.

In an informational hearing of the California State Senate Joint Committee of Fisheries and Aquaculture, Chairman Mike McGuire (D) of Healdsburg argued that a contingent of pot farmers in the state have disregarded the environment in favor of personal profit.

"Marijuana is literally sucking rivers dry," McGuire said.

Offline Special T

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 10:11:28 AM »
Bundy was watering cattle and wildlife, so I'm not really sure how unsustainable the practices are since they have been doing it for a LOoong time.

MY point is that the discussion SHOULD have been on property rights. Instead the issues was obfuscated and side lined because it did not push the adjenda.

These issues like Tortoises and "range fees" were tools to keep the discussion away from property rights. It would appear the purpose was so some shyster politicians could sell the land to a Chinese company....

I'm not sure if the Bundies have the Rights they say they do, so that legal discussion should be had.

Regardless of how you feel on the issue now, the outcome was one of 2 choices.
You end of with what some regard as a dead beat ranger on public land, OR that public land could have been sold to some private entities... Bundy being a dead beat or not, you can still hunt, rock hound, and access that land. Could you have  if it was sold off?

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Offline KFhunter

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2018, 10:33:28 AM »
I said this years ago, the Bundy's are not the champions of our rights.  They went about it all wrong, but there was no right way to do it.  Had they did it the right way they'd be off their ranch and none of us would have ever heard them slipping quietly away in the night like the other 72 cattle ranches that shared that grazing area.

They did bring this to the national spotlight, and perhaps history is full of imperfect martyrs, so I'll give them that. They did expose the abuses and incompetency of our government. 

We all know that there used to be many ranchers utilizing that massive public land area for grazing but BLM has systematically driven each and every rancher off that area, and they used things like ESA to do it, and they did it fraudulently.  The BLM was a tool used by politicians to run the cattlemen off the ranches.

Part of me disdains the Bundy's, but part of me thanks them. 


The Bundy's are a product of years of governmental abuse,  generations of government abuse, it's no wonder they hate the BLM and government so.

Offline M_ray

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2018, 10:58:39 AM »
 Compareing to water rights is apples to oranges. It would be a fair comparison if the Bundys weren’t paying for the grazing rights and one day they walked in and said now you pay??? The Bundy family paid grazing rights from the 40’s to the 90’s and then stopped paying while thousands of other ranchers still pay. Try not paying your taxes for 20 years and then pull a gun on them when they knock on your door to collect, I don’t think that would work out in your favor.

Yes there may have been mistakes made that resulted in his release. I wouldn’t be ready to award him with an innocent commendation let’s call it what it is, getting off on a technicality. Sorry I can’t support law breakers.
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Offline Special T

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2018, 11:15:59 AM »
Many of our political adversaries do not hamstring them selves with the perfect test case. They take to opportunity to move the ball. Some times they only gain a yard or 2 some times they run it all the way to the end zone. You can't win a foot ball game only passing to receivers  that are wide open.

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