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Author Topic: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails  (Read 5107 times)

Offline jmscon

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2018, 02:08:10 PM »
Unfortunately this is going to make more people feel entitled. Going unchecked and poorly prosecuted is sending a message that others should go ahead and do it too.

I know of a cattleman in NE WA who would voluntarily pay all the private land owners a fee to graze his cattle on their property. When he passed his son took over and decided he wasnít going to pay anyone. I was told he felt as though it was his right to graze his cattle up there. The private land owner canít demand a fee and has to build a fence to keep the cattle out. Some care others donít.

Greed is what has driven these people, not a statement on whether or not the government can own property, or whether they can charge a fee for grazing rights. Itís ďI want what you have and Iím not going to pay for it!Ē
My interpretation of the rules are open to interpretation.
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Offline KFhunter

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2018, 02:39:11 PM »
Unfortunately this is going to make more people feel entitled. Going unchecked and poorly prosecuted is sending a message that others should go ahead and do it too.

I know of a cattleman in NE WA who would voluntarily pay all the private land owners a fee to graze his cattle on their property. When he passed his son took over and decided he wasnít going to pay anyone. I was told he felt as though it was his right to graze his cattle up there. The private land owner canít demand a fee and has to build a fence to keep the cattle out. Some care others donít.

Greed is what has driven these people, not a statement on whether or not the government can own property, or whether they can charge a fee for grazing rights. Itís ďI want what you have and Iím not going to pay for it!Ē

My family used to lease quite a bit of private land and we paid for it.  Typically there was a good deal of fencing to sweeten the offer (this is where I came in  :chuckle:) and we ran a lot of new fence lines etc.  We never let cattle roam all around...

This is free range country though, so really (legally) it's the landowners onus to fence cattle out - rather then the other way around....but cattle end up dead doing it that way, and you end up with folks hating you, and hating your cows.  I'm not sure there is a place for free range in this country anymore, too many people now.

I've always held the notion that responsible cattlemen do all they can to control where their cattle are, reach out to adjacent property owners and either lease from them or keep their cows out of their property, it's just the right thing to do regardless of legality.   

Unfortunately there's a few who hold to the old notion that his cows can go wherever they darn well please.  It makes all of us look bad.


Offline DOUBLELUNG

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2018, 03:13:51 PM »
Justice didn't fail, unless you consider Justice shorthand for the US Department of Justice.  The DOJ failed.  Personally I think the Bundys are scum and crooks, but when scum and crooks are prosecuted and the prosecution bungles prosecuting the case through incompetence and malfeasance, judges properly dismiss the charges.  That is our Constitution at work.  I wish they had competently and legally prosecuted both the Oregon and Nevada cases, they didn't, and as an American I support the proper actions of the judges in these cases.  I also think it is a shame the crooks got off scot free, but that is solely on the US attorneys who improperly tried the cases. 

I hope BLM proceeds promptly with future trespass livestock grazing cases and they are competently prosecuted.  The Bundys are a cancer on the western livestock industry, and a slap in the face to honest law abiding ranchers who pay their fees to graze our federal lands.

I don't disagree with what you've said, but do you not think there were larger issues at play?  Do you think that the BLM was totally legit and above reproach in the actions leading up to the Bundy revolt and non-payment?   
No. And No.  But I don't agree with Cliven Bundy's actions, at the core I think they were driven by greed and laziness.  The rest was frustration and window dressing to try to justify nonpayment. 
As long as we have the habitat, we can argue forever about who gets to kill what and when.  No habitat = no game.

Offline Special T

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2018, 03:28:11 PM »
I'm no lawyer but my best guess is this.
The burden of proof normally resides with the person brining the lawsuit. The Bundies had 2 choices. 1 not pay and have the BLM sue them.  The BLM then has the burden of proof that the Bundies are breaking the law/overstepping thier property rights. ( remember water, mining, hunting  and other rights can be held without physical ownership).  If the Bundies brought the suit the burden of proof would be on them. They would have to finance the lawyers, researchers and all manner of resources to make the case.

In a perfect world they would have talked to an attourney before they quit paying, started keeping records, doing research, finding supportive documents. 10 years is a long time to do part time research. It also would have made it much easier and clearer to support them.

"We" want this kind of perfect senerio. It makes it much easier to support. The Bundies situation is a mess. Part of that is thier doing, a big part of it is BECAUSE of the alternative motives that were hidden from us, that are now more apparent.

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Offline KFhunter

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2018, 05:21:45 PM »

Phill I suggest you take it to the Bundy mega thread already going in Off Topics

Offline Special T

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2018, 05:30:19 PM »
Unfortunately  when the people loose trust in the system bad things happen. The system is based on trust and compliance by the citizenry.

If the courts and Leo's want more a complient/trustworthy  citizenry relationship some BIG heads need to roll.

With all the illegal maneuvering of politicians, DOJ, FBI, senators and such is there a bunch if surprise people are pushing back? PERHAPS  peoples distrust is unfounded on this issue, but the BLM and others sure didn't earn any respect or trust on this fiasco.

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« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 05:45:47 PM by KFhunter »
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Offline bigtex

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2018, 06:00:07 PM »
Has the true reasons ever really been published about why from the BLM on thier quest to kick the Bundyís off the land? Plus why the Bundyís quite paying, vs taking on the BLM in court. Wonder if weíll really ever know. :dunno:
:yeah:
I was just talking to someone about this a week or so ago. They were arguing in favor of the Bundy's and I asked why didn't they try to fight it in court first? Was it just stubbornness or....?
as I said before rudely interrupted by power hungry censors they did. the Courts ignored what they said or tried.
Read Ryan Bundies opening statement then.
So a court should just take one person's word right?

Wow if that was the case there would be a lot of "innocent" murderers wandering the streets.

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Offline KFhunter

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2018, 06:05:15 PM »
Quote
your not going to censor me
if so ban me then but I will post this and keep posting until you leave it. >:(

I asked you to take it to off topics, you ignored the request.  I cleaned up this thread already once and you put the same stuff back up.  If you need removed from HW so be it.

Offline CAMPMEAT

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2018, 07:04:09 PM »
It is coming.

I supported him.   I think in my mind basically because the  government abused their power in this.  The FBI seems to be bungling things left and right and appears to,not be held accountable in itself.


I still support the Bundys. One family stood up to the abuse of the corrupt government ( Bundy never rallied anybody ). They came to protect Cliven and his family from the unconstitutionally ran government, who overstepped the boundaries.
I could care less about what anybody says..............

Offline wolfbait

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2018, 07:29:23 PM »
It is coming.

I supported him.   I think in my mind basically because the  government abused their power in this.  The FBI seems to be bungling things left and right and appears to,not be held accountable in itself.


I still support the Bundys. One family stood up to the abuse of the corrupt government ( Bundy never rallied anybody ). They came to protect Cliven and his family from the unconstitutionally ran government, who overstepped the boundaries.



Uh no Bundies owned those water rights long before BLM stepped in. What do you call no more moo by 92 or cow free by 93 if the BLM wasn't trying to oust those Ranchers, and using practices that they knew would hurt the cattle ranchers later on.
No the true criminals are the Govt in this one.
As for technicalities go no not really... The prosecutor withheld evidence that was beneficial to the defense and they prosecutor had done it before as well, so yeah don't support law breakers, but the real law breakers are the Govt in this one not the Bundy's.


It is coming.

I supported him.   I think in my mind basically because the  government abused their power in this.  The FBI seems to be bungling things left and right and appears to,not be held accountable in itself.


I still support the Bundys. One family stood up to the abuse of the corrupt government ( Bundy never rallied anybody ). They came to protect Cliven and his family from the unconstitutionally ran government, who overstepped the boundaries.
danged strait campmeat.
If the Govt wasn't up to anything nefarious then why fence off places they knew cattle would need to be watered. Plus why does one need a permit to Graze anyhows that they've always grazed on freely?
But yeah the Bundy's are and were the victims in this one.


And let's not forget the Hammond's, another mess created by the corrupt BLM, USFWS, etc..

I hope it is all exposed right along with Uranium One, hillary/obama corruption.


I wonder the logic of those who support open corruption.

Offline jmscon

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2018, 07:52:54 PM »
Wow,

First, opening and closing statements donít get cases dismissed. They help paint a picture to the jury in favor of the side delivering it.

Second, BLM manages the land for the people. The grass, dirt, water, etc. are owned by the people, that does not mean anyone can do as they please on that property. And if someone is locked off that property for misuse then why would their cattle be allowed to water on it?

Third, gas, mineral, oil rights are leased to the companies that want to extract them. Grazing leases are basically buying the water and grass from the people. Could you imagine what would happen if I went onto national forest property and started cutting trees down and took them to a mill? I would be thrown in the can for stealing from the people! Shooting deer or elk out of season? Stealing from the people!

If these people had water and grazing rights they would have deeded property.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:26:10 PM by jmscon »
My interpretation of the rules are open to interpretation.
Once I thought I was wrong but I was mistaken.

Online h20hunter

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2018, 07:57:09 PM »
Stop that right now. Those type of facts and logic don't apply to tgese red blooded 'Mericans that were doing the right thing over all those years by grazing without paying. I read on www.patriotsofamericalandofthefreeliaderswearingcowboyhats.org that they are really really good people. Its the gubbernants fault!
Yes, my FJ is pink, I'm all about Team Jacob, beer is not for the horses nor is whiskey for the men, they are both for me.

Offline jmscon

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2018, 08:05:02 PM »
 :sry:
Carry on
My interpretation of the rules are open to interpretation.
Once I thought I was wrong but I was mistaken.

Offline bigtex

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2018, 08:24:03 PM »
Stop that right now. Those type of facts and logic don't apply to tgese red blooded 'Mericans that were doing the right thing over all those years by grazing without paying. I read on www.patriotsofamericalandofthefreeliaderswearingcowboyhats.org that they are really really good people. Its the gubbernants fault!
:yeah:

Facts don't belong on hunt-wa

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Offline Skillet

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2018, 08:39:20 PM »
Shouldn't this be in off-topics?
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Offline Special T

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2018, 08:42:01 PM »
Stop that right now. Those type of facts and logic don't apply to tgese red blooded 'Mericans that were doing the right thing over all those years by grazing without paying. I read on www.patriotsofamericalandofthefreeliaderswearingcowboyhats.org that they are really really good people. Its the gubbernants fault!
:yeah:

Facts don't belong on hunt-wa

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I would love for the lawsuit to have been over property rights. It would clear up a bunchbof things. This court case wasn't about that so speaking about it with any level of authority is speaking out your bung hole.



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Offline jmscon

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2018, 09:09:51 PM »
Those are not facts, hearsay quotes from a guy trying to get off.
The trial never went to the jury so jury nullification is not a factor nor was the judge instructing the jurors to come back with a verdict.
Another fact: the BLM was established in 1946 combining the General Land Office (est. 1812) and the US Grazing Service
My interpretation of the rules are open to interpretation.
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Offline KFhunter

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2018, 09:11:57 PM »
Shouldn't this be in off-topics?

There's numerous ongoing Bundy threads already in off topics, so this thread can stay here and the off topics guys can go back there. 

Offline bigtex

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2018, 09:12:39 PM »
Those are not facts, hearsay quotes from a guy trying to get off.
The trial never went to the jury so jury nullification is not a factor nor was the judge instructing the jurors to come back with a verdict.
Another fact: the BLM was established in 1946 combining the General Land Office (est. 1812) and the US Grazing Service
:yeah:

It's the equivalent of saying WDFW has only been around since 1994 and that's it. Failing to mention the depts of fisheries and wildlife/game that came before it.

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Offline idahohuntr

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2018, 09:16:48 PM »
Stop that right now. Those type of facts and logic don't apply to tgese red blooded 'Mericans that were doing the right thing over all those years by grazing without paying. I read on www.patriotsofamericalandofthefreeliaderswearingcowboyhats.org that they are really really good people. Its the gubbernants fault!
:yeah:

Facts don't belong on hunt-wa

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I would love for the lawsuit to have been over property rights. It would clear up a bunchbof things. This court case wasn't about that so speaking about it with any level of authority is speaking out your bung hole.



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Bundy did argue in court numerous times his property rights claims...he lost every time.

The case of United States v. Bundy played out over many years in the United States District Court for the District of Nevada. It involved court orders, injunctions, and notices. Bundy argued pro se (without a lawyer) that the land belongs to the state. The Bureau of Land Management was represented by the U.S. Attorney's Office for Nevada and the United States Department of Justice.[18] District Judge Larry R. Hicks ruled that the land on which Bundy was grazing his cattle was indeed owned by the federal government, that Bundy had not been paying to use it as he should have been, that Bundy was trespassing, and that the government had the right to enforce the injunctions against trespass. Hicks found that Bundy had repeatedly violated court orders.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2018, 09:18:02 PM »
Shouldn't this be in off-topics?

There's numerous ongoing Bundy threads already in off topics, so this thread can stay here and the off topics guys can go back there.
Thank you. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline bigtex

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2018, 09:41:07 PM »
Stop that right now. Those type of facts and logic don't apply to tgese red blooded 'Mericans that were doing the right thing over all those years by grazing without paying. I read on www.patriotsofamericalandofthefreeliaderswearingcowboyhats.org that they are really really good people. Its the gubbernants fault!
:yeah:

Facts don't belong on hunt-wa

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I would love for the lawsuit to have been over property rights. It would clear up a bunchbof things. This court case wasn't about that so speaking about it with any level of authority is speaking out your bung hole.



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Bundy did argue in court numerous times his property rights claims...he lost every time.

The case of United States v. Bundy played out over many years in the United States District Court for the District of Nevada. It involved court orders, injunctions, and notices. Bundy argued pro se (without a lawyer) that the land belongs to the state. The Bureau of Land Management was represented by the U.S. Attorney's Office for Nevada and the United States Department of Justice.[18] District Judge Larry R. Hicks ruled that the land on which Bundy was grazing his cattle was indeed owned by the federal government, that Bundy had not been paying to use it as he should have been, that Bundy was trespassing, and that the government had the right to enforce the injunctions against trespass. Hicks found that Bundy had repeatedly violated court orders.
:yeah:

But hey what does a court ruling mean anyways...

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Offline Mudman

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2018, 10:35:36 PM »
I thank Hillary for this mess!  I'm thrilled Russia got their uranium and we killed citizens in the process!  If Clinton wasn't in office would any of this happened????  Hmm, sumthin to think bout.  Support your Rancher or eat Tofu! :chuckle:
Drain The Swamp!!!

Offline bigtex

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2018, 10:56:03 PM »


I thank Hillary for this mess!  I'm thrilled Russia got their uranium and we killed citizens in the process!  If Clinton wasn't in office would any of this happened????  Hmm, sumthin to think bout.  Support your Rancher or eat Tofu! :chuckle:

So it started in 1993 during the Clinton admin, went thru the Bush admin, then into the Obama admin. Can't blame a single party on this one.

CitizenS? No only Lavoy Finicum died and would've done so if he pulled his antics in any other law enforcement contact but that's besides the point.

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Re: The Bundy Trial: When Justice Fails
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2018, 11:23:16 PM »
I said this years ago, the Bundy's are not the champions of our rights.  They went about it all wrong, but there was no right way to do it.  Had they did it the right way they'd be off their ranch and none of us would have ever heard them slipping quietly away in the night like the other 72 cattle ranches that shared that grazing area.

They did bring this to the national spotlight, and perhaps history is full of imperfect martyrs, so I'll give them that. They did expose the abuses and incompetency of our government. 

We all know that there used to be many ranchers utilizing that massive public land area for grazing but BLM has systematically driven each and every rancher off that area, and they used things like ESA to do it, and they did it fraudulently.  The BLM was a tool used by politicians to run the cattlemen off the ranches.

Part of me disdains the Bundy's, but part of me thanks them. 


The Bundy's are a product of years of governmental abuse,  generations of government abuse, it's no wonder they hate the BLM and government so.

I have to agree with you whole heartedly KF.  In spite of how you feel about people ignoring "the law", what the Bundys did was really the only choice they had to go on ranching. Anything else and they were SOL as you pointed out the result was for the other 72 ranches in the area.  This wasn't about unpaid fees. That is just the way the government framed it to make the Bundys look like deadbeats and garner public support. This was about pushing them off of this land. As you said, their actual lease was small. And they paid it for 20 years before the government tried to force them out with the tortoises.  The only reason the "bill" got to $1.2 million was because in 1998 there was a fine added to their lease of $200 a day per cow.  That too was done to force them to leave, but I'll say one thing for them, they are stubborn.

As it turned out though, the things done by the BLM and the prosecutors were illegal and in some cases dangerous too. Now if you already have the law on your side, why would you be so ignorant and arrogant as to do something illegal and ruin your case? (Unless you think you can get away with it.) So they were either stupid or corrupt.  A system that respects the law can't have the enforcers of the law breaking the law or it falls apart. The law ceases to mean anything if the ones charged with upholding it can break or disregard it at will. And that is why this case was thrown out.  Believe what you want about the Bundys, but the government has a whole lot of fault here.

The big question now is, where does all this go from here and how will it be resolved?
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[Today at 05:22:44 PM]


FS 2017 bowtech reign 7 60-70lb Sitka elevated II by nwhunter
[Today at 05:19:57 PM]


Guided Elk.....where would you go? by SteelheadTed
[Today at 05:18:08 PM]


Primos Terminator and stove by shmacker
[Today at 05:14:22 PM]


Pay it Forward by shmacker
[Today at 05:09:58 PM]


Two custom flintlock rifles for sale by teanawayslayer
[Today at 05:09:09 PM]


Rifle/Scope Combo - Change my mind by superdown
[Today at 05:02:38 PM]