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Author Topic: 209 Muzzy's In Washington  (Read 3429 times)

Offline CP

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2018, 10:13:19 AM »
My Bighorn came with the 209 breach plug and the red plastics jackets, but then I have several hundred musket caps that I need to do something with.  I'll probably just keep things the way they are.


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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2018, 10:28:31 AM »
I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.

Offline gutsnthegrass

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2018, 02:32:33 PM »
I have a western disc extreme.  What all do I need to make it 209?  I assume you would be able to go through Knight? 

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2018, 03:21:44 PM »
I already have the 209 conversion kit with my Knight Disc Extreme & have used it on a New Mexico hunt so I would use them if legal in WA.

 Same load used in both cases? If so, does it change your accuracy either way?


Can't remember load for sure but also used Blackhorn 209 powder with the 209a Federal shotshell primer. I switched out the breech plug along with the bolt for the muzzy. I also had a scope mounted for the hunt.

One advantage was less fowling using the 209 powder and less reload time skipping the patching on followup shots. I did use the same 290 grain ez load bullets.

Offline HookedOnQuack

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2018, 03:45:15 PM »
I won a Muzzy4-5 years ago at a RMEF banquet and held onto it in hopes it would someday be legal here, guess its time to start practicing!

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2018, 04:23:30 PM »
I have a western disc extreme.  What all do I need to make it 209?  I assume you would be able to go through Knight?

You will need a bolt housing and breech plug.  Breech Plug has to be one for a DISC not the Mountaineer.  The bolt housing you get from Knight will have primer rails on the face of the bolt. You will slide the primer in those rails then close the bolt to insert the primer into the breech plug...

The top bolt shown in this picture is the old style bolt with a primer adapter installed.  Knight no longer sales this part.



This is the way it all use to go together - this is what is called the 'bare primer system'



This picture shows the new bolt setup. It shows the primer rails on the face of the bolt and pic with the primer in the rails.  This is the 'bare primer setup.



Knight also offers a FJP system with a a primer insterted in a red plastic jacket and the assembly is dropped in to the opening on the bolt.







Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline jackelope

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2018, 09:11:17 PM »
I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.
Youíll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. Thatís the breaks.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Online JimmyHoffa

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2018, 09:50:05 AM »
I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.
Youíll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. Thatís the breaks.
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2018, 11:03:36 AM »
So if this goes through, we can have the muzzyís that have the breech completely protected?  Another question, are 209 primers that much better than a musket cap, and can my Thompson center xr.50 be converted to a 209??

It can be converted - but it would still have a dirty breech area and to honest I would stay with cap ignition in that rifle - BUT I would quickly switch away from a Musket Cap to a #11 Mag cap or better yet the RWS Dynamit Noble 1075+ cap.  The #11 Mag cap burns in the same heat range as does the Musket and way hotter than the new Re-Enactment Musket Caps.  The 1075+ German cap is even hotter than the CCI #11 Mag.

http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=03403
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline trophyhunt

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2018, 11:16:55 AM »
So if this goes through, we can have the muzzyís that have the breech completely protected?  Another question, are 209 primers that much better than a musket cap, and can my Thompson center xr.50 be converted to a 209??

It can be converted - but it would still have a dirty breech area and to honest I would stay with cap ignition in that rifle - BUT I would quickly switch away from a Musket Cap to a #11 Mag cap or better yet the RWS Dynamit Noble 1075+ cap.  The #11 Mag cap burns in the same heat range as does the Musket and way hotter than the new Re-Enactment Musket Caps.  The 1075+ German cap is even hotter than the CCI #11 Mag.

http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=03403
I was hoping you'd chime in on this thread, thank you. 
ďIn common withĒ..... not so much!!

Offline bobcat

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2018, 12:35:19 PM »
I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.
Youíll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. Thatís the breaks.
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.

Offline buglebrush

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2018, 12:56:50 PM »
I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.
Youíll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. Thatís the breaks.
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.

Huge huge difference between a Muzzy and Modern.  I can't take anyone seriously who says otherwise.  :sry:

In the rainforests I hunt I've had misfires cost me two bulls, and yes I do all the correct things to prevent that from happening.   It can and probably will still happen, but you have a more reasonable expectation of your gun firing which with how hard it is to get a shot opportunity, that is a very good thing.  I'm totally for this even though I'm predominantly an archery hunter. 

Offline jackelope

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2018, 01:09:58 PM »
I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.
You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.

Huge huge difference between a Muzzy and Modern.  I can't take anyone seriously who says otherwise.  :sry:

In the rainforests I hunt I've had misfires cost me two bulls, and yes I do all the correct things to prevent that from happening.   It can and probably will still happen, but you have a more reasonable expectation of your gun firing which with how hard it is to get a shot opportunity, that is a very good thing.  I'm totally for this even though I'm predominantly an archery hunter. 

But you're hunting with old school caps that are exposed to the elements. This is apples and oranges when compared to sealed 209 ignition.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline buglebrush

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2018, 01:19:14 PM »
I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.
But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.
Youíll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. Thatís the breaks.
Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.

Huge huge difference between a Muzzy and Modern.  I can't take anyone seriously who says otherwise.  :sry:

In the rainforests I hunt I've had misfires cost me two bulls, and yes I do all the correct things to prevent that from happening.   It can and probably will still happen, but you have a more reasonable expectation of your gun firing which with how hard it is to get a shot opportunity, that is a very good thing.  I'm totally for this even though I'm predominantly an archery hunter. 

But you're hunting with old school caps that are exposed to the elements. This is apples and oranges when compared to sealed 209 ignition.

My comment regarding the huge huge difference between a muzzy and modern had nothing to do with ignition.  My second paragraph is why I am for 209, but the vast difference between muzzy and Modern has very very little to do with that. 

I can consistently and comfortably hit a deer at 700+ yards with my modern, but wouldn't attempt much over 100 yards with my muzzy.  Enormous difference.  Now, you may hunt with an open sighted lever gun, but that's your choice.  You could also hunt modern season with a long-bow, but that's up to you.   I stand by my statement regarding Muzzy being vastly inferior to Modern. 

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2018, 02:08:19 PM »
Quote
jackelope

But you're hunting with old school caps that are exposed to the elements in inclement weather. This is apples and oranges when compared to sealed 209 ignition.

But what ML hunter in the northwest even leaves the caps exposed to the elements.  Not even the real old timers did that!  The rule says that the manufacturer can not provide a part on the rifle that covers your cap and ignitions elements - that does not mean that you can't protect the the breech and it is really so easy...

One way that I have used in the past is simply wrap the breech area





Another way is to choose the correct nipple fit... well you can do do this with a #11 cap not so much much with a Musket Cap



This a test I conducted to test my theory...



Another thougt to share - not all 209 ignition systems are water/weather proof - in fact many of them will leak...

Just changing the ignition system and yet complying with the other rules of the PacNorWest do not make the 209 inline anymore effective than any of my TC Renegades...

What I can do do with this rifle.... with a 209 ignition



I can also do with this rifle...




Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline SuperX

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2018, 04:38:28 PM »
seems like the only difference between a muzzle loader in WA and a Sharps .50 cal is an ounce of brass  :dunno:

Offline steeleywhopper

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2018, 05:55:46 PM »
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, Iím sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. Iím all for another ignition option personally.

Offline Duckslayer89

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2018, 06:17:42 PM »
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, Iím sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. Iím all for another ignition option personally.

Funny all these guys who donít muzzleload trying to claim itís like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.

Offline hunter399

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2018, 06:34:10 PM »
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, Iím sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. Iím all for another ignition option personally.

Funny all these guys who donít muzzleload trying to claim itís like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
I will admit I was not for 209 primers,i do hunt modern most years lately due to taking kids on first hunting trips past few years.The new remington muzzle loader 300 yards is not primitive weapon or short range at all,But remember in the next few years if harvest numbers go way high on muzzle loaders,you may feel the effects of modern technology as in,

Reduced seasons
Reduced permits
Less opportunities
And other regulations,and seasons to control harvest numbers .
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Online JimmyHoffa

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2018, 06:54:51 PM »
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, Iím sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. Iím all for another ignition option personally.

Funny all these guys who donít muzzleload trying to claim itís like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
I do muzzy with .54 sidelock great plains rifle.  Take a look at that Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader.  It has 2400 fps muzzle velocity with a 250 gr bullet, that's close to .35 Whelen.  The muzzleloader doesn't have the BC to keep up with the Whelen.  It starts off better than a lot of other popular rifles. 

Offline Duckslayer89

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2018, 07:09:02 PM »
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, Iím sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. Iím all for another ignition option personally.

Funny all these guys who donít muzzleload trying to claim itís like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
I will admit I was not for 209 primers,i do hunt modern most years lately due to taking kids on first hunting trips past few years.The new remington muzzle loader 300 yards is not primitive weapon or short range at all,But remember in the next few years if harvest numbers go way high on muzzle loaders,you may feel the effects of modern technology as in,

Reduced seasons
Reduced permits
Less opportunities
And other regulations,and seasons to control harvest numbers .

Ya well you will feel all of those effects with the amount of predators roaming around too and everyone can point fingers. I highly doubt a 209 primer is going to increase harvest success a substantial amount. Probably not even noticeable. Besides maybe more people switching over out of curiousity. We saw an EQUAL amount of cougars as elk this year archery hunting 356. 3 elk total and 3 cougars in 5 days. Not one deer. Many many miles covered and glassed. William Douglas wilderness area mostly.

Offline GoldenRing270

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2018, 07:19:37 PM »
I would like it to stay the way it is and I hunt with a muzzy on the westside. If we allow 209's then whats next? Scopes? Closed breech? There is a lot of long range muzzleloader talk these days with the new Remington being introduced. Say the 209's become legal then 5 years from now scopes are legal and guys are taking deer at 300 yards. Why would a muzzleloader hunter deserve to get the first crack at deer. At that point they may just lump muzzy and modern hunters together for a mid October 14 day season. I like it the way it is. If it is dumping rain I've got electrical tape over my muzzle and breech. It hasn't failed me yet but if and when it ever does that is part of the muzzleloader hunters challenge and that is part of the reason muzzleloaders get to be the first weapons that go bang in the woods.

Offline hunter399

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2018, 07:33:26 PM »
My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, Iím sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. Iím all for another ignition option personally.

Funny all these guys who donít muzzleload trying to claim itís like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.
I will admit I was not for 209 primers,i do hunt modern most years lately due to taking kids on first hunting trips past few years.The new remington muzzle loader 300 yards is not primitive weapon or short range at all,But remember in the next few years if harvest numbers go way high on muzzle loaders,you may feel the effects of modern technology as in,

Reduced seasons
Reduced permits
Less opportunities
And other regulations,and seasons to control harvest numbers .

Ya well you will feel all of those effects with the amount of predators roaming around too and everyone can point fingers. I highly doubt a 209 primer is going to increase harvest success a substantial amount. Probably not even noticeable. Besides maybe more people switching over out of curiousity. We saw an EQUAL amount of cougars as elk this year archery hunting 356. 3 elk total and 3 cougars in 5 days. Not one deer. Many many miles covered and glassed. William Douglas wilderness area mostly.
When they do decide to reduce harvest there gonna say to protect populations from over harvest,not because of ignition.

I'm happy to see sportsmen win a battle for the better good of the sport. :tup:
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Duckslayer89

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2018, 08:25:13 PM »
I would like it to stay the way it is and I hunt with a muzzy on the westside. If we allow 209's then whats next? Scopes? Closed breech? There is a lot of long range muzzleloader talk these days with the new Remington being introduced. Say the 209's become legal then 5 years from now scopes are legal and guys are taking deer at 300 yards. Why would a muzzleloader hunter deserve to get the first crack at deer. At that point they may just lump muzzy and modern hunters together for a mid October 14 day season. I like it the way it is. If it is dumping rain I've got electrical tape over my muzzle and breech. It hasn't failed me yet but if and when it ever does that is part of the muzzleloader hunters challenge and that is part of the reason muzzleloaders get to be the first weapons that go bang in the woods.

I donít think itís legal to cover your breech... but Iím not 100% on that.

Offline GoldenRing270

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Re: 209 Muzzy's In Washington
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2018, 09:14:46 PM »
It is legal to tape your muzzle and breech.

 

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[Today at 02:10:32 PM]


My dog Copper in the Snow by HunterofWA
[Today at 02:06:19 PM]


For Sale- Kuiu Icon Pro 1850 and frame $200 by MrE4853
[Today at 01:38:55 PM]


Rough start to the 17 Upland Season by fethrduster
[Today at 01:37:26 PM]


Wtb Ruger M77 .243 by mtnwkr
[Today at 01:26:05 PM]


WTS: Aero Precision AR-15 partial build by Antlershed
[Today at 01:15:16 PM]


Bucket List Hunt by ballstothewaal
[Today at 01:14:18 PM]


11 year Old daughters first Bear by Gringo31
[Today at 01:13:14 PM]


Capitol Forest coyotes by ThomMedic
[Today at 12:48:44 PM]


Wyoming back door? by Stein
[Today at 12:45:30 PM]


WDFW wolf consultant gets paid by huntnphool
[Today at 12:40:56 PM]


Fs Hammock tent and pack by Keebler213
[Today at 12:40:12 PM]


"Cougar Pete" Peterson by bigmacc
[Today at 12:38:39 PM]


Can anyone help me identify this animal sound? by pianoman9701
[Today at 12:34:57 PM]


Utv/Atv Pics thread! by jkthomps
[Today at 12:31:32 PM]


Found a Surprise at Oak Creek Feeding Station by CP
[Today at 12:02:46 PM]