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Author Topic: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property  (Read 1068 times)

Offline wolfbait

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Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« on: January 30, 2018, 01:44:18 PM »

Offline BULLBLASTER

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2018, 01:57:13 PM »
No much new there. Iíve seen them decommission and destroy 20+ year old road beds that are overgrown with trees having 8-12 inch trunks. No way even a atv could have driven on them.

Offline Woodchuck

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2018, 02:01:15 PM »
 :yeah: Been happening in the blues for years.
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Offline gaddy

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2018, 02:36:55 PM »
In most cases it is a total waste of time and money in my opinion. I have seen a couple that were tore up so bad you couldn't walk on them. I could see maybe a  short stretch to keep vehicles off but why go on for miles ? How much would it cost for labor, fuel, equipment and support for a day, times how many days or weeks ?

Offline mfswallace

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2018, 03:46:12 PM »
Any update since this was 9months ago ??
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Offline elkinrutdrivemenuts

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2018, 04:35:41 PM »
https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=f5f455c2c4d14496adc46ba2a1902dd1

Great way to see what roads are open to what kind of vehicles.  The East Fork of Eagle creek is only open 1.8 miles.  The old road goes much farther back up the creek.  Its probably been closed for awhile but its common practice over here in Idaho to ride around signs or gates if you can. 

Offline Cylvertip

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2018, 04:37:53 PM »
With the way they decommission them here on the Wetside, I am sure this had nothing specifically to do with the gold prospectors association.  The supposed illegal creek crossing and go around probably was a catalyst, but that is not necessarily by the prospectors.  :twocents:   

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Offline Knocker of rocks

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2018, 05:16:54 PM »
With the way they decommission them here on the Wetside, I am sure this had nothing specifically to do with the gold prospectors association.  The supposed illegal creek crossing and go around probably was a catalyst, but that is not necessarily by the prospectors.  :twocents:   

Iíve thought the decommission effort over here was way too intensive.  Then I heard a discussion on KIRO 710 NW Outdoors,  and they were strident that leaving culverts is very detrimental to salmon.  Neither of those hosts could be referred to as ďgreeniesĒ,  but tearing up the roads as they do sure makes walking difficult.

Offline Special T

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2018, 05:31:01 PM »
Decommissioning roads should consist of pulling culverts and adding water bars but leaving the bed fairly usable. Making the first couple hundred yards impassable to anything but foot traffic. Who knows when your going to need them for fire fighting...

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Offline jmscon

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2018, 05:38:05 PM »
Decommissioning roads should consist of pulling culverts and adding water bars but leaving the bed fairly usable. Making the first couple hundred yards impassable to anything but foot traffic. Who knows when your going to need them for fire fighting...

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Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2018, 05:47:41 PM »
We have several of these NEPA project roads in my area. The USFS went in and pulled the culverts putting in water bars but not totally destroying the roads. Their justification for doing this was they said the culvert were plugged running down the roads an causing sedimentation to go into the streams and rivers. It supposedly also reduced their road maintenance cost which I disagreed with. During the comment period on some of the road I was interested in I put out word on hiking, hunting, etc forums to get people to write in and ask that atleast a trail was provided on the roads which they agreed with. They just want to do away with as many roads as possible and its not like they do much maintenance. The general public does a lot by cutting out logs and cleaning culverts. :twocents:

Offline Alan K

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2018, 06:29:11 PM »
They could sell a single timber sale and pay for the entire forests maintenance for the year, nevermind the benefit it does for local jobs. They have been so delinquent on their routine maintenance that they can now say it'll cost too much to fix. I really do believe that a large contingent of folks inside the USFS, nevermind the environmental groups that hang over their shoulder, want to turn our public lands into wilderness areas.

Offline Humptulips

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2018, 09:23:45 PM »
They could sell a single timber sale and pay for the entire forests maintenance for the year, nevermind the benefit it does for local jobs. They have been so delinquent on their routine maintenance that they can now say it'll cost too much to fix. I really do believe that a large contingent of folks inside the USFS, nevermind the environmental groups that hang over their shoulder, want to turn our public lands into wilderness areas.

Well, not really. My friend who I sometimes work for, bid on a culvert job as in replacement of one culvert. 18" culvert on a fairly steep hillside. Year round creek but just a trickle. Justification for replacement was the culvert had a downspout and the FS decided because it was year around water it needed to be at original grade of creek. I think they upgraded to a 24" culvert. A fish would have needed climbing gear to get up this creek.
Cost $700,000
Another creek, a good sized one had a big culvert upgraded from culvert to bridge for fish migration. Trouble is there are three impassable falls below the new bridge, one visible from the road.
Cost $1,200,000
I could go on.
The reason they do this is because these fish related projects don't come out of their budget. They are separate appropriations. Maintenance comes out of their budget. Plus they can move FS personnel working on these off budget so they can keep people working they don't actually have money for in their budget.
And the timber sales, the way they run them they are lucky to break even.
I helped rebuild some roads on one timber sale. The roads were perfectly usable. In fact the logger wanted to start work before we finished but the FS would not approve the use of the roads until all new culverts were installed. Bear in mind there was no water in any of the culverts. We finally got done and the logger finished and then a month later paid a person to come in and decommission them. You could drive a dump with a pup the length of the roads before we started work. Now you can barely walk them.
All their requirements drive up the cost to the point there is no profit to be made by the FS. One guy I know bought several big thinning sales. He told me average cost was $2 per thousand. he ended up letting most of them go back because it was breaking him.
Most sales go for a lot more then that but still the FS doesn't see much of it beyond paying their associated costs. 
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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2018, 09:37:41 PM »
They could sell a single timber sale and pay for the entire forests maintenance for the year, nevermind the benefit it does for local jobs. They have been so delinquent on their routine maintenance that they can now say it'll cost too much to fix. I really do believe that a large contingent of folks inside the USFS, nevermind the environmental groups that hang over their shoulder, want to turn our public lands into wilderness areas.
w

Well of course they do. It's the re-wilding project. It's Agenda 21. Read about it here
http://www.independentsentinel.com/agenda-21-a-plan-to-take-your-land-and-give-it-to-tortoises-and-pagosa-skyrockets/

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2018, 05:34:50 AM »
They could sell a single timber sale and pay for the entire forests maintenance for the year, nevermind the benefit it does for local jobs. They have been so delinquent on their routine maintenance that they can now say it'll cost too much to fix. I really do believe that a large contingent of folks inside the USFS, nevermind the environmental groups that hang over their shoulder, want to turn our public lands into wilderness areas.
Timber sales was the number one suggestion by a group I was involved in when the USFS was looking for suggestions on paying for road maintenance and keeping roads open. But they have a limited amount of personnel for setting up the Timber sales. For one timber sale in my area they had to borrow personnel from another ranger district. Then throw in the fact Cantwell and Murray keep creating and expanding Wilderness areas.

Offline Alan K

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2018, 06:59:41 AM »
Most of their offices have shifted to be loaded with specialized 'ologists' as opposed to foresters, then conveniently don't have the personel to do layout. Put out another timber sale and you've got the revenue for a full staff of foresters for the year.

Humptulips, those funds you speak of for 'restoration' projects are likely coming from stewardship sales, which most of the forests are shifting to since it's a workaround that can get dollars back to the forest itself.  I've bid dozens of these sales, and you're right, the costs are out of control, mainly because of self imposed restrictions. I'd imagine the costs of those pipes/bridges are largely due to the over-engineering and 'weed free' rock.  One large project we did required rock from a certified weed free rock source. The nearest was something like 35 miles away. There was perfectly good rock showing in the bank right next to the project... It's so disappointing that these pipes and bridges that are bought and installed on private timberlands for 25-75k cost 750k+ for the USFS.

I can have a road cleared of windfall, ditched and culvert inlets cleaned for about $1500/mile pretty easy. In this market, even a thinning sale with some hindering restrictions should bring $300/M stumpage. Sell 5 million feet and you could do 1000 miles of maintenace. And what'll really make you want to puke... A retired forester from the GP told me it has 1 billion board feet of sustainable growth annually. While their cut has ticked up, its still only like 30 million feet a year...  :yike:

Offline Special T

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2018, 12:20:12 PM »
@Logger

He has once said there were several open logging contracts that nobody has bid because part of the cost was the complete removal of road bed upon completion.



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Offline timberfaller

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2018, 01:17:54 PM »
If you knew the "process" for putting out a timber sale in today's world,  you would understand WHO is in charge of the USFS.

This just didn't happen yesterday,  its started way back in the 70's.   Its only gotten worse as time has ticked by.

Last "sale" I seen the paper work on(mid 2000) was crazy,   if you'd been the faller on it, You'd better have tennis shoes on and a very small saw!!( I logged the area off in the late 70's already!)  the "controllers" only want old logging sale areas reopen, NO new sale areas.

The ONLY way the sale was "allowed" to be put out for bid,(by the powers that control) there HAD to be road abandonment(the more miles the better) and any "new" road work had to be destroyed before sale was finalized!
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Offline gaddy

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2018, 03:23:11 PM »
Aside from timber sales and stream beds (which I know nothing about) Why would anyone take an old logging road, that has existed for well over 30+ years, been gated or blocked off, had nothing but foot traffic, is up in the mountains, far away from any streams and having no effect on fish what so ever, grate it up like they used a giant rototiller for miles and then dump trees on it ? It makes no sense to me. Not even the animals can use it after they are done.

Offline Humptulips

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2018, 03:52:47 PM »
Aside from timber sales and stream beds (which I know nothing about) Why would anyone take an old logging road, that has existed for well over 30+ years, been gated or blocked off, had nothing but foot traffic, is up in the mountains, far away from any streams and having no effect on fish what so ever, grate it up like they used a giant rototiller for miles and then dump trees on it ? It makes no sense to me. Not even the animals can use it after they are done.

Because it keeps a FS person working. They don't have the budget for a lot of stuff but they can get money for as Alan said restoration. If the money is available they will spend it and if the only way they are allowed to spend it is tearing up roads they will find roads to tear up.
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Offline elkinrutdrivemenuts

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2018, 04:31:38 PM »
Aside from timber sales and stream beds (which I know nothing about) Why would anyone take an old logging road, that has existed for well over 30+ years, been gated or blocked off, had nothing but foot traffic, is up in the mountains, far away from any streams and having no effect on fish what so ever, grate it up like they used a giant rototiller for miles and then dump trees on it ? It makes no sense to me. Not even the animals can use it after they are done.

If you are referring to the road in the article, it was opposite of everything you just said.  It follows Eagle Creek, the culverts were washed out during a flood, and was closed to motor vehicles.  People had disregarded the fact that it was closed and kept using motor vehicles on it and doing their own thing.  Gates don't mean much to locals around here, they will find away around a barricade anyway they can.   

Offline gaddy

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Re: Forest Service Demolishes Access to Private Property
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2018, 04:45:19 PM »
I was referring to road closures and decommissioning in general. I spend all my time in the Blues and don't see the damage you see in other areas.

 

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