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Author Topic: Atlantic Salmon  (Read 2503 times)

Offline trophyelk6x6

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Atlantic Salmon
« on: January 31, 2018, 06:45:07 PM »
Seems like even though they are drones in a pen, their genetic instincs are taking them into our rivers. I got this article while up in Campbell River BC last week. Seen it in a local Islander News article.  Got my attention when it referenced our last pen disaster off Bainbridge Island.  Those fish can swim just fine LOL. 

Offline trophyelk6x6

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2018, 06:47:50 PM »
let me know if the attachment doesn't open ok, I will try to figure it out.

Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2018, 06:51:53 PM »
The fish from the most recent disaster ARE NOT SPAWNING!  They were too young to spawn this year, simple biology....

Offline Fungunnin

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2018, 08:20:39 PM »
Millions of Atlantic Salmon have been released on the pacific coast and not one reproducing population has taken hold.

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Offline h2ofowlr

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2018, 08:30:16 PM »
They sure were fun to catch though!   :tup:
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Offline Skillet

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2018, 09:04:22 PM »
The fish from the most recent disaster ARE NOT SPAWNING!  They were too young to spawn this year, simple biology....

If that's what Cooke Aquaculture is telling us, forgive me my skepticism.  They are having a harder time telling the truth than a Clinton.

Millions of Atlantic Salmon have been released on the pacific coast and not one reproducing population has taken hold.

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I do hope that stays true.  Our fisheries can't afford another blow - especially Puget Sound kings.
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Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2018, 04:27:38 PM »
The fish from the most recent disaster ARE NOT SPAWNING!  They were too young to spawn this year, simple biology....

If that's what Cooke Aquaculture is telling us, forgive me my skepticism.  They are having a harder time telling the truth than a Clinton.

Millions of Atlantic Salmon have been released on the pacific coast and not one reproducing population has taken hold.

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I do hope that stays true.  Our fisheries can't afford another blow - especially Puget Sound kings.

No need to hear a word from them.  Anyone with a brain could tell that the egg masses were not mature enough for them to spawn this season.

Offline Skillet

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2018, 05:04:26 PM »
Not everyone who cares about this (even those with brains) were able to catch these fish and make the same observations as you, Loki.  I, however, have seen the guts out of tens of thousands of pacific salmon over the last four years, and I can assure you that the rapid increase of gamete size towards the spawn would surprise most folks.  I'm assuming that you are experienced enough to make an intelligent observation about this, however, and I'll go along that you are correct that these fish you caught weren't yet ready to spawn.

But why did they run the rivers, if not to spawn?  I have seen no information that says Atlantics take sightseeing tours up rivers en masse.  What was observed 40+ miles up the Skagit seems far above the normal percentange of native jacks that run the rivers.

As evident as it must be to you that these fish couldn't spawn this year, it must be something you accept that they will soon grow and mature to spawning age, yes?  They've already proven they'll run the rivers, so it's not like they couldn't spawn for either lack of maturity or habitat at that point.

A final question - It seems counter-intuitive to me that you, a San Juan Islands resident, would be so in favor of fish farming to the point of not being able to acknowledge this as a negative event in for Puget Sound salmon.  There is no way this release is going to improve the pacific salmon situation in the Puget Sound, and therefore is a direct threat to your enjoyment of the native resources in your home waters.  Would you humor me with some enlightenment on your support of farming non-native stocks in our waters?  You seem like a very intelligent man, and I respect your contributions to this site - but I am puzzled by this strong position you've taken supporting Cooke Aquaculture.
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Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2018, 06:00:04 PM »
Sure.  I have seen no credible evidence that these fish, or the farms, are actually having a detrimental effect on the native salmon.  There have been similar fish farms in the area for forty years including attempts in the late 1800's to actually establish runs and the decline in native salmon has not correlated to these fish being here. 

These fish are at more risk of catching diseases from native salmon than the other way around as these fish did not evolve with native pathogens. If the argument is that these fish are a reservoir for disease, then this argument should be made toward hatcheries of any kind as well. There was little evidence that these fish were successfully consuming forage fish, so it actually surprises me and the "experts" I know that there are even any left, though they did start with massive fat reserves. Some people claim these fish are "toxic", I'd bet dollars to donuts that an Elliot Bay salmon has higher toxin levels than a farmed fish since, I have no doubt the fish food is monitored for such things whereas, especially South Sound, forage fish are not.

As far as them going up the rivers, these fish have spent their lives in a giant school and probably just latched onto whatever congregation of fish they came across.

I am a proponent of farmed fish because I believe they take a lot of pressure off of "wild" fish being caught for human food.  Face it, humans like to eat salmon and our wild populations cannot support the level of harvest to supply this demand, especially here in WA. 

Could/should Cooke have done a better job? I'm sure the answer is yes.  We require oil tankers to be double hulled, why not a double net barrier for these farms?

I hope this helps.

Offline Fungunnin

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2018, 06:20:51 PM »
The only positive aspect of this release is it heavily strengthened the opposition to farmed fish in Puget sound and will likely lead to the removal of net pens in Washington waters.

Farm raised fish is absolutely necessary I just don't want it in my back yard...

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Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 06:59:32 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, none of the fish found so far in fresh water have been sexually mature.  I have not heard of any and, though I have not been looking, this would have made big news.  Essentially, people are making a monstrous deal about these confused cows following the herd.

Why do otherwise intelligent people think that Atlantic salmon would have any better chance of thriving here with no additional benefits vs. the Pacific salmon that have genetically adapted to this coast and are being given every possible, probable, and improbable advantage?  It is not like the Atlantic’s are being dropped into a super rich environment ready for an invasive species to take advantage of. The Atlantics have proven they are as susceptible to decline on their native coast as Pacifics are on theirs.

This is just the next BIG catastrophe that the conservationists and “wild” fish folks have spun to convince the ignorant masses that farmed fish is the Devil! (Said in the voice of Kathy Bates of The Waterboy). There has been enough negative press and opinion thrown around the I5 corridor that a valuable business could be removed from this state or so heavily restricted that the cost of business will become prohibitive.

It will not surprise me to see another poorly written and emotion grabbing initiative  make it way to the ballot to be voted on by people who have no business voting on something they know nothing about.

Offline WAcoueshunter

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 07:02:52 PM »

Farm raised fish is absolutely necessary I just don't want it in my back yard...

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 :yeah:  NIMBY - feel kinda selfish, but there is plenty of saltwater and native stocks that are under less stress than puget sound.

Double nets seem like a good idea. Of course, so does more regular monitoring.  Charge them a license fee that pays enough to have regular checkups.  Sounds like the nets hadn't been cleaned and the drag from mussels and other junk was the primary problem.  Shame on them, but also shame on the agency that should have been monitoring.  That kinda thing doesn't sneak up overnight. 

Offline gasman

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2018, 07:04:55 PM »
I gotta side with Loki on this, they have had  farm raise atlany
Tic salmon in sound for as long as I can remember, nets have broken, pens have  crushed and fished were released but not once has a single Atlantic ever bread .....

I remember in the 90s when a pen in Bremerton broke, we were catching them all over Owens beach and the game dept tolx every one, get the fish, there free game and no worries of them reproducing, they are sterile fish.
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Offline Skillet

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2018, 07:11:20 PM »
It does help Loki, thanks.  You have some interesting points.  I, clearly, am looking at it from a different perspective now. But as a former sport fisherman (still am, had some great walleye fishing while I was on a visit home last weekend), I still feel the sting of saltwater opportunity being taken away from the weekend warriors.
 
The only positive aspect of this release is it heavily strengthened the opposition to farmed fish in Puget sound and will likely lead to the removal of net pens in Washington waters.

Farm raised fish is absolutely necessary I just don't want it in my back yard...

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Quote of the day.  Salmon farming operations are springing up in a lot of places, when those large volumes of fish are harvested it really impacts our bottom line as commercials.

If salmon become unharvestable, I suppose there's always tuna...
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Offline WAcoueshunter

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2018, 07:18:54 PM »
I think the river/spawning thing is a non-issue.  If any of them spawned from the many releases, why don't you hear about Atlantic shakers being caught?

To me, the big concern is them eating forage fish and smolts, the concentrated waste around the pens, and the potential for disease.  For those that say we shouldn't be worried about disease, I bet the domestic sheep herders used to say domestic sheep didn't pose a threat to wild sheep either.  We now know different.  Cooke has had some massive die offs.  I don't want that spreading. 

Offline jmscon

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2018, 08:09:29 PM »
I think the river/spawning thing is a non-issue.  If any of them spawned from the many releases, why don't you hear about Atlantic shakers being caught?

To me, the big concern is them eating forage fish and smolts, the concentrated waste around the pens, and the potential for disease.  For those that say we shouldn't be worried about disease, I bet the domestic sheep herders used to say domestic sheep didn't pose a threat to wild sheep either.  We now know different.  Cooke has had some massive die offs.  I don't want that spreading.
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Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2018, 08:18:13 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.  The most recent fish I have seen a photo of was one caught near Sultan a month or so ago, it looked like a cigar with fins it was so skinny....

The largest environmental impact is probably the increased organic waste around the net pen area causing potential problems for bottom dwellers nearby.  However, the amount of organics from these pens likely pales in comparison to the amount of organics pumped into the Sound from treated and untreated sewage as well as runoff from all those big green lawns surrounding the Sound.

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2018, 09:43:46 PM »

Quote of the day.  Salmon farming operations are springing up in a lot of places, when those large volumes of fish are harvested it really impacts our bottom line as commercials.

If salmon become unharvestable, I suppose there's always tuna...

That is a little disingenuous and oversimplified.  The farms have made commercial fishermen step up their game and maintain a higher standard while at the same time keeping the market more solid. It was not many years ago that bleeding and iceing were unheard of and there was little market for salmon beyond the can.  The fish were poor quality, prices low, supply was seasonal, no on knew there were different types of salmon than the “pink” kind, and the fresh market almost non-existent.  The farms came along and offered a consistent high quality, reasonable price, and a supply that was available as a fresh product that actually had a good taste; they capitalized on a ready market when wild harvests were plummeting. Comm fishermen tried competing, but until the great marketing and leaps in producing quality product from wild caught fish that started sometime in the 70s or 80s, really started to flourish in the 90s, and is ongoing currently, most people more than an hour or two from a coast almost never had a chance at anything but farmed salmon or local source fish. I grew up in CO and until moving to AK had never had good salmon and thought trout was fine eating.  The first few months in AK I was catching spawning pinks and thought they were great!  I shortly found out what good salmon was, winter white king on the bbq :EAT:

Commercial fishing on available stocks can in no way support demand at current prices and you would create a market like Beluga caviar where there is a small, high priced supply controlled by a few big companies, consumed by a few rich people, and rampant poaching on remaining wild stocks. Doing away with fish farms is one of the worst things you could do to the Pacific salmon stocks. There is enough poaching as is, imagine if the ex vessel price doubled?  How many new fishermen would be recruited if a power troll permit went from $35k to over $100k?  There would be some happy fishermen for awhile, but it is a bubble that would pop. 


Offline WAcoueshunter

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2018, 09:49:38 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 09:54:39 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.

Offline WAcoueshunter

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2018, 09:59:17 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet.


Instinctive or otherwise, they still kill whatever they bite.

Offline Tbar

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2018, 10:03:33 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.
Alaska and California are big proponents right?

Offline WAcoueshunter

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2018, 10:08:13 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Maybe not introduce a new virus, but certainly a concern in concentration.  Same fish farms had a virus in 2012 and decided to kill off the whole supply before it got out of hand.  Google Icicle fish farm die off 2012, and you'll come up with the articles.  Certainly the bios cited in the articles were worried about what effect it might have on native stocks. Heck, even Icicle decided to get out in front of it. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 10:13:39 PM by WAcoueshunter »

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2018, 10:15:52 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.
Alaska and California are big proponents right?

Proponents against farms, yes.  My early training in AK taught me farms were evil and were the number one cause of everything from decline in wild stocks to epilepsy.  After further study I came to the opinion that in a perfect world all fish would be free ranging, but until that happens fish farms are a necessary part of a healthy salmon run.

Offline Tbar

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2018, 10:18:50 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.  The most recent fish I have seen a photo of was one caught near Sultan a month or so ago, it looked like a cigar with fins it was so skinny....

The largest environmental impact is probably the increased organic waste around the net pen area causing potential problems for bottom dwellers nearby. However, the amount of organics from these pens likely pales in comparison to the amount of organics pumped into the Sound from treated and untreated sewage as well as runoff from all those big green lawns surrounding the Sound.
Seriously?  Dumping parasiticides into the water has zero impact? Could you find the chemical concoction used in the broadcast dumping?

 

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