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Author Topic: Atlantic Salmon  (Read 4775 times)

Offline jmscon

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2018, 08:09:29 PM »
I think the river/spawning thing is a non-issue.  If any of them spawned from the many releases, why don't you hear about Atlantic shakers being caught?

To me, the big concern is them eating forage fish and smolts, the concentrated waste around the pens, and the potential for disease.  For those that say we shouldn't be worried about disease, I bet the domestic sheep herders used to say domestic sheep didn't pose a threat to wild sheep either.  We now know different.  Cooke has had some massive die offs.  I don't want that spreading.
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Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2018, 08:18:13 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.  The most recent fish I have seen a photo of was one caught near Sultan a month or so ago, it looked like a cigar with fins it was so skinny....

The largest environmental impact is probably the increased organic waste around the net pen area causing potential problems for bottom dwellers nearby.  However, the amount of organics from these pens likely pales in comparison to the amount of organics pumped into the Sound from treated and untreated sewage as well as runoff from all those big green lawns surrounding the Sound.

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2018, 09:43:46 PM »

Quote of the day.  Salmon farming operations are springing up in a lot of places, when those large volumes of fish are harvested it really impacts our bottom line as commercials.

If salmon become unharvestable, I suppose there's always tuna...

That is a little disingenuous and oversimplified.  The farms have made commercial fishermen step up their game and maintain a higher standard while at the same time keeping the market more solid. It was not many years ago that bleeding and iceing were unheard of and there was little market for salmon beyond the can.  The fish were poor quality, prices low, supply was seasonal, no on knew there were different types of salmon than the “pink” kind, and the fresh market almost non-existent.  The farms came along and offered a consistent high quality, reasonable price, and a supply that was available as a fresh product that actually had a good taste; they capitalized on a ready market when wild harvests were plummeting. Comm fishermen tried competing, but until the great marketing and leaps in producing quality product from wild caught fish that started sometime in the 70s or 80s, really started to flourish in the 90s, and is ongoing currently, most people more than an hour or two from a coast almost never had a chance at anything but farmed salmon or local source fish. I grew up in CO and until moving to AK had never had good salmon and thought trout was fine eating.  The first few months in AK I was catching spawning pinks and thought they were great!  I shortly found out what good salmon was, winter white king on the bbq :EAT:

Commercial fishing on available stocks can in no way support demand at current prices and you would create a market like Beluga caviar where there is a small, high priced supply controlled by a few big companies, consumed by a few rich people, and rampant poaching on remaining wild stocks. Doing away with fish farms is one of the worst things you could do to the Pacific salmon stocks. There is enough poaching as is, imagine if the ex vessel price doubled?  How many new fishermen would be recruited if a power troll permit went from $35k to over $100k?  There would be some happy fishermen for awhile, but it is a bubble that would pop. 


Offline WAcoueshunter

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2018, 09:49:38 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 09:54:39 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.

Offline WAcoueshunter

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2018, 09:59:17 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet.


Instinctive or otherwise, they still kill whatever they bite.

Offline Tbar

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2018, 10:03:33 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.
Alaska and California are big proponents right?

Offline WAcoueshunter

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2018, 10:08:13 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Maybe not introduce a new virus, but certainly a concern in concentration.  Same fish farms had a virus in 2012 and decided to kill off the whole supply before it got out of hand.  Google Icicle fish farm die off 2012, and you'll come up with the articles.  Certainly the bios cited in the articles were worried about what effect it might have on native stocks. Heck, even Icicle decided to get out in front of it. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 10:13:39 PM by WAcoueshunter »

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2018, 10:15:52 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.
Alaska and California are big proponents right?

Proponents against farms, yes.  My early training in AK taught me farms were evil and were the number one cause of everything from decline in wild stocks to epilepsy.  After further study I came to the opinion that in a perfect world all fish would be free ranging, but until that happens fish farms are a necessary part of a healthy salmon run.

Offline Tbar

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2018, 10:18:50 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.  The most recent fish I have seen a photo of was one caught near Sultan a month or so ago, it looked like a cigar with fins it was so skinny....

The largest environmental impact is probably the increased organic waste around the net pen area causing potential problems for bottom dwellers nearby. However, the amount of organics from these pens likely pales in comparison to the amount of organics pumped into the Sound from treated and untreated sewage as well as runoff from all those big green lawns surrounding the Sound.
Seriously?  Dumping parasiticides into the water has zero impact? Could you find the chemical concoction used in the broadcast dumping?

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2018, 10:59:59 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Maybe not introduce a new virus, but certainly a concern in concentration.  Same fish farms had a virus in 2012 and decided to kill off the whole supply before it got out of hand.  Google Icicle fish farm die off 2012, and you'll come up with the articles.  Certainly the bios cited in the articles were worried about what effect it might have on native stocks. Heck, even Icicle decided to get out in front of it.

The disease in this case was IHNV which has been known in wild and hatchery fish for many years and is a disease of high concern. The native stocks are what gave it to the penned salmon and when you have that many individuals in close proximity the spread is fast and certain, one infected fish can shed something around 10million virus units per day. It was not a case of killing off the fish before it got out of hand , it was a case of killing the fish before they died since there is no vaccine or treatment. Also this was not a choice that Icicle made, this was a determined course once the virus was detected. This is not something where the manager sits back and says “let’s wait and see”, you detect it and immediately go into DEFCON. Mortality rates can easily reach 90% and even fish that recover will likely be life long carriers of the disease.  Whole hatcheries in AK have been sterilized after IHN outbreaks. AK has a very stringent set of practices that hatcheries must follow to prevent the outbreak and spread of the disease and they have been pretty successful over the years.  The disease isn’t still in the natural environment where it originated, but AK hatcheries have had a good track record of preventing it over the last 15-20 years. The farms have much invested and have also done very good at preventing their fish from catching this wild fish disease.

Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2018, 11:19:09 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.  The most recent fish I have seen a photo of was one caught near Sultan a month or so ago, it looked like a cigar with fins it was so skinny....

The largest environmental impact is probably the increased organic waste around the net pen area causing potential problems for bottom dwellers nearby. However, the amount of organics from these pens likely pales in comparison to the amount of organics pumped into the Sound from treated and untreated sewage as well as runoff from all those big green lawns surrounding the Sound.
Seriously?  Dumping parasiticides into the water has zero impact? Could you find the chemical concoction used in the broadcast dumping?

Broadcast dumping of what?  Cite your sources!  Anything given to treat these fish was in their food.  Broadcast "dumping" is a completely inefficient way to treat anything in an open system like an open water fish farm.

Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2018, 11:22:19 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.
Alaska and California are big proponents right?

AK and CA?  You talk about crap that seems like you are pulling it out of your butt.  The loudest voice I heard against the evil fish came from the tribes... until they were offered money to catch them, then it quieted down substantially.  They were making enough money from these fish that they could hire a helicopter to look for schools of them.

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2018, 11:31:30 PM »

These fish are at more risk of catching diseases from native salmon than the other way around as these fish did not evolve with native pathogens. If the argument is that these fish are a reservoir for disease, then this argument should be made toward hatcheries of any kind as well.

This is already documented and so is the fact that hatchery salmon are detrimental to wild stocks. 

I am a proponent of farmed fish because I believe they take a lot of pressure off of "wild" fish being caught for human food.  Face it, humans like to eat salmon and our wild populations cannot support the level of harvest to supply this demand, especially here in WA. 

Farmed fish do not take any pressure off of wild stocks. They add to the pressure through disease and parasites and the waste that hatchery stocks produce.  Hatchery fish also put pressure on food fish stocks that are caught to feed the hatchery fish, thereby limiting what is available for wild salmon and other wild fish.

Hatcheries may end up being the final nail in the wild stocks coffins.  And I say this as a commercial fisherman who hates hatcheries and what they have done to wild fisheries.  The only good I can see from hatcheries is a limited use for enhancement of troubled runs. They should never have been used for a replacement or substitute for troubled runs. The problems with troubled runs should be addressed and taken care of, not masked by millions of hatchery fish.
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Offline Skillet

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2018, 11:35:58 PM »


Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.

We've been doing a relatively good job so far, let's continue to keep things real here.  These fish, as all fish, will eat what appears edible.  Be it sand lance, herring, king smolts or pellets - a fish is going to eat.  I make a living catching coho that have increased their weight by a factor of several thousand by eating the bounty the ocean provides, yet succumb to a chartreuse/fire dot Manistee that looks like nothing in the natural world for their final meal.  A significant number of these fish arrive on my boat with empty stomachs - that doesn't mean they (or the atlantics escaped into Puget Sound) - haven't or don't eat natural forage. It just means either they haven't eaten the forage very recently or puked it up before being landed.  An empty stomach means nothing.

The truth is, we don't know how negative the real impacts of these escapees are on the native salmon population. Anything beyond that, for this particular escape, is speculation.

I do think it is fair to say, however, that we DO know that the escapees are not helping the native salmon population.  At the very best, the negative impact is negligible. At worst, this escape can be another mail in the native salmon's coffin.
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