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Author Topic: Atlantic Salmon  (Read 2645 times)

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2018, 10:59:59 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Maybe not introduce a new virus, but certainly a concern in concentration.  Same fish farms had a virus in 2012 and decided to kill off the whole supply before it got out of hand.  Google Icicle fish farm die off 2012, and you'll come up with the articles.  Certainly the bios cited in the articles were worried about what effect it might have on native stocks. Heck, even Icicle decided to get out in front of it.

The disease in this case was IHNV which has been known in wild and hatchery fish for many years and is a disease of high concern. The native stocks are what gave it to the penned salmon and when you have that many individuals in close proximity the spread is fast and certain, one infected fish can shed something around 10million virus units per day. It was not a case of killing off the fish before it got out of hand , it was a case of killing the fish before they died since there is no vaccine or treatment. Also this was not a choice that Icicle made, this was a determined course once the virus was detected. This is not something where the manager sits back and says ďletís wait and seeĒ, you detect it and immediately go into DEFCON. Mortality rates can easily reach 90% and even fish that recover will likely be life long carriers of the disease.  Whole hatcheries in AK have been sterilized after IHN outbreaks. AK has a very stringent set of practices that hatcheries must follow to prevent the outbreak and spread of the disease and they have been pretty successful over the years.  The disease isnít still in the natural environment where it originated, but AK hatcheries have had a good track record of preventing it over the last 15-20 years. The farms have much invested and have also done very good at preventing their fish from catching this wild fish disease.

Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2018, 11:19:09 PM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.  The most recent fish I have seen a photo of was one caught near Sultan a month or so ago, it looked like a cigar with fins it was so skinny....

The largest environmental impact is probably the increased organic waste around the net pen area causing potential problems for bottom dwellers nearby. However, the amount of organics from these pens likely pales in comparison to the amount of organics pumped into the Sound from treated and untreated sewage as well as runoff from all those big green lawns surrounding the Sound.
Seriously?  Dumping parasiticides into the water has zero impact? Could you find the chemical concoction used in the broadcast dumping?

Broadcast dumping of what?  Cite your sources!  Anything given to treat these fish was in their food.  Broadcast "dumping" is a completely inefficient way to treat anything in an open system like an open water fish farm.

Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2018, 11:22:19 PM »
Ē

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.
Alaska and California are big proponents right?

AK and CA?  You talk about crap that seems like you are pulling it out of your butt.  The loudest voice I heard against the evil fish came from the tribes... until they were offered money to catch them, then it quieted down substantially.  They were making enough money from these fish that they could hire a helicopter to look for schools of them.

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2018, 11:31:30 PM »

These fish are at more risk of catching diseases from native salmon than the other way around as these fish did not evolve with native pathogens. If the argument is that these fish are a reservoir for disease, then this argument should be made toward hatcheries of any kind as well.

This is already documented and so is the fact that hatchery salmon are detrimental to wild stocks. 

I am a proponent of farmed fish because I believe they take a lot of pressure off of "wild" fish being caught for human food.  Face it, humans like to eat salmon and our wild populations cannot support the level of harvest to supply this demand, especially here in WA. 

Farmed fish do not take any pressure off of wild stocks. They add to the pressure through disease and parasites and the waste that hatchery stocks produce.  Hatchery fish also put pressure on food fish stocks that are caught to feed the hatchery fish, thereby limiting what is available for wild salmon and other wild fish.

Hatcheries may end up being the final nail in the wild stocks coffins.  And I say this as a commercial fisherman who hates hatcheries and what they have done to wild fisheries.  The only good I can see from hatcheries is a limited use for enhancement of troubled runs. They should never have been used for a replacement or substitute for troubled runs. The problems with troubled runs should be addressed and taken care of, not masked by millions of hatchery fish.
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Offline Skillet

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2018, 11:35:58 PM »
Ē

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.

We've been doing a relatively good job so far, let's continue to keep things real here.  These fish, as all fish, will eat what appears edible.  Be it sand lance, herring, king smolts or pellets - a fish is going to eat.  I make a living catching coho that have increased their weight by a factor of several thousand by eating the bounty the ocean provides, yet succumb to a chartreuse/fire dot Manistee that looks like nothing in the natural world for their final meal.  A significant number of these fish arrive on my boat with empty stomachs - that doesn't mean they (or the atlantics escaped into Puget Sound) - haven't or don't eat natural forage. It just means either they haven't eaten the forage very recently or puked it up before being landed.  An empty stomach means nothing.

The truth is, we don't know how negative the real impacts of these escapees are on the native salmon population. Anything beyond that, for this particular escape, is speculation.

I do think it is fair to say, however, that we DO know that the escapees are not helping the native salmon population.  At the very best, the negative impact is negligible. At worst, this escape can be another mail in the native salmon's coffin.
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Offline Skillet

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2018, 11:37:20 PM »
Ē

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.
Alaska and California are big proponents right?

AK and CA?  You talk about crap that seems like you are pulling it out of your butt.  The loudest voice I heard against the evil fish came from the tribes... until they were offered money to catch them, then it quieted down substantially.  They were making enough money from these fish that they could hire a helicopter to look for schools of them.

Settle down, now. Don't take the bait Loki, so to speak.
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Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2018, 11:37:43 PM »
Why do otherwise intelligent people think that Atlantic salmon would have any better chance of thriving here with no additional benefits vs. the Pacific salmon that have genetically adapted to this coast and are being given every possible, probable, and improbable advantage?  It is not like the Atlanticís are being dropped into a super rich environment ready for an invasive species to take advantage of. The Atlantics have proven they are as susceptible to decline on their native coast as Pacifics are on theirs.


Why would anyone think the walleyed pike would thrive in the Columbia River? Or that Chinese lice would play Hell with blacktail deer?

It is small minded not to consider the dangers of invasive species.
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Offline lokidog

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2018, 11:48:49 PM »
How about you look up the definition of invasive species? Atlantics in no way fit it.

I'm done here until someone can actually show some evidence that pen raised salmon are a problem.  They are a scapegoat to the real problems that our native fish face.  All I've seen is conjecture and hyperbole.... 

Offline Skillet

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2018, 11:50:13 PM »
Why do otherwise intelligent people think that Atlantic salmon would have any better chance of thriving here with no additional benefits vs. the Pacific salmon that have genetically adapted to this coast and are being given every possible, probable, and improbable advantage?  It is not like the Atlanticís are being dropped into a super rich environment ready for an invasive species to take advantage of. The Atlantics have proven they are as susceptible to decline on their native coast as Pacifics are on theirs.


Why would anyone think the walleyed pike would thrive in the Columbia River? Or that Chinese lice would play Hell with blacktail deer?

It is small minded not to consider the dangers of invasive species.

I'm on the opposite side of the hatchery argument as Sitka Blacktail,  but agree 100% with this.

(And Walleye are still doing quite well in the Big C, I can personally attest)
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Offline Skillet

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2018, 12:15:38 AM »
How about you look up the definition of invasive species? Atlantics in no way fit it.

I'm done here until someone can actually show some evidence that pen raised salmon are a problem.  They are a scapegoat to the real problems that our native fish face.  All I've seen is conjecture and hyperbole....

Atlantic salmon... in the Pacific Ocean... Not in any way invasive?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species

Is the fish finally meeting the Wikipedia definition of "Invasive" the standard that needs to be met before you'll admit this isn't a good thing?  The damage needs to be done first?  What do you get out of that outcome?  Isn't that simply the fact that these are known to be a relatively agressive fish https://academic.oup.com/icesjms/article/63/7/1162/752771 and competitive with Pacific Salmon enough to say this escape was a bad thing?  We know it can't be a good thing. That much is certain, isn't it?  It may in fact be that these fish pose little risk, but the truth is we don't know that. They certainly pose less risk if they hadn't escaped. The premise these escaped fish cause no harm is more speculative than the premise they do cause some harm.  Why not admit that fact and get on board with stricter regulation, higher standards for pen construction/maintenance, and severe penalties for failure to protect the environment the endangered native runs need to survive?
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Offline Tbar

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2018, 05:08:43 AM »
These fish are not "bringing disease with them", unlike domestic sheep, this is a completely inaccurate comparison.  These fish did not live in some foreign wild location where they would pick up diseases that our native fish are not ready to fight.

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.  The most recent fish I have seen a photo of was one caught near Sultan a month or so ago, it looked like a cigar with fins it was so skinny....

The largest environmental impact is probably the increased organic waste around the net pen area causing potential problems for bottom dwellers nearby. However, the amount of organics from these pens likely pales in comparison to the amount of organics pumped into the Sound from treated and untreated sewage as well as runoff from all those big green lawns surrounding the Sound.
Seriously?  Dumping parasiticides into the water has zero impact? Could you find the chemical concoction used in the broadcast dumping?

Broadcast dumping of what?  Cite your sources!  Anything given to treat these fish was in their food.  Broadcast "dumping" is a completely inefficient way to treat anything in an open system like an open water fish farm.
http://bangordailynews.com/2013/04/27/business/cooke-aquaculture-to-pay-490k-after-illegal-pesticides-kill-lobsters-in-canada/
Yeah, making it up.  cypermethrin- sounds like organic matter!

Offline Tbar

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2018, 05:21:10 AM »
Ē

Also, they are not hardly competing with the native fish for food either as hundreds of them sampled in the beginning had no forage fish in their stomachs.

You caught some. Did you use power bait?  Or something that mimicked a bait fish?

Yes, however, like a salmon returning to the rivers, I believe it was more of an instinctive strike and once grabbed, they did not know what to do with something that was not a pellet, hence no forage fish in the stomach contents of at least 200 that I know of (there was actually one, I think, that had a herring in it).

j_h_    the loudest voice against the fish farms are the tribal and non-tribal commercial interests IMO.
Alaska and California are big proponents right?

AK and CA?  You talk about crap that seems like you are pulling it out of your butt.  The loudest voice I heard against the evil fish came from the tribes... until they were offered money to catch them, then it quieted down substantially.  They were making enough money from these fish that they could hire a helicopter to look for schools of them.

Settle down, now. Don't take the bait Loki, so to speak.
You guys crack me up.  The loudest voice against? They are already banned in Ak and California, that seems to represent strong opposition.  There is definitely more evidence out there about the negatives besides the junk science your group produces. Show me some peer lit reviews of Russ and all the good science you guys produce.

Offline singleshot12

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2018, 12:04:48 PM »
 :chuckle: I do find it kinda funny and ironic that the loudest advocate against salmon farming is the commercial fishermen. Makes sense tho, if salmon farms were completely done away with in Washington then the price per pound for commercial caught Wild Hatchery salmon would most likely double.

Seems to me any environmental problems-pollution related caused by salmon farming is only minute compared to all the other issues related to salmon stock demise.
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Offline jmscon

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2018, 05:19:32 PM »
I donít know how anyone could think that thousands of non-native fish released into Puget Sound could be ok. Farm salmon wonít end the wild runs, itís the combination of everything. Loss of habitat, fertilizer, copper piping in houses, micro plastics, changing climates, oil and runoff from roads, sewage, etc., etc. The Atlantic salmon release was one more thing that will be a detriment to whatís left of the wild stocks.
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Offline kodiak 907

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2018, 11:14:14 PM »
I caught a 7-8ish pound hen ten miles east of the Howard-Miller launch on the skagit. 28th of December and her roe was coming out loose when I landed her.  I couldnít believe it.

The tribe boats below Lyman were getting quite a few in the gill nets.
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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2018, 10:06:10 AM »
Rainbow trout are fed pellets and then released where they figure out how to both eat and breed.

Saying the chance of eating, breeding or carrying diseases is 0% seems foolish to me looking back in history every time humans think we have it all figured out.


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Offline Fungunnin

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2018, 11:14:46 AM »
Rainbow trout are fed pellets and then released where they figure out how to both eat and breed.

Saying the chance of eating, breeding or carrying diseases is 0% seems foolish to me looking back in history every time humans think we have it all figured out.


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Rainbow trout are also native to the Pacific Northwest.
This is not the first time Atlantic Salmon have been released in Puget Sound and they have never formed a breeding population. I'm not saying it can't happen but all prior data would indicate that it won't.
The upside is it looks like the farm on Cyprus Island is getting shut down permanently.

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2018, 03:49:25 PM »
So if you put it in a native stream it eats, but if not it wonít?

We donít know Atlanticís have not bred.  We havenít seen evidence.


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Offline steeleywhopper

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2018, 04:23:05 PM »
My buddy caught a hen Atlantic on the upper Skagit in mid January. He said her eggs werenít mature but they were getting there.

Offline plugger

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2018, 04:44:12 AM »
Sure.  I have seen no credible evidence that these fish, or the farms, are actually having a detrimental effect on the native salmon.  There have been similar fish farms in the area for forty years including attempts in the late 1800's to actually establish runs and the decline in native salmon has not correlated to these fish being here. 

These fish are at more risk of catching diseases from native salmon than the other way around as these fish did not evolve with native pathogens. If the argument is that these fish are a reservoir for disease, then this argument should be made toward hatcheries of any kind as well. There was little evidence that these fish were successfully consuming forage fish, so it actually surprises me and the "experts" I know that there are even any left, though they did start with massive fat reserves. Some people claim these fish are "toxic", I'd bet dollars to donuts that an Elliot Bay salmon has higher toxin levels than a farmed fish since, I have no doubt the fish food is monitored for such things whereas, especially South Sound, forage fish are not.

As far as them going up the rivers, these fish have spent their lives in a giant school and probably just latched onto whatever congregation of fish they came across.

I am a proponent of farmed fish because I believe they take a lot of pressure off of "wild" fish being caught for human food.  Face it, humans like to eat salmon and our wild populations cannot support the level of harvest to supply this demand, especially here in WA. 

Could/should Cooke have done a better job? I'm sure the answer is yes.  We require oil tankers to be double hulled, why not a double net barrier for these farms?

I hope this helps.

I have to agree with you lokidog, Not to mention there are some peoples careers at stake here. They pay a decent wage and its not easy to find a job in port angeles that does.  I really don't understand why the commercial guys appose the pens so much, Ay this point, closing them down in this state wont effect there bottom line, The fish will just be produced somewhere else.

Offline Salmonstalker

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2018, 01:38:24 PM »
People need to look at the evidence that has been gathered in BC, regarding the negative effects of salmon pens providing breeding grounds for sea lice. Salmon smolt come in contact with the pens on the the way to the ocean, then are preyed upon by the lice- and considering their size (in comparison to the lice) they cannot survive for long, once the lice have latched on.

Piscine Orthereovirus. Look it up. I just read an article that was recently put out by the department of ecology that claims 100% of the escaped fish were carriers of the disease.

And furthermore, ask the Norwegians how their wild stocks are doing since they planted their fish pens in the fjords at the mouths of their rivers.

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2018, 02:21:01 PM »
DUVALL, Wash. ó The Wild Fish Conservancy Northwest said Thursday that lab results show the Atlantic salmon that escaped from pens last summer were infected with a highly contagious and harmful virus that could kill native wild salmon.

http://newsbut.com/wild-fish-conservancy-says-escaped-atlantic-salmon-were-infected-with-contagious/

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2018, 02:49:34 PM »
Careful guys, Lokidog has all the knowledge concerning these fish.  And, according to him and the team of scientists he works with there are no ill effects and these fish are great.  KWIAHT even has a their own lab and is submitting data to dispel claims. 

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2018, 03:23:47 PM »
The runs have been depleting way before the pens arrived and there declining in areas where they don't swim as smolts passed any pens. That would be any river west of Port Angeles. Perhaps if the ocean conditions where favorable every year and the adult fish weren't getting slaughtered by the tribes as they make there way to the spawning grounds things would be better, but there not and that's not going to change anytime soon.

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Re: Atlantic Salmon
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2018, 04:29:09 PM »
And they taste like crap.  Farm silvers or sockeye so if they escape they might enhance the local runs.  Salmon are going to become a put and take resource in the not so distant future anyway.  But that's a discussion for another time. 8)
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