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Sound like the real thing! Trophy Bucks and Bulls

Author Topic: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!  (Read 6835 times)

Offline nwhunter

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2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« on: May 14, 2007, 10:22:22 PM »
Just looked at the new regs and saw what I was afraid of for the toutle and margaret. They added a bunch of cow tags to the archery hunt at the same time as the bull hunts. They did move it back to Sept 15-30 which is good for more into the rut and more chance of rain to help the fire danger issue but throwing in the cow tags at the same time stinks. I would rather have them in there the two weeks before and stir things up than have them all at the same time. Oh well the timeframe sure sounds good just wish there were bigger bulls like the eastside has to offer. Also for these tags if you aren't successful in sept. you can go back in Nov for a late hunt which is also a new thing. What do you think? nwhunter

Offline billythekidrock

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2007, 06:02:51 AM »
I was excited about the late season option for those units, but I did not notice the cow hunts at the same time. I was going to apply for them this year, but now I have to rethink.




Offline rackattack

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2007, 05:25:33 PM »
Wait all these years to draw one of these tags and now you have cow hunters in there on your quality hunt.  I don't know what they were thinking. :dunno: 

Offline Ghost Hunter

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2007, 06:08:22 PM »
Thinking your gonna have company like everbody else :chuckle: :dunno:  Just go enjoy the hunt :brew:
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Offline MADMAX

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2007, 06:57:13 AM »
Hunt them smart if you draw, I can give you what worked for me, I have drawn both tags, also now with all the gates ,I would think it should be a lot better.
Keep the wind in your hair, and the sun at your back.

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Fine figure of a man, yes?
That is all you need to know."

Online bobcat

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2007, 08:11:26 AM »
I put in for muzzleloader Toutle, bull and cow. Both are the same early season, but there are only a total of 101 permits, so that's really not bad for a unit of that size. The only bad thing for me is that there will be a lot of archery hunters in there ahead of me. Unless, of course, Weyerhaeuser has it shut down during archery season for fire danger. But that's another thing that concerns me is that the whole unit could still be closed during early muzzleloader season. Oh well, we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Offline rackattack

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2007, 08:35:42 AM »
MADMAX what years did you draw your tags and how did you end up doing?  Seems getting drawn is the real tough part to those hunts.  Bobcat, good luck on your draw, were those the only two choices you put down?

Online bobcat

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2007, 08:51:20 AM »
rackattack,  I did Toutle Bull for #1, and the Toutle Cow for #3. My second choice was a cow permit in another part of the state which is a late hunt. I couldn't put in for Margaret, as my hunting partner is putting in for the same hunts, and it wouldn't work very well if one of us drew Margaret and the other Toutle.

Offline rackattack

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2007, 09:05:00 AM »
Bobcat, I know the feeling.  With all these new cow opportunities, it would be pretty easy to have a group, or friends split among different units. 

Offline MADMAX

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2007, 09:18:38 AM »
I drew Margaret AHE in 97(heavy 5x5) and Toutle in 1999 (3x3)
Keep the wind in your hair, and the sun at your back.

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Online bobcat

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2007, 09:26:22 AM »
Yeah, we had a hard time deciding whether to apply together, or separately. But we decided it would be better to increase our odds of at least one of us getting a permit by applying separately. Besides, my brother has 3 points, and I only have 1. And we'll still hunt together even if only one of us has a tag, and really, I don't think I'd want to pack out two elk on one hunt anyway. For deer we did apply as partners, but that's different, deer hunting to me is for fun, while elk hunting is sometimes more work than it is fun.  :chuckle:

Offline Opportunist

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2007, 05:49:25 AM »
They should have left the early season for permitted bull hunters and gave out the cow permits for the late season. Heck any time except for during a permit bull rut hunt! :dunno: They've been doing the same thing with the rifle cow tags, holding the cow permit season during the general rifle season.
"Deer season is just a scouting trip for my next elk hunt"

Online funkster

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2007, 07:50:31 PM »
Bobcat,from what the WDFW told me it is usually better to put in as a group esp if you only have 1 point. They add all the group members points and square them.(this is how they pull for single tags as well)I think for elk you can have 12 people to a group. So in your case you guys would have 4 total points,so your group would go through the system 16 times. If you applied separately your name would only go through once and your buddy would go through 9 times. We are going to put in as a group for a Margaret and toutle bull tag with 13 total points for a total of a 169 times through the system. They started the weighted points system in 1996 so the most points per person could only be 11. Hope this helps!!
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Offline rackattack

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2007, 08:03:03 PM »
Funkster, I think you may have read something wrong. When you put in for a group they average the points for all the group then square them.  So if you had 4 and a buddy had 2 then the average would be 3.  Square that and the group would have 9 chances.  Individually you would have had 16 and your buddy 4.  Otherwise it would not be fair to individuals that apply.

Offline billythekidrock

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2007, 09:09:46 PM »
Unless you have little points and your partners have lots, the better odds of being drawn go to the single apps. Especially if there is a small amount of permits and alot of people applying.




Online bobcat

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2007, 09:57:10 PM »
Unless you have little points and your partners have lots, the better odds of being drawn go to the single apps. Especially if there is a small amount of permits and alot of people applying.

Yep. My bro and I put down the same 3 choices, but we applied separately. Our first choice only has 26 tags...if you were to apply for that hunt with a group of 12, you'd really be hurting your chance of drawing. Just think, during the drawing process, once the first 15 tags for that hunt are gone, and there are only 11 tags left, your party has zero chance of drawing. If your group's number came up, and there are only 11 tags, you will get passed over for that hunt, and they will then look at your next choice. For a group that large your best bet would be to apply for hunts that have the most permits. I'd look at ones that have over 100. Or, consider splitting your group of 12 into 4 groups of 3. That will help your odds a lot, and if only 3 guys draw, you could all still go along on the hunt just as helpers. I have just as much fun when I am "hunting" without a tag.

Offline billythekidrock

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2007, 06:13:22 AM »
Unless you have little points and your partners have lots, the better odds of being drawn go to the single apps. Especially if there is a small amount of permits and alot of people applying.

Yep. My bro and I put down the same 3 choices, but we applied separately. Our first choice only has 26 tags...if you were to apply for that hunt with a group of 12, you'd really be hurting your chance of drawing. Just think, during the drawing process, once the first 15 tags for that hunt are gone, and there are only 11 tags left, your party has zero chance of drawing. If your group's number came up, and there are only 11 tags, you will get passed over for that hunt, and they will then look at your next choice. For a group that large your best bet would be to apply for hunts that have the most permits. I'd look at ones that have over 100. Or, consider splitting your group of 12 into 4 groups of 3. That will help your odds a lot, and if only 3 guys draw, you could all still go along on the hunt just as helpers. I have just as much fun when I am "hunting" without a tag.

That is exactly what I WANTED to post, but just didn't have time. If I remember correctly you and I also judge our odds the same. Didn't I see a bunch of penciled in numbers in the permit section of your regs one time? LOL




Offline WDFW Hates ME!!!

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2007, 08:44:31 PM »
I have 9 points, brother in law has 9 points and we put in seperatly...
I hope we do not get drawn in the same year...
Back to back years him then me or vice versa would be excellent...
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Online funkster

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2007, 08:59:16 PM »
Funkster, I think you may have read something wrong. When you put in for a group they average the points for all the group then square them.  So if you had 4 and a buddy had 2 then the average would be 3.  Square that and the group would have 9 chances.  Individually you would have had 16 and your buddy 4.  Otherwise it would not be fair to individuals that apply.

I called the wdfw and spoke with them for about 45 min and that is what she told me. From what I have heard the system isn't very fair. She said that the weighted points account for 75% of the permits that are drawn and the other 25% is just luck of the draw.  Maybe I'am not seeing what you all are trying to tell me but from what they said,thats how they do it. If you could shed so more light all info is welcome!!
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Online bobcat

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2007, 10:10:51 PM »
The system is as fair as can be expected. The number of points you have is squared and that is how many chances you have in the drawing. I don't know where they came up with that 75% and 25%. That almost sounds like Oregon. You can find information on their website that explains how it works. I wouldn't necessarily rely on a clerk who happened to answer the phone when you called. Try looking here:

www.wdfw.wa.gov

Offline billythekidrock

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2007, 06:36:49 AM »
The system is as fair as can be expected. The number of points you have is squared and that is how many chances you have in the drawing. I don't know where they came up with that 75% and 25%. That almost sounds like Oregon. You can find information on their website that explains how it works. I wouldn't necessarily rely on a clerk who happened to answer the phone when you called. Try looking here:

www.wdfw.wa.gov

Bob, I wonder if the clerk ment that only 75% are squared (weighted)? I seem to remember that not all of the permit points are multiplied.

I agree about not relying on a clerk. They are typically Office Assistants in an entry level job, many times looking for an "in" with the state and not really knowledgeable about hunting.




Offline huntnfmly

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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2007, 07:24:59 AM »
Hey guys,
All of the permit points are squared and it is true if you put in as a group they add up all points then average them out then square them.Say one guy has 1 point other has 9 =10 divided buy 2 = 5 squared =25 times in the barrel
jim
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Re: 2007 toutle/marg. tags grrrr!
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2007, 05:12:41 PM »
Rackattack was right! I found this question and answer on WDFW website.

Q: What if I apply in a group and we have a different number of points built up? Whose points are used?
A: On group applications, the points of all of the applicants are averaged and the average is used in the drawing for that application. If the first group member has two points and the second one has six, then four points are used for the drawing. If the first member has one point, the second member has two, and a third member has four, then two points are used in the drawing for that application. The averaged points are rounded to the nearest whole number.

Q: What happens if a group application comes up and there are fewer permits left than there are members in the group?
A: If there are fewer permits left for a hunt than there are members in a group whose application is drawn, none of the applicants on that application are awarded a permit. The drawing continues until either an Individual Application or a Group Application with fewer members is drawn for that hunt. This is the way it was done when the drawing was actually done using barrels and cards. It is not possible to award more permits for a hunt than what is allowed by the Fish and Wildlife Commission.

It's great to know that there are informed hunters on this site. Thanks guys!

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