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Author Topic: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.  (Read 22019 times)

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2010, 09:56:52 PM »
Cow had a brand new calf on her to, which WDFW never seemed to want to mention, the calf was never found. This same rancher lost a mule to wolves the year before, same place.

Offline mulehunter

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2010, 10:00:10 PM »

[/quote]

Proof of wolf kill may elude investigators

 
Canine tracks found near scene, but cow carcass was too old to determine actual cause of death

By Joyce Campbell

Federal and state wildlife officials say that while gray wolves may have been involved in the death of a cow near Twisp last week, proof will be difficult to obtain.

“By the time we got to the carcass it was too old for me to say yay or nay if it was killed by a wolf,” said Scott Fitkin, wildlife biologist with the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. “It was clearly fed on by something, but not much was left but a lot of maggots.” Fitkin and a USDA Wildlife Services agent inspected the carcass on Friday (May 22).


[/quote]

The only reason Scott fitkin get HIRED AS BIOLGOLIST PROWOLF  with all LIES to save their money not to pay Rancher for their Loss Livestock and afraid they MAY to order Wolf Deperation Control! But...........  I read He said as Scott Fitkin HIRED TWO FEILD AGENT SAMEDAY at Scene and to tracking Wolves pack use VHS Collar on two wolves that way FEILD AGENT can PUSH THEM out DIRECTION FROM THOSE Scene to say ITS NOT WOLVES.  No Wonder why they are completely PROTECTING Wolves for USFWS......



Mulehunter   >:(

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2010, 10:12:55 PM »
Did you hear about fitkin flying wolves around last summer? ;)

Offline Lowedog

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2010, 10:17:19 PM »
I am sure there are people who agree with either side but far more in the middle with no exposure to the facts yet.

From what I can see, the pro-management side has presented a multitude of factual news reports from communities which have been affected by wolves and the pro-wolf side has presented a whole lot of emotion.  ;)   :IBCOOL:


I am trying to look at this from a nuetral position, it seems an educated person without prejudice would go with the facts.   :dunno:

I see a whole lot of emotion from the extreme fringes of both sides.  Going to the lengths of joining a small community message board because you were summoned by one of your cohorts to try and discredit and even insult one member because they have a different view is a little extreme in my view.  Especially when you consider that most of those doing so probably never heard of the Methow Valley.  

It is also difficult to think of you as being neutral when you have stated in other discussions that you think that we should oppose wolves altogether.  
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2010, 05:52:38 AM »
Wyoming Resident Explains How Wolves Have Affected His Community
http://www.methowvalley.com/bb/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=11723&p=6

        My home town is Dubois,Wyo. this little town is an hour from Jackson Hole . In 2003 there were 1,500 late cow Elk permits issued for this area , today 150. The Processing Plant in Dubois did a brisk business and employed alot of people . In 2008 they processed 10 cow Elk , last year 9. needless to say the fellow who owns the business is almost out of business.

        I asked the gov of Wyo to declare Dubois an Ecological disaster. They have lost Timbering, Livestock, Tourism (because of Grizz) and now Hunting.

        Wolves tend to stay away from where I run cattle, as I have said Wolves are against the Law in Wyo until the FED recognizes our Wolf Management Plan and they have been outlawed in my county of Fremont. what Wolves have made it this far were killed in less than ten days by the USFWS . A pack near Dubois was eliminated in 15 min, the Govt Hunter told me it was the most fun he had ever had. 14 Wolves Dead in 15 min. Over 1,400 Wolves have been killed since the Wolf insanity was started in "95" and we have still lost over 90,000 Elk. Wolf Deaths are only those that have been found or taken by FED. Elk Death loss includes Sluffed Calves and Calves killed based on historic calving numbers per hundred Cows and Baron Cows not able to breed because of no Bulls.

        I did lose some calves a yr ago but the beauty of the Wolf from the Enviro's perspective is that when a Wolf is thru with a calf you can't find any evidence. I lost only 3 I'm fortunate but there are those who won't be so lucky. If I could make you understand how important it is to not enter into any agreement with the FED about Management of the Wolf I would have done my job. The Wolf is a mill stone and you don't want it around the neck of your state, you want it hanging around the neck of the FED.

        Judge Molloy gave You all an opprotunity to see just exactly how the ESA has been used against the Western States. for years we have been saying that the ESA was being abused and was corrupt , Molloy proved it . So as a State you should "Outlaw " the wolf, he is not an Animal he is a Soldier in the "Green Army" and the "Green Army " has issued a Fatwa against the Good People of Wyo,Mont,Idaho , Washington and Oregon........hell they have issued a Fatwa against America.
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2010, 06:34:18 AM »
Cattlemen: 
Evidence The Wolf Movement Wants To End All Grazing On Public Lands
http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/2005/articles01/mike_phillips_wolf_reintroductio.htm

(quote)
If you think about more liberal management on private land, it makes sense to consider what’s the situation on public land. I believe we can reduce or resolve wolf-livestock conflicts by managing wolves on public land more conservatively. Perhaps depredation on public land should never trigger a management action. Why, why should a cow take precedence over a wolf on public land? Those that support the cow would quickly discuss the economics of the situation -- that’s fair, but lets look at economics.  When considering economics you've got to realize only about 3% of the beef consumed in the U.S. comes from cattle grazed on public lands. Moreover, recent research has shown that you can substantially reduce grazing on public lands without have a negative and significant impact on Western economies.

It’s certain that we could reduce or resolve wolf-livestock conflicts on public land if we reconsider grazing. We could maybe change grazing practices on public lands. For example, maybe we should retire some allotments. Maybe some allotments should be validated without the stocking of livestock. At the latter ranch the Turner organization in cooperation with the USFS is doing just that. Two allotments, 72,000 acres, they developed a plan that allows the allotments to be validated without livestock being stock. The principle management tool is prescribed fire, to keep the grasses in a desirable state. Of course the Leopold Wilderness, where these allotments occur, within the Gila National Forest is critically important to recovery of the Mexican Wolf especially if livestock use of the Gila can be reduced.

We should- if you wanna talk about wolves and livestock, you gotta talk about the Taylor Grazing Act.  We should consider repealing or amending the Taylor Grazing Act. That certainly would facilitate a reconsideration of grazing on public land. You know 1934 when president Franklin Roosevelt singed the act into law, the idea was that public land could be improved by leasing it to ranchers who would make improvements and take care of the place. In reality, many studies have been conducted; many experts have concluded that the act has only succeeded in transferring millions of acres of public land to the private sector for a token fee. I-I- you gotta get into the Taylor Grazing Act  if you wanna understand wolf-livestock conflicts. Did you know that permittees only pay about $1.35 per AUM -- animal unit month -- a cow and a calf for a month- or 5 sheep for one month, is the unit of consideration for the Taylor Grazing Act. $1.35 per AUM to graze on public land, yet the program costs $13-$15 to administer? Did you know that during 1999 fees for grazing on private, non-irrigated lands was $11 per AUM? Did you know that during the 1980s, 30,000 ranchers in 11 western states, grazed cattle on approximately 300,000,000 acres of public land? That’s 16% of the land surface of the continental U.S. That’s an area that stretches from Maine to Florida. Now I could continue with the "Did you know that?" questions about the Taylor Grazing Act,  but I think the point is made. The Taylor Grazing Act is tantamount to a big public giveaway of public land. Modifying or repealing the act would certainly change the way public land is used and that would reduce wolf-livestock conflicts.

That said; know that any effort to think about the Taylor Grazing Act  is going to be met with keen opposition. Colleagues of the Sierra Club informed me that when Dr. Debra Donahue, a law professor from the University of Wyoming, published her recent book entitled, The Western Range Revisited, the Wyoming Senate president, Jim Twyford, began drafting a bill eliminating the University’s College of Law. The stakes are high and change is an uphill battle.

Nonetheless, considering grazing on public land is extremely important because, quite simply, the millions of acres of public land in the west represent the very best last place for wolves. Social tolerance ultimately defines the capacity of a landscape to support wolves. Social tolerance has been and always will be greatest on public land. Any campaign to advance wolf recovery on public land will be met with great opposition. That’s a certainty.

And finally, I think we can reduce wolf-livestock conflicts, we can resolve wolf-livestock conflicts, by considering the size of the footprint that attends every decision that we make. You know, it’s been estimated that humans have wasted 25% of the world’s topsoil and 20% of the We've. lands. We cut 33% of the forest. We’ve established the annual habit of consuming 45% of the net photosynthetic productivity and 55% of the available fresh water. Our habits as consumers are creating a world where there’s little room for wolves or anything else for that matter.

We are voracious consumers, even of costly items. And one of the most costly- socially, ecologically, and physically is beef. Some facts from Jeremy Rifkin’s book entitled, Beyond Beef -- you gotta see these facts.

Some 100,000 cows are slaughtered everyday in the U.S. Americans consume 23% of all beef in the world. Beef is the most dangerous food in pesticide contamination, ranks second- I'm sorry, in herbicide contamination; Ranks second in pesticide contamination; Ranks third in insecticide contamination.

You know it takes 9 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef in a feedlot steer? You know a middle-class American adult consumes 2,000 pounds of grain each year, 80% in the form of cattle or some other livestock. An Asian adult, in contrast, consumes 300-400 pounds of grain.

The consumption of grain fed beef by a privileged few -- while millions go without the minimum daily caloric requirements -- is a crisis of epic proportions.
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Offline Lowedog

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2010, 09:44:54 AM »
Interesting read from one of the founders of Save Western Wildlife...an extremist viewpoint?  You decide. 

Taken from his blog here... http://blog.freecoyote.com/

His website... http://www.freecoyote.com/Home_Page.html


Quote
                                         EARTH WORSHIP ; A RELIGION OF DEATH

                  I was a senior in high school in 1968, I watched the world on a black and white TV and made up my mind that I would not go to Vietnam. I saw the protesters, I knew the protesters and I believed that the war was wrong. As it turned out I did not have to go to Vietnam. Nixon ended the War and I felt a sense of accomplishment, my generation had stopped a War,we had saved lives,we had changed the world.

                Liberals stopped the Vietnam War but somewhere in all the protesting,demonstrating and activism they became addicted to " Social Disobedience".The accomplishment of stopping the Vietnam War spawned thousands of Revolutionaries. After the Vietnam War they were everywhere, and no where, they stalked the land looking for causes, like 'Junkies looking for a fix"". They became "Lost Souls", who loved Revolution for Revolutions sake.They became Little Castro's trapped in the Cuba of their mind, unfortunately they were among us and not in Cuba.


After Vietnam these advocates for change needed a cause,needed a fix , they decided to save the Earth . These advocates for change challenged all the social standards none more so than the institution of religion, but man needs order and seeks communion. So whether consciously or unconsciously these advocates for change created a new religion based on the belief that the chaos of wilderness is in fact holy. This belief relieves man of any responsibility for the chaos of wilderness and in fact makes him a criminal for trying to subdue the chaos of wilderness in any way.

This worship of chaos plays into the very heart of man and so strikes a chord in all the young who look at a world run a muck and want to run away,but no one here gets out alive. Responsibility is unavoidable and nature is not God, God is not nature. The natural world is our responsibility, man is the" balance of nature", no other organism on planet Earth has the capacity to understand this concept. Earth worship believes that man should extract himself from nature, that left alone nature will balance itself. That is like believing that if you wait long enough you will become a virgin again.

  Earth worship opened Pandora's box, the push to save the planet became the new religion.  Religious sects sprang up over night  " The Sierra Club", PETA etc. all churches, all passing the plate. These organizations fed the fires of revolution that still burned in the bellies of those still hung over from the "60's".

Women demanded equality, gays and lesbian's came out of their closets the "old moral values" , sank like the Titanic into the cold sea of indifference. The rules no longer applied we had "broke on through to the other side", we were living in Jim Morrison's mind. But for every action there is an equal and positive reaction", Aids is that positive reaction, suddenly we were reminded that we are not above it all. Aids sobered the world, another Door of perception was opened, however this Door was different. Aldous Huxley's "Doors of Perception" suddenly became" Doors of Reception". We were introduced to the impossibilities the possibilities that had seemed endless were at an end.

Faith in anything demands discipline on the part of the believer and the believed. Faith is homage paid as recognition of position. What ever you are paying homage to must maintain that superior  position.

What happened in earth worship was that pristine wilderness was interpreted as divine. But whether you are worshiping virgin wilderness or virgins the superior position of either can only be maintained by containing man. Man cannot create wilderness but he can de-flower it .The chaos of wilderness has only one master ,that is Man .The jungle has only one master, that is man. Sooner or later the faithful want to be more than just a congregation of custodians.

 The discipline of the disciple is paramount in any religion, Jews, Christians, Muslims and Earth Worshipers all have their disciples. But  it is a  fundamental truth that disciples need something to worship and it is also a fundamental truth that what ever they choose to worship must be worthy of their adoration. With the Jewish and Christian faiths Life holds the Superior Position.  With Earth Worship, Death, and Islam? Death.  Islam could stop the Suicide Bombers  today if it wanted to. They choose to do nothing, they choose death.

When Yellowstone Park burned, that next spring there were thousands of deaths from starvation not to mention the deaths in the fire itself.Then came the Wolf, in the year 2000 there were 19,000 Elk in the Northern Yellowstone Elk herd by 2003 that herd had been reduced to 9450 today they hover around 7000. Christians wouldn't support this kind of devastation. Jews wouldn't support this kind of devastation. It runs contrary to everything that they believe in.

What is the responsibility of the Chaos in Wilderness? It is not the same responsibility that is expected of the Order that is found in Judaism and Christianity. The Chaos of Islam can be seen in the madrassa's; the mind numbing prayers of brain washing that leads them by their hearts to do the unthinkable. Because for them Life is unimaginable, this is death.

 Earth Worship and Islam have a problem with Creation, one is secular the other religious. Earth Worship can see nothing beyond  the creation. It is very one dimensional much like those who thought the world was flat. They can not conceive of a Creator. Islam can conceive of a Creator they just have a problem with who the Creator prefers. So they kill everybody to show their displeasure and in so doing prove why they are not the Chosen People.

Earth Worshipers have embraced the wolf . Never mind the negative connotations that come with the Wolf. Never mind that he has not attained any Superior Position that is Positive. Just recognize his Omnipotence as an Angel of Death . Islam has embraced the Suicide Bomber another Angel of Death, both of these religions have done so out of frustration and hatred.

The Wyoming I grew up in was perfect, we had timbering, we had wildlife, we had livestock, sheep and cattle. While we had been caring for Wyoming both the East and West coast were being Raped. When they were through with Raping their parts of America they started on us and that is where we are today. The terror that the wolf brings is not imagined, the hatred that he represents for the people that he has been unleashed upon is not imagined either. You don't unleash a Wolf on your neighbor. No one except a muslim would do to his neighbor what these people have done to us is not Christian.

Islam has fought many battles with the Jews and every time they have gotten their asses kicked .They are frustrated beyond reason they can not admit they are WRONG.  Much like the Earth Worshipers who burn our forests and have killed and are killing thousands of Deer,Elk,Moose they can see the destruction but won't admit they are WRONG , both traffic in Death.

Now if you smoke Pot you can add 6000 Dead Mexicans to your bone pile, that is the estimated number of Mexicans killed trying to get you your weed last year. So if you are a Wolf Lover, Smoke Pot and are Pro-Choice you are standing in a pile of bones that the Buffalo are starting to remember and most important of all no one will call you Christian, but a Muslim might call you Brother.

 

                                                                      Todd Fross

                                                                   Freecoyote.com

"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal."
— Aldo Leopold

Offline Special T

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2010, 10:31:41 AM »
I think the author of dirt worship is spot on... I do hate it however when an author uses another hot topic, in this case Islam, to bolster their position.. I'm sure we've heard the saying "you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything"... I think that is what the author is trying to get at...I believe it is in our nature to require "faith" I think when we do not turn inward to try and improve ourselves  and our situation through reflection/religion there is  an emptiness that eats at us. Some of us try to fill that void with booze, sex, politics/power, or other things that we cannot control... Being consumed with these things focuses us on others instead of where we can make the biggest difference.
I believe that hunters have a sense of purpose.... and hunting is not the main focus but rather a tool for teaching ourselves and others...
I think it is unfortunate that We hunters have 1 irreconcilable difference with many environmentalists.. We believe that natural resources  are renewable and can be managed for a grater benefit for everyone... "We can make the pie bigger so more can have a slice." This is in direct confrontation with our environmental brethren...Whom believe that our presence/existence detracts from the greatness of it all.
Balancing the carrying capacity of the land and increasing it were possible  is the goal of most hunter conservationists... There nothing less satisfying than beautiful scenery that is void of wild things. Many of us hunters have been to these places of beauty, but the eeriness of the silence and void of animals make us uneasy..
I believe changing that irreconcilable difference must come by us hunters by filling the void of many "Dirt Worshipers" by sharing the positive experiences of the hunt.
The Truth is like Poetry, and most people hate Poetry

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2010, 01:18:17 PM »
I am sure there are people who agree with either side but far more in the middle with no exposure to the facts yet.

From what I can see, the pro-management side has presented a multitude of factual news reports from communities which have been affected by wolves and the pro-wolf side has presented a whole lot of emotion.  ;)   :IBCOOL:


I am trying to look at this from a nuetral position, it seems an educated person without prejudice would go with the facts.   :dunno:

I see a whole lot of emotion from the extreme fringes of both sides.  Going to the lengths of joining a small community message board because you were summoned by one of your cohorts to try and discredit and even insult one member because they have a different view is a little extreme in my view.  Especially when you consider that most of those doing so probably never heard of the Methow Valley.  

It is also difficult to think of you as being neutral when you have stated in other discussions that you think that we should oppose wolves altogether.  

Lowedog,
You completely misunderstood, I am definitely not nuetral on the wolf issue. I beleive wolves need to be closely managed and not allowed to overpopulate.  :chuckle:
I was trying to imagine if a person was nuetral, how would they look at the arguments presented. (I would think they would choose the side which had common sense facts supporting their claims.)

Someone needs to step up and inform people what is occuring in Idaho and Montana, the greenies have no qualm presenting their side of the story. Had the greenies not started this whole wolf fiasco, none of us would be wasting so much time trying to preserve what is left of our big game herds in the west. (that does really matter to some of us)

FYI - I find the wolf issue in the Methow just as important as in Colville, or in Idaho, MT, or Wyoming. As FreeCoyote pointed out "we are all in this together". These wolves are an interstate population that will multiply and destroy our game herds everywhere if we dont manage them. :twocents:

CosmicRose managed to remove the post because we were making the greenies look bad, but there most likely will be another wolf thread, I will post the link so you can follow.
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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2010, 02:20:52 PM »
I guess I did misinterpret what you said.  I guess what I should have said is it would be very difficult to look at this from a neutral position when your views are so apparently one sided.

CosmicRose managed to remove the post because we were making the greenies look bad, but there most likely will be another wolf thread, I will post the link so you can follow.

The only ones who looked bad were the people that converged on that forum to discredit and flame one person who has different views than they do.  That was pretty pathetic.  Perhaps if your friends weren't so far out on the extremist side of the anti wolf movement you could get across to people like CosmicRose.  Besides you, your friends and CosmicRose no one else was involved in that conversation. ( if you could call it a conversation)  The only reason I found it is that I followed the link from your facebook cause.  Maybe it was deleted because it was bordering on harassment?  :dunno: 

FYI - I find the wolf issue in the Methow just as important as in Colville, or in Idaho, MT, or Wyoming. As FreeCoyote pointed out "we are all in this together". These wolves are an interstate population that will multiply and destroy our game herds everywhere if we dont manage them. :twocents:

You, your friends and myself are definitely not all in this together. 
"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal."
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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2010, 02:31:55 PM »
Sounds like someone is in bed with Rose! :chuckle:

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2010, 02:35:18 PM »
Quote
You, your friends and myself are definitely not all in this together.


Again you misunderstood, I did not mean "we" are together on the issue, obviously "we" are not.
I meant we are all going to get wolves, you, me, the others who posted (including cosmic rose), and anyone else who lives in any state close to wolf country.

Lowedog as hard as it may be for you to understand this, I used to think as recently as this spring that a managed population of wolves would be acceptable. I am fast learning that I am probably going to be forced to be completely against wolves because the other side does not want to meet in the middle.

One of these days you may realize this if you study the issue. The other side wants wolves to replace all hunters and they do not want a compromise.  ;)

THAT IS ANOTHER FACT, whether you like it or not. :twocents:

I do not plan on handing them our game herds and our lifestyle on a silver platter to butcher as they please.....
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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2010, 02:49:22 PM »
Bearpaw, you talk like I don't understand what is going on with wolves.  They are just a tool being used by both sides of this issue.  I have studied the issue enough to know where each side is coming from and neither of them represent me.  What I am seeing more of from your side is bullying and intimidation to get what you want.  I don't like that tactic. 

And finnman, is that the best you got?  :rolleyes:

"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal."
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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2010, 03:01:28 PM »
  Bearpaw it's no use arguing with a :tree1:
Molôn Labé
Can you skin Grizz?

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Offline coop2424

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Re: Methow Valley Bulletin Board... Wolf Wars.
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2010, 03:12:30 PM »
Lowedog...  I would like to know where you stand on the subject.  If you do not agree with either side (Pro-wolf or proper management)  Is there another side that I am not seeing here with all the wolf discussions?

 

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