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Author Topic: WOW! Somebody is upset!  (Read 18482 times)

Offline Guzman

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2011, 08:14:51 PM »
I saw this and figured I would post up to provide another persective.

First off I am a guide in the Moses Lake area, but I do not guide on the Pot Holes.

Most of the floating blinds out there are not guides blinds. They are average joes who live around here. My buddy Mike for example has one. I think Echternkampt has one that he he bought this year. I don't even know if he is ussing it. I don't know if Mar Don has one. From most of the posts and the original banner most of the "guides" are actually retired guys out with a couple of their buddies. Second there just aren't that many guides out on pot holes. My guess is that it would be less that 5% of the hunters. The overall impact is very low. To add to it there are so many areas to hunt it seems like a non issue to me.

In terms of fields leasing, which I would be a culprit yes it is limiting out guys. One thing to take into consideration is that we have taken farms that 2 people would hunt all year and opened it up to 100 people to hunt. Second it is the farmers land. It is their choice, and the guides are bring money into the farmers, who otherwise were not getting money. This is a country that was founded on capitilism. Leased property is a trend that is not going anywhere. Even if you took the guides out it the land would quickly be absobed into clubs. If for instance I could not guide that would be the first thing I would do would be to set up a club.

Offline ICEMAN

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2011, 08:32:40 PM »
Sounds alot like some of the guides in the rivers over here....
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Offline gadwall

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2011, 10:17:46 PM »
Why not just get in the blinds first and keep the guided hunters from using them that way, rather than destrying the blinds. It is first come, first serve. Public land, so they are public blinds, no matter who built them.

 :yeah:

I agree with this approach.  Let's not risk any more bad image or press for the general, law abiding hunting public.  In todays world we can't afford that as hunters.

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Offline Ray

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2011, 10:30:34 PM »
I do agree there should be NO permanent blinds on public land floating or on the dunes! Mardons has been doing it for years they think the potholes are there personal play grounds. Oh and their arrogant as %$## and the game dept. won't touch them.

There are blinds in some places which are already permanent. It's good to see a disabled person come and hunt (especially veterans) in permanent blinds.

Offline sakoshooter

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2011, 01:06:23 AM »
I saw this and figured I would post up to provide another persective.

First off I am a guide in the Moses Lake area, but I do not guide on the Pot Holes.

Most of the floating blinds out there are not guides blinds. They are average joes who live around here. My buddy Mike for example has one. I think Echternkampt has one that he he bought this year. I don't even know if he is ussing it. I don't know if Mar Don has one. From most of the posts and the original banner most of the "guides" are actually retired guys out with a couple of their buddies. Second there just aren't that many guides out on pot holes. My guess is that it would be less that 5% of the hunters. The overall impact is very low. To add to it there are so many areas to hunt it seems like a non issue to me.

In terms of fields leasing, which I would be a culprit yes it is limiting out guys. One thing to take into consideration is that we have taken farms that 2 people would hunt all year and opened it up to 100 people to hunt. Second it is the farmers land. It is their choice, and the guides are bring money into the farmers, who otherwise were not getting money. This is a country that was founded on capitilism. Leased property is a trend that is not going anywhere. Even if you took the guides out it the land would quickly be absobed into clubs. If for instance I could not guide that would be the first thing I would do would be to set up a club.

Guzman,
Guides do not 'open' up any land to hunters. Leasing a farm that 2 hunters would hunt and stating you opened it up to 100 hunters is just wrong. Those 100 hunters pay dearly for the priviledge. There's no 'open' to it.
I'd also beg to differ with you on your percentages of guide filled blinds on Potholes.
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Offline sakoshooter

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2011, 01:20:34 AM »
So, do you want to stop big game guides in the Wilderness and NF areas also  :dunno:

You're jumping to conclusions now.
I don't have much good to say about the condition some big game guides have left certain areas of the NF and some wilderness areas in after they've moved on. All I'm saying is that it should be policed somehow.
When we allow hunting and fishing to completely turn into a rich man's sport, you and I will be nothing but spectators.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 12:22:45 AM by sakoshooter »
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Offline Guzman

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2011, 05:49:00 AM »
Guzman,
Guides do not 'open' up any land to hunters. Leasing a farm that 2 hunters would hunt and stating you opened it up to 100 hunters is just wrong. Those 100 hunters pay dearly for the priviledge. There's no 'open' to it.
I'd also beg to differ with you on your percentages of guide filled blinds on Potholes.

One point that I was trying to make is a lot of the "guides" are not guides. Everyone is saying get to the blind first and take it etc. Most of the perminate blinds are not guides. How is everyone differentiating the guides from public guys?

The point I was trying to make was that previously very few people hunted or had access to hunt the farms that I hunt. Now on those farms many people hunt it. Do they pay yes. Do they pay dearly no.

With all of hunting times are changing and will change. Point in fact there are more people in this state and less waterfowl. Leases now cost more, yet there are less birds. Guiding is and probably will be less profitable in the future. There are less guides now than there were just 5 years ago. I think they same can and will be said about the general public in that there will be less birds and will require more work than 5 years ago. It is a progression that comes with increased population. You have more people vying for the same resourse.

Offline CP

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2011, 07:01:49 AM »

 How is everyone differentiating the guides from public guys?


Guides get paid.

Therefore they are profiting off of a public resource.  That should be illegal or at the very least highly taxed and highly regulated.  Every person profiting off exploitation of public resources should have to post a sizable bond as insurance against damage to that resource caused by their actions and they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

But all that would require too much overhead for the state & feds to regulate.  Best option is to simply ban commercial exploitation (e.g. guides) from public land.

Guide all you want on private land, itís a free and capitalistic country, but donít take from the general public by exploiting the few resources that we have left.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 07:20:31 AM by CP »

Offline wastickslinger

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2011, 07:06:13 AM »
I saw this and figured I would post up to provide another persective.

First off I am a guide in the Moses Lake area, but I do not guide on the Pot Holes.

Most of the floating blinds out there are not guides blinds. They are average joes who live around here. My buddy Mike for example has one. I think Echternkampt has one that he he bought this year. I don't even know if he is ussing it. I don't know if Mar Don has one. From most of the posts and the original banner most of the "guides" are actually retired guys out with a couple of their buddies. Second there just aren't that many guides out on pot holes. My guess is that it would be less that 5% of the hunters. The overall impact is very low. To add to it there are so many areas to hunt it seems like a non issue to me.

In terms of fields leasing, which I would be a culprit yes it is limiting out guys. One thing to take into consideration is that we have taken farms that 2 people would hunt all year and opened it up to 100 people to hunt. Second it is the farmers land. It is their choice, and the guides are bring money into the farmers, who otherwise were not getting money. This is a country that was founded on capitilism. Leased property is a trend that is not going anywhere. Even if you took the guides out it the land would quickly be absobed into clubs. If for instance I could not guide that would be the first thing I would do would be to set up a club.

Well put. I agree. I think there are too many average Joes that just think hey can show up and hunt where they want and expect no one else to be there. The guys who have hunted the Potholes for year know they have to get up early to get to the good spots.

Offline bearpaw

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2011, 07:14:20 AM »
I saw this and figured I would post up to provide another persective.

First off I am a guide in the Moses Lake area, but I do not guide on the Pot Holes.

Most of the floating blinds out there are not guides blinds. They are average joes who live around here. My buddy Mike for example has one. I think Echternkampt has one that he he bought this year. I don't even know if he is ussing it. I don't know if Mar Don has one. From most of the posts and the original banner most of the "guides" are actually retired guys out with a couple of their buddies. Second there just aren't that many guides out on pot holes. My guess is that it would be less that 5% of the hunters. The overall impact is very low. To add to it there are so many areas to hunt it seems like a non issue to me.

In terms of fields leasing, which I would be a culprit yes it is limiting out guys. One thing to take into consideration is that we have taken farms that 2 people would hunt all year and opened it up to 100 people to hunt. Second it is the farmers land. It is their choice, and the guides are bring money into the farmers, who otherwise were not getting money. This is a country that was founded on capitilism. Leased property is a trend that is not going anywhere. Even if you took the guides out it the land would quickly be absobed into clubs. If for instance I could not guide that would be the first thing I would do would be to set up a club.

Guzman,
Guides do not 'open' up any land to hunters. Leasing a farm that 2 hunters would hunt and stating you opened it up to 100 hunters is just wrong. Those 100 hunters pay dearly for the priviledge. There's no 'open' to it.
I'd also beg to differ with you on your percentages of guide filled blinds on Potholes.

I have a few relavent points to add to this discussion that I hope will put some things in perspective for some of the folks who have an open mind.

1.  People who dislike guides insist that hunting guides cater to the rich. This a false statement from people who don't know what they are talking about. Nearly all of our hunters are just average people who are carpenters, firemen, policemen, salesmen, factory workers, mill workers, loggers, taxidermists, boeing workers, microsoft employees, plumbers, accountants, people with other common jobs, parents taking their kids on a good hunt for a graduation or birthday present, and a lot of retired seniors from all professions who do not want to be alone in the mountains for personal safety reasons or for help getting their game out.

2.  I have leased property that was previously closed to hunting because a few bad apples had left gates open, littered, etc. After we leased, the landowner was happy that we were actually policing the place for trespassers. This has been a win/win, the property is again being hunted and the hunters who are hunting there are no longer hunting the areas they used to hunt so hunting pressure was lessened in other areas. The hunters are getting a higher quality hunt because they are hunting ground that was previously unhunted, not because they are hunting property that all kinds of other people were already hunting. In many cases the landowner was against deer as they eat his crops, now they are happy to feed the deer since they are a part of the ranch income.

3.  Guiding is extremely restrictive on the National Forest. A special use permit is required and fees are collected based on the amount of use. Permittees are given about 10 pages of rules to follow. Camp sites are registered and if any guide is destructive, they will have to answer for it with likely loss of permit for repeat offenses. Guides are held to a much higher standard than any other hunters. If the persons you observed were actually guides, then they would have to answer for any mess they created to the supervising forest officer. I would suspect your story about misuse use involved public hunters or illegal guides.

4.  Potholes may not be an area where a guide must be permitted. So I can not comment about that, but I can tell you for a fact, guides are extremely regulated on any National Forest.

5.  Guide Licensing - Many states have a licensing program where all guides must be licensed. Washington does not have licensing for hunting guides. But I can tell you from experience of being in business in Washington for many years. The good guides are all still in business and the bad guides all eventually quit because customers do not return to hunt with poor guides. Just watch the threads on this forum, bad guides will be chastised by unhappy hunters just as taxidermists are chastised for a low quality mount. I do not beleive that guide licensing is always the best answer, the extra regulation has a cost, and that cost gets passed on to the consumer (hunters). That is a major reason why my hunts in other states cost more than my hunts in Washington. I have to recover all the licensing fees in what I charge for hunts in those states.

6.  Fees - Remember as with any other profession, the higher of fees you want the guide to pay, the higher the cost will be to the consumer. This is the exact mentality that has put us into more taxes in Washington and across the US and has led to a higher cost to consumers for goods and services. Is this really the best answer?

7.  Insurance - To be permitted on the forest, any guide must have liability insurance to protect his hunters against injury. My landowners are also covered by this insurance so that is one big reason landowners allow guides, it lessens their legal risk.

8.  First Aid - Myself and all my guides are trained in first aid and CPR as are any other permitted or licensed guides. This is a requirement which lessens the risk to hunters we serve and reduces the legal risk to landowners.

9.  I agree with Guzman, people know that leasing ground allows them better hunting opportunities so leasing is not going to go away even if guiding was outlawed. Many hunters only want to hunt once or twice a year, so a lease of their own or a club and all the scouting is often more cost than they want, it's cheaper for a hunter to use the services of a good guide a couple times a year than to try and lease a place for themself or do all the scouting. The same is true with fishing guides, it's way cheaper to hire a good guide a few times a year than to try and own a boat, all the fishing gear, and keep up with fishing trends. No different than using a travel agent to set up your vacation.

10.  I see the argument all the time that a hunter doesn't deserve his animal if he goes with a guide. Please let me ask these questions: Do you deserve the fish if you fish from a boat you didn't build yourself or if you use a fish finder? Do you deserve to bowhunt if you didn't build your own bow and arrows? Do you deserve to have a knife if you didn't learn the art of knife building and build it yourself? Do you deserve a vacation if you use a travel agent or go with a group on a cruise boat or fly on a commercial airline or use a rental car or taxi? Do you deserve to eat in a restaurant when you don't cook your own food? Do you deserve to simply buy any groceries you want if you didn't till the soil and water the crops every day? Do you think you should have to do your own taxes? Do you think that computer owners should have to design all their own software for their own computer? I didn't think so, and that is exactly how ridiculous this mentality is!

There are other points but perhaps this is enough to answer a few questions in many peoples minds about guides and to refute some of the misinformation and opiniated attitudes.
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Offline grundy53

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2011, 08:06:03 AM »

 How is everyone differentiating the guides from public guys?


Guides get paid.

Therefore they are profiting off of a public resource.  That should be illegal or at the very least highly taxed and highly regulated.  Every person profiting off exploitation of public resources should have to post a sizable bond as insurance against damage to that resource caused by their actions and they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

But all that would require too much overhead for the state & feds to regulate.  Best option is to simply ban commercial exploitation (e.g. guides) from public land.

Guide all you want on private land, itís a free and capitalistic country, but donít take from the general public by exploiting the few resources that we have left.


Well by your standards then we should have the logging companies quit logging on dnr land since they make a profit. You see how good that's been in the NF. I have never used a guide but I have nothing against them either and the public land is for the  public. They are part of the public just as much as you and me.
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Offline CP

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2011, 08:16:06 AM »

Well by your standards then we should have the logging companies quit logging on dnr land since they make a profit. You see how good that's been in the NF. I have never used a guide but I have nothing against them either and the public land is for the  public. They are part of the public just as much as you and me.

Logging companies should (and do) pay for the logs.

Offline Ray

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2011, 08:20:43 AM »
The person who has the hunting license is harvesting the animal. They probably paid for the license just like everyone else.

Offline CP

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2011, 08:28:12 AM »
The person who has the hunting license is harvesting the animal. They probably paid for the license just like everyone else.

As they should.  Licensed hunters hunt away, I have no issue with that, but still:

Every person profiting off exploitation of public resources should have to post a sizable bond as insurance against damage to that resource caused by their actions and they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

Offline Ray

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2011, 08:30:40 AM »
Quote
they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

This sounds like the typical ambiguous goal that a government is good at setting yet not achieving with any semblence of  measurable success.

If the guide is not actually harvesting the animal then are they really exploiting something in such a way that they are damaging a resource? If they are not harvesting an animal then what resource are they potentially going to damage?

Offline CP

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2011, 09:19:05 AM »
Weíll have to agree to disagree on this issue Ray. 

Iíve long believed guides need to pay their way; probably been conditioned to this belief by encounters with aggressive guides over the years:

blocking boat launches, trails and forest roads, trying to intimate people off public lands and waters, overfishing and overhunting the public areas then moving off to private

Offline Madison

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2011, 09:49:28 AM »
I'd rather hunt next to the guides that are out there in the shotholes than most of the average joes

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2011, 10:04:38 AM »
Quote
they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

This sounds like the typical ambiguous goal that a government is good at setting yet not achieving with any semblence of  measurable success.

If the guide is not actually harvesting the animal then are they really exploiting something in such a way that they are damaging a resource? If they are not harvesting an animal then what resource are they potentially going to damage?

Right on Ray, and guess what, friends of ours like Bearpaw employee people, pay business taxes (and many other fees), contribute to the local economy and provide a valuable service to individuals that are willing to pay for it.  If I want to pay for a guide and I want to go hunting on public ground (which I am paying taxes for) then I will ask the guide to take me there.  Don't get me wrong, anyone that is against guides and would be willing to take me out with them using their equipment for free, so that I don't pay a guide, I will be happy to take them up on an offer. 

Offline bearpaw

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2011, 11:26:29 AM »
The person who has the hunting license is harvesting the animal. They probably paid for the license just like everyone else.

As they should.  Licensed hunters hunt away, I have no issue with that, but still:

Every person profiting off exploitation of public resources should have to post a sizable bond as insurance against damage to that resource caused by their actions and they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

3.  Guiding is extremely restrictive on the National Forest. A special use permit is required and fees are collected based on the amount of use. Permittees are given about 10 pages of rules to follow. Camp sites are registered and if any guide is destructive, they will have to answer for it with likely loss of permit for repeat offenses. Guides are held to a much higher standard than any other hunters. If the persons you observed were actually guides, then they would have to answer for any mess they created to the supervising forest officer. I would suspect your story about misuse use involved public hunters or illegal guides.

To further elaborate, in addition to use fees for each day of use by each hunter, I also have to pay a fee for each camp site used. Now if you want to raise those fees dramatically, it will make hunting with a guide more costly. Because contrary to your way of thinking, it is not the guide who necessarily pays, it's the user that gets stuck, because to stay in business the cost has to be passed on to consumers.  :bash:
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://trophymaps.com "Do-It-Yourself" Hunting Maps" 
http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided, Semi-Guided, Unguided, and Drop Camp Hunts in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Washington. Hunts with tags available (no draw) spring bear, fall bear, buffalo, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, wolf!

Offline sakoshooter

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2011, 11:35:57 AM »

 How is everyone differentiating the guides from public guys?


Guides get paid.

Therefore they are profiting off of a public resource.  That should be illegal or at the very least highly taxed and highly regulated.  Every person profiting off exploitation of public resources should have to post a sizable bond as insurance against damage to that resource caused by their actions and they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

But all that would require too much overhead for the state & feds to regulate.  Best option is to simply ban commercial exploitation (e.g. guides) from public land.

Guide all you want on private land, itís a free and capitalistic country, but donít take from the general public by exploiting the few resources that we have left.


Well said CP.
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Offline Ray

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2011, 11:56:39 AM »
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this issue Ray. 

I’ve long believed guides need to pay their way; probably been conditioned to this belief by encounters with aggressive guides over the years:

blocking boat launches, trails and forest roads, trying to intimate people off public lands and waters, overfishing and overhunting the public areas then moving off to private

CP,

First, I respect your opinion and believe you have reached it based upon the experiences you described. I have heard countless reports like those before and believe those examples are a black stain on guides who do such things. At the same time I am always aware that there are two sides to every story and that is not just guide behavior. That doesn't mean I am discounting any specific reports of such behavior. It just means I know that in some cases tempers flare and there are some situations which could be avoided. I'll not dive any further on that detail other than to say that there are guides who would avoid any such behavior. People who are overfishing and overhunting as well as blocking launches, roads etc. - those are things which may be enforceable (depending on meaning of overfish and overhunt - does that mean poaching?). Unfortunately we know that the enforcement officers are not going to be available most of the time. If someone is overfishing and overhunting or otherwise doing anything illegal I intend to report them right away. Especially if they are poaching. Regulating overhunting and overfishing, as in taking more than their bag limit then it is not really a guide issue as much as it is a people issue. The guides go where the critters are, and so do other people. If we want to limit what their customers take then maybe we should be limiting harvest instead of guides.

-Ray

Offline CP

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2011, 12:15:26 PM »
The person who has the hunting license is harvesting the animal. They probably paid for the license just like everyone else.

As they should.  Licensed hunters hunt away, I have no issue with that, but still:

Every person profiting off exploitation of public resources should have to post a sizable bond as insurance against damage to that resource caused by their actions and they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

I understand how business works Bearpaw, pass your costs on to your customers, no one is saying that you shouldnít.

3.  Guiding is extremely restrictive on the National Forest. A special use permit is required and fees are collected based on the amount of use. Permittees are given about 10 pages of rules to follow. Camp sites are registered and if any guide is destructive, they will have to answer for it with likely loss of permit for repeat offenses. Guides are held to a much higher standard than any other hunters. If the persons you observed were actually guides, then they would have to answer for any mess they created to the supervising forest officer. I would suspect your story about misuse use involved public hunters or illegal guides.

To further elaborate, in addition to use fees for each day of use by each hunter, I also have to pay a fee for each camp site used. Now if you want to raise those fees dramatically, it will make hunting with a guide more costly. Because contrary to your way of thinking, it is not the guide who necessarily pays, it's the user that gets stuck, because to stay in business the cost has to be passed on to consumers.  :bash:

I understand how business works Bearpaw, pass your costs on to your customers, no one is saying that you shouldnít.

Offline Glockster

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2011, 12:25:59 PM »
I think when we lash out against fellow hunters (and guides are fellow hunters), we are lashing out at the wrong people!

I have been a duck hunter in this state since the 80's.  As a kid, I can remember hunting the public walk in areas like the farmed island unit at Skagit and Leque Islands.  More hunting licenses were sold back in the 70's -80's than now by over 40%!  There were more hunters back then and you know what?  We never had to get there at 1 am to hunt a good spot.  Why?  because there were so many spots in W. WA that people were not forced together in such small remaining areas by WDFW policies and urbanization.

Now fast forward 35yrs:  The Skagit wildlife area has been, for all intents and purposes, DESTROYED by WDFW's 'salmon restoration' programs.  Blow up the dikes and walk away...provide a "natural balance".  There are no more dairy farms to hunt on over here.  Regulated and taxed out of the westside.   Shoreline hunting on the Sound is severely restricted by "no shooting" ord's.  Where does the average guy have left where he can have a free roam hunt?  Potholes.

  

Offline singleshot12

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2011, 12:53:45 PM »

 How is everyone differentiating the guides from public guys?


Guides get paid.

Therefore they are profiting off of a public resource.  That should be illegal or at the very least highly taxed and highly regulated.  Every person profiting off exploitation of public resources should have to post a sizable bond as insurance against damage to that resource caused by their actions and they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

But all that would require too much overhead for the state & feds to regulate.  Best option is to simply ban commercial exploitation (e.g. guides) from public land.

Guide all you want on private land, itís a free and capitalistic country, but donít take from the general public by exploiting the few resources that we have left.


CP you are right on man and I don't care what anybody else says. The way things are heading all hunting and fishing will be guided or leased land hunts. Some of us don't ever want to hunt that way even if we could afford it.
NATURE HAS A WAY

Offline gasman

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2011, 04:17:15 PM »
So, do you want to stop big game guides in the Wilderness and NF areas also  :dunno:

You're jumping to conclusions now.
I don't have much good to say about the condition some big game guides have left certain areas of the NF and some wilderness areas in after they've moved on. All I'm saying ist that it should be policed somehow.
When we allow hunting and fishing to completely turn into a rich man's sport, you and I will be nothing but spectators.


I don't think so.

Where does it stop. Take one right  (or privelage) away, then another, then another. Where does it end.

Now we have devision of waterfowler hunters  :bash:

We need to ban together and fight for each others right wether you support there views or not. We are hunter....
Gasman


It's 5 O'clock somewhere.......

 

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