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Author Topic: WOW! Somebody is upset!  (Read 21065 times)

Offline singleshot12

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2011, 04:35:05 PM »
The growing guide trend has ruined many great traditional hunting and fishing grounds (private and public) over the last few years. Guides tend to lose respect for other sportsmen that aren't their clients and paying them.   I would love to see guides banned but that will never happen. I agree that destroying their blinds isn't right either and people should just try get to the blind early if they choose to play the public land game.
Private land?  I'm guessing already about 80% of the prime land is already tied up by the guides. It's getting real hard to find places to hunt and fish anymore unless you do it the pay to play way..    

Just read an article in Outdoor Life about local guys back east that live in the big buck areas not being able to hunt, even on relatives' land as it is all getting leased up.  Kinda sucks when the animals are a public resource.  IMHO anyone profiting from a public resource should be held to higher standards than the public. 

Maybe it is time to push for a per client guide fee that goes to a dedicated account that looks to increase public access to private land?

You said it lokidog I couldn't agree more..

Times are definitely changing
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Offline grundy53

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2011, 04:37:35 PM »
I love it, that is awesome whoever put that up.

Wow. That's a great attitude.... let's destroy someone else's stuff.  :bash: :bash:
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Offline DUCKDOWNER

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2011, 05:51:55 PM »
Get up earlier!!!! Their blinds are public property and first come first serve! Welcome to waterfowling in 2011. :cryriver: :stup:

Offline ducks55

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2011, 05:54:27 PM »
Get up earlier!!!! Their blinds are public property and first come first serve! Welcome to waterfowling in 2011. :cryriver: :stup:

And read what I wrote. I promise even if you get up at what you think is an early enough time you will not beat the guides to the blinds that are worth hunting.

Offline Bigtine96

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2011, 06:22:18 PM »
I love it, that is awesome whoever put that up.

Wow. That's a great attitude.... let's destroy someone else's stuff.  :bash: :bash:

It's just as much mine as theirs, Im not saying destroy anything but stick blinds if it is really getting that bad down there with commercial guiding. I dont hunt up there so I dont know. But as far as them bringing their own stuff in for blinds, leave it alone thats just wrong.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 06:29:19 PM by Bigtine96 »

Offline Guzman

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2011, 08:14:51 PM »
I saw this and figured I would post up to provide another persective.

First off I am a guide in the Moses Lake area, but I do not guide on the Pot Holes.

Most of the floating blinds out there are not guides blinds. They are average joes who live around here. My buddy Mike for example has one. I think Echternkampt has one that he he bought this year. I don't even know if he is ussing it. I don't know if Mar Don has one. From most of the posts and the original banner most of the "guides" are actually retired guys out with a couple of their buddies. Second there just aren't that many guides out on pot holes. My guess is that it would be less that 5% of the hunters. The overall impact is very low. To add to it there are so many areas to hunt it seems like a non issue to me.

In terms of fields leasing, which I would be a culprit yes it is limiting out guys. One thing to take into consideration is that we have taken farms that 2 people would hunt all year and opened it up to 100 people to hunt. Second it is the farmers land. It is their choice, and the guides are bring money into the farmers, who otherwise were not getting money. This is a country that was founded on capitilism. Leased property is a trend that is not going anywhere. Even if you took the guides out it the land would quickly be absobed into clubs. If for instance I could not guide that would be the first thing I would do would be to set up a club.

Offline ICEMAN

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2011, 08:32:40 PM »
Sounds alot like some of the guides in the rivers over here....
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Offline gadwall

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2011, 10:17:46 PM »
Why not just get in the blinds first and keep the guided hunters from using them that way, rather than destrying the blinds. It is first come, first serve. Public land, so they are public blinds, no matter who built them.

 :yeah:

I agree with this approach.  Let's not risk any more bad image or press for the general, law abiding hunting public.  In todays world we can't afford that as hunters.

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Offline Ray

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2011, 10:30:34 PM »
I do agree there should be NO permanent blinds on public land floating or on the dunes! Mardons has been doing it for years they think the potholes are there personal play grounds. Oh and their arrogant as %$## and the game dept. won't touch them.

There are blinds in some places which are already permanent. It's good to see a disabled person come and hunt (especially veterans) in permanent blinds.

Offline sakoshooter

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2011, 01:06:23 AM »
I saw this and figured I would post up to provide another persective.

First off I am a guide in the Moses Lake area, but I do not guide on the Pot Holes.

Most of the floating blinds out there are not guides blinds. They are average joes who live around here. My buddy Mike for example has one. I think Echternkampt has one that he he bought this year. I don't even know if he is ussing it. I don't know if Mar Don has one. From most of the posts and the original banner most of the "guides" are actually retired guys out with a couple of their buddies. Second there just aren't that many guides out on pot holes. My guess is that it would be less that 5% of the hunters. The overall impact is very low. To add to it there are so many areas to hunt it seems like a non issue to me.

In terms of fields leasing, which I would be a culprit yes it is limiting out guys. One thing to take into consideration is that we have taken farms that 2 people would hunt all year and opened it up to 100 people to hunt. Second it is the farmers land. It is their choice, and the guides are bring money into the farmers, who otherwise were not getting money. This is a country that was founded on capitilism. Leased property is a trend that is not going anywhere. Even if you took the guides out it the land would quickly be absobed into clubs. If for instance I could not guide that would be the first thing I would do would be to set up a club.

Guzman,
Guides do not 'open' up any land to hunters. Leasing a farm that 2 hunters would hunt and stating you opened it up to 100 hunters is just wrong. Those 100 hunters pay dearly for the priviledge. There's no 'open' to it.
I'd also beg to differ with you on your percentages of guide filled blinds on Potholes.
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Offline sakoshooter

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2011, 01:20:34 AM »
So, do you want to stop big game guides in the Wilderness and NF areas also  :dunno:

You're jumping to conclusions now.
I don't have much good to say about the condition some big game guides have left certain areas of the NF and some wilderness areas in after they've moved on. All I'm saying is that it should be policed somehow.
When we allow hunting and fishing to completely turn into a rich man's sport, you and I will be nothing but spectators.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 12:22:45 AM by sakoshooter »
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Offline Guzman

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2011, 05:49:00 AM »
Guzman,
Guides do not 'open' up any land to hunters. Leasing a farm that 2 hunters would hunt and stating you opened it up to 100 hunters is just wrong. Those 100 hunters pay dearly for the priviledge. There's no 'open' to it.
I'd also beg to differ with you on your percentages of guide filled blinds on Potholes.

One point that I was trying to make is a lot of the "guides" are not guides. Everyone is saying get to the blind first and take it etc. Most of the perminate blinds are not guides. How is everyone differentiating the guides from public guys?

The point I was trying to make was that previously very few people hunted or had access to hunt the farms that I hunt. Now on those farms many people hunt it. Do they pay yes. Do they pay dearly no.

With all of hunting times are changing and will change. Point in fact there are more people in this state and less waterfowl. Leases now cost more, yet there are less birds. Guiding is and probably will be less profitable in the future. There are less guides now than there were just 5 years ago. I think they same can and will be said about the general public in that there will be less birds and will require more work than 5 years ago. It is a progression that comes with increased population. You have more people vying for the same resourse.

Offline CP

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2011, 07:01:49 AM »

 How is everyone differentiating the guides from public guys?


Guides get paid.

Therefore they are profiting off of a public resource.  That should be illegal or at the very least highly taxed and highly regulated.  Every person profiting off exploitation of public resources should have to post a sizable bond as insurance against damage to that resource caused by their actions and they should have to pay to use that resource just as they would have to pay to use private land.

But all that would require too much overhead for the state & feds to regulate.  Best option is to simply ban commercial exploitation (e.g. guides) from public land.

Guide all you want on private land, it’s a free and capitalistic country, but don’t take from the general public by exploiting the few resources that we have left.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 07:20:31 AM by CP »

Offline wastickslinger

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2011, 07:06:13 AM »
I saw this and figured I would post up to provide another persective.

First off I am a guide in the Moses Lake area, but I do not guide on the Pot Holes.

Most of the floating blinds out there are not guides blinds. They are average joes who live around here. My buddy Mike for example has one. I think Echternkampt has one that he he bought this year. I don't even know if he is ussing it. I don't know if Mar Don has one. From most of the posts and the original banner most of the "guides" are actually retired guys out with a couple of their buddies. Second there just aren't that many guides out on pot holes. My guess is that it would be less that 5% of the hunters. The overall impact is very low. To add to it there are so many areas to hunt it seems like a non issue to me.

In terms of fields leasing, which I would be a culprit yes it is limiting out guys. One thing to take into consideration is that we have taken farms that 2 people would hunt all year and opened it up to 100 people to hunt. Second it is the farmers land. It is their choice, and the guides are bring money into the farmers, who otherwise were not getting money. This is a country that was founded on capitilism. Leased property is a trend that is not going anywhere. Even if you took the guides out it the land would quickly be absobed into clubs. If for instance I could not guide that would be the first thing I would do would be to set up a club.

Well put. I agree. I think there are too many average Joes that just think hey can show up and hunt where they want and expect no one else to be there. The guys who have hunted the Potholes for year know they have to get up early to get to the good spots.

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Re: WOW! Somebody is upset!
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2011, 07:14:20 AM »
I saw this and figured I would post up to provide another persective.

First off I am a guide in the Moses Lake area, but I do not guide on the Pot Holes.

Most of the floating blinds out there are not guides blinds. They are average joes who live around here. My buddy Mike for example has one. I think Echternkampt has one that he he bought this year. I don't even know if he is ussing it. I don't know if Mar Don has one. From most of the posts and the original banner most of the "guides" are actually retired guys out with a couple of their buddies. Second there just aren't that many guides out on pot holes. My guess is that it would be less that 5% of the hunters. The overall impact is very low. To add to it there are so many areas to hunt it seems like a non issue to me.

In terms of fields leasing, which I would be a culprit yes it is limiting out guys. One thing to take into consideration is that we have taken farms that 2 people would hunt all year and opened it up to 100 people to hunt. Second it is the farmers land. It is their choice, and the guides are bring money into the farmers, who otherwise were not getting money. This is a country that was founded on capitilism. Leased property is a trend that is not going anywhere. Even if you took the guides out it the land would quickly be absobed into clubs. If for instance I could not guide that would be the first thing I would do would be to set up a club.

Guzman,
Guides do not 'open' up any land to hunters. Leasing a farm that 2 hunters would hunt and stating you opened it up to 100 hunters is just wrong. Those 100 hunters pay dearly for the priviledge. There's no 'open' to it.
I'd also beg to differ with you on your percentages of guide filled blinds on Potholes.

I have a few relavent points to add to this discussion that I hope will put some things in perspective for some of the folks who have an open mind.

1.  People who dislike guides insist that hunting guides cater to the rich. This a false statement from people who don't know what they are talking about. Nearly all of our hunters are just average people who are carpenters, firemen, policemen, salesmen, factory workers, mill workers, loggers, taxidermists, boeing workers, microsoft employees, plumbers, accountants, people with other common jobs, parents taking their kids on a good hunt for a graduation or birthday present, and a lot of retired seniors from all professions who do not want to be alone in the mountains for personal safety reasons or for help getting their game out.

2.  I have leased property that was previously closed to hunting because a few bad apples had left gates open, littered, etc. After we leased, the landowner was happy that we were actually policing the place for trespassers. This has been a win/win, the property is again being hunted and the hunters who are hunting there are no longer hunting the areas they used to hunt so hunting pressure was lessened in other areas. The hunters are getting a higher quality hunt because they are hunting ground that was previously unhunted, not because they are hunting property that all kinds of other people were already hunting. In many cases the landowner was against deer as they eat his crops, now they are happy to feed the deer since they are a part of the ranch income.

3.  Guiding is extremely restrictive on the National Forest. A special use permit is required and fees are collected based on the amount of use. Permittees are given about 10 pages of rules to follow. Camp sites are registered and if any guide is destructive, they will have to answer for it with likely loss of permit for repeat offenses. Guides are held to a much higher standard than any other hunters. If the persons you observed were actually guides, then they would have to answer for any mess they created to the supervising forest officer. I would suspect your story about misuse use involved public hunters or illegal guides.

4.  Potholes may not be an area where a guide must be permitted. So I can not comment about that, but I can tell you for a fact, guides are extremely regulated on any National Forest.

5.  Guide Licensing - Many states have a licensing program where all guides must be licensed. Washington does not have licensing for hunting guides. But I can tell you from experience of being in business in Washington for many years. The good guides are all still in business and the bad guides all eventually quit because customers do not return to hunt with poor guides. Just watch the threads on this forum, bad guides will be chastised by unhappy hunters just as taxidermists are chastised for a low quality mount. I do not beleive that guide licensing is always the best answer, the extra regulation has a cost, and that cost gets passed on to the consumer (hunters). That is a major reason why my hunts in other states cost more than my hunts in Washington. I have to recover all the licensing fees in what I charge for hunts in those states.

6.  Fees - Remember as with any other profession, the higher of fees you want the guide to pay, the higher the cost will be to the consumer. This is the exact mentality that has put us into more taxes in Washington and across the US and has led to a higher cost to consumers for goods and services. Is this really the best answer?

7.  Insurance - To be permitted on the forest, any guide must have liability insurance to protect his hunters against injury. My landowners are also covered by this insurance so that is one big reason landowners allow guides, it lessens their legal risk.

8.  First Aid - Myself and all my guides are trained in first aid and CPR as are any other permitted or licensed guides. This is a requirement which lessens the risk to hunters we serve and reduces the legal risk to landowners.

9.  I agree with Guzman, people know that leasing ground allows them better hunting opportunities so leasing is not going to go away even if guiding was outlawed. Many hunters only want to hunt once or twice a year, so a lease of their own or a club and all the scouting is often more cost than they want, it's cheaper for a hunter to use the services of a good guide a couple times a year than to try and lease a place for themself or do all the scouting. The same is true with fishing guides, it's way cheaper to hire a good guide a few times a year than to try and own a boat, all the fishing gear, and keep up with fishing trends. No different than using a travel agent to set up your vacation.

10.  I see the argument all the time that a hunter doesn't deserve his animal if he goes with a guide. Please let me ask these questions: Do you deserve the fish if you fish from a boat you didn't build yourself or if you use a fish finder? Do you deserve to bowhunt if you didn't build your own bow and arrows? Do you deserve to have a knife if you didn't learn the art of knife building and build it yourself? Do you deserve a vacation if you use a travel agent or go with a group on a cruise boat or fly on a commercial airline or use a rental car or taxi? Do you deserve to eat in a restaurant when you don't cook your own food? Do you deserve to simply buy any groceries you want if you didn't till the soil and water the crops every day? Do you think you should have to do your own taxes? Do you think that computer owners should have to design all their own software for their own computer? I didn't think so, and that is exactly how ridiculous this mentality is!

There are other points but perhaps this is enough to answer a few questions in many peoples minds about guides and to refute some of the misinformation and opiniated attitudes.
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