Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: lokidog on September 28, 2017, 10:01:19 PM

Title: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: lokidog on September 28, 2017, 10:01:19 PM
http://www.islandssounder.com/news/san-juan-islands-are-overrun-by-deer/

Some interesting discussions on Facebook surrounding this.  One guy thinks that people should just ask the state for depradation permits... I wish - Hey WDFW give me three deer tags, the deer are eating my roses.....    :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on September 28, 2017, 10:36:40 PM
Guess they need to give some hunters permission to hunt their property.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: lokidog on September 28, 2017, 11:23:59 PM
That's what I've been saying on the Facebook thread.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: E35alex on September 29, 2017, 05:20:24 AM
I know a few people on Friday Harbor. They do not allow hunting on their property nor are they ok with hunters.  :dunno:

Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: RB on September 29, 2017, 07:41:43 AM
Never understood why people complain about wildlife but when the solution is to hunt and harvest the excess people immediately don't want anybody to kill "their" wildlife. As with other programs i would imagine there is a solution that would benefit all parties, land owner gets more $$ to let people hunt, hunters have to go through an orientation and be proficient with weapon choice and a WDFW representative needs to be available at all times.

How about rather than having to apply for second permit they make it over the counter and increase the limit? Even increase it more if you are a resident of the island, areas of SE AK do this. I would be inclined to go to the islands if there was better access and could harvest multiple Deer.  :twocents:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: goldenhtr on September 29, 2017, 07:58:42 AM
“I just cannot find enough places for enough people to go to kill enough deer to make a difference,” she said. “I’m not 100 percent convinced we could ever reduce the population with hunting as a tool alone. Because we can’t get enough people out on the landscape to kill enough deer we’re not ever going to reduce the population with hunting. We’re never going to reduce it, probably, totally all over the island. Don’t really know because we’ve never really tried.”

I know let's bring back a pack of wolfs on each island after all that was the natural way. :o ;) :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Bob33 on September 29, 2017, 08:01:58 AM
I hunt deer on a private San Juan island and have for over 30 years. The deer population lives on the edge of starvation and survival. It's sad that more can't be taken via hunting. I know that Ruth and others from WDFW have made concerted efforts to allow more hunting and obtain more permits but have been stymied.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Shrimper on September 29, 2017, 08:07:12 AM
How about rather than having to apply for second permit they make it over the counter and increase the limit? Even increase it more if you are a resident of the island, areas of SE AK do this. I would be inclined to go to the islands if there was better access and could harvest multiple Deer.  :twocents:

If that was the case I suspect these tags would be mostly purchased by the residence that don't approve of the hunting.  Only thing keeping them from doing that now is the hunter safety course requirement for applying for the tags.

After hunting many years on Orcas this is my personal experience.

There is hunting opportunity on Orcas but just like anywhere else you need to know people.  The biggest barrier is the San Juan Island Trust, they keep buying a lot of the large tracts of land and the trust does not allow hunting.

Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: lokidog on September 29, 2017, 08:46:08 AM

There is hunting opportunity on Orcas but just like anywhere else you need to know people.  The biggest barrier is the San Juan Island Trust, they keep buying a lot of the large tracts of land and the trust does not allow hunting.

Bingo!
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: RB on September 29, 2017, 09:25:40 AM

There is hunting opportunity on Orcas but just like anywhere else you need to know people.  The biggest barrier is the San Juan Island Trust, they keep buying a lot of the large tracts of land and the trust does not allow hunting.

Bingo!


Who is the San Juan Island Trust?
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: NoBark on September 29, 2017, 09:30:46 AM
A good winter kill and starvation event on the Island would be beneficial in opening the eyes of the preservationists that dislike the conservationists.   8)
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: jackmaster on September 29, 2017, 09:38:43 AM
Loki go on that Facebook page and recommend that a couple packs of wolves be released on the islands and see what kind of response you get😊 Please post them up here :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Gobble Doc on September 29, 2017, 10:09:58 AM
Under Obama one of the last couple chunks of public land to hunt on San Juan Island went away. I'm relieved that someone could tell me what was in my best interests.


Funding approved for purchase of Mitchell Hill; land will be annexed into San Juan Island National Historical Park
•   Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 4:20pm

Mitchell Hill, a 312-acre chunk of land that includes trails and a pristine portion of road built beginning in 1853 by the Hudson’s Bay Co., is on its way to becoming part of San Juan Island National Historical Park.
President Obama on Friday signed the bill that provides the funding for the purchase.
“With President Obama’s signature, the National Park Service now has $6 million available to purchase Mitchell Hill,” said Rep. Rick Larsen, who sponsored the bill. “This funding is a huge win for San Juan Island residents and future generations of visitors to San Juan Island National Historical Park.”
The U.S. House and Senate on Thursday approved appropriations legislation that includes the $6 million secured by Larsen. This funding was included in the conference report of the Interior and Environment Appropriations bill.
Larsen said in a press release at the time of the bill’s passage, “Protecting the historical and natural values of Mitchell Hill has been a priority for me for the last several years. Mitchell Hill is both a great place to go hiking and the home of an important part of San Juan Island history. Funding for Mitchell Hill will enhance recreational and educational opportunities for the over 250,000 visitors who visit San Juan Island National Historical Park each year.”
The funding will be used by the National Park Service to acquire more than 300 acres of land currently being managed by the Washington state Department of Natural Resources. Selling Mitchell Hill to the National Park Service has earned widespread support in the local community, including the endorsement of the National Parks Service, San Juan County, DNR and the San Juan Island Trails Committee.
Peter Dederich, superintendent of San Juan Island National Historical Park, said acquisition of Mitchell Hill will result in federal protection of the hill’s historical resources.
Within the 312 acres is a portion of the road that troops used to travel between American and English camps during the joint military occupation of 1859-1872. The road was initially built as a sheep run by Hudson’s Bay Co. and Cowichan laborers, and later improved by troops. Visible along portions of the road is rip-rap — rock placed by British troops to reinforce the road — as well as wheel ruts from wagons that once rolled along the road.
Mitchell Hill also supports various native plants and Garry oaks.
“The military road, in essence, captures the period before the U.S. took formal possession of San Juan Island when the boundary dispute was resolved,” said National Park historian Mike Vouri, author of three books about the joint military occupation era.
Vouri said Gov. James Douglas and a work crew initiated the first work on the trail, which became a sheep highway linking the grazing areas on the north and south ends of the island. American and British troops further developed the trail in the 1860s during the military occupation to facilitate communication between their camps.
“The military road symbolized peacekeeping, it tied one end of island with the other,” Vouri said. “This is very much a part of the island’s heritage.”
Besides its historical value, Mitchell Hill is also treasured by bicyclists, hikers and horseback riders.
David Dehlendorf, chairman of the San Juan Island Trails Committee, said the committee hopes to work with the national park to develop a management plan for the area. He said he hopes horses and non-motorized bikes will continue to be allowed to use the hill’s trails.
Dederich said acquisition of Mitchell Hill will be followed by a planning process to determine “appropriate visitor activities,” how trails will be maintained, and how the overall area will be managed. He said interpretive or trail signage could be installed. He said that once Mitchell Hill becomes part of the national park, the Code of Federal Regulations will apply, and “some of those regulations are stricter than the state’s.”

http://www.sanjuanjournal.com/news/funding-approved-for-purchase-of-mitchell-hill-land-will-be-annexed-into-san-juan-island-national-historical-park/


Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on September 29, 2017, 10:17:55 AM
Each island just needs their own pack of wolves, problem solved.  :IBCOOL:

Oh except Decatur Island, wouldn't wish that off on Lokidog.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: singleshot12 on September 29, 2017, 10:52:14 AM
No need for wolves. Coyotes would keep the numbers in check. Maybe once the deer hugging island residents observe a coyote pulling out a fawn from a doe's uterus will they possibly think allowing hunting is more humane and a better way to keep deer numbers in check  :dunno:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: lokidog on September 29, 2017, 12:00:25 PM
Loki go on that Facebook page and recommend that a couple packs of wolves be released on the islands and see what kind of response you get😊 Please post them up here :chuckle:

There was discussion about cougar and bear....

We had a jerk enviro here on Decatur that wanted to bring in coyotes.   >:(  He died a few years ago in a hiking fall, so no worries about that now.....   :o
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Special T on September 29, 2017, 02:08:25 PM
Loki go on that Facebook page and recommend that a couple packs of wolves be released on the islands and see what kind of response you get😊 Please post them up here :chuckle:

If it were possible to live trap a couple of be all for it.  The state rep for that area lives on Oscar and is a anti hunting wacko
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: luvmystang67 on September 29, 2017, 02:44:26 PM
I think it'd be great to bring back all these natural predators we supposedly killed off.

I'm pretty sure there's no tangible evidence that permanent populations of real predators lived on the islands over any long period of time since the last ice age.

I'm from Friday Harbor.  Most of the land I used to hunt has been picked up by the Land Preservation Trust.  It basically becomes county-owned land and then it is leased back to farmers.  We'll see how long it can keep up.  As the good ol crew passes on, a group run primarily by dems dictates the new order on the property.  They claim to keep it used as it was historically, they conveniently omit hunting from the history books.

It is thick with deer though, almost to the point of being very little fun past the age of 10.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: baker5150 on September 29, 2017, 02:59:17 PM
Loki go on that Facebook page and recommend that a couple packs of wolves be released on the islands and see what kind of response you get😊 Please post them up here :chuckle:

There was discussion about cougar and bear....

We had a jerk enviro here on Decatur that wanted to bring in coyotes.   >:(  He died a few years ago in a hiking fall, so no worries about that now.....   :o

Walker?
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: lokidog on September 29, 2017, 04:35:29 PM
Loki go on that Facebook page and recommend that a couple packs of wolves be released on the islands and see what kind of response you get😊 Please post them up here :chuckle:

There was discussion about cougar and bear....

We had a jerk enviro here on Decatur that wanted to bring in coyotes.   >:(  He died a few years ago in a hiking fall, so no worries about that now.....   :o

Walker?

Yes
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: hollymaster on September 29, 2017, 05:33:07 PM
Loki go on that Facebook page and recommend that a couple packs of wolves be released on the islands and see what kind of response you get😊 Please post them up here :chuckle:

There was discussion about cougar and bear....

We had a jerk enviro here on Decatur that wanted to bring in coyotes.   >:(  He died a few years ago in a hiking fall, so no worries about that now.....   :o

Wacko?
Fixed it for you.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: RB on September 29, 2017, 05:50:33 PM
Live trap them and relocate to any of the Puget sound GMU's and problem solved. The antis have a "safe" solution and the hunters have a solution, and a full freezer!  8)
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: fishnfur on September 29, 2017, 10:03:21 PM
There's no reason that land trust properties must be anti-hunting.  Over-browsing of native flora is very detrimental to those critical environments.  We just need to find the right messenger to persuade the "powers that be" that limited hunts are in the best interest of the environment being held in trust.

On the other hand, my extended family and I are in the process of selling a chunk of land on Guemes to the Skagit Land Trust.  They probably don't allow hunting either, so never mind what I said.... :o  We should probably all move on and find some other pass-time, like fishing, or darts.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Schmalzfam on September 30, 2017, 06:04:18 AM
I have a chunk of private land 80acres on Orcas I can hunt.
The landowner was telling me a few years back that someone from the game dept. Was talking about bringing mule deer back over AGAIN, to increase the size.....
She said it had been done in the past.
Has anyone else heard of this?
More public access would be a great way to start decreasing the numbers, but a lot of hunters avoid the islands, due to the lack of access.
Bringing the island genes, possible diseases, etc. To the mainland,  I think would be a mistake.
Not to mention, that some are so domesticated and clueless you would be just ringing a dinner bell for all the predators.

Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: fishnfur on October 01, 2017, 11:12:15 AM
Mule deer to the SJI?  Sounds like bad science (at least based on the studies I read and commented on about 18 months ago). 

Those island Blacktail are the size they are because of their environment, not genetics.  Removal of predators resulted in too many deer, which have over-utilized the food resources available and created scarcity of browse for the entire population.  When food is scarce for maternal does, it results in underweight fawns at birth.  Those fawns must then try to thrive through the same scarcity of food during their early growth phases.  As you might guess, after suffering malnutrition since they were just a few cells growing in the mothers placenta, a population of abnormally small adult deer eventually becomes the norm.   

If you took a freshly impregnated island doe and put her in an environment without food shortage, the fawn would likely be of normal birth size and grow to normal adult BT proportions, assuming it had adequate food during it's early years. 
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: JakeLand on October 01, 2017, 12:13:54 PM
Mule deer to the SJI?  Sounds like bad science (at least based on the studies I read and commented on about 18 months ago). 

Those island Blacktail are the size they are because of their environment, not genetics.  Removal of predators resulted in too many deer, which have over-utilized the food resources available and created scarcity of browse for the entire population.  When food is scarce for maternal does, it results in underweight fawns at birth.  Those fawns must then try to thrive through the same scarcity of food during their early growth phases.  As you might guess, after suffering malnutrition since they were just a few cells growing in the mothers placenta, a population of abnormally small adult deer eventually becomes the norm.   

If you took a freshly impregnated island doe and put her in an environment without food shortage, the fawn would likely be of normal birth size and grow to normal adult BT proportions, assuming it had adequate food during it's early years.
make sense to me   :tup:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Night goat on October 01, 2017, 03:30:20 PM
you guys obviously don't know the local san juan deer hunting secret method  :tup:

maybe lokidog knows it


you need two things....

a ball peen hammer....

and an apple


 :cue:

 :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: singleshot12 on October 01, 2017, 03:52:43 PM
you guys obviously don't know the local san juan deer hunting pet harvest secret method  :tup:

maybe lokidog knows it


you need two things....

a ball peen hammer....

and an apple
 

 :cue:

 :chuckle:

 fixed it for ya  :chuckle:  How does someone hunt pets or livestock  :dunno:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Shrimper on October 01, 2017, 04:14:00 PM
These deer provide the best venison, unbelievable how good it is. :EAT:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: singleshot12 on October 01, 2017, 04:16:14 PM
Except for the ones eating dog food, they tend to be very greasy.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: csaaphill on October 01, 2017, 05:39:05 PM
 :chuckle:
This reply takes the cake what an ass.

Having recently moved here from Camas Washington, where we were plagued by hunters shooting at all hours, and there were a more than plentiful supply of cougar, bear and coyote to keep populations in check, I have to say that I do not see that San Juan Island has a significantly larger deer population than the area we came from.

 As an avid gardener I understand the frustrations when overgrazing takes out your prize plants, and I can only imagine that in farming situations this is magnified a thousand fold, but weighing up the pros and cons with a new eye I think on balance we should leave the deer alone.

They are smaller but definitely less disease ridden than many on the mainland I have seen.

I am sure that there are more pressing environmental issues for us to consider, such as oil exports and refineries that could decimate our seas if something went wrong, I think it is prudent to pick our battles.





Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: csaaphill on October 01, 2017, 05:46:12 PM
The.... let bow hunters in was good. :twocents:
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: lokidog on October 01, 2017, 07:45:36 PM
Mule deer to the SJI?  Sounds like bad science (at least based on the studies I read and commented on about 18 months ago). 

Those island Blacktail are the size they are because of their environment, not genetics.  Removal of predators resulted in too many deer, which have over-utilized the food resources available and created scarcity of browse for the entire population.  When food is scarce for maternal does, it results in underweight fawns at birth.  Those fawns must then try to thrive through the same scarcity of food during their early growth phases.  As you might guess, after suffering malnutrition since they were just a few cells growing in the mothers placenta, a population of abnormally small adult deer eventually becomes the norm.   

If you took a freshly impregnated island doe and put her in an environment without food shortage, the fawn would likely be of normal birth size and grow to normal adult BT proportions, assuming it had adequate food during it's early years.

I agree, to a point.... I believe that after generations of being in the islands, and on different islands, the gene pool has shifted to favor smaller deer that need less winter browse/food to survive.  There is some genetic mixing between the islands to help keep things interesting, but I do think that if you took a deer from Decatur and fed it all it could eat, it would still be smaller than a deer on Lopez or the mainland.  The evidence to back this up is that there are pockets of deer on each of the islands that do not have a scarcity of food due to their home range happening to be in a food rich location like alfalfa near orchards, and these deer appear to be relatively the same size as all of the other deer on each island.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Night goat on October 01, 2017, 08:09:56 PM
what about the long term impact from Spieden island? heard a lot of rumors about those critters getting onto the other islands
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: lokidog on October 01, 2017, 08:20:48 PM
what about the long term impact from Spieden island? heard a lot of rumors about those critters getting onto the other islands

Like what, sheep/deer hybrids, fallow/blacktail hybrids?   :chuckle:  I've never heard of anything being seen on another island, though maybe the Mouflon on Stuart came from there....
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: kevinlisa06 on October 01, 2017, 08:22:09 PM
I just offered up my assistance in removing a deer or 2 see if I get bashed or not.


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Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Night goat on October 01, 2017, 08:42:12 PM
what about the long term impact from Spieden island? heard a lot of rumors about those critters getting onto the other islands

Like what, sheep/deer hybrids, fallow/blacktail hybrids?   :chuckle:  I've never heard of anything being seen on another island, though maybe the Mouflon on Stuart came from there....

seen some deer with a white backside, seen spotted deer.... that kinda stuff
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: lokidog on October 01, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
There are piebald deer on all of the islands, nothing to do with Spieden.  I've never heard of the others. Either way, there would not be enough of an impact to effect deer populations on other islands, IMO.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: wendigo on October 01, 2017, 09:38:49 PM
“I just cannot find enough places for enough people to go to kill enough deer to make a difference,” she said. “I’m not 100 percent convinced we could ever reduce the population with hunting as a tool alone. Because we can’t get enough people out on the landscape to kill enough deer we’re not ever going to reduce the population with hunting. We’re never going to reduce it, probably, totally all over the island. Don’t really know because we’ve never really tried.”



Give off islanders tags and directions to feel free to hunt properties and they will overload the ferry system coming over.

The problem will just solve itself when the population crashes. There are already a ton of piebald deer running around on that island which is a sure sign of a weak gene pool.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: fishnfur on October 02, 2017, 12:32:08 AM
“I just cannot find enough places for enough people to go to kill enough deer to make a difference,” she said. “I’m not 100 percent convinced we could ever reduce the population with hunting as a tool alone. Because we can’t get enough people out on the landscape to kill enough deer we’re not ever going to reduce the population with hunting. We’re never going to reduce it, probably, totally all over the island. Don’t really know because we’ve never really tried.”



The problem will just solve itself when the population crashes. There are already a ton of piebald deer running around on that island which is a sure sign of a weak gene pool.


The piebald gene will stay in that population just fine if there are not enough predators to remove them, and since it doesn't make them run slower, it is really only detrimental when you throw humans with guns into the mix.  Piebalds are found throughout most animal populations.  I bet they don't consider it a weakness.   ;)
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: fishnfur on October 02, 2017, 12:48:55 AM
Mule deer to the SJI?  Sounds like bad science (at least based on the studies I read and commented on about 18 months ago). 

Those island Blacktail are the size they are because of their environment, not genetics.  Removal of predators resulted in too many deer, which have over-utilized the food resources available and created scarcity of browse for the entire population.  When food is scarce for maternal does, it results in underweight fawns at birth.  Those fawns must then try to thrive through the same scarcity of food during their early growth phases.  As you might guess, after suffering malnutrition since they were just a few cells growing in the mothers placenta, a population of abnormally small adult deer eventually becomes the norm.   

If you took a freshly impregnated island doe and put her in an environment without food shortage, the fawn would likely be of normal birth size and grow to normal adult BT proportions, assuming it had adequate food during it's early years.

I agree, to a point.... I believe that after generations of being in the islands, and on different islands, the gene pool has shifted to favor smaller deer that need less winter browse/food to survive.  There is some genetic mixing between the islands to help keep things interesting, but I do think that if you took a deer from Decatur and fed it all it could eat, it would still be smaller than a deer on Lopez or the mainland.  The evidence to back this up is that there are pockets of deer on each of the islands that do not have a scarcity of food due to their home range happening to be in a food rich location like alfalfa near orchards, and these deer appear to be relatively the same size as all of the other deer on each island.

To a certain extent, I agree with you.  It makes total sense that smaller bodied deer need less food and are thus more successful in staying in the population long enough to breed.  The question is how much genetic effect has this increased survival and breeding success had on that population,  (considering that there are not massive die-offs due to starvation) during the relatively short period of time since predators were removed from the islands?  Not that much, me thinks. You can change genetic phenotypes (outward appearance of an animal based on genetic expression) pretty quickly if you isolate just a few individuals and cross them for the traits your trying to achieve (like dogs), but groups of wild animals take a lot of time to change an entire population.

We've beat this dead horse before, so this is definitely my last whack.   :)
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: predatorG on October 02, 2017, 06:29:20 AM
I played a team from orcas island in a basketball tournament in June. They said lots of the same things.

If I recall, several eastern states allow you to shoot multiple deer after purchasing a tag. I'm not sure how the deer levels on San Juan compare to certain whitetail areas, but the suggested over the counter second deer tag that someone suggested sounded like a fine idea to me.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: fishnfur on October 02, 2017, 07:24:55 PM
A free second tag if you tag out on a doe for your first one would go a long way in cutting down the reproductive rates.
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: lokidog on October 02, 2017, 10:12:45 PM
A free second tag if you tag out on a doe for your first one would go a long way in cutting down the reproductive rates.

WI has/had areas called Earn a Buck where that was the case, though the second tag wasn't free. I'd shoot a doe if the tag were $20... and I could still fill my buck tag.  ;)
Title: Re: The Poor Orcas Islanders... too many deer
Post by: Night goat on October 02, 2017, 10:32:23 PM
if I could get 2 deer on orcas, it wouldn't matter if they had a rack or not. meat is meat