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Title: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 17, 2017, 08:04:11 AM
Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-administration-lifts-ban-on-imports-of-elephant-hunting-trophies/
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 17, 2017, 08:14:45 AM
I saw this.  :tup: I bet the animal rights people are losing their minds right now.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: RB on November 17, 2017, 08:21:03 AM
I saw this.  :tup: I bet the animal rights people are losing their minds right now.  :chuckle:


 :yeah:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: C-Money on November 17, 2017, 08:23:56 AM
Thats cool...maybe he can tackle the predator problems out west now?
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 17, 2017, 08:29:14 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bigtex on November 17, 2017, 08:34:10 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: olyguy79 on November 17, 2017, 08:35:15 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:yeah:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 17, 2017, 08:35:35 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.

 :tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: olyguy79 on November 17, 2017, 08:43:16 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Stein on November 17, 2017, 09:03:58 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

Language providing clear guidance on how and when animals will be removed to limit or prevent groups from suing.  One of the big issues is that animals go on and almost never are removed.  Lawsuits can keep them on the list decades after they should be removed. 
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 17, 2017, 10:20:41 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: wapiti hunter2 on November 17, 2017, 10:53:40 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!

Case 3: Wild Horses:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Special T on November 17, 2017, 11:00:20 AM
I belive he instructed to EPA to no longer engage in settling with groups, doing away with the air and settle tactic.

If that is expanded to USFS & USFWS that would go a long way to helping these issues.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bigtex on November 17, 2017, 11:04:44 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!
Case 3: Wild Horses:
Wild horses are protected under another law, not the ESA.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: olyguy79 on November 17, 2017, 11:14:08 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?
1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!
So essentially your saying since there's 60,000 wolves in North America they shouldn't be endangered anywhere. Does that mean since mountain lions/cougars are endangered in Florida they should be endangered nationwide?

It seems like you want an all or nothing approach vs. the regional approach we currently have.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bigtex on November 17, 2017, 11:14:37 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?
2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!
Proof is required, that's why NMFS and USFWS decline to list species every year. You have people like a retired WA DOF biologist in the Olympia area who has petitioned NMFS to essentially list every salmon/steelhead/bottomfish in WA, most of which NMFS has declined to list.

The biggest issue I've seen is the de-listing. USFWS/NMFS goes to de-list and bam lawsuit which many times is upheld by a judge.

You can't put a blanket number on the recovery of all species because I would assume most would agree that 1,000 wolves is different than 1,000 steelhead.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on November 17, 2017, 11:43:17 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!

Now if you're gonna say wolves shouldn't have protection anywhere because there are 60,000 of them in North America, you can't say caribou are going extinct when there are about 1 to 2 million of them in North America.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on November 17, 2017, 11:46:02 AM
As to the OP, I find it ironic that the symbol of the Republican Party is the elephant. 
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Special T on November 17, 2017, 02:33:40 PM
I saw this.  :tup: I bet the animal rights people are losing their minds right now.  :chuckle:


 :yeah:
I  know a couple that are and it makes me chuckle. No amount of explanation seems to penetrate how much conservation funding comes from managed hunting in africa.  Renewable resources are important, except when they are animals.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Angry Perch on November 17, 2017, 05:25:00 PM
That didn't last long. The reversal is now on hold.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Bookworm007 on November 17, 2017, 06:09:09 PM
Never really understood shooting an animal as just a trophy.... If you aren't going to eat it why not let it be, especially when elephants are populations are on decline.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 17, 2017, 06:29:54 PM
Never really understood shooting an animal as just a trophy.... If you aren't going to eat it why not let it be, especially when elephants are populations are on decline.
Please educate yourself about elephant hunting and African hunting in general. Every bit of the animal is eaten or utilized in some way by locals and neighbors. They are very appreciative and flock to the kill sites. Elephant hunting benefits the animals and communities in many ways.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bigtex on November 17, 2017, 07:00:41 PM
Trump has just ordered the lifting of the ban to be placed on hold.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: boneaddict on November 17, 2017, 07:40:31 PM
Does this have any effect on the ivory trade?
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Humptulips on November 17, 2017, 09:02:34 PM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!

Now if you're gonna say wolves shouldn't have protection anywhere because there are 60,000 of them in North America, you can't say caribou are going extinct when there are about 1 to 2 million of them in North America.
You might want to look that up. Boreal Woodland Caribou are listed as threatened in Canada. Don't confuse them with other caribou species which are abundant.
Consider this though, lynx are very abundant in Canada and AK. The lower 48 has a few but they are on the periphery of their range. WA, ID, MT, MN, and Maine have a few and this has spawned a raft full of lawsuits with intended purpose of stopping trapping in the mentioned states. Maine has been hit the hardest because they actually have a decent lynx population in the northern part of the state. They finally received an incidental take permit from the USFWS which as I remember limits them to 5 lynx over 7 years. Still they have problems because the lynx population is growing because of habitat changes (more logging). the difference of literally a few feet could mean the shut down of trapping in northern Maine or another Lynx pelt legally sent to market on the Canadian side.
Then you have Polar Bears which seem to be at or near a peak in population but are on the threatened list because of maybe global warming might effect them at some point in the future?
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: lokidog on November 17, 2017, 10:07:05 PM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!

Now if you're gonna say wolves shouldn't have protection anywhere because there are 60,000 of them in North America, you can't say caribou are going extinct when there are about 1 to 2 million of them in North America.
You might want to look that up. Boreal Woodland Caribou are listed as threatened in Canada. Don't confuse them with other caribou species which are abundant.
Consider this though, lynx are very abundant in Canada and AK. The lower 48 has a few but they are on the periphery of their range. WA, ID, MT, MN, and Maine have a few and this has spawned a raft full of lawsuits with intended purpose of stopping trapping in the mentioned states. Maine has been hit the hardest because they actually have a decent lynx population in the northern part of the state. They finally received an incidental take permit from the USFWS which as I remember limits them to 5 lynx over 7 years. Still they have problems because the lynx population is growing because of habitat changes (more logging). the difference of literally a few feet could mean the shut down of trapping in northern Maine or another Lynx pelt legally sent to market on the Canadian side.
Then you have Polar Bears which seem to be at or near a peak in population but are on the threatened list because of maybe global warming might effect them at some point in the future?

@olyguy79  There are different subspecies of animals that may or may not be endangered, Florida Panthers are not the same as Washington Cougars, Northern Timber Wolves are not the same as Mexican Gray Wolves or the Western Gray Wolf that used to live in WA. Woodland Caribou, Barren Ground Caribou, Mountain Caribou, Quebec-Labrador Caribou are not the same subspecies. 
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: wapiti hunter2 on November 18, 2017, 12:00:09 AM
Trump has just ordered the lifting of the ban to be placed on hold.

Bowing to public pressure.

https://apnews.com/457e895e968f444eb46a19da77f52562/Trump-delays-new-policy-on-importing-elephant-parts

"President Donald Trump said Friday he’s delaying a new policy allowing the body parts of African elephants shot for sport to be imported until he can review “all conservation facts.”

Aren't you suppose to know the facts before you make policy?  :bash:  :bash:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 18, 2017, 09:25:41 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!

Now if you're gonna say wolves shouldn't have protection anywhere because there are 60,000 of them in North America, you can't say caribou are going extinct when there are about 1 to 2 million of them in North America.
You might want to look that up. Boreal Woodland Caribou are listed as threatened in Canada. Don't confuse them with other caribou species which are abundant.
Consider this though, lynx are very abundant in Canada and AK. The lower 48 has a few but they are on the periphery of their range. WA, ID, MT, MN, and Maine have a few and this has spawned a raft full of lawsuits with intended purpose of stopping trapping in the mentioned states. Maine has been hit the hardest because they actually have a decent lynx population in the northern part of the state. They finally received an incidental take permit from the USFWS which as I remember limits them to 5 lynx over 7 years. Still they have problems because the lynx population is growing because of habitat changes (more logging). the difference of literally a few feet could mean the shut down of trapping in northern Maine or another Lynx pelt legally sent to market on the Canadian side.
Then you have Polar Bears which seem to be at or near a peak in population but are on the threatened list because of maybe global warming might effect them at some point in the future?

Thanks for explaining the difference between caribou species and for the other good examples.

For those that don't know this history of events! USFWS put themselves between a rock and a hard spot. There are numerous subspecies of wolves, there were some wolves of one subspecie in the NRM already and other wolves were naturally colonizing from southern Canada, but USFWS planted a somewhat larger subspecie which was trapped from farther north, in order to plant these wolves they said they are the same wolf. Well there are 60,000+ of those wolves in Canada and Alaska. I'm not the one who said it's all the same wolf, it was USFWS! Now wolf groups want to claim all these different subspecies exist again so that they can keep wolf populations in more states ESA listed. But after planting wolves from northern Canada, the population that has spread throughout all the NRM and west coast is arguable the same wolf as Canada and Alaska.

Wolves were delisted by the feds in the eastern 1/3 of Washington several years ago, at the same time as ID and MT, we could be hunting and regulating wolf numbers in eastern WA just like they are being regulated in Idaho but western WA won't let us!  :)
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 18, 2017, 09:37:18 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?
2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!
Proof is required, that's why NMFS and USFWS decline to list species every year. You have people like a retired WA DOF biologist in the Olympia area who has petitioned NMFS to essentially list every salmon/steelhead/bottomfish in WA, most of which NMFS has declined to list.

The biggest issue I've seen is the de-listing. USFWS/NMFS goes to de-list and bam lawsuit which many times is upheld by a judge.

You can't put a blanket number on the recovery of all species because I would assume most would agree that 1,000 wolves is different than 1,000 steelhead.

I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not trying to say there should be a blanket number that works for all animals, I'm simply saying if there are 60,000+ wolves and wolf populations are expanding then wolves are not endangered.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: huntnfmly on November 18, 2017, 09:47:47 AM
Never really understood shooting an animal as just a trophy.... If you aren't going to eat it why not let it be, especially when elephants are populations are on decline.
Please educate yourself about elephant hunting and African hunting in general. Every bit of the animal is eaten or utilized in some way by locals and neighbors. They are very appreciative and flock to the kill sites. Elephant hunting benefits the animals and communities in many ways.
:yeah:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 18, 2017, 10:01:42 AM
Never really understood shooting an animal as just a trophy.... If you aren't going to eat it why not let it be, especially when elephants are populations are on decline.
Please educate yourself about elephant hunting and African hunting in general. Every bit of the animal is eaten or utilized in some way by locals and neighbors. They are very appreciative and flock to the kill sites. Elephant hunting benefits the animals and communities in many ways.
:yeah:

I want to add a little additional info about how hunting benefits elephants and other species. Africa is an extremely poor continent, poachers abound trying to make money off wildlife parts. If elephant hunting is allowed hunters are willing to pay $30,000 to $50,000+ to shoot an elephant. This makes the animals more valuable than they are to poachers and local people police those animals far more aggressively to save the animals and keep the hunters coming. Hunting is a boon for local economies providing much needed income. When you take away hunting poaching increases, that has been proven in the countries that abolished elephant hunting. The countries that allow regulated sport hunting usually have the best populations of any species because hunters are willing to spend the money that is used to manage wildlife and keep wildlife abundant.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: huntnfmly on November 18, 2017, 10:15:35 AM
Very good point.
Once they put that value on the animals they protect them better anti groups don't understand that
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: huntnfmly on November 18, 2017, 10:21:08 AM
This might be Apple to oranges but this shows how antis think.
 There was a interview with the president of humane society about exotics on private ranches in Texas and said about a species that was only alive on these ranches should just be extinct because that type of hunting is wrong.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: beav1980 on November 18, 2017, 10:25:32 AM
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 18, 2017, 12:28:14 PM
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

Please explain the information you've used to come to your opinion. the individuals here in favor of lifting the ban have articulated their reasoning. Please do the same.

My guess is "your opinion" has no basis in fact, but instead is a result of your feelings.

ETA: lifting the ban on importation of elephant trophies is allowing these countries to manage their own wildlife. Those countries have chosen to allow non resident hunters to hunt their wildlife. Banning the importation of the resulting trophies is in essence trying to nullify their decision.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: lokidog on November 18, 2017, 10:55:56 PM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 19, 2017, 07:59:15 AM
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

I'm delighted to have the opportunity to clear up a few of your misconceptions regarding licensed trophy hunting in Africa. So, these countries are poor. Take the southern white rhino. In 1960, there were 800 left. Today, there are over 20K living in the wild. Their recovery is due almost completely to breeding programs, habitat improvement, and anti-poaching patrols paid for with trophy hunting dollars. Look it up. The Northern white rhino hasn't been legally hunted for 40 years and faces extinction within 5 years. They can't afford the anti-poaching patrols necessary to protect them. Their habitat has been ruined by poverty, farming, and war. The success of the southern rhino is true of more than a dozen species across Africa. You seriously need to learn about conservation and how licensed hunting saves species if you're going to be a representative of our hunting culture. This is the tip of the iceberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_white_rhinoceros
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 19, 2017, 08:00:55 AM
Trump reinstated the ban yesterday. Huge mistake and will not only hurt the survival of these animals, but his image as a President who can make a decision and see it through.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: brush hunter on November 19, 2017, 08:54:43 AM
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?
2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!
Proof is required, that's why NMFS and USFWS decline to list species every year. You have people like a retired WA DOF biologist in the Olympia area who has petitioned NMFS to essentially list every salmon/steelhead/bottomfish in WA, most of which NMFS has declined to list.

The biggest issue I've seen is the de-listing. USFWS/NMFS goes to de-list and bam lawsuit which many times is upheld by a judge.

You can't put a blanket number on the recovery of all species because I would assume most would agree that 1,000 wolves is different than 1,000 steelhead.

I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not trying to say there should be a blanket number that works for all animals, I'm simply saying if there are 60,000+ wolves and wolf populations are expanding then wolves are not endangered.
  They are when I'm in the area.....
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 19, 2017, 09:07:18 AM
So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


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Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 19, 2017, 10:41:36 AM
So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


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Poaching is exactly that, poaching. It goes on regardless of weather or not there is legal hunting. However it is proven that in areas without legal hunting poaching goes up because there is no longer any reason or money to protect the animals. The conservation minded hunter and his money are the best protections available.

I know you are a fan of sheep. What would happen if we closed down all legal hunting in WA and all the concerned parties (FNAWS, WDFW, ect) took their money and went away, but there were still people around the world willing to pay big money for a rams horns? Without any repercussions for their actions the same people who illegally gill net Lenore, trespass to collect sheds, or shoot elk off feed stations, would be climbing the mountains looking for a payday.

Legal importation of trophy ivory has zero affect on the price or availability of illegal (poached) ivory. A set of legally taken trophy tusks are never going to be on the black market, so they have no affect on the price or availability in Asia or other places where it is bought and sold. Trophy ivory, like sheep horns is very regulated.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: ribka on November 19, 2017, 10:57:18 AM
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

The black market for ivory exists primarily in Asia and the middle east. Very little ivory gets smuggled into the US at least according a buddy who works for USFWS as an anti smuggling agent

What did the lion guy do wrong? What law did he break? Why wasn't he prosecuted?

The lion guy hunts Africa often and brought over $100k in US dollars to Africa over the years and that money supports the local economy and goes to anti poaching efforts. The meat from harvested game is donated to local villages. Do you know how many people an elephant can feed? A good deal of the native population would get zero protein without the animals shot by the evil trophy hunters. Americans and Europeans who are opposed to sport hunting in Africa have no clue about the living conditions there and the poverty levels and lack of food.

Its amazing that people who have never been to Africa and understand absolutely nothing about wildlife conservation, living conditions, the rampant poaching by the locals  want legal sport hunting shut down. Ironic the sport hunters bring tens of millions of dollars a year to Africa and people who complain do nothing and donate zero money to help out in African wildlife conservation.

Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 19, 2017, 11:02:43 AM
So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


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Importing trophies, especially ivory, include intense documentation of the hunt, the kill site, the animal's remains and their final disposition. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a trophy hunter to fake a kill just to get his/her hands on ivory. And why would you? Why wouldn't you just pay the money to go hunt the animal? In addition, the areas that have legal trophy hunting also have intense security to protect the resource. Game animal populations in those areas are healthy and protected due to the money coming in from the hunters. There is almost zero correlation between legal hunting and poaching in Africa. They don't happen in the same places. Take for example the area where Cecil was shot. When a hunting ban was introduced right after the news came out, security patrols were canceled and immediately, poaching caused the deaths of 60+ elephants. It is thought likely that some of the former park security were involved when that money for their paychecks dried up. Since, trophy hunting has been reinstated and the poaching has diminished.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 19, 2017, 02:03:07 PM
So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


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Poaching is exactly that, poaching. It goes on regardless of weather or not there is legal hunting. However it is proven that in areas without legal hunting poaching goes up because there is no longer any reason or money to protect the animals. The conservation minded hunter and his money are the best protections available.

I know you are a fan of sheep. What would happen if we closed down all legal hunting in WA and all the concerned parties (FNAWS, WDFW, ect) took their money and went away, but there were still people around the world willing to pay big money for a rams horns? Without any repercussions for their actions the same people who illegally gill net Lenore, trespass to collect sheds, or shoot elk off feed stations, would be climbing the mountains looking for a payday.

Legal importation of trophy ivory has zero affect on the price or availability of illegal (poached) ivory. A set of legally taken trophy tusks are never going to be on the black market, so they have no affect on the price or availability in Asia or other places where it is bought and sold. Trophy ivory, like sheep horns is very regulated.
Elephant hunting is legal though and used widely as a management tool in areas with elephant population issues. It’s just the import of ivory that is not currently legal. So who’s to say that once (hypothetically) ivory import is legalized and the demand for it in the US goes up, poaching doesn’t go up? I’m not seeing the logic. Yet. I’m open minded, but I’m not on board yet.


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Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 19, 2017, 02:40:13 PM
So admittedly sometimes I don’t see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I don’t see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just don’t see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. I’m a little thick headed sometimes.


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Poaching is exactly that, poaching. It goes on regardless of weather or not there is legal hunting. However it is proven that in areas without legal hunting poaching goes up because there is no longer any reason or money to protect the animals. The conservation minded hunter and his money are the best protections available.

I know you are a fan of sheep. What would happen if we closed down all legal hunting in WA and all the concerned parties (FNAWS, WDFW, ect) took their money and went away, but there were still people around the world willing to pay big money for a rams horns? Without any repercussions for their actions the same people who illegally gill net Lenore, trespass to collect sheds, or shoot elk off feed stations, would be climbing the mountains looking for a payday.

Legal importation of trophy ivory has zero affect on the price or availability of illegal (poached) ivory. A set of legally taken trophy tusks are never going to be on the black market, so they have no affect on the price or availability in Asia or other places where it is bought and sold. Trophy ivory, like sheep horns is very regulated.
Elephant hunting is legal though and used widely as a management tool in areas with elephant population issues. It’s just the import of ivory that is not currently legal. So who’s to say that once (hypothetically) ivory import is legalized and the demand for it in the US goes up, poaching doesn’t go up? I’m not seeing the logic. Yet. I’m open minded, but I’m not on board yet.


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The lifting of this ban does not legalize the wholesale import of ivory into the United States. It simply allows documented legally taken trophies to be brought home. Importation and sale of ivory from other sources will remain illegal. There is very little demand for ivory in the United states, it is almost all sent to Asian countries.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 19, 2017, 02:51:03 PM
Ivory is only banned for certain animals.  The times that elephant ivory is restricted makes it much more desirable for ivory mining in Siberia, where they dig up old mammoths.  Makes basically the same trinkets and potions in Asia with it.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Dan-o on November 19, 2017, 03:49:04 PM
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

I'm delighted to have the opportunity to clear up a few of your misconceptions regarding licensed trophy hunting in Africa. So, these countries are poor. Take the southern white rhino. In 1960, there were 800 left. Today, there are over 20K living in the wild. Their recovery is due almost completely to breeding programs, habitat improvement, and anti-poaching patrols paid for with trophy hunting dollars. Look it up. The Northern white rhino hasn't been legally hunted for 40 years and faces extinction within 5 years. They can't afford the anti-poaching patrols necessary to protect them. Their habitat has been ruined by poverty, farming, and war. The success of the southern rhino is true of more than a dozen species across Africa. You seriously need to learn about conservation and how licensed hunting saves species if you're going to be a representative of our hunting culture. This is the tip of the iceberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_white_rhinoceros

The White Rhino case study is (to me) a perfect example of why it is good for species to be legally hunted.

I think the parallels probably hold true for elephants.

Personally, I have no interest in shooting an elephant, but I think if someone goes over and legally takes one, he should be able to bring back what he wants.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: trophyhunt on November 19, 2017, 03:55:30 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 19, 2017, 04:06:53 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: trophyhunt on November 19, 2017, 04:15:30 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.
Honestly the older I get the more I think about the intelligence of animals. I think most hunters don’t live for the kill, it’s the hunt we need.  Bears are smart, I have killed a few of them, I’m now picky about which bear I’ll take.  Passed up a medium sized bear this past spring.  Elephants to me are just too cool, and remember, I said I’d never go against hunters rights even if I’ll never hunt that species. Coyotes are damn smart, but they kill a crap ton of small deer, and they will never be eaten by me, so they must die!   :chuckle:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 19, 2017, 04:26:51 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 19, 2017, 04:47:48 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: KFhunter on November 19, 2017, 04:47:49 PM
I would like more people to kill bears in areas where deer are struggling to retain fawns, that's enough reason for me.  I understand not wanting to eat it, but I could give it away very quickly, I've had numerous people ask. 

Title: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 19, 2017, 04:55:35 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.

I have a very open mind. I’ve gone on bear hunts with friends. Glassed for bears for friends. Backpacked miles to show friends where bears live. I just don’t have any interest in shooting one myself. It’s not something up for debate for me personally. I don’t give a hoot what anyone else thinks. I’m not interested in shooting a bear. And it shouldn’t be. I’ll shoot lions, wolves, coyotes, elk, deer, blah blah blah. If a guy doesn’t want to shoot something, perfect! That’s his choice.
This specific topic is regarding elephants. We should probably try and keep it that way.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Bob33 on November 19, 2017, 05:13:20 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Being capable of expressing the rationale for an opinion, and choosing to voluntarily do so are two differnt things. I thought most people would understand that. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 19, 2017, 05:15:42 PM
Just imagine the size of a bull elephant euro mount.  :yike:

I’ve had elephant jerky, tough but tasty.

I support all legal hunting, some species just aren’t for everyone.  :twocents:

Mine is grizzlies, why kill one if you aren’t going to eat it.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: trophyhunt on November 19, 2017, 05:19:05 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Just because we don’t want to kill elephants has nothing to do with having an open mind, you’ll never convince me to hunt and kill elephants. But if you want to, and if your ever in need of my vote so you can, you got it! I think your taking this personally.   
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 19, 2017, 05:29:48 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Just because we don’t want to kill elephants has nothing to do with having an open mind, you’ll never convince me to hunt and kill elephants. But if you want to, and if your ever in need of my vote so you can, you got it! I think your taking this personally.   

Well said, sir!!


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Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 19, 2017, 05:35:26 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.

I have a very open mind. I’ve gone on bear hunts with friends. Glassed for bears for friends. Backpacked miles to show friends where bears live. I just don’t have any interest in shooting one myself. It’s not something up for debate for me personally. I don’t give a hoot what anyone else thinks. I’m not interested in shooting a bear. And it shouldn’t be. I’ll shoot lions, wolves, coyotes, elk, deer, blah blah blah. If a guy doesn’t want to shoot something, perfect! That’s his choice.
This specific topic is regarding elephants. We should probably try and keep it that way.

I wasn't trying to change the subject to bears, but trying to find a correlation between intelligent animals. Maybe a pig would have been a better choice.

The subject of this thread is the lifting of the ban on trophy ivory importation. There are a lot of uninformed people making comments and generalizations on the subject here and elsewhere. I'm just trying to get some of them to think a little deeper before making those statements or making up their mind.

I see many similarities between this subject, and deer/bear baiting, and hound hunting. Hunters who were apathetic to, or against hound hunting and bear baiting helped pass initiative 655.

The ban of trophy ivory importation effects almost none of us. The unorganized uninformed approach to subjects like this by hunters as a group will eventually affect us all in one way or another.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Dan-o on November 19, 2017, 05:42:08 PM
QUOTE FROM BRITT-DOG:
So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.

When you write stuff like this, it doesn't come off like you're trying to educate anyone.    It comes across very much like you want to argue.       :twocents:

You basically said that Jackalope isn't capable of thinking at your level.    I've never met the man, but.........
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 19, 2017, 05:55:36 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Just because we don’t want to kill elephants has nothing to do with having an open mind, you’ll never convince me to hunt and kill elephants. But if you want to, and if your ever in need of my vote so you can, you got it! I think your taking this personally.   

Well said, sir!!


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My comment to your open mindedness or lack of, is regarding the original subject, trophy ivory importation. I really don't care if you or Trophyhunt (ironic username) want to shoot elephants, and never tried to make this thread about elephant hunting specifically. I started out trying to educate some posters on the negative affects of the ban and the positives of elephant hunting as a whole. Unfortunately like me, your mind was made up before you ever posted.

I think its pretty funny how offended people get when asked to articulate their stated position on a subject.

Trophyhunt: I really would like to know where you draw the line on which animal you would or wouldn't shoot based on their level of intelligence. I am constantly amazed at the level of intelligence displayed by the animals I hunt, I have nothing but respect for them. If I used that as a gauge for what is worthy or not, I probably wouldn't hunt.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 19, 2017, 05:57:05 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Being capable of expressing the rationale for an opinion, and choosing to voluntarily do so are two differnt things. I thought most people would understand that. I stand corrected.
My mistake thinking people posting on a discussion forum would want to discuss. I stand corrected.
Title: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 19, 2017, 06:02:41 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Just because we don’t want to kill elephants has nothing to do with having an open mind, you’ll never convince me to hunt and kill elephants. But if you want to, and if your ever in need of my vote so you can, you got it! I think your taking this personally.   

Well said, sir!!


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My comment to your open mindedness or lack of, is regarding the original subject, trophy ivory importation. I really don't care if you or Trophyhunt (ironic username) want to shoot elephants, and never tried to make this thread about elephant hunting specifically. I started out trying to educate some posters on the negative affects of the ban and the positives of elephant hunting as a whole. Unfortunately like me, your mind was made up before you ever posted.

I think its pretty funny how offended people get when asked to articulate their stated position on a subject.

Trophyhunt: I really would like to know where you draw the line on which animal you would or wouldn't shoot based on their level of intelligence. I am constantly amazed at the level of intelligence displayed by the animals I hunt, I have nothing but respect for them. If I used that as a gauge for what is worthy or not, I probably wouldn't hunt.

1-If you read my first post on this topic, it was me asking legitimate questions.

2-I’m not offended. Never was. It would take a lot for you to offend me...especially on such a trivial thing in the grand scheme of my life.

The only point I was trying to make is that nobody should “need” to quantify anything to you or anyone else if that’s the way they feel. Trophyhunt doesn’t want to shoot an elephant because he likes their cute ears, done. Trophyhunt isn’t going to shoot an ele. You prying for more reasoning is uncalled for in my opinion.   He doesn’t need to explain to you or anyone.

I had a recent experience with a once in a lifetime mountain goat hunt here in WA. I told everyone I didn’t want to shoot a nanny and I didn’t want to shoot a billy over 300 yards. Why? Because I didn’t want to.  Reason enough.  My friends I hunted with who helped me supported that without question. 
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 19, 2017, 06:05:50 PM
QUOTE FROM BRITT-DOG:
So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.

When you write stuff like this, it doesn't come off like you're trying to educate anyone.    It comes across very much like you want to argue.       :twocents:

You basically said that Jackalope isn't capable of thinking at your level.    I've never met the man, but.........
I've never met him either, but I have lurked here for years and read plenty of his posts, he is more than a capable thinker. He originally said he was trying to see both sides of the issue, I was surprised by that, it is very black and white to me.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: trophyhunt on November 19, 2017, 06:39:05 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Just because we don’t want to kill elephants has nothing to do with having an open mind, you’ll never convince me to hunt and kill elephants. But if you want to, and if your ever in need of my vote so you can, you got it! I think your taking this personally.   

Well said, sir!!


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My comment to your open mindedness or lack of, is regarding the original subject, trophy ivory importation. I really don't care if you or Trophyhunt (ironic username) want to shoot elephants, and never tried to make this thread about elephant hunting specifically. I started out trying to educate some posters on the negative affects of the ban and the positives of elephant hunting as a whole. Unfortunately like me, your mind was made up before you ever posted.

I think its pretty funny how offended people get when asked to articulate their stated position on a subject.

Trophyhunt: I really would like to know where you draw the line on which animal you would or wouldn't shoot based on their level of intelligence. I am constantly amazed at the level of intelligence displayed by the animals I hunt, I have nothing but respect for them. If I used that as a gauge for what is worthy or not, I probably wouldn't hunt.
I don’t have a biology degree, I’m definetly no expert on which species is more intelligent than the other.  I would never kill an elephant, a dolphin or probably a polar bear.  I have no interest in African animals either, except for a kudu.  I don’t set my guidelines on what I hunt by their intelligence, but elephants are much more intelligent then most hunted animals. It’s just my opinion. And like I said, I’m no threat to your right or privalidge to hunt anything.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 19, 2017, 06:49:55 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Just because we don’t want to kill elephants has nothing to do with having an open mind, you’ll never convince me to hunt and kill elephants. But if you want to, and if your ever in need of my vote so you can, you got it! I think your taking this personally.   

Well said, sir!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My comment to your open mindedness or lack of, is regarding the original subject, trophy ivory importation. I really don't care if you or Trophyhunt (ironic username) want to shoot elephants, and never tried to make this thread about elephant hunting specifically. I started out trying to educate some posters on the negative affects of the ban and the positives of elephant hunting as a whole. Unfortunately like me, your mind was made up before you ever posted.

I think its pretty funny how offended people get when asked to articulate their stated position on a subject.

Trophyhunt: I really would like to know where you draw the line on which animal you would or wouldn't shoot based on their level of intelligence. I am constantly amazed at the level of intelligence displayed by the animals I hunt, I have nothing but respect for them. If I used that as a gauge for what is worthy or not, I probably wouldn't hunt.

1-If you read my first post on this topic, it was me asking legitimate questions.

2-I’m not offended. Never was. It would take a lot for you to offend me...especially on such a trivial thing in the grand scheme of my life.

The only point I was trying to make is that nobody should “need” to quantify anything to you or anyone else if that’s the way they feel. Trophyhunt doesn’t want to shoot an elephant because he likes their cute ears, done. Trophyhunt isn’t going to shoot an ele. You prying for more reasoning is uncalled for in my opinion.   He doesn’t need to explain to you or anyone.

I had a recent experience with a once in a lifetime mountain goat hunt here in WA. I told everyone I didn’t want to shoot a nanny and I didn’t want to shoot a billy over 300 yards. Why? Because I didn’t want to.  Reason enough.  My friends I hunted with who helped me supported that without question.

1- I really tried to answer them as best I could.

2- I wasn't trying to offend you or anyone else, that is counter productive. No one has to answer my questions or requests, but again, this is a discussion forum is it not?

3- I also had a oil goat permit in 2016. I passed several very long nannies and ended up shooting an 8.5" Billy. I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little disappointed in his size, there were larger billies to be had. I should have come back for another hunt. I would have eaten the tag before I shot a nanny, that's just good conservation. So is paid trophy hunting of elephants. Allowing a narrow scope of ivory importation promotes that.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 19, 2017, 07:31:09 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Just because we don’t want to kill elephants has nothing to do with having an open mind, you’ll never convince me to hunt and kill elephants. But if you want to, and if your ever in need of my vote so you can, you got it! I think your taking this personally.   

Well said, sir!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My comment to your open mindedness or lack of, is regarding the original subject, trophy ivory importation. I really don't care if you or Trophyhunt (ironic username) want to shoot elephants, and never tried to make this thread about elephant hunting specifically. I started out trying to educate some posters on the negative affects of the ban and the positives of elephant hunting as a whole. Unfortunately like me, your mind was made up before you ever posted.

I think its pretty funny how offended people get when asked to articulate their stated position on a subject.

Trophyhunt: I really would like to know where you draw the line on which animal you would or wouldn't shoot based on their level of intelligence. I am constantly amazed at the level of intelligence displayed by the animals I hunt, I have nothing but respect for them. If I used that as a gauge for what is worthy or not, I probably wouldn't hunt.

1-If you read my first post on this topic, it was me asking legitimate questions.

2-I’m not offended. Never was. It would take a lot for you to offend me...especially on such a trivial thing in the grand scheme of my life.

The only point I was trying to make is that nobody should “need” to quantify anything to you or anyone else if that’s the way they feel. Trophyhunt doesn’t want to shoot an elephant because he likes their cute ears, done. Trophyhunt isn’t going to shoot an ele. You prying for more reasoning is uncalled for in my opinion.   He doesn’t need to explain to you or anyone.

I had a recent experience with a once in a lifetime mountain goat hunt here in WA. I told everyone I didn’t want to shoot a nanny and I didn’t want to shoot a billy over 300 yards. Why? Because I didn’t want to.  Reason enough.  My friends I hunted with who helped me supported that without question.

1- I really tried to answer them as best I could.

2- I wasn't trying to offend you or anyone else, that is counter productive. No one has to answer my questions or requests, but again, this is a discussion forum is it not?

3- I also had a oil goat permit in 2016. I passed several very long nannies and ended up shooting an 8.5" Billy. I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little disappointed in his size, there were larger billies to be had. I should have come back for another hunt. I would have eaten the tag before I shot a nanny, that's just good conservation. So is paid trophy hunting of elephants. Allowing a narrow scope of ivory importation promotes that.

Everyone wants more than what they got. I had a self-set goal of a 9” billy and wanted him to be older than 5. I ended up with a 9” billy that was 4.5 years old. I wish he had another year or 2 on him but it is what it is. They’re amazing animals and when we harvest one, we’ve all wholeheartedly earned every inch of them.
I have nothing against others shooting elephants. Or bears. In fact I would totally help you pack out your elephant tusks. I have a good pack. Just don’t want to shoot one myself.


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Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: KFhunter on November 19, 2017, 07:37:51 PM
nothing wrong with that  :tup:   


I wouldn't shoot one either, can't take it home and eat it and I don't need tusks sitting in a corner gathering dust.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: KFhunter on November 19, 2017, 07:43:03 PM
I know it would bring a pile of money in elephant impact areas though. 

To me elephants are a lot like wolves in WA, people in King CO have dictated that *I* in NE WA must live with wolves and I can't shoot them to keep them out of my place.  It's the same with those tribal people living with elephants destroying their crops, they aren't allowed to shoot them either.   

The US has dictated that those villagers should live with elephants killing their people and destroying their crops and keep wealthy Americans from spending wads of cash that would help out those villagers and *ironically* help out the elephants in areas where there aren't enough.

Title: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 19, 2017, 08:05:35 PM
Wealthy Americans can shoot elephants in Africa now, no?

I’m pretty positive my friend has an elephant shoulder mount in his trophy room. I know it’s a reconstruction or whatever you call it, but I know he killed one.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: KFhunter on November 19, 2017, 09:06:10 PM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Angry Perch on November 19, 2017, 09:11:10 PM
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Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of Elephants or any other animal.
3:57 PM - 19 Nov 2017
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Special T on November 20, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
This debate in indicitave of how westerners view Africa in general. The we know better mentality because they live in mud huts. Africa is rich in resources, and the animals are just as renewable as timber or the animals here in the USA.  Most of us recognise that if you want to save an animal you need sportsmen to support them. Hunting is part of that.

Unless I recieve some windfall I doubt I'd ever step foot on the continent to hunt.  I want hunting of all the animals in Africa because it will ensure thier survival.

If your personal preference it so hunt some particular animal I'm not sure any of us fellow hunters should care one way or another. Why? Because that is how Californians lost the ability to hunt cougar, and we lost the ability to trap and hunt with hounds.

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Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 20, 2017, 10:51:50 AM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Bob33 on November 20, 2017, 11:34:00 AM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
One $30k hunt supports a lot of villagers for a long time, in addition to the meat it provides. ;)
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on November 20, 2017, 11:49:20 AM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
One $30k hunt supports a lot of villagers for a long time, in addition to the meat it provides. ;)
I wonder how much of the money actually goes back to the village?  Presumably, trackers, skinners, spotters make a living wage-which is obviously important, but how many of the PHs and ranch/outfit owners are local?  This is an honest question.  I was having the conversation with someone about this subject and they asked... I have no idea and have not been there.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 20, 2017, 11:51:10 AM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

How many people who hunt have $50K to spend on an elephant?
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 20, 2017, 12:07:25 PM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
One $30k hunt supports a lot of villagers for a long time, in addition to the meat it provides. ;)

I won't disagree with that. I'm sure even if it makes for 1-2 more hunts, that's an improvement.

Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Bob33 on November 20, 2017, 01:09:58 PM

SCI Asks President Trump To Lift Hold On African Elephant Import Permits

Today Safari Club International President Paul Babaz sent a letter to President Trump, asking him to direct Secretary Ryan Zinke to lift the hold that he placed on the authorization of import permits for elephants legally hunted in Zimbabwe and Zambia.


In the letter, SCI addressed multiple reasons why the hold should be lifted and corrected many of the common misconceptions about hunting, conservation and the elephant populations in Zimbabwe and Zambia. The text of that letter to President Trump stated:

 

November 20, 2017

Dear Mr. President:

 

On behalf of the 50,000 members of Safari Club International, I respectfully ask you to direct Secretary Ryan Zinke to lift the hold that he placed on the authorization of import permits for elephants legally hunted in Zimbabwe and Zambia.  By supporting Secretary's Zinke's authorization of import permits, you can reverse the senseless acts perpetrated by the Obama administration against hunting and the sustainable use conservation of African wildlife.  The Obama Administration's refusal to authorize the importation of African elephants from countries, including Zimbabwe and Zambia, deprived those countries of resources they rely on to manage their wildlife, fight poaching and encourage community participation in conservation.  It is now time to put an end to the previous administration's prejudicial and unsupported bias against hunting as a tool in wildlife management and conservation.

Secretary Zinke and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have made crucial, scientifically supported determinations about hunting and the U.S. importation of African elephants from Zimbabwe and Zambia.  Not only did the Department of the Interior's wildlife and legal experts determine that the hunting and importation from these two countries will not hurt the African elephant species, they determined that the importation of legally hunted elephants from these two countries would "enhance the survival" of African elephants.  In short, they recognized, based on data they received from the wildlife management authorities of the two countries, the results of a species wide African elephant census, and the conclusions of the parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Fauna and Flora, that hunting and U.S. importation would help conserve African elephants.

Unfortunately, many people who oppose the importation of legally hunted elephants from Zimbabwe and Zambia incorrectly believe that a ban on importation will actually stop the killing of African elephants.  Let me assure you that a U.S. ban on importation will not stop the killing of elephants in Zimbabwe and Zambia.  Without the removal of elephants by U.S. hunters, others will find the need or the opportunity to kill those elephants, both for illegal and legal purposes.  Whether it is by poachers seeking to gain from the commercial value of the ivory, local residents attempting to remove a problem animal or hunters from other countries around the world taking advantage of bargain hunts not booked by U.S. hunters, elephants will continue to be removed from Zimbabwe and Zambia.

Most people who oppose hunting and importation of elephants are unaware of the role that hunting plays in fighting the greatest threat to elephant conservation—poaching.  Hunting concessions use money received from their clients to hire, feed and outfit anti-poaching patrols.  For example, few people know that it was a hunting business in Zimbabwe that discovered and helped apprehend the perpetrators of one of the most egregious poaching crimes in recent history --- the poisoning of over 100 elephants in Hwange National Park.  It was a hunting business that discovered the poisoned elephants and helped finance the effort, including the use of helicopter surveillance, that resulted in the apprehension of the poachers.  In another example, a hunting business in northern Zimbabwe established the Dande Anti-Poaching Unit (DAPU) in 2014.  DAPU's anti-poaching efforts have significantly reduced the number of illegal wildlife killings in the vicinity of the Dande Safari area.  These are just two examples of the hunting businesses who have been struggling to wage the battle against poaching, without the help of money from U.S. elephant hunters.  Without the influx of U.S. dollars to help support anti-poaching efforts, poachers will have an easier time of illegally killing elephants solely to sell the ivory for commercial gain.

Not all poaching is carried out by criminals who seek to make a profit from their ivory. Sometimes poaching – the illegal killing of an animal – is an act of necessity or frustration.  Local villages often find the need to kill elephants as to protect their livelihoods from the damages caused by elephants who roam into agricultural areas and trample crops and structures.  When elephants are not harvested by international hunters, those elephants often become the victims of retaliatory killings.  However, when elephants have significant value due to the jobs and revenue they generate for the community, local residents are far more likely to tolerate and help conserve the elephants in the vicinity – rather than kill them as nuisance animals.

Many of those opposed to U.S. importation of African elephants are unaware of the differences between hunting and poaching.  They assume that U.S. hunters care only about bringing home their "trophy."  This misconception fails to recognize an important distinction between poachers and those who spend thousands of dollars to engage in legal hunts authorized by the country management authority.  A poacher generally kills the elephant, removes the ivory to sell it and leaves the carcass to rot.  A hunter, with aid from his professional guide or outfitter, will generally donate all the meat from the elephant to help feed local villages and communities.  Hunters and the business they bring to countries like Zimbabwe and Zambia help provide jobs for local residents as guides, cooks, drivers, etc.  Hunters often also make personal contributions to anti-poaching units and help provide financial support for community projects like the building of wells, schools etc.

Another misconception held by those who oppose the importation of legally hunted African elephants is that "more is better."  They mistakenly assume that larger elephant populations in these countries would benefit species survival.  The truth is that, in wildlife conservation, more is not always better.  While it is true that, in some African countries, elephant populations are not as strong as they could be, that cannot be said for Zimbabwe and Zambia.  According to the recent "Great Elephant Census," Zimbabwe's country-wide elephant population was estimated to be 82,304.  Zambia's elephant population was 21,758.  While the census documented a 6% decline in Zimbabwe's elephant population since 2007, that decline did not necessarily reveal a problem for the country's elephants.  In fact, Zimbabwe's habitat cannot properly support a population of that number of elephants.  The country's carrying capacity is only 50,000 elephants, according to a recent statement from Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority's Director-General, Mr Filton Mangwanya.  Carrying capacity is the number of animals from a particular species that a region can support without environmental degradation.  Currently, Zimbabwe has an elephant population that is about 30,000 more than can be sustained by the country's food and habitat resources.  More elephants are simply not better for elephant survival if Zimbabwe lacks the necessary resources to maintain healthy populations at that level.

Anti-hunters also believe that the U.S. alone allows individuals to import legally hunted elephants.  That simply is not the case.  Not only does the European Union and its member countries authorize importation -- as do countries in Asia and South America -- but so does the Convention on the International Trade of Endangered Species of Fauna and Flora (CITES), an international treaty between more than 180 nations. CITES affirms the importation of elephants and acknowledges export quotas of elephants from both Zimbabwe and Zambia.  Economically speaking, other world countries are now benefitting from the U.S.'s failure to authorize elephant imports.  With the absence of U.S. hunters, who are often willing to pay top dollar for African elephant hunts, hunters from other countries are negotiating "bargain" excursions from African guides and outfitters who must replace lost U.S. business.  While the U.S. bans importation based on irrational and erroneous conservation principles, the rest of the world is getting a great deal at U.S. hunters' expense.

The hunting of elephants in Zimbabwe and Zambia enhances the survival of the African elephant species.  The Department of the Interior and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have carefully researched the facts, the science and the law and have concluded that the U.S. has had the necessary evidentiary support to authorize the importation of elephants from these two countries since early in 2016.  Hunters and conservationists have waited for many years for an importation decision that reflects the correct and verifiable facts about elephant importation and species conservation.  Safari Club International respectfully asks you to end the wait and to direct Secretary Zinke to begin issuing permits for the importation of these elephants, so that U.S. citizens can once again import the elephants that they legally hunt and actively participate in elephant conservation in Zimbabwe and Zambia.

Thank you.



 

Paul Babaz

President, Safari Club International

Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: KFhunter on November 20, 2017, 01:14:03 PM
Thanks for posting that, excellent letter and I'm sold on it 100%


If someone has deep enough pockets I'm all for it
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: floatinghat on November 20, 2017, 01:54:55 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Being capable of expressing the rationale for an opinion, and choosing to voluntarily do so are two differnt things. I thought most people would understand that. I stand corrected.
My mistake thinking people posting on a discussion forum would want to discuss. I stand corrected.


Sounds to me like you were one of those kids, it's my ball and I'll go home if you don't play by my rules.  People can another perspective than yours and not be wrong.     


Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 20, 2017, 05:46:19 PM
Great letter. I hope he learns from it, and doesn't bow to the oppositions political pressure.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 21, 2017, 05:17:22 AM

SCI Asks President Trump To Lift Hold On African Elephant Import Permits

Today Safari Club International President Paul Babaz sent a letter to President Trump, asking him to direct Secretary Ryan Zinke to lift the hold that he placed on the authorization of import permits for elephants legally hunted in Zimbabwe and Zambia.


In the letter, SCI addressed multiple reasons why the hold should be lifted and corrected many of the common misconceptions about hunting, conservation and the elephant populations in Zimbabwe and Zambia. The text of that letter to President Trump stated:

 

November 20, 2017

Dear Mr. President:

 

On behalf of the 50,000 members of Safari Club International, I respectfully ask you to direct Secretary Ryan Zinke to lift the hold that he placed on the authorization of import permits for elephants legally hunted in Zimbabwe and Zambia.  By supporting Secretary's Zinke's authorization of import permits, you can reverse the senseless acts perpetrated by the Obama administration against hunting and the sustainable use conservation of African wildlife.  The Obama Administration's refusal to authorize the importation of African elephants from countries, including Zimbabwe and Zambia, deprived those countries of resources they rely on to manage their wildlife, fight poaching and encourage community participation in conservation.  It is now time to put an end to the previous administration's prejudicial and unsupported bias against hunting as a tool in wildlife management and conservation.

Secretary Zinke and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have made crucial, scientifically supported determinations about hunting and the U.S. importation of African elephants from Zimbabwe and Zambia.  Not only did the Department of the Interior's wildlife and legal experts determine that the hunting and importation from these two countries will not hurt the African elephant species, they determined that the importation of legally hunted elephants from these two countries would "enhance the survival" of African elephants.  In short, they recognized, based on data they received from the wildlife management authorities of the two countries, the results of a species wide African elephant census, and the conclusions of the parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Fauna and Flora, that hunting and U.S. importation would help conserve African elephants.

Unfortunately, many people who oppose the importation of legally hunted elephants from Zimbabwe and Zambia incorrectly believe that a ban on importation will actually stop the killing of African elephants.  Let me assure you that a U.S. ban on importation will not stop the killing of elephants in Zimbabwe and Zambia.  Without the removal of elephants by U.S. hunters, others will find the need or the opportunity to kill those elephants, both for illegal and legal purposes.  Whether it is by poachers seeking to gain from the commercial value of the ivory, local residents attempting to remove a problem animal or hunters from other countries around the world taking advantage of bargain hunts not booked by U.S. hunters, elephants will continue to be removed from Zimbabwe and Zambia.

Most people who oppose hunting and importation of elephants are unaware of the role that hunting plays in fighting the greatest threat to elephant conservation—poaching.  Hunting concessions use money received from their clients to hire, feed and outfit anti-poaching patrols.  For example, few people know that it was a hunting business in Zimbabwe that discovered and helped apprehend the perpetrators of one of the most egregious poaching crimes in recent history --- the poisoning of over 100 elephants in Hwange National Park.  It was a hunting business that discovered the poisoned elephants and helped finance the effort, including the use of helicopter surveillance, that resulted in the apprehension of the poachers.  In another example, a hunting business in northern Zimbabwe established the Dande Anti-Poaching Unit (DAPU) in 2014.  DAPU's anti-poaching efforts have significantly reduced the number of illegal wildlife killings in the vicinity of the Dande Safari area.  These are just two examples of the hunting businesses who have been struggling to wage the battle against poaching, without the help of money from U.S. elephant hunters.  Without the influx of U.S. dollars to help support anti-poaching efforts, poachers will have an easier time of illegally killing elephants solely to sell the ivory for commercial gain.

Not all poaching is carried out by criminals who seek to make a profit from their ivory. Sometimes poaching – the illegal killing of an animal – is an act of necessity or frustration.  Local villages often find the need to kill elephants as to protect their livelihoods from the damages caused by elephants who roam into agricultural areas and trample crops and structures.  When elephants are not harvested by international hunters, those elephants often become the victims of retaliatory killings.  However, when elephants have significant value due to the jobs and revenue they generate for the community, local residents are far more likely to tolerate and help conserve the elephants in the vicinity – rather than kill them as nuisance animals.

Many of those opposed to U.S. importation of African elephants are unaware of the differences between hunting and poaching.  They assume that U.S. hunters care only about bringing home their "trophy."  This misconception fails to recognize an important distinction between poachers and those who spend thousands of dollars to engage in legal hunts authorized by the country management authority.  A poacher generally kills the elephant, removes the ivory to sell it and leaves the carcass to rot.  A hunter, with aid from his professional guide or outfitter, will generally donate all the meat from the elephant to help feed local villages and communities.  Hunters and the business they bring to countries like Zimbabwe and Zambia help provide jobs for local residents as guides, cooks, drivers, etc.  Hunters often also make personal contributions to anti-poaching units and help provide financial support for community projects like the building of wells, schools etc.

Another misconception held by those who oppose the importation of legally hunted African elephants is that "more is better."  They mistakenly assume that larger elephant populations in these countries would benefit species survival.  The truth is that, in wildlife conservation, more is not always better.  While it is true that, in some African countries, elephant populations are not as strong as they could be, that cannot be said for Zimbabwe and Zambia.  According to the recent "Great Elephant Census," Zimbabwe's country-wide elephant population was estimated to be 82,304.  Zambia's elephant population was 21,758.  While the census documented a 6% decline in Zimbabwe's elephant population since 2007, that decline did not necessarily reveal a problem for the country's elephants.  In fact, Zimbabwe's habitat cannot properly support a population of that number of elephants.  The country's carrying capacity is only 50,000 elephants, according to a recent statement from Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority's Director-General, Mr Filton Mangwanya.  Carrying capacity is the number of animals from a particular species that a region can support without environmental degradation.  Currently, Zimbabwe has an elephant population that is about 30,000 more than can be sustained by the country's food and habitat resources.  More elephants are simply not better for elephant survival if Zimbabwe lacks the necessary resources to maintain healthy populations at that level.

Anti-hunters also believe that the U.S. alone allows individuals to import legally hunted elephants.  That simply is not the case.  Not only does the European Union and its member countries authorize importation -- as do countries in Asia and South America -- but so does the Convention on the International Trade of Endangered Species of Fauna and Flora (CITES), an international treaty between more than 180 nations. CITES affirms the importation of elephants and acknowledges export quotas of elephants from both Zimbabwe and Zambia.  Economically speaking, other world countries are now benefitting from the U.S.'s failure to authorize elephant imports.  With the absence of U.S. hunters, who are often willing to pay top dollar for African elephant hunts, hunters from other countries are negotiating "bargain" excursions from African guides and outfitters who must replace lost U.S. business.  While the U.S. bans importation based on irrational and erroneous conservation principles, the rest of the world is getting a great deal at U.S. hunters' expense.

The hunting of elephants in Zimbabwe and Zambia enhances the survival of the African elephant species.  The Department of the Interior and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have carefully researched the facts, the science and the law and have concluded that the U.S. has had the necessary evidentiary support to authorize the importation of elephants from these two countries since early in 2016.  Hunters and conservationists have waited for many years for an importation decision that reflects the correct and verifiable facts about elephant importation and species conservation.  Safari Club International respectfully asks you to end the wait and to direct Secretary Zinke to begin issuing permits for the importation of these elephants, so that U.S. citizens can once again import the elephants that they legally hunt and actively participate in elephant conservation in Zimbabwe and Zambia.

Thank you.



 

Paul Babaz

President, Safari Club International



Bob33 thanks for posting the letter, that letter said much more plainly and with greater understanding what I was trying to say in my earlier post. In short hunting dollars support the management of elephants and ensure their future existence.

I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

I'm delighted to have the opportunity to clear up a few of your misconceptions regarding licensed trophy hunting in Africa. So, these countries are poor. Take the southern white rhino. In 1960, there were 800 left. Today, there are over 20K living in the wild. Their recovery is due almost completely to breeding programs, habitat improvement, and anti-poaching patrols paid for with trophy hunting dollars. Look it up. The Northern white rhino hasn't been legally hunted for 40 years and faces extinction within 5 years. They can't afford the anti-poaching patrols necessary to protect them. Their habitat has been ruined by poverty, farming, and war. The success of the southern rhino is true of more than a dozen species across Africa. You seriously need to learn about conservation and how licensed hunting saves species if you're going to be a representative of our hunting culture. This is the tip of the iceberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_white_rhinoceros

Thanks pianoman, this is a perfect example of how hunting has helped support healthy populations of one specie and the lack of hunting dollars has allowed an almost identical specie to be wiped out by poaching. Everyone should read about how hunting has benefited white rhino's and the lack of hunting has resulted in the lack of management for black rhino's and their ultimate demise.  :tup:
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 21, 2017, 05:26:18 AM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
One $30k hunt supports a lot of villagers for a long time, in addition to the meat it provides. ;)
I wonder how much of the money actually goes back to the village?  Presumably, trackers, skinners, spotters make a living wage-which is obviously important, but how many of the PHs and ranch/outfit owners are local?  This is an honest question.  I was having the conversation with someone about this subject and they asked... I have no idea and have not been there.

No doubt PH's and government agencies pocket a good portion of the dollars spent. But the economy created by visiting hunters who spend dollars at businesses, tip trackers, the dollars spent by PH's to support their operations in local areas all has a trickle down effect into local economies, and the donation of meat goes directly to local people. To put it in context that most people should understand, if deer hunting was stopped in eastern WA that would have a significant impact on every business in small rural towns. Most businesses benefit from the hunters who spend dollars in these small towns either directly or indirectly. When salmon fishing or steelhead fishing is closed what does that do to coastal towns?
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on November 21, 2017, 05:01:30 PM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
One $30k hunt supports a lot of villagers for a long time, in addition to the meat it provides. ;)
I wonder how much of the money actually goes back to the village?  Presumably, trackers, skinners, spotters make a living wage-which is obviously important, but how many of the PHs and ranch/outfit owners are local?  This is an honest question.  I was having the conversation with someone about this subject and they asked... I have no idea and have not been there.

No doubt PH's and government agencies pocket a good portion of the dollars spent. But the economy created by visiting hunters who spend dollars at businesses, tip trackers, the dollars spent by PH's to support their operations in local areas all has a trickle down effect into local economies, and the donation of meat goes directly to local people. To put it in context that most people should understand, if deer hunting was stopped in eastern WA that would have a significant impact on every business in small rural towns. Most businesses benefit from the hunters who spend dollars in these small towns either directly or indirectly. When salmon fishing or steelhead fishing is closed what does that do to coastal towns?

Just for the sake of argument................ This could also be looked at as rich outsiders taking away from the people who live there and putting the locals on welfare.  Why should the only hunting be by rich people who don't live there? If there are surplus animals, why not let the locals hunt their own meat instead of relying on outsiders?  Why should the people who live there be reduced to beggars?  To use your example of what happens to coastal towns when fishing is shut down...... How do you think the people in those coastal towns would feel about salmon fishing being shut down and having hatcheries putting out fish to increase the run, but only rich foreigners could afford to actually fish for them? You think they'd be happy that those foreigners dropped a few fish off because the foreigners wanted nothing to do with eating them?  You think the locals would have any interest in conserving fish that they aren't allowed toi catch themselves? I can tell you, this practice goes on in Alaska with big game. It's a legal loophole trophy hunters use to get around the strict wastage laws in Alaska. But you hear lots of stories from the villages where a lot of the meat is just dumped and poorly taken care of. A lot of it goes to waste. The local villagers would rather get their own meat and who can blame them?  More and more  hunts are tuning into local residents only hunts. And hunting groups that represent trophy hunters don't like it.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 21, 2017, 06:11:13 PM
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, she’d come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

I’m not interested in killing one. That’s my level of non-interest. 100%. You keep posting asking folks to “quantify their reason”. Nobody needs to quantify anything. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. I’ve never killed a bear either. Have little to no interest in it. Why? Just cuz. Reason enough for me.


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So your saying you actually don't have an open mind, when it comes to this subject. In an effort to spur intelligent debate I have asked two posters in this thread to give the reasoning behind their opinions, or statements. I thought you were capable of that. I stand corrected.
Being capable of expressing the rationale for an opinion, and choosing to voluntarily do so are two differnt things. I thought most people would understand that. I stand corrected.
My mistake thinking people posting on a discussion forum would want to discuss. I stand corrected.


Sounds to me like you were one of those kids, it's my ball and I'll go home if you don't play by my rules.  People can another perspective than yours and not be wrong.   

I will ask you a question also. How is my asking a question of a poster, or requesting an explanation for the rational behind their statement, considered unreasonable?

ETA: Seems to me that coming here and making a definitive statement, then being unwilling to discuss or explain it is the definition of taking your ball and going home.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Britt-dog on November 21, 2017, 06:23:34 PM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
One $30k hunt supports a lot of villagers for a long time, in addition to the meat it provides. ;)
I wonder how much of the money actually goes back to the village?  Presumably, trackers, skinners, spotters make a living wage-which is obviously important, but how many of the PHs and ranch/outfit owners are local?  This is an honest question.  I was having the conversation with someone about this subject and they asked... I have no idea and have not been there.

No doubt PH's and government agencies pocket a good portion of the dollars spent. But the economy created by visiting hunters who spend dollars at businesses, tip trackers, the dollars spent by PH's to support their operations in local areas all has a trickle down effect into local economies, and the donation of meat goes directly to local people. To put it in context that most people should understand, if deer hunting was stopped in eastern WA that would have a significant impact on every business in small rural towns. Most businesses benefit from the hunters who spend dollars in these small towns either directly or indirectly. When salmon fishing or steelhead fishing is closed what does that do to coastal towns?

Good analogy. I am sure that the distribution of the moneys involved doesn't seem equitable to many outsiders, it is still very beneficial to the community as a whole, and ultimately the Elephants
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 21, 2017, 06:32:33 PM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
I don't know if it will or not, but then I think of all the governor's tags, auction tags and raffle tags throughout the western US....doesn't seem like there's a shortage of guys spending between $50-100K (?) for elk, mule deer, bighorns, dall sheep, etc.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: bearpaw on November 21, 2017, 07:37:42 PM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
I don't know if it will or not, but then I think of all the governor's tags, auction tags and raffle tags throughout the western US....doesn't seem like there's a shortage of guys spending between $50-100K (?) for elk, mule deer, bighorns, dall sheep, etc.

Here's another bit of info about elephant hunting. When there are bad elephants that habitually destroy croplands the government allows them to be killed, just like ranchers are allowed to kill a wolf that kills cattle or the farmer who kills wildlife that destroy his crops in this country. You can have your name added to a list of hunters willing to come on a moments notice to dispatch a marauding elephant, sometimes its cows, sometimes young bulls, but it's relatively affordable. I always figured that might be one way I could afford to shoot an elephant, yes I want to hunt an elephant. Instead of the animal just being killed by local enforcement with no benefit to wildlife management, a hunter will put dollars into wildlife management via the license needed, and money into the local economy. With a ban in place American hunters are probably not participating in this program anymore.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: jackelope on November 21, 2017, 08:32:24 PM
If Americans could bring back real trophies wouldn't you think there would be more hunting them?  I think nothing but a picture and cheap replica of a real trophy keeps would be hunters away.  I didn't mean that it's illegal.

At $30-50k a hunt, I doubt you'll see a big rise in the number of elephant hunts.
I don't know if it will or not, but then I think of all the governor's tags, auction tags and raffle tags throughout the western US....doesn't seem like there's a shortage of guys spending between $50-100K (?) for elk, mule deer, bighorns, dall sheep, etc.
I think deer and elk are different here in the US. There’s a wider appeal. And there are a few of these hunts that sell in the $250-400k range every year. Crazy talk.


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Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Bob33 on November 21, 2017, 08:51:57 PM
A ban is not good for hunters, it's not good for local villages, and it's not good for elephants.
Title: Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
Post by: Bookworm007 on November 30, 2017, 08:34:14 PM
While I do believe in well regulated hunting as an effective conservation tool I don't believe that is what is present in Africa. 98% of the tourist economy in Africa is tourists going to see the wildlife not to hunt and of that 2% very little of the money goes to the local villages. It is mostly paid to large businesses and government agencies who may or may not hire locals.

But realistically I don't think that hunting will cause or save elephants from extinction, poaching and loss of habitat are the big killers of the African elephant and will have to be addressed if these animals are going to survive. I hope that those who seem to want elephant hunting to continue will do more to make it beneficial for the elephants since the status quo does not seem to be effectively managing elephant populations.

I think you are wrong, they seem to be pretty effectively managed in areas that allow hunting as populations have shown stability and even increases. It is in the areas with no legal hunting that poaching is rampant and the populations are being decimated.
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