Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 07:15:15 PM

Title: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
At Clover Springs.  Man thatís frustrating.  Oh well.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on December 30, 2017, 07:20:36 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns and elk up in the Wenas and numbers are way down.I think issued cow tags up in 342 and 340 are down almost 80 per cent this past year.

last week saw a cow elk dead next too road. I guess too much work to drag it down to your steel horse i mean truck

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 07:20:47 PM
They (USFS and WDFW) are working on getting a closure order surrounding the feed site to make all public entry illegal surrounding the feeding station. Hasn't been signed yet as far as I know.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 07:31:27 PM
Thatís basically how they shut down the killing at oak creek.   Itís too bad though.  Great place for kids to enjoy wildlife.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 07:36:03 PM
Thatís basically how they shut down the killing at oak creek.   Itís too bad though.  Great place for kids to enjoy wildlife.


It would only be south of the road for a bit so they wouldn't be able to shoot elk off the alfalfa is how I under stand it. Could be more area,but that is what I know. Wish they'd gate it right where Matson's property ends, but the public would be pissed.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 30, 2017, 07:59:19 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it! 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: h20hunter on December 30, 2017, 08:04:15 PM
Sounds like more slaughtering than hunting.  Being done at a feed station/area? Deplorable whomever is involved.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 08:09:43 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

I couldnít tell you who did it.  Not sure I know anyone ballsey enough to pull it off other than someone who can legally do it.

Though I canít believe anyone is that worthless to shoot an animal at a feeding station
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 30, 2017, 08:09:56 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

Apparently for some reason you can't call a spade a spade on the net or it's "native bashing" or "hate speech"
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: mfswallace on December 30, 2017, 08:11:21 PM
Any pics?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 08:12:49 PM
There was a silver dodge with native plates that drove the same route every morning early December. Always went by when I was out chukar hunting.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
Any pics?
I do but they were taken by a young gal and her name is on the screen (screen shot).
I donít feel like processing them.
Quite frankly, why bother.  People say put it in the press.  Why?  Political pressure? Ya, I donít think so.  Send em to the WDFW. Iím sure they know. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 30, 2017, 08:22:27 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

Apparently for some reason you can't call a spade a spade on the net or it's "native bashing" or "hate speech"
exactly, thatís what pisses me off the most.  Itís not hate, itís the damn truth!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on December 30, 2017, 09:04:49 PM
Wow.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:06:15 PM
We can talk about tribal issues on Hunting Washington, these are the rules for doing so:

Tribal hunting and fishing accounts for a substantial percentage of the hunting and fishing that occurs in Washington and many other states. There is a great deal of controversy and hard feelings regarding what percentage of the resources each side thinks they should receive. The fact is that the agencies and courts decide these percentages. Hunters and fishers on either side of the issue understandably hunt and fish as much as they are allowed by the agencies and courts which are in control. The individual hunters and fishers don't determine who gets what percentage so it makes little sense to blame each other for the decisions made by the courts and agencies.

Because these are hunting and fishing issues discussion should be allowed on a hunting and outdoors forum, but any trash talk or instigating from either side of the conversation will no longer be allowed. If you comment in a tribal topic you must follow the same rules as all other topics or face the consequences. Members on both side of the issue deserve equal respect!



That said, Bone doesn't know who shot the Elk.  It could have been legal which would make it tribal OR it could have been illegal.   Until we know, let's not point fingers.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on December 30, 2017, 09:08:30 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:10:30 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:

I edited my post, I read ribka's 1st reply and started thinking about deer - mybad
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 09:11:32 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unless it is in his own yard.

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on December 30, 2017, 09:12:52 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:

I edited my post, I read ribka's 1st reply and started thinking about deer - mybad
:tup:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on December 30, 2017, 09:14:02 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:

I edited my post, I read ribka's 1st reply and started thinking about deer - mybad

do you want me to delete posts? Do folks living over 200 miles away know what is happening where we live every day? :dunno:

sorry to report what is occurring in wintering grounds of deer and elk :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:14:41 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unlese it is in his own yard.

I don't disagree, it probably was tribal but we don't know for sure
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: mfswallace on December 30, 2017, 09:15:22 PM
Any pics?
I do but they were taken by a young gal and her name is on the screen (screen shot).
I donít feel like processing them.
Quite frankly, why bother.  People say put it in the press.  Why?  Political pressure? Ya, I donít think so.  Send em to the WDFW. Iím sure they know.

U probably know better than most but--
You know her name could be edited out. If the blatant abuses of a dwindling resource are exposed as much as possible, maybe, just maybe, action will be taken to stop the inequity and changes will occur to bring all people to the same page in regards to resource management...

In this case, is huntings enemy(enviro/greenies) an adversary  that could help stop the native slaughters  :dunno:
probably blasphemous to even think but so goes the mind when in such dire straights
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:15:56 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:

I edited my post, I read ribka's 1st reply and started thinking about deer - mybad

do you want me to delete posts?

sorry to report what is occurring in wintering grounds of deer and elk :dunno:

why?  You didn't do anything wrong, deer are getting hammered too. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on December 30, 2017, 09:17:21 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unlese it is in his own yard.

I don't disagree, it probably was tribal but we don't know for sure

not super smart but the Yak plates are kind of a clue but again i am not very bright :dunno:

Every year i make calls to lock gates so the animals cannot be molested when most stressed

never changes

mods feel free to delete my posts
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 09:22:19 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unlese it is in his own yard.

I don't disagree, it probably was tribal but we don't know for sure

not super smart but the Yak plates are kind of a clue but again i am not very bright :dunno:

I know a guy whose been seeing tons of Yakamas up there and he lives right on that road. Pretty good evidence, eh?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 09:24:12 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unlese it is in his own yard.

I don't disagree, it probably was tribal but we don't know for sure

not super smart but the Yak plates are kind of a clue but again i am not very bright :dunno:

Every year i make calls to lock gates so the animals cannot be molested when most stressed

never changes

mods feel free to delete my posts

We all know what happens here. A bloodbath. Every year. You should put a decoy out and see if an Indian stops and takes a serious look at it.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 30, 2017, 09:26:28 PM
We need pics, otherwise itís all heresay. But I believe we all know whatís going on! 😡
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on December 30, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Any pics?
I do but they were taken by a young gal and her name is on the screen (screen shot).
I donít feel like processing them.
Quite frankly, why bother.  People say put it in the press.  Why?  Political pressure? Ya, I donít think so.  Send em to the WDFW. Iím sure they know.

U probably know better than most but--
You know her name could be edited out. If the blatant abuses of a dwindling resource are exposed as much as possible, maybe, just maybe, action will be taken to stop the inequity and changes will occur to bring all people to the same page in regards to resource management...

In this case, is huntings enemy(enviro/greenies) an adversary  that could help stop the native slaughters  :dunno:
probably blasphemous to even think but so goes the mind when in such dire straights

Would never happen, too hard a target! 

Too much money, too much political and legal protection, instead, they like going after soft targets they can split and get in-fighting going, you know...hunters!!

Much easier to get what they want that way...

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:32:05 PM
Every year its the same. 


I used to advocate for feeding stations here, but HW changed my mind  :bash:        I'd loose my junk if I seen that here, on top of the wolves, a feeding station would just be a slaughter fest over here.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 31, 2017, 11:37:22 AM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 31, 2017, 03:56:25 PM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on December 31, 2017, 04:00:27 PM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:

 :yeah:   I think that might be the only way to get the natives to work with us in the conservation of our state's deer and elk.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 31, 2017, 04:05:42 PM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:

 :yeah:   I think that might be the only way to get the natives to work with us in the conservation of our state's deer and elk.
YES, Iíve been saying this for years!  Open it up state wide, same rules as the tribe has in those units, including fishing!  It will wipe out our herds and fish but will finnaly force the natives to the bargaining table!  Itís a great idea!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 31, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
In the last native bashing thread I posted that we should turn management of fish and game to the tribes that have hunting rights in certain ceded areas, since we can't manage them let them manage us. 

We would buy a tribal hunting license for those tribal managed ceded areas and since the treaties say "in common with" then all the bag limits, all the rules, would be the same for us white folk and for Indian folk.   We would all be Indians in essence, in ceded areas. 



Of course to hunt on the reservation a person would still need a tribal ID card for that reservation.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 31, 2017, 04:16:11 PM
In the last native bashing thread I posted that we should turn management of fish and game to the tribes that have hunting rights in certain ceded areas, since we can't manage them let them manage us. 

We would buy a tribal hunting license for those tribal managed ceded areas and since the treaties say "in common with" then all the bag limits, all the rules, would be the same for us white folk and for Indian folk.   We would all be Indians in essence, in ceded areas. 



Of course to hunt on the reservation a person would still need a tribal ID card for that reservation.
The cases where it is already in play are actually quite a bit better than any of the shared areas.  A couple rivers on the westside and a bear hunting area.  The fishing areas have tons more fish, but they also get limited to the amount of people that can show up.  The bear hunting spot you can hunt over bait.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bearpaw on December 31, 2017, 04:28:56 PM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:

 :yeah:   I think that might be the only way to get the natives to work with us in the conservation of our state's deer and elk.

 :yeah: Equal Seasons, Equal Bag Limits! That's the most fair statement I think I have ever heard regarding how to deal with the current situation. All parties would have equal opportunity! All parties would have to come together to save the resources!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 31, 2017, 05:45:40 PM

"in common with"


Thatís the huge part missed in most of this
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Tbar on December 31, 2017, 05:51:43 PM

"in common with"


Thatís the huge part missed in most of this
In legal terms that part meant 50% of the resource when it was litigated. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Tbar on December 31, 2017, 06:13:08 PM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:

 :yeah:   I think that might be the only way to get the natives to work with us in the conservation of our state's deer and elk.

 :yeah: Equal Seasons, Equal Bag Limits! That's the most fair statement I think I have ever heard regarding how to deal with the current situation. All parties would have equal opportunity! All parties would have to come together to save the resources!
The biggest threat to the resources is not tribes, its the wdfw leadership and direction.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 31, 2017, 10:34:12 PM
There's an Indian stuck somewhere off of the 1701/1712 with one cow killed. I know I'm not going up those icy roads.

He's asking for help on a few Facebook pages :chuckle:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jimmer on December 31, 2017, 11:47:57 PM
There's an Indian stuck somewhere off of the 1701/1712 with one cow killed. I know I'm not going up those icy roads.

He's asking for help on a few Facebook pages :chuckle:
That's too bad....
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 31, 2017, 11:59:06 PM

"in common with"


Thatís the huge part missed in most of this
In legal terms that part meant 50% of the resource when it was litigated.
thats your interpretation , did you get my lump of coal in your stocking?  In common with means exactly what it says, doesnít take a genius to figure that part out.  Now if I got to hunt under their rules, I might feel diferently, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2018, 12:00:44 AM
I hope he gets help.

A difference of opinion is one thing;   his safety is a totally different matter. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on January 01, 2018, 12:06:24 AM
I hope he gets help.

A difference of opinion is one thing;   his safety is a totally different matter.

Not worth putting other people in harm over a stupid decision to go on icy roads. Sounds like family members are going up to try to get him.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 01, 2018, 09:24:50 AM

"in common with"


Thatís the huge part missed in most of this
In legal terms that part meant 50% of the resource when it was litigated.
thats your interpretation , did you get my lump of coal in your stocking?  In common with means exactly what it says, doesnít take a genius to figure that part out.  Now if I got to hunt under their rules, I might feel diferently, but I doubt it.
Well, in this day and age you shouldn't be too surprised about interpretations.  Think about all the confusion caused by 'Shall not be infringed'.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 01, 2018, 10:39:59 AM
I hope he gets help.

A difference of opinion is one thing;   his safety is a totally different matter.

Not worth putting other people in harm over a stupid decision to go on icy roads. Sounds like family members are going up to try to get him.

I saw your original unedited statement prior to 11:31pm, hoping the guy doesn't get rescued that no one goes up there for him, and I debated doing something about it but decided to let your comments speak for themselves. 

 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bearpaw on January 01, 2018, 10:50:28 AM
If I was closer I would go help the guy. He was hunting a season that is open for him to hunt, he is no different than any other hunter going out when the season is open.  :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on January 01, 2018, 11:07:25 AM

"in common with"


Thatís the huge part missed in most of this

 :tup:

Ive helped Yaks in the past get out cow elk in the Wenas so most of us aren't just bashing them for the sake of bashing.Its about our shared resources. That was almost 10 years ago. Now cow tags are down I think about 80 per cent up in 342 340 in 2017 and deer numbers are way down so am not so apt to help out. And more and more wolves are coming into the stressed Yakima herd

No problem helping someone stuck get out. That is an unwritten rule up in the mountains. No doubt naches would stop to help someone

I had some issues in the past when wdfw was allowing muckleshoots to hunt elk up in the Nile during late archery. It was a schit show. The mucks were jumping of trucks and shooting down in the canyons at groups of running elk and there were bow hunters  was one of them)  hunting down in those same canyons. The mucks knew this and were purposefully doing this endangering hunters. I was was one of them and heard bullets flying past me.I hiked out and called YSO to stop it. The mucks were just laughing.

so much for working together. I dont think the Yakamas would ever do this



Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JM on January 01, 2018, 11:42:08 AM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unless it is in his own yard.

You guys do know that it's not just white people that hunt public ground.

I'm white, but it makes this thread sound kind of ignorant when I keep reading about white people vs natives.

I don't know why you need to see pictures? We've all seen dead deer and elk and we all know that this goes on, the real unfortunate thing is that we live next to one of the greediest tribes in the state if not country and they do whatever they want whenever they want and don't give any thought to where the majority of the funding for these resources is coming from. The Yakamas have done a lot for the salmon and steelhead, but they are raping and pillaging our deer and elk herds without a second thought.

I know of a guy that was in a meeting with the Yakamas about the Muckleshoot tribe coming over the pass and hunting. In that meeting one of the Yakama elders told the whole meeting that the Yaks will have to shoot every deer and elk so that the Muckleshoots won't come over and hunt their ceded land. That kind of sums up the thought process that goes on over there. I'm not saying that all of them are like this, but the ones that are have branded natives with a horrible reputation in most of the outdoor communities
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 01, 2018, 12:04:59 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unless it is in his own yard.

You guys do know that it's not just white people that hunt public ground.

I'm white, but it makes this thread sound kind of ignorant when I keep reading about white people vs natives.

I don't know why you need to see pictures? We've all seen dead deer and elk and we all know that this goes on, the real unfortunate thing is that we live next to one of the greediest tribes in the state if not country and they do whatever they want whenever they want and don't give any thought to where the majority of the funding for these resources is coming from. The Yakamas have done a lot for the salmon and steelhead, but they are raping and pillaging our deer and elk herds without a second thought.

I know of a guy that was in a meeting with the Yakamas about the Muckleshoot tribe coming over the pass and hunting. In that meeting one of the Yakama elders told the whole meeting that the Yaks will have to shoot every deer and elk so that the Muckleshoots won't come over and hunt their ceded land. That kind of sums up the thought process that goes on over there. I'm not saying that all of them are like this, but the ones that are have branded natives with a horrible reputation in most of the outdoor communities
sounds like at least one of the elders has the same idea as a couple of us on here, open the season up to all, kill everything so they have to deal with us.  Interesting!  And a great idea!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Green broke on January 01, 2018, 08:07:10 PM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
If you want to paint hunting in a poor light with your media blitz, expect reciprocation. It would not be a tall task to video and document some bad behavior during the state season.  Think for a second about demographics and the state where we live.  I'm sure all the bleeding hearts you want to contact would love to see non true spikes left to rot and your WDFW would love to hang sportsman out to dry and pile it on.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 01, 2018, 08:19:00 PM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
If you want to paint hunting in a poor light with your media blitz, expect reciprocation. It would not be a tall task to video and document some bad behavior during the state season.  Think for a second about demographics and the state where we live.  I'm sure all the bleeding hearts you want to contact would love to see non true spikes left to rot and your WDFW would love to hang sportsman out to dry and pile it on.
trust me, we would be on the same side if you had a chance to video non natives poaching. When ever there are non natives caught poaching itís all over this forum, which is good.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Green broke on January 01, 2018, 08:25:22 PM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
If you want to paint hunting in a poor light with your media blitz, expect reciprocation. It would not be a tall task to video and document some bad behavior during the state season.  Think for a second about demographics and the state where we live.  I'm sure all the bleeding hearts you want to contact would love to see non true spikes left to rot and your WDFW would love to hang sportsman out to dry and pile it on.
trust me, we would be on the same side if you had a chance to video non natives poaching. When ever there are non natives caught poaching itís all over this forum, which is good.
TheYakamas are legally hunting, not poaching. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: h20hunter on January 01, 2018, 08:31:12 PM
Slaughtering. Not hunting.  Fish in a barrel.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2018, 09:07:42 PM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
If you want to paint hunting in a poor light with your media blitz, expect reciprocation. It would not be a tall task to video and document some bad behavior during the state season.  Think for a second about demographics and the state where we live.  I'm sure all the bleeding hearts you want to contact would love to see non true spikes left to rot and your WDFW would love to hang sportsman out to dry and pile it on.
trust me, we would be on the same side if you had a chance to video non natives poaching. When ever there are non natives caught poaching itís all over this forum, which is good.
TheYakamas are legally hunting, not poaching.

Green Broke is right.

People don't need to like it, but there is a world of difference between poaching and hunting a legal season. 

Heck, I don't like that some White people own thousands of acres and get to hunt their own private dream land (and get depredation permits for over the Winter) but that doesn't make it poaching.   They were just born with a different birthright than me.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cryder on January 02, 2018, 06:10:22 AM
Say it AGAIN ! HUH ? OH ! O K ! One day we will all end up on the same and last legal trail left to hunt , we will all cross paths and realize it is over as we liked it , and will realize it's time to turn the page . Turn  ( your ) missle launchers , muzzies , crime guns , and bows into just plinking toys , man was never meant to be meat eaters anyways so we will then be victims of fish n feathers and full circle reality the more I get out there the more ahead of the inevitable knee buckling bender curve ball that we all no is comeing , the count is 3 n 2 and it's time to give it your best swing , before the clown we elected finds a profitable motion to take it away 🤣😂😂😂  j ( just kiddn ? ) Don't wanna light any fires , well at the risk of repeating myself again I'll stop thinking , anyways , everybody , welcome back from the sindacated financial season , and until the next walk of shame to the tag counter , Happy Easter ? Or is that the stride of pride ? U decide 😂😂🤡🤡
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 02, 2018, 06:35:51 AM
Same issue every year. Unless something is done about it they are going to evoke "Their Right". It's just sad that they feel the need to do it in such a defenseless area.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: MarkTrail on January 02, 2018, 07:02:07 AM
Dan-o, your comparison to large private landowners is a joke right? Birthright? Wow, as a landowner with "special rules" I am allowed one deer with regular state tag and another with my special depredation kill permit. With that privilege I have to pay property, sales, income tax etc.
   You people who do not live in the general areas will never understand. I can assure you that the Washington sportsman is not harvesting 50% of the branch bulls. The "natives" are killing way more than we legally harvest. The huge reduction in cow tags was certainly not in response to winter kill. I hike our mountains way more than the average person and I found very few winter kills. Get your heads out of the sand people this a bad situation getting worst.
   I could and do rant forever but I will leave you intelligent supporters with one thought. How many deer, elk are the tribes killing? I will answer for you, don't know! They have no accountability towards management. Zero reporting or limits. Just consider it unlimited gov tags everyday.
   Legal poaching! That's what it is...
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 07:13:51 AM
Dan-o, your comparison to large private landowners is a joke right? Birthright? Wow, as a landowner with "special rules" I am allowed one deer with regular state tag and another with my special depredation kill permit. With that privilege I have to pay property, sales, income tax etc.
   You people who do not live in the general areas will never understand. I can assure you that the Washington sportsman is not harvesting 50% of the branch bulls. The "natives" are killing way more than we legally harvest. The huge reduction in cow tags was certainly not in response to winter kill. I hike our mountains way more than the average person and I found very few winter kills. Get your heads out of the sand people this a bad situation getting worst.
   I could and do rant forever but I will leave you intelligent supporters with one thought. How many deer, elk are the tribes killing? I will answer for you, don't know! They have no accountability towards management. Zero reporting or limits. Just consider it unlimited gov tags everyday.
   Legal poaching! That's what it is...
"BOOM"  :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:  Perfectly said!!!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 02, 2018, 07:23:57 AM
Dan-o, your comparison to large private landowners is a joke right? Birthright? Wow, as a landowner with "special rules" I am allowed one deer with regular state tag and another with my special depredation kill permit. With that privilege I have to pay property, sales, income tax etc.
   You people who do not live in the general areas will never understand. I can assure you that the Washington sportsman is not harvesting 50% of the branch bulls. The "natives" are killing way more than we legally harvest. The huge reduction in cow tags was certainly not in response to winter kill. I hike our mountains way more than the average person and I found very few winter kills. Get your heads out of the sand people this a bad situation getting worst.
   I could and do rant forever but I will leave you intelligent supporters with one thought. How many deer, elk are the tribes killing? I will answer for you, don't know! They have no accountability towards management. Zero reporting or limits. Just consider it unlimited gov tags everyday.
   Legal poaching! That's what it is...
"BOOM"  :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:  Perfectly said!!!!

I'm ashamed I even play the point game! I can't wait to draw so I never put another dime into their programs. I've been applying for easy stuff. Luckily antlerless deer is zeroed out. Onto everything else now
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 02, 2018, 07:37:28 AM
I am thinking there is a wolf in sheep's cl0othing trying to make us believe its not just legalized poaching.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JM on January 02, 2018, 08:49:50 AM
Dan-o, your comparison to large private landowners is a joke right? Birthright? Wow, as a landowner with "special rules" I am allowed one deer with regular state tag and another with my special depredation kill permit. With that privilege I have to pay property, sales, income tax etc.
   You people who do not live in the general areas will never understand. I can assure you that the Washington sportsman is not harvesting 50% of the branch bulls. The "natives" are killing way more than we legally harvest. The huge reduction in cow tags was certainly not in response to winter kill. I hike our mountains way more than the average person and I found very few winter kills. Get your heads out of the sand people this a bad situation getting worst.
   I could and do rant forever but I will leave you intelligent supporters with one thought. How many deer, elk are the tribes killing? I will answer for you, don't know! They have no accountability towards management. Zero reporting or limits. Just consider it unlimited gov tags everyday.
   Legal poaching! That's what it is...

I agree with you 110% on everything that you said except for the reduced # of cow tags. I can only speak for the Cowiche unit, but the main reason for the reduced number of cow tags for 368 is due to the number of cows harvested with depredation permits. I sure as hell can't be upset though because I was one of the people that put a depredation tag on a cow in January. The real dumb thing about this is that the elk being harvested on these permits in the Cowiche are either from the Rez herds or from the local herd from behind the store. Like I said earlier I can only speak for the Cowiche unit.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cavemann on January 02, 2018, 08:51:30 AM
The last go around of secret mediated meetings to sidestep the public for fishing rights and complete refusal to report harvest numbers has destroyed any credibility the tribes have.  As I've stated before WDFW gets lit up like a Christmas tree here because of there lack of credibility not prejudice..  The same goes for the tribes for me now.  If we want to continue to respect original land rights and use lets do it.  Let the Muks, Yaks, Skoks and all of them fight it out like they used to.  Why force them to work together, lets the best tribe win.  The double standard of them unifying for their benefit and screwing us over is ludicrous.

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: vandeman17 on January 02, 2018, 09:09:07 AM
So much to say but not worth the time.

What's the definition of insanity...?  :bash:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 11:10:59 AM
And no - my comparison was not a joke. 

 "our" government made a deal with "their" government.

Now most of us don't like the terms.    I don't either, by the way.

But our government made a treaty.   The Yakama's are hunting legally. That is not poaching.   It is not close. And most of us that hunt have tried to use weather to our advantage when possible. I've shot some mighty difficult elk, and some mighty easy ones over the years.   An easy hunt doesn't make it poaching, either. 

For the record:   I would LOVE for the treaty to be renegotiated, but I am not in favor of unilaterally breaking an agreement. Not with the Yakama's.  I believe in the rule of law...... and you can't really have that if you walk away from agreements when they no longer favor you. 

What I think would be constructive:    the US gov't doing anything and everything legally possible to compell the tribes to renegotiate. And I mean everything. Including discretionary Federal funds. 

I'd love to see a level playing field; but I won't fault the Yakama's for the fact that their ancestors made a treaty with the US that is now working well for them in some regards.

Be well. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 02, 2018, 11:18:22 AM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

I couldnít tell you who did it.  Not sure I know anyone ballsey enough to pull it off other than someone who can legally do it.

Though I canít believe anyone is that worthless to shoot an animal at a feeding station

Not much different than baiting. Just on a larger scale.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 02, 2018, 11:22:40 AM
Or like shooting the neighborhood deer, sporting. Then cut the horns off and walk away.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: vandeman17 on January 02, 2018, 11:32:53 AM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

I couldnít tell you who did it.  Not sure I know anyone ballsey enough to pull it off other than someone who can legally do it.

Though I canít believe anyone is that worthless to shoot an animal at a feeding station

Not much different than baiting. Just on a larger scale.

Comparing this to baiting, give me a break.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: MarkTrail on January 02, 2018, 11:38:54 AM
Jm, I absolutely agree with your assessment in regards to 368. The state does a poor job of maintaining the elk fence in some areas. The south end of the yakima herd and the north end(ellensburg) got pounded last winter by depredation tags. The state lead us to believe it was winter kill.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: B4noon on January 02, 2018, 12:27:04 PM
The hardest pill to swallow in the great debate weather you agree with the treaty rights or not personally I would rather see more oversight and have co-management to prevent over harvest the sour stomach gets you when you live in the area and have first hand knowledge that its not for subsistence the majority of it is for profit which I don't believe their ancestors negotiated a treaty on the basis of profit more so on the basis of subsistence.  There is great money being made by selling trophy antlers they aren't stacking them in the garage or putting them on the wall rather selling for profit.  The excess meat is a bi product and for years it's been no secret in yakima where to go to buy an elk carcass for $100.  It's not as much a practice of taking what we need from the environment to survive it has morphed into dollars running around in the woods and paychecks to cash which in turn desimates populations like anything else there is certainly a few bad apples giving them a black eye when you have 1 or 2 individuals taking over 100 trophy animals a year that's where the tribe needs to step in for their own sake and have some regulation on the raping of the land
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cavemann on January 02, 2018, 12:39:48 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 12:52:59 PM
Cavemann,

I think we agree.

As I said, I think the US gov't should use EVERY available lever to renegotiate the treaties.   

And I certainly don't think that having a few people harvest wayyyyyyy more than what they need is an OK plan. 

But, a deal is a deal. So let's use the leverage we have to renegotiate......   because we can't just walk away from the treaty. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 01:36:07 PM
The hardest pill to swallow in the great debate weather you agree with the treaty rights or not personally I would rather see more oversight and have co-management to prevent over harvest the sour stomach gets you when you live in the area and have first hand knowledge that its not for subsistence the majority of it is for profit which I don't believe their ancestors negotiated a treaty on the basis of profit more so on the basis of subsistence.  There is great money being made by selling trophy antlers they aren't stacking them in the garage or putting them on the wall rather selling for profit.  The excess meat is a bi product and for years it's been no secret in yakima where to go to buy an elk carcass for $100.  It's not as much a practice of taking what we need from the environment to survive it has morphed into dollars running around in the woods and paychecks to cash which in turn desimates populations like anything else there is certainly a few bad apples giving them a black eye when you have 1 or 2 individuals taking over 100 trophy animals a year that's where the tribe needs to step in for their own sake and have some regulation on the raping of the land
If I knew for 100% Iíd say the names of those bad apples, and if you can go buy an elk for $100, there should be an undercover investigation!  I completely agree with what your saying!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 01:38:08 PM
Cavemann,

I think we agree.

As I said, I think the US gov't should use EVERY available lever to renegotiate the treaties.   

And I certainly don't think that having a few people harvest wayyyyyyy more than what they need is an OK plan. 

But, a deal is a deal. So let's use the leverage we have to renegotiate......   because we can't just walk away from the treaty.
Id be willing to support a pay off, give each member 100,000 to follow state rules off the reservation, including all waters.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: B4noon on January 02, 2018, 02:34:33 PM
The names of the few are pretty well known, and undercover buys have been done multiple times by our enforcement only to hit the upper levels of enforcement with a directive not to prosicute for fear of creating more costly court orders in other areas brought on by the tribe.  The few successful stings have only resulted in non-tribal purchasers getting prosicuted.  Not all tribes are unregulated and the colvilles wold not stand for their members abusing their rights in this way.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 02, 2018, 02:42:25 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 02:56:18 PM
The names of the few are pretty well known, and undercover buys have been done multiple times by our enforcement only to hit the upper levels of enforcement with a directive not to prosicute for fear of creating more costly court orders in other areas brought on by the tribe.  The few successful stings have only resulted in non-tribal purchasers getting prosicuted.  Not all tribes are unregulated and the colvilles wold not stand for their members abusing their rights in this way.
wow!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on January 02, 2018, 03:04:22 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.


Serious question, not meant in any way to be confrontational, but what could possibly be out there to offer beyond (more?) money from the government, ability to make money from things like casinos, and hunting & fishing rights?

Sorry, but really can't come up with anything that could possibly get them to give anything they currently have up...
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: WSU on January 02, 2018, 03:11:41 PM
How about all the land back?
Title: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on January 02, 2018, 03:32:13 PM
Did they own all the land to begin with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 03:46:39 PM
Did they own all the land to begin with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
nope, they took it from somebody.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: goldenhtr on January 02, 2018, 03:59:15 PM
I think non-Tribal casinos should be legal. Hit them in the pocket book. See how long it takes them to see the light.

How's it go (What's good for the goose is good for the gander)
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Gringo31 on January 02, 2018, 04:04:45 PM
I suppose "tis the season"....



Frankly, I think it does good for people to actually listen to and make their points.  It makes them think a little more than just sitting around a campfire with only those who agree with them.   :twocents:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 04:12:01 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.


Serious question, not meant in any way to be confrontational, but what could possibly be out there to offer beyond (more?) money from the government, ability to make money from things like casinos, and hunting & fishing rights?

Sorry, but really can't come up with anything that could possibly get them to give anything they currently have up...
we lost a great opportunity back when tribes started putting in casinos, they probably would have given up somethingís for complete freedom of them, no restriction on certain games.  I personally think we could still bargain with them if the natives didnít have the democrats in their pocket!  We should let non natives open casinos with no gaming restrictions, that would piss off the natives and possible bring them to the bargening table?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: meatwhack on January 02, 2018, 04:22:33 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 02, 2018, 04:24:45 PM
And no - my comparison was not a joke. 

 "our" government made a deal with "their" government.

Now most of us don't like the terms.    I don't either, by the way.

But our government made a treaty.   The Yakama's are hunting legally. That is not poaching.   It is not close. And most of us that hunt have tried to use weather to our advantage when possible. I've shot some mighty difficult elk, and some mighty easy ones over the years.   An easy hunt doesn't make it poaching, either. 

For the record:   I would LOVE for the treaty to be renegotiated, but I am not in favor of unilaterally breaking an agreement. Not with the Yakama's.  I believe in the rule of law...... and you can't really have that if you walk away from agreements when they no longer favor you. 

What I think would be constructive:    the US gov't doing anything and everything legally possible to compell the tribes to renegotiate. And I mean everything. Including discretionary Federal funds. 

I'd love to see a level playing field; but I won't fault the Yakama's for the fact that their ancestors made a treaty with the US that is now working well for them in some regards.

Be well.

I think the tribes are not in compliance with the 50% take rulings or the treaty, can you prove me wrong? 

Nor could I prove you wrong, thus we need to investigate this and take it back to court and force some kind of inventory and tracking to see what 50% is and if they're taking too much.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 02, 2018, 04:28:51 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.


Kind of like our old 1 drop rule huh?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 02, 2018, 04:40:40 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.


Kind of like our old 1 drop rule huh?

I'd guess that when the treaties were written, they didn't expect a bunch of 3/4 or 7/8 white folk being considered tribal members.
Should Elizabeth Warren have gotten preference for college admissions by identifying as a Cherokee?  Should some 3/4 white guy that looks really white get special bids for federal contracts?  Extra fishing/hunting?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 02, 2018, 04:47:47 PM
I can't answer that question, what if some mostly white guy was raised on the reservation and that was the only life they knew, embraced the heritage and identified fully as Indian? 

on the other hand

Is it fair to have mostly white people running around with special birth rights and privileges when our country is so antithetical to birth right privileges?  I mean, how very British..


Tough question, and I don't know where to draw the line.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 02, 2018, 04:51:32 PM
yeah, it is a tough one.  Kind of a "so, you want to inherit from 1/4 of ancestors what the other 3/4 of ancestors were trying to kill and take?"
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Tbar on January 02, 2018, 07:02:42 PM
The legislative mandate in the Colockum herd will probably exceed  total tribal harvest in the region. This is and will be in excess of current damage framework.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 02, 2018, 07:06:44 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.

 :yeah: none of the Indians alive at the treaty signing are alive today. It's over. Done
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 07:27:58 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.

 :yeah: none of the Indians alive at the treaty signing are alive today. It's over. Done

So if your grandfather left you a birthrght and then died.....    It's over.   Done.???

Really?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 07:29:21 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.

Interesting.

I don't know if the treaties address this or not.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 07:35:42 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.


Serious question, not meant in any way to be confrontational, but what could possibly be out there to offer beyond (more?) money from the government, ability to make money from things like casinos, and hunting & fishing rights?

Sorry, but really can't come up with anything that could possibly get them to give anything they currently have up...

Great question......   I do not know the answer.

I don't know what kind of discretionary federal funds flow to the tribes (if any), I don't know about federal road projects, or other commerce-enabling things.   

Casinos..... seems like some tribes make a ton of money on casino's.   I don't know the logic behind not letting non-Natives compete in that arena.....  but I'm sure it's decided politically.   Seems like one more lever in negotiating.

In the end, I think there are only two possible outcomes:
  *  Continue on with the treaties as-is.
  *  Renegotiate (which implies both sides negotiate).

I don't see the US Gov't just walking away from the treaty, so why spend time and energy on that thought?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dvolmer on January 02, 2018, 08:16:35 PM
This pretty well sums it all up!  Even with all of the free stuff and super-hero rights, they are still in most cases miserable and unhappy.  Nothing will ever change.  It will always be the same.  They will go out and shoot it all up with there guns and trucks that have been bought with the tax payer money.  Sure there are exceptions.  Some who want to do whats right.  But that is few and far between.  When you try to change things to make it right, they will show up to court dancing in there furs, feathers, and moccasins.  Every liberal court in our state will side with them.  Just go for a drive through any of the reservations in our state and the facts above are easily verified.  But nothing and i mean nothing will ever change.  When the liberals finally win and take the hunting and gun rights away from Sportsman, the Indian will still be allowed to do as they please.  Go back over the last 300 to 500 years and there is nobody alive in this country that has ancestry that hasn't been conquered and treated unfairly.  We all should be getting a free ride because we all have been mistreated somewhere or at some time.  My question is, When is it all going to be done and everyone treated fairly???  Wow, I'm sounding like a liberal!!!!! ha ha (I wish it was really funny but its really not!!)
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 02, 2018, 09:03:09 PM
The bashing never ends.   So sad.  You canít pick your parents, when or where you are born. Some are born to privilege some to poverty.   Some are working and never getting ahead, some have no worries or wants. Just because it is not fair to you doesnít mean itís not fair. Get educated and stop the hate. Yes Iím 100% European decent. My family moved onto the Yakama Rez in 1917 on my motherís side. 1931 on my fathers side. I am the 4 th generation of Satus area farmers. I have no more rights on the Rez than someone living in Seattle . I have seen the good and bad in Native and non Native. Itís easy to point fingures at the Natives cause they do hunt in the daytime within their treaty rights . There is way more damage done at night by non natives. I shake my head at how fast members of this forum throw out the whole box when itís a limited few who are rotten.   SO SAD. NUFF SAID
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jnordwell on January 02, 2018, 09:31:53 PM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 02, 2018, 10:22:46 PM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

Just let them do it, who cares anymore. Kill everything off and eventually we won't buy tags. We can just go camping for a week at a time. Then WDFW won't have any money.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: swordtine on January 02, 2018, 10:44:22 PM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 03, 2018, 05:21:24 AM
Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: MADMAX on January 03, 2018, 06:03:19 AM
fishing and hunting around this state sucks anymore
Unbelievable

Killing on wintering grounds, and netting the rivers has done this.
Needs to stop

Oh how about some trash dumping up in the woods also

Sad how its become
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 06:22:49 AM
The bashing never ends.   So sad.  You canít pick your parents, when or where you are born. Some are born to privilege some to poverty.   Some are working and never getting ahead, some have no worries or wants. Just because it is not fair to you doesnít mean itís not fair. Get educated and stop the hate. Yes Iím 100% European decent. My family moved onto the Yakama Rez in 1917 on my motherís side. 1931 on my fathers side. I am the 4 th generation of Satus area farmers. I have no more rights on the Rez than someone living in Seattle . I have seen the good and bad in Native and non Native. Itís easy to point fingures at the Natives cause they do hunt in the daytime within their treaty rights . There is way more damage done at night by non natives. I shake my head at how fast members of this forum throw out the whole box when itís a limited few who are rotten.   SO SAD. NUFF SAID
I love it when someone throws out the racial card on this topic, no hate for the tribe as a whole here, it's about the resources and the lack of responsibility by a few.  Hate is Adolph Hitler, wanting to make us all equal is about as far from hate as you can get! I was given a vacation last time someone accused us (me) as being a racist, so I'll refrain from what I really want to say, you can probably guess.  As far as non natives poaching at night (or anytime), at least our law enforcement can do something about it and is.  The penalties that are given are not sufficient but at least something can be done.  I'd say most on this thread care about their fellow man just the same, the rotten apples ruin it on both sides, maybe we just care more about OUR fish and game then you do apparently? 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 06:26:53 AM
Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.
I wonder if its one of a couple that actually take 100 plus elk a year, imagine the impact two or three guys doing that yearly?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jpmiller on January 03, 2018, 06:38:47 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 03, 2018, 06:49:37 AM
Tribal Hunting = one more predator and the only one able to help us control the others..... how can we encourage tribal hound hunting of bear, cougar and wolves? 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Ccortez on January 03, 2018, 06:54:41 AM
Tribal Hunting = one more predator and the only one able to help us control the others..... how can we encourage tribal hound hunting of bear, cougar and wolves?

Some tribes are able to hound hunt but finding someone with hounds is difficult to find
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 07:05:38 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
Used to fish the Frazier river with a guide up in Canada, not sure about their hunting feelings, but they are not fond of the native fishing rights.  He used to run over their nets with his boat.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 03, 2018, 08:06:54 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.


In Wyoming there are a lot more recourses and a lot less people,.600,00 in Wyoming .  7 million in wa. The game in Wyoming is scattered over the whole state.

Native American population in Washington is Appx 130,000
Native American population in Wyoming is appx 13,000

Of course they donít have the same problems in Wyoming as we do. 

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jackelope on January 03, 2018, 08:14:05 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
Used to fish the Frazier river with a guide up in Canada, not sure about their hunting feelings, but they are not fond of the native fishing rights.  He used to run over their nets with his boat.

I'm not really a boat expert, but also not sure this would be a great idea. A big old net wrapped up in a prop sounds like a gigantic headache.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 03, 2018, 08:17:40 AM
What if its a Jet motor?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Timberstalker on January 03, 2018, 08:21:24 AM
Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.

 :yike: :yike: :yike:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Southpole on January 03, 2018, 08:32:06 AM
I have been told, that in Idaho, the natives still have to use dip nets to catch their share of fish out of rivers  :dunno:.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 08:39:48 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
Used to fish the Frazier river with a guide up in Canada, not sure about their hunting feelings, but they are not fond of the native fishing rights.  He used to run over their nets with his boat.

I'm not really a boat expert, but also not sure this would be a great idea. A big old net wrapped up in a prop sounds like a gigantic headache.
I should have said that he runs jet motors, your correct, a prop would be a mess.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 08:42:03 AM
I have been told, that in Idaho, the natives still have to use dip nets to catch their share of fish out of rivers  :dunno:.
not sure about that but they take more than their share of big elk in the blues, on our side of the boarder. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Tbar on January 03, 2018, 09:38:40 AM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:

 :yeah:   I think that might be the only way to get the natives to work with us in the conservation of our state's deer and elk.

 :yeah: Equal Seasons, Equal Bag Limits! That's the most fair statement I think I have ever heard regarding how to deal with the current situation. All parties would have equal opportunity! All parties would have to come together to save the resources!
You do realize, in this region,  there is more depredation harvest than recreational.  Also the WDFW as well as the lawmakers are trying to remedy (through killing wdfw discounted animals) what they deem a near crisis of overpopulated and invading elk. I'd like to hear Bernie speak to how the state treats these animals at a vulnerable time on their historic wintering grounds.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jmscon on January 03, 2018, 10:23:39 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.


In Wyoming there are a lot more recourses and a lot less people,.600,00 in Wyoming .  7 million in wa. The game in Wyoming is scattered over the whole state.

Native American population in Washington is Appx 130,000
Native American population in Wyoming is appx 13,000

Of course they donít have the same problems in Wyoming as we do.

Registered natives in this state number around 61,000, less than half of what you stated.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 03, 2018, 10:28:25 AM
Tribal Hunting = one more predator and the only one able to help us control the others..... how can we encourage tribal hound hunting of bear, cougar and wolves?

Some tribes are able to hound hunt but finding someone with hounds is difficult to find

Iím sure their are people willing to use their dogs and haul around a native.  Play the Iím just the white guy riding along and itís his dogs game. Funny thing is. Highly doubt you will get the out rage. If a native piled up 20 bears or cougars. Like you do over elk and deer.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cavemann on January 03, 2018, 10:33:03 AM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.

There is plenty emotion and opinion on each side.  My frustration is current  to today's situation an d in reference to public perception based off of current actions.  While I understand things have been frustrating, I'm not looking to continue to argue and debate the merits of frustrations from years, decades and centuries ago.  If that is the case we all will be stuck righting wrongs for much more than Tribal rights.... 

My opinion stands and I don't feel guilty for expressing it.  I'm not calling them poachers or bashing Tribal members.  I'm expressing an opinion based off of the break down of current status because that is the reality of today, not 1850, 1900, 1950 or even 1970...  There has been plenty of positives the Tribes have brought to the table and I appreciate and respect that.  I'm bowing out, in no way is my opinion based off of anything other than public perception as I have stated clearly.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dvolmer on January 03, 2018, 12:53:29 PM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Outside of Washington, on most of the reservations in Montana, Wyoming, and other western states, is that the Indians can only hunt on there respective reservations.  In Montana and Wyoming a native american cant just go hunt anywhere he wants too.  He can only hunt on the reservations.  If he hunts off of them, then he has to follow the rules of the state that he lives in.  Somehow the treaty that was made with the Indians in our region was for areas way outside of their reservations.  WDFW quit trying to fight this because every time they arrest or ticket a native, they simply go to our liberal court systems and it gets thrown out.  Your tax money and license money was being wasted fighting a fight that could never be won.  Not only are we paying for the lawyers to fight this but we are paying the lawyers to fight for the Indians.  One of my close friends who works as a biologist for WDFW and shares an office with the wardens told me that the WDFW has given up trying to prosecute the natives because it costs so much and they always loose.  They will hunt with the most modern weapons and equipment but show up in court in feathers and beads smoking the pipe.

Not only are they not going to fight or prosecute this, WDFW is told to not talk about it to the everyday sportsman and not to blame the lack of special permits and reduced animal numbers to the everyday sportsman because they dont want to referee a holy-war!  If the fisherman and hunters in this state really realized the cost of all of this they would go bizerk!  The sportsman is flipping the bill for all of the management and resource and a small number of individuals due to race are glutting themselves due to the loop holes of the law.  This problem is much much bigger than most people on this forum really understand and know.  WDFW is totally frustrated and has there hands tied and on top of this, told to keep their mouths shut.  you guys talk about them selling the meat for profit.  Just think what a set of Boone and Crockett antlers fetch on the market.  Just a decent 6x6 bull elk in the 300 inch class brings hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

They can drive right down to the feeding stations.  Cut the locks off of the gates.  drive right in.  Shoot 5 to 10 elk right in front of the 5th grade class field trip.  Load them in their truck.  Drive out and sell them.  AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU OR WDFW CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!!  NOTHING!!!!

How can a resourse ever be managed like this.  It cant!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Tbar on January 03, 2018, 01:20:30 PM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Outside of Washington, on most of the reservations in Montana, Wyoming, and other western states, is that the Indians can only hunt on there respective reservations.  In Montana and Wyoming a native american cant just go hunt anywhere he wants too.  He can only hunt on the reservations.  If he hunts off of them, then he has to follow the rules of the state that he lives in.  Somehow the treaty that was made with the Indians in our region was for areas way outside of their reservations.  WDFW quit trying to fight this because every time they arrest or ticket a native, they simply go to our liberal court systems and it gets thrown out.  Your tax money and license money was being wasted fighting a fight that could never be won.  Not only are we paying for the lawyers to fight this but we are paying the lawyers to fight for the Indians.  One of my close friends who works as a biologist for WDFW and shares an office with the wardens told me that the WDFW has given up trying to prosecute the natives because it costs so much and they always loose.  They will hunt with the most modern weapons and equipment but show up in court in feathers and beads smoking the pipe.

Not only are they not going to fight or prosecute this, WDFW is told to not talk about it to the everyday sportsman and not to blame the lack of special permits and reduced animal numbers to the everyday sportsman because they dont want to referee a holy-war!  If the fisherman and hunters in this state really realized the cost of all of this they would go bizerk!  The sportsman is flipping the bill for all of the management and resource and a small number of individuals due to race are glutting themselves due to the loop holes of the law.  This problem is much much bigger than most people on this forum really understand and know.  WDFW is totally frustrated and has there hands tied and on top of this, told to keep their mouths shut.  you guys talk about them selling the meat for profit.  Just think what a set of Boone and Crockett antlers fetch on the market.  Just a decent 6x6 bull elk in the 300 inch class brings hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

They can drive right down to the feeding stations.  Cut the locks off of the gates.  drive right in.  Shoot 5 to 10 elk right in front of the 5th grade class field trip.  Load them in their truck.  Drive out and sell them.  AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU OR WDFW CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!!  NOTHING!!!!

How can a resourse ever be managed like this.  It cant!
Dvolmer your claims are far from reality.  You really must pay a lot of attention to media sensationalizing a story.  Can you provide any facts to base your claims? Your, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy said doesn't hold merit other than to rally the mob. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: sockeye66 on January 03, 2018, 02:59:40 PM
I think non-Tribal casinos should be legal. Hit them in the pocket book. See how long it takes them to see the light.

How's it go (What's good for the goose is good for the gander)
my thoughts exactely :bash: :bash:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 03, 2018, 04:31:51 PM
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 03, 2018, 04:34:04 PM
Now is the time to move on casinos. Trump wants equality, which is all we want as well. Not give one group of people a bunch of special privileges then tell the other group of people they have to live amongst each other and be ok with it.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dvolmer on January 03, 2018, 05:25:40 PM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Outside of Washington, on most of the reservations in Montana, Wyoming, and other western states, is that the Indians can only hunt on there respective reservations.  In Montana and Wyoming a native american cant just go hunt anywhere he wants too.  He can only hunt on the reservations.  If he hunts off of them, then he has to follow the rules of the state that he lives in.  Somehow the treaty that was made with the Indians in our region was for areas way outside of their reservations.  WDFW quit trying to fight this because every time they arrest or ticket a native, they simply go to our liberal court systems and it gets thrown out.  Your tax money and license money was being wasted fighting a fight that could never be won.  Not only are we paying for the lawyers to fight this but we are paying the lawyers to fight for the Indians.  One of my close friends who works as a biologist for WDFW and shares an office with the wardens told me that the WDFW has given up trying to prosecute the natives because it costs so much and they always loose.  They will hunt with the most modern weapons and equipment but show up in court in feathers and beads smoking the pipe.

Not only are they not going to fight or prosecute this, WDFW is told to not talk about it to the everyday sportsman and not to blame the lack of special permits and reduced animal numbers to the everyday sportsman because they dont want to referee a holy-war!  If the fisherman and hunters in this state really realized the cost of all of this they would go bizerk!  The sportsman is flipping the bill for all of the management and resource and a small number of individuals due to race are glutting themselves due to the loop holes of the law.  This problem is much much bigger than most people on this forum really understand and know.  WDFW is totally frustrated and has there hands tied and on top of this, told to keep their mouths shut.  you guys talk about them selling the meat for profit.  Just think what a set of Boone and Crockett antlers fetch on the market.  Just a decent 6x6 bull elk in the 300 inch class brings hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

They can drive right down to the feeding stations.  Cut the locks off of the gates.  drive right in.  Shoot 5 to 10 elk right in front of the 5th grade class field trip.  Load them in their truck.  Drive out and sell them.  AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU OR WDFW CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!!  NOTHING!!!!

How can a resourse ever be managed like this.  It cant!
Dvolmer your claims are far from reality.  You really must pay a lot of attention to media sensationalizing a story.  Can you provide any facts to base your claims? Your, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy said doesn't hold merit other than to rally the mob.

First of all,  i hunt every year in Washington, Montana, and Wyoming.  My hunting partner who was born and raised here in West Richland graduated from college in Fishing and Wildlife Biology.  He currently works for the state of Montana and i hunt with him every year in Montana and Bi-yearly in Wyoming.  He knows what is going on in Montana with native issues.  My hunting partner here in Washington lives in the Tri-Cities and works for WDFW as a biologist.  Non of these two individuals are friends of friends of my uncles lost cousin.  They are current on the issues that address them in their jobs and in their passion of hunting and fishing.  This thread doesn't even start to address the issues that are way way out of control with native fishing and hunting issues in this state and in Oregon.  Drink all the Kool-Aid you want!  Stick your head in the sand!  Heck, sniff all the glue you want too as far as I care.  Liberals, Wolves, Grizzlies, and natives will be the end of our states hunting before you know it!  Happy hunting!!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 03, 2018, 05:42:11 PM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Outside of Washington, on most of the reservations in Montana, Wyoming, and other western states, is that the Indians can only hunt on there respective reservations.  In Montana and Wyoming a native american cant just go hunt anywhere he wants too.  He can only hunt on the reservations.  If he hunts off of them, then he has to follow the rules of the state that he lives in.  Somehow the treaty that was made with the Indians in our region was for areas way outside of their reservations.  WDFW quit trying to fight this because every time they arrest or ticket a native, they simply go to our liberal court systems and it gets thrown out.  Your tax money and license money was being wasted fighting a fight that could never be won.  Not only are we paying for the lawyers to fight this but we are paying the lawyers to fight for the Indians.  One of my close friends who works as a biologist for WDFW and shares an office with the wardens told me that the WDFW has given up trying to prosecute the natives because it costs so much and they always loose.  They will hunt with the most modern weapons and equipment but show up in court in feathers and beads smoking the pipe.

Not only are they not going to fight or prosecute this, WDFW is told to not talk about it to the everyday sportsman and not to blame the lack of special permits and reduced animal numbers to the everyday sportsman because they dont want to referee a holy-war!  If the fisherman and hunters in this state really realized the cost of all of this they would go bizerk!  The sportsman is flipping the bill for all of the management and resource and a small number of individuals due to race are glutting themselves due to the loop holes of the law.  This problem is much much bigger than most people on this forum really understand and know.  WDFW is totally frustrated and has there hands tied and on top of this, told to keep their mouths shut.  you guys talk about them selling the meat for profit.  Just think what a set of Boone and Crockett antlers fetch on the market.  Just a decent 6x6 bull elk in the 300 inch class brings hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

They can drive right down to the feeding stations.  Cut the locks off of the gates.  drive right in.  Shoot 5 to 10 elk right in front of the 5th grade class field trip.  Load them in their truck.  Drive out and sell them.  AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU OR WDFW CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!!  NOTHING!!!!

How can a resourse ever be managed like this.  It cant!
Dvolmer your claims are far from reality.  You really must pay a lot of attention to media sensationalizing a story.  Can you provide any facts to base your claims? Your, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy said doesn't hold merit other than to rally the mob.

First of all,  i hunt every year in Washington, Montana, and Wyoming.  My hunting partner who was born and raised here in West Richland graduated from college in Fishing and Wildlife Biology.  He currently works for the state of Montana and i hunt with him every year in Montana and Bi-yearly in Wyoming.  He knows what is going on in Montana with native issues.  My hunting partner here in Washington lives in the Tri-Cities and works for WDFW as a biologist.  Non of these two individuals are friends of friends of my uncles lost cousin.  They are current on the issues that address them in their jobs and in their passion of hunting and fishing.  This thread doesn't even start to address the issues that are way way out of control with native fishing and hunting issues in this state and in Oregon.  Drink all the Kool-Aid you want!  Stick your head in the sand!  Heck, sniff all the glue you want too as far as I care.  Liberals, Wolves, Grizzlies, and natives will be the end of our states hunting before you know it!  Happy hunting!!!

Donít forget to add miss management of wildlife from wdfw. They are towards the top of that list.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: meatwhack on January 03, 2018, 07:22:58 PM
How about we all just self identify as natives.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on January 03, 2018, 07:33:48 PM
How about we all just self identify as natives.
Whats really sad to me.. is my Father, who is completely against what we have seen tribal members do in our hunting grounds, is now doing a dna test to see how much "native" we have in us so that he might be able to claim something and be able to hunt like they do. He has all but given up on trying to hunt the way our WDF&Wolves wants us to. There is only so many times you can be driving in the hills during early archery season and see 3-4 tribal members jump out of vans/trucks with rifles and drop 8-10 deer then only take backstraps and hindquarters before you either give up or snap. We have seen it 2 times and found multiple other kill sites. Elk are almost non existent in the woods I grew up hunting with my father, south rainer GMU 513. You can drive down into packwood and see the elk but up in 513 if you see 1 elk in a year you are doing pretty dang good! Its very sad that our state has come to this point. Both from poachers and tribal members abusing the rights given to them by our liberal government. hell I have been laughed at up in the white river unit by tribal members while they were gutting a bull elk that they shot in the middle of the road! I have been putting in for that unit for qual and any bull for a long time and have yet to draw! I still go up every year and hunt bears up there but the mucks go up there and shoot elk like no other and now I'm considering investing my points in a different unit!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 03, 2018, 07:58:17 PM
I would do it.   I wouldn't hunt the feed lot or sell it, but I'd get a tribal license in a heart beat and hunt my way. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on January 03, 2018, 08:16:17 PM
I would do it.   I wouldn't hunt the feed lot or sell it, but I'd get a tribal license in a heart beat and hunt my way.
It kind of breaks my heart though that it has come to this point for him though. It is what it is I guess. Maybe I will get to hunt the white river unit a lot sooner lol!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: MarkTrail on January 03, 2018, 09:01:24 PM
Dvolmer, trophyhunt, you two guys have seen or heard from people close enough too realize just a small portion that is going on. Thanks for standing up and speaking out.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 04, 2018, 04:17:44 AM
How about we all just self identify as natives.
Whats really sad to me.. is my Father, who is completely against what we have seen tribal members do in our hunting grounds, is now doing a dna test to see how much "native" we have in us so that he might be able to claim something and be able to hunt like they do. He has all but given up on trying to hunt the way our WDF&Wolves wants us to. There is only so many times you can be driving in the hills during early archery season and see 3-4 tribal members jump out of vans/trucks with rifles and drop 8-10 deer then only take backstraps and hindquarters before you either give up or snap. We have seen it 2 times and found multiple other kill sites. Elk are almost non existent in the woods I grew up hunting with my father, south rainer GMU 513. You can drive down into packwood and see the elk but up in 513 if you see 1 elk in a year you are doing pretty dang good! Its very sad that our state has come to this point. Both from poachers and tribal members abusing the rights given to them by our liberal government. hell I have been laughed at up in the white river unit by tribal members while they were gutting a bull elk that they shot in the middle of the road! I have been putting in for that unit for qual and any bull for a long time and have yet to draw! I still go up every year and hunt bears up there but the mucks go up there and shoot elk like no other and now I'm considering investing my points in a different unit!

Seriously one elk a year in 513 :o  :bash: I think you should seriously change your hunting tactics before coming on here and bashing the natives.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 04, 2018, 05:17:31 AM
Are you doubting his hunting methods or abilities?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: deerlick on January 04, 2018, 01:14:25 PM
How about we all just self identify as natives.


this is what I have been saying. take that to court, how is it possible to loose.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 04, 2018, 01:31:31 PM
Are you doubting his hunting methods or abilities?

Both. Only seeing one elk a year in 513.  :chuckle: must have super dark tinted windows.  :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 04, 2018, 01:35:22 PM
 :chuckle:that could be I have never hunted that area before sounds like u see a few more
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 04, 2018, 02:08:25 PM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
There is no legal off reservation hunting under treaty rights by natives in Wyoming.  That is a current fact the Crow Nation heavily contests, and may be changed at some point in the future but to date the state has prevailed. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: meatwhack on January 04, 2018, 02:52:37 PM
If a tribe actually managed wildlife they would have more than enough to hunt and sustain themselves on their reservation if they desired to do so. Instead most tribes have slaughtered everything on their reservations due to unregulated hunting and therefore hunt off the reservation where the animals have been managed. Itís pretty easy to see the tribes that care about wildlife management because they have some of the best hunting in the country on their reservations.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on January 04, 2018, 04:38:47 PM
Are you doubting his hunting methods or abilities?

Both. Only seeing one elk a year in 513.  :chuckle: must have super dark tinted windows.  :dunno:
I hike quite a bit in that unit. I also guarantee that I spend more time in that unit than you do every year. Maybe you should take your crappy comments elsewhere and let the grown ups have a conversation instead of trying to bash my comments. Ohh and btw.. with a 15% or lower blacktail kill percentage in that unit I have killed deer in there every year except for this year when I hunted Kapowsin instead. I have seen with my own eyes the "natives" killing more animals up in those hills than you probably have seen in a whole year of scouting and hunting up there.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jackelope on January 04, 2018, 05:06:19 PM
Keep it on track and leave the personal attacks out of it.

 :peep:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on January 04, 2018, 05:50:26 PM
Keep it on track and leave the personal attacks out of it.

 :peep:
you got it. My bad. I shouldn't have let him pull me into that.

Back on topic. We have FAR too many variables ticking away at our herds of animals. Poachers being a big one and the excessive taking of game from other groups as well as the wolves and other apex predators in this state. We need EVERYONE to start reporting the animals they harvest and I mean that as in not just us sportsmen and women but also tribal.
Title: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 04, 2018, 07:44:13 PM
Are you doubting his hunting methods or abilities?

Both. Only seeing one elk a year in 513.  :chuckle: must have super dark tinted windows.  :dunno:
I hike quite a bit in that unit. I also guarantee that I spend more time in that unit than you do every year. Maybe you should take your crappy comments elsewhere and let the grown ups have a conversation instead of trying to bash my comments. Ohh and btw.. with a 15% or lower blacktail kill percentage in that unit I have killed deer in there every year except for this year when I hunted Kapowsin instead. I have seen with my own eyes the "natives" killing more animals up in those hills than you probably have seen in a whole year of scouting and hunting up there.

 You blame the natives for driving around and jumping out and shooting 8-10 elk. Well that statement is most likely false. That area is to brushy near the roads. To be able to pull that off. Unless itís in a thinned out area. Even then it most likely was 2-3. Thatís some pretty good shooting to dump 8-10 elk on a dead run through the timber. Should of asked them for shooting tips. You also claim that elk/deer numbers went down over the years. That I agree with. But natives have been doing what they do for a very long time. So letís look at what other things have changed and accured.

 Back in 96. Hound hunting was banned. Banning of hounds to hunt bears and cougars. Noticeably in the first few years nothing was noticed. Letís say year 10 after the ban took place. Everyone started to notice the lack of elk/deer numbers. Now I know your scratching your head at this point. The over population of predators does far more damage to the elk/deer numbers then ANY truck load of natives could do. One single cougar kills an elk/deer a week. Bears do their part on fawns/calfís. Washington state quota is what a few hundred cougars a year. Early season starts September 1st tell December 31. Then late season starts January tell April. But half the units are closed come January 1st.  So in those areas the cougars donít even get a dent put in them. You take 5 cougars out of letís say unit 101. For the 5 taken. How many more Cubs are born. Way more then 5. So the predators will always grow in this state. Bears are a little better managed. But yet season is over November 15th. The wdfw offer very little spring bear tags and only for a select number of units. Thatís a problem. Should be more tags and every unit has a spring bear season. So before you go bashing the natives for shooting an elk on feeding grounds. Maybe you should educate yourself on just how much damage the predators are doing. Thatís not even considering the over population of coyotes and then the wolves.

 Also last year. The wdfw some how miss placed half million fish on cowlitz. Thatís gonna have a huge impact. Again way more then any native can dip, catch or whatever method they use. The wdfw says their hands are tied. Iím sure to a point thatís correct. Yet if the natives are in the spot light to us hunters. It takes it off of wdfw.
 
  You can take it for what itís worth. Are the tactics that a hand full of natives do effect the elk/deer numbers. Yes but very small part.  But the bigger problem is predators hands down. Without predator control. Our elk/deer have no chance.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on January 04, 2018, 07:52:02 PM










Keep it on track and leave the personal attacks out of it.

 :peep:
you got it. My bad. I shouldn't have let him pull me into that.

Back on topic. We have FAR too many variables ticking away at our herds of animals. Poachers being a big one and the excessive taking of game from other groups as well as the wolves and other apex predators in this state. We need EVERYONE to start reporting the animals they harvest and I mean that as in not just us sportsmen and women but also tribal.




x2  :tup:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cryder on January 06, 2018, 07:04:12 AM
I have a native friend that keeps asking me to go elk hunting with him on tribal lands , never have cuz of the jail time factors , but what would you guys do ? Is this a no no I'm not a state legislature guru , so I don't no , I'll try to find the end of this jiggernot , to check your info , very interested , he gets elk every year so , I'm somewhat interested , or I could just go fishing ?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jennabug on January 06, 2018, 07:58:10 AM
I have a native friend that keeps asking me to go elk hunting with him on tribal lands , never have cuz of the jail time factors , but what would you guys do ? Is this a no no I'm not a state legislature guru , so I don't no , I'll try to find the end of this jiggernot , to check your info , very interested , he gets elk every year so , I'm somewhat interested , or I could just go fishing ?

I suspect it would depend on the tribe. My father in law is registered Yakama, and my husband can go with him on tribal land as a family helper.

P.S. they've hunted elk together for 3 years there and have yet to bring one home.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: h20hunter on January 06, 2018, 09:05:44 AM
 :yeah:

If he is your friend and an ethical hunter I say why not go.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dscubame on January 06, 2018, 10:27:22 AM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jpmiller on January 06, 2018, 12:34:57 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 06, 2018, 12:57:46 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
There's more than a few on here that travel to three or more states a year killing elk in all three as well as deer.  But they also have to report harvests so numbers can be used for management.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jpmiller on January 06, 2018, 04:31:13 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
There's more than a few on here that travel to three or more states a year killing elk in all three as well as deer.  But they also have to report harvests so numbers can be used for management.

In a perfect world there would be record but hunting without a license year round makes data gathering difficult. I also don't like the stories I hear of animals being sold or of waste of meat, but I think the taking of multiple animals at a time or over the course of a year is more understandable than outrageous.
Title: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 06, 2018, 07:29:45 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
There's more than a few on here that travel to three or more states a year killing elk in all three as well as deer.  But they also have to report harvests so numbers can be used for management.

In a perfect world there would be record but hunting without a license year round makes data gathering difficult. I also don't like the stories I hear of animals being sold or of waste of meat, but I think the taking of multiple animals at a time or over the course of a year is more understandable than outrageous.

My cousin worked as a prison guard in Orofino Idaho for 20+ years and use to clean up the reservation houses on projects. Said there would be stacks of rotten untouched carcuses in the backyards of these homes. Stewards of the land my ó-
Title: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on January 06, 2018, 09:10:29 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
There's more than a few on here that travel to three or more states a year killing elk in all three as well as deer.  But they also have to report harvests so numbers can be used for management.

In a perfect world there would be record but hunting without a license year round makes data gathering difficult. I also don't like the stories I hear of animals being sold or of waste of meat, but I think the taking of multiple animals at a time or over the course of a year is more understandable than outrageous.

My cousin worked as a prison guard in Orofino Idaho for 20+ years and use to clean up the reservation houses on projects. Said there would be stacks of rotten untouched carcuses in the backyards of these homes. Stewards of the land my ó-.

i grew up next to a chippewa rez in NW WI and used to play on rez

Revealing how dogs, horses and sometimes children are treated , plus the game wastage, - Take a drive out sometimes on the special land and let your eyes and ears take in what is really happening -real shame

replying to your stewards of the land remark