Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Bow Hunting => Topic started by: dreamingbig on January 24, 2018, 10:39:51 PM

Title: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 24, 2018, 10:39:51 PM
I just read the proposed elk regs and the amount of lost opportunity by bowhunters is absurd.

The Nile, Bumping and Rimrock is all spike only with no cow permits.  Both modern and muzzle loader have cow permits.

I canít make sense of these proposed changes.

I canít sleep now... GGRRRRRR


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: hughjorgan on January 25, 2018, 12:03:44 AM
I believe we are getting fed a nice chit sandwich. I just crunched the harvest numbers and in no way has our harvest increased enough in the Nile, bumping or rimrock to warrant taking away our opportunity to hunt cows.

The take of cows in the quilomene and naneum on the other hand from the last two years available data show a substantial increase of cows taken.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 25, 2018, 05:14:54 AM
Its a choice of weapon cycle where in 6 yrs you will get your cow permits back, kind of like the wolf ungulate cycle. :chuckle: Think of it as an experiment by WDFW
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: MADMAX on January 25, 2018, 05:34:48 AM
Total BS
West side here I come .......... again
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 25, 2018, 06:42:12 AM
Everyone needs to submit comments during the comment period.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: 92xj on January 25, 2018, 06:52:34 AM
I'm curious if bowhunters have any support from muzzleloader and rifle hunters that benefited from the taking away of bowhunters or if they support the proposed changes.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 25, 2018, 06:56:40 AM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: jdb on January 25, 2018, 06:57:05 AM
Isn't there still cows to hunt late?
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: 92xj on January 25, 2018, 07:02:53 AM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: 92xj on January 25, 2018, 07:04:54 AM
Isn't there still cows to hunt late?
Yep and those cows stay exactly in the same place in late November and early December as they do in September. Especially with all the farms and feed stations down low, they have zero desire to leave and go to that nice fresh lowland private out of unit food. The late season is like shooting fish in a barrel up there.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 25, 2018, 07:10:30 AM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.
  I haven't looked over all of the proposed permits yet so I couldn't speak to that yet.  I'm speaking to the Yakima pmu not klickitat.   Had a good convo with a bio friend last fall and the Yakima herd is down thousands of animals over the last three years.  End goal should be healthy robust herds.  If that comes with the loss of some opportunity for a 3 year cycle I'm ok with that within reason.  Did they add a significant amount of cow tags for muzzy and rifle in the Yakima gmu's?

I'm still extremely angry that the state fails to do anything to help our mule deer herds in this state.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: 92xj on January 25, 2018, 07:15:40 AM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.
  I haven't looked over all of the proposed permits yet so I couldn't speak to that yet.  I'm speaking to the Yakima pmu not klickitat.   Had a good convo with a bio friend last fall and the Yakima herd is down thousands of animals over the last three years.  End goal should be healthy robust herds.  If that comes with the loss of some opportunity for a 3 year cycle I'm ok with that within reason.  Did they add a significant amount of cow tags for muzzy and rifle in the Yakima gmu's?

I'm still extremely angry that the state fails to do anything to help our mule deer herds in this state.

Well, maybe not. I could have been mistake and misspoke.  I thought I had read there was an increase in permit cow tags for those two groups, but I just looked at the pdf and did not see an increase, just the same number of cow permit tags for them. 
But then I question, why not decrease those tags to help build the herd?
Taken something 100% away from one group just sucks, for whatever group that is.  Give and take, not just take.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 25, 2018, 07:28:32 AM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.
  I haven't looked over all of the proposed permits yet so I couldn't speak to that yet.  I'm speaking to the Yakima pmu not klickitat.   Had a good convo with a bio friend last fall and the Yakima herd is down thousands of animals over the last three years.  End goal should be healthy robust herds.  If that comes with the loss of some opportunity for a 3 year cycle I'm ok with that within reason.  Did they add a significant amount of cow tags for muzzy and rifle in the Yakima gmu's?

I'm still extremely angry that the state fails to do anything to help our mule deer herds in this state.

Well, maybe not. I could have been mistake and misspoke.  I thought I had read there was an increase in permit cow tags for those two groups, but I just looked at the pdf and did not see an increase, just the same number of cow permit tags for them. 
But then I question, why not decrease those tags to help build the herd?
Taken something 100% away from one group just sucks, for whatever group that is.  Give and take, not just take.
  I agree 100%. However we still have late season opportunities. But I would also argue that taking away rifle and Muzzleloader cow permits would be more effective than General archery especially the early-season. I have not looked at Harvest data to back that up though so maybe I'm just talking out my behind LOL. 
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 25, 2018, 07:29:35 AM
It does look like the kittitas boys took it in the shorts though with big permit increases.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: vandeman17 on January 25, 2018, 08:20:03 AM
I just get the feel that there is more to the halting of archery cow tags than meets the eye. Maybe some influence from a certain group behind the scenes had some sway in this vote...
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 25, 2018, 08:34:10 AM
Yakima gmu's had 1800ish cow tags from 2014-2016 as well as early and late otc archery.  Add in a couple worse than normal winters.  In my conversations with a yakima bio last fall he said population had dipped from something like 12k+ to 8500 (don't remember the exact stats).  Gross mismanagement along with Mother Nature is at fault but blaming things in the past don't help the future.  We need to do what is best for elk and deer not what is best for our own personal hunting endeavours.  I've said it a couple different times now that we need to quit *censored*footing around game management. If the ultimate goal is to build her populations back up to where they are at a healthy number let's do that. Cut all cow hunting for the next 3 years and let's attack this thing and get it back to the sustainable number and then keep it there.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Rainier10 on January 25, 2018, 08:36:09 AM
Everyone needs to submit comments during the comment period.


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:yeah: :yeah:

This actually works along with a trip to the commission meeting to voice your opinion.  You have to make sure that you argue to have OTC cow hunts in multiple units to keep hunters spread out.  If one unit is open and all the others around it are closed people will migrate to the one unit that is open.

If the move to no archery cow opportunity is herd health then we have to argue to eliminate the extra muzzy and modern cow tags.  I just don't see how the solution is to take opportunity away from one group and give more to the other two groups.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Rainier10 on January 25, 2018, 08:41:35 AM
It does look like the kittitas boys took it in the shorts though with big permit increases.
Yes no OTC cow hunting in early season archery.  100 permits for early archery cow.

Muzzy cow increased from 50 to 100, doubled.

Modern cow increased from 100 to 250, more than doubled.

Archery still has late OTC cow opportunity.

It just doesn't look like a herd health thing in 328&329, it looks like moving opportunity from one group to another.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: trophyhunt on January 25, 2018, 09:06:39 AM
Ill say it, you have a certain group that have ZERO limits on deer and elk, and that group doesnít provide real accurate harvest data. So, how in the hell can you manage herds under those conditions? Just asking, all facts with no bashing.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 25, 2018, 09:53:53 AM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.
  I haven't looked over all of the proposed permits yet so I couldn't speak to that yet.  I'm speaking to the Yakima pmu not klickitat.   Had a good convo with a bio friend last fall and the Yakima herd is down thousands of animals over the last three years.  End goal should be healthy robust herds.  If that comes with the loss of some opportunity for a 3 year cycle I'm ok with that within reason.  Did they add a significant amount of cow tags for muzzy and rifle in the Yakima gmu's?

I'm still extremely angry that the state fails to do anything to help our mule deer herds in this state.
Karl,

I respect your opinion but disagree.  Here is part of the reason.  Anterless opportunity in the bumping is zero for archery (closed in late season) while still 50 tags between MF and MZ.  Why donít the archers get a chance?


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 25, 2018, 09:59:00 AM
Yakima gmu's had 1800ish cow tags from 2014-2016 as well as early and late otc archery.  Add in a couple worse than normal winters.  In my conversations with a yakima bio last fall he said population had dipped from something like 12k+ to 8500 (don't remember the exact stats).  Gross mismanagement along with Mother Nature is at fault but blaming things in the past don't help the future.  We need to do what is best for elk and deer not what is best for our own personal hunting endeavours.  I've said it a couple different times now that we need to quit *censored*footing around game management. If the ultimate goal is to build her populations back up to where they are at a healthy number let's do that. Cut all cow hunting for the next 3 years and let's attack this thing and get it back to the sustainable number and then keep it there.
The Yakima herd was over objective and they were complaining.  Now it is supposedly below and they f the archers to bring it back?

They made the same switch in 2010 and had no herd health issues at that time.  I donít believe this is based on science.

The only reason we got it back is because we got active and vocal.  This commission will run over the archery user group every chance they get.



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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 25, 2018, 10:23:07 AM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.
  I haven't looked over all of the proposed permits yet so I couldn't speak to that yet.  I'm speaking to the Yakima pmu not klickitat.   Had a good convo with a bio friend last fall and the Yakima herd is down thousands of animals over the last three years.  End goal should be healthy robust herds.  If that comes with the loss of some opportunity for a 3 year cycle I'm ok with that within reason.  Did they add a significant amount of cow tags for muzzy and rifle in the Yakima gmu's?

I'm still extremely angry that the state fails to do anything to help our mule deer herds in this state.
Karl,

I respect your opinion but disagree.  Here is part of the reason.  Anterless opportunity in the bumping is zero for archery (closed in late season) while still 50 tags between MF and MZ.  Why donít the archers get a chance?


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you are correct and I don't necessarily disagree though unit 4 unit they may not be equivalent we do still have those late opportunities and other GM use they're probably better that time of year than bumping.  I've written to Fur and Feathers on multiple occasions about that very thing. Bumping as well as Bethel both need to be open for late archery.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: buglebrush on January 25, 2018, 12:56:11 PM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.

But the sad thing is that our opportunity is being reduced because of WDFW'S refusal to manage predators.  Herds can only support so much loss, and in WDFW'S view it's better to have excess predators and less hunters.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 25, 2018, 01:00:51 PM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.

But the sad thing is that our opportunity is being reduced because of WDFW'S refusal to manage predators.  Herds can only support so much loss, and in WDFW'S view it's better to have excess predators and less hunters.
  oh we are a predator state for sure! But Hunters like to pretend that we are not part of that equation there are far more human predators in the woods then there are four legged predators in the woods. That's the thing about pointing her finger at something,  there's 3 pointing back at us. 
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: tgomez on January 25, 2018, 04:57:53 PM
The majority of hunters in this state are modern firearm hunters bringing in the most coin for WDFW. I was planning on going to the Nile to hunt spikes/cows this September, but this just ruined my plans. I always wanted to get a black bear with my Hoyt spot and stalk, so I might just go for that goal while chasing whitetail as well. As they say, "It is what it is."
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Kylew on January 25, 2018, 08:24:09 PM
I would have to agree that there needs to be more predator control with the use of hounds in this state. It really makes me sick. I just really wonder what our fish and game is really thinking and doing. It feels they run off of emotions rather than science or what works. I do remember before 96í our numbers of blacktail and elk where far better when you where lucky to see a bear and hardly even heard of a lion being spotted. What can a guy do ? Leaving comments isnít working. The elk and deer need help now. We need a Randy newberg or adopt Idahoís fish and game lol.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: hughjorgan on January 25, 2018, 09:07:43 PM
Early season will be a ghost town like it was in the Nile and bumping the last time they made it spike only.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: follow maggie on January 25, 2018, 09:43:04 PM
I would have to agree that there needs to be more predator control with the use of hounds in this state. It really makes me sick. I just really wonder what our fish and game is really thinking and doing. It feels they run off of emotions rather than science or what works. I do remember before 96í our numbers of blacktail and elk where far better when you where lucky to see a bear and hardly even heard of a lion being spotted. What can a guy do ? Leaving comments isnít working. The elk and deer need help now. We need a Randy newberg or adopt Idahoís fish and game lol.

It is run off of emotion. Last year fish & wildlife recommended increasing the cougar quota but Inslee nixed it because his anti hunting base wanted him to. As far as what can a guy do, this guy is spending his time and money in Idaho, Montana & North Dakota. And I'll be writing a letter to all of my representatives detailing the thousands of dollars I spend doing so, that otherwise would have been spent in Washington.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 26, 2018, 07:18:17 AM
 I like that.  I am going to tell them how much I will spend out of state  too!


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: winshooter88 on January 26, 2018, 08:04:52 AM
Bow hunters have some of the most vocal lobbying groups in this state, if they aren't complaining about these changes then there must be a good reason, from what I have seen they push for everything they think they can get all the time.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 26, 2018, 08:44:10 AM
I just wish for once Hunter's as a collective would have herd health as first priority instead of our own personal gain. If the Yakima pmu is under objective numbers then we all need to take a little hit on opportunity to build those numbers back up to a healthy sustainable population. We need to remember we can still take our stick and string into the woods in September and Chase elk. That was not taken away from us. Remember it's only a three year cycle as well. 

Unfortunately wdfw rarely gets to use science when it comes to actual management because when a group doesn't get their way they scream the loudest. Then the pendulum swings in the other direction and that group starts to scream. I have had good conversations with the biologist in my area and they know what they are doing. I just wish for once we let their recommendations be the guide for the future of our hunting heritage.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 26, 2018, 08:52:18 AM
Idaho Fish and Game should use our Hunting Regulations as an advertisement for promoting tourism...
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: hughjorgan on January 26, 2018, 09:02:44 AM
I just wish for once Hunter's as a collective would have herd health as first priority instead of our own personal gain. If the Yakima pmu is under objective numbers then we all need to take a little hit on opportunity to build those numbers back up to a healthy sustainable population. We need to remember we can still take our stick and string into the woods in September and Chase elk. That was not taken away from us. Remember it's only a three year cycle as well. 

Unfortunately wdfw rarely gets to use science when it comes to actual management because when a group doesn't get their way they scream the loudest. Then the pendulum swings in the other direction and that group starts to scream. I have had good conversations with the biologist in my area and they know what they are doing. I just wish for once we let their recommendations be the guide for the future of our hunting heritage.

Maybe the WDFW should be more concerned for the health of our elk herd before they go and give out exorbitant amount of cow tags to reduce the herd even though they didn't do any aerial surveys in 2014 and 2015 when they were being so generous with tags. Even as late as 2016 the WDFW claimed the status of the Yakima herd was well above its objective. Doesn't seem like they are being good stewards of the peoples resource...
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: nitroelk on January 26, 2018, 09:11:12 AM
typical wdfw. maybe enough public comment will sway them, but not likely. at least we'll have late season.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Rainier10 on January 26, 2018, 09:35:33 AM
typical wdfw. maybe enough public comment will sway them, but not likely. at least we'll have late season.
I have been to commission meetings before and the rules were actually modified based on comments received via the website comment page and testimony given at the meeting.

These rules are by no means set in stone.

I am going to be asking more questions and doing some more research.  If there is a good reason for the changes I am all in.  If I don't like the responses I get for the changes I will let them know at the meeting.  For now I am going to comment on my concerns with the changes and see if they get back to me with their reasoning for the changes.  My guess is I will have to wait until the commission meeting.  That is where they have given their reasons in the past.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: bearpaw on January 26, 2018, 09:41:02 AM
typical wdfw. maybe enough public comment will sway them, but not likely. at least we'll have late season.
I have been to commission meetings before and the rules were actually modified based on comments received via the website comment page and testimony given at the meeting.

These rules are by no means set in stone.

I am going to be asking more questions and doing some more research.  If there is a good reason for the changes I am all in.  If I don't like the responses I get for the changes I will let them know at the meeting.  For now I am going to comment on my concerns with the changes and see if they get back to me with their reasoning for the changes.  My guess is I will have to wait until the commission meeting.  That is where they have given their reasons in the past.

 :yeah: Bow hunters and other user groups can certainly encourage changes, like you I've seen it happen at the commission meetings.

However, I don't think the commission will vary much on big predators, the anti-groups and upper government really control that agenda.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Special T on January 26, 2018, 10:43:26 AM
typical wdfw. maybe enough public comment will sway them, but not likely. at least we'll have late season.
I have been to commission meetings before and the rules were actually modified based on comments received via the website comment page and testimony given at the meeting.

These rules are by no means set in stone.

I am going to be asking more questions and doing some more research.  If there is a good reason for the changes I am all in.  If I don't like the responses I get for the changes I will let them know at the meeting.  For now I am going to comment on my concerns with the changes and see if they get back to me with their reasoning for the changes.  My guess is I will have to wait until the commission meeting.  That is where they have given their reasons in the past.

 :yeah: Bow hunters and other user groups can certainly encourage changes, like you I've seen it happen at the commission meetings.

However, I don't think the commission will vary much on big predators, the anti-groups and upper government really control that agenda.
If that is the case BP it means we are fighting over a decreasing pool of game.it also means that while the different user groups are fighting amongst themselves the department can slowly transition away from sportsmen priorities and $.

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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 26, 2018, 02:38:52 PM
Bow hunters have some of the most vocal lobbying groups in this state, if they aren't complaining about these changes then there must be a good reason, from what I have seen they push for everything they think they can get all the time.
They are complaining.  These changes/moves caught them off guard.  #doyourresearch


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: bobcat on January 26, 2018, 02:49:45 PM
I'm happy with the reduction in general season antlerless elk opportunity, because I think it's needed to bring elk numbers back up. But at the same time I'm really surprised that they're not offering at least a small number of special permits for antlerless elk during the early archery elk season. They could definitely sell a lot of applications at $7.10 each, so why there are none is really baffling to me.

I think I'll send in a comment suggesting that they do just that. Even if it were only 40 to 50 permits for each unit, that would be better than nothing, and fair since there are antlerless permits offered for muzzleloader and modern firearm.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 26, 2018, 05:32:36 PM
They should be required to submit the science behind these changes now and not wait for the meeting.  They made the same changes in 2010 without a scientific reason.  If you are going to go from unlimited to zero you can at least be forthcoming with a reason.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: nitroelk on January 27, 2018, 05:47:48 AM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Stickerbush on January 27, 2018, 08:12:51 AM
Tag
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: bobcat on January 27, 2018, 08:17:07 AM
Hunting seasons for the most part are not based on science. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way it is. It's fine to ask for the reasoning behind a change like this, but don't ask for that reason to be based on science.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: hunter399 on January 27, 2018, 08:22:14 AM
Here's the science, we gave out a lot of permits and OTC tags made a pile of 💰 ,oops the herd in trouble we better do something we don't wanna lose our 💰 maker.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Buzz2401 on January 27, 2018, 08:59:15 AM
The herds are in trouble because of last winter.  It was brutal for herds.  The increased number of antlerless tags the few years prior was a good thing or even more elk would of died last winter.  Elk permits for Eastern Modern and eastern Muzzleloader are down to less then 5% of what they historically have been.  Ya it sucks for a loss of opportunity but with the increased number of archery guys out and the reduced herds do to last years harsh weather I think this is a smart move.  With each of the units that saw antlerless archery go away they were averaging 50 or so cows taken a year per GMU so the that is still more then the rifle hunters averaged even with 250 permits when they used to hand that many out.  Look at the statistics, hunting during modern is not easy and success rates are really low.  It is not because of lack of skill or effort it is because the animals have been getting pushed around for two months and are not in the rut. 
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: fastdam on January 27, 2018, 10:51:51 AM
Muzzy guys better get ready for some company!
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 27, 2018, 01:43:37 PM
Hunting seasons for the most part are not based on science. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way it is. It's fine to ask for the reasoning behind a change like this, but don't ask for that reason to be based on science.
Huh?  I meant herd health, total population, management goals etc.  There is science and math used counting total population and carrying capacity of land.

If the game department doesnít use science they are even more screwed up than your view of hunting.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 27, 2018, 01:44:06 PM
Muzzy guys better get ready for some company!
Yup.  A cow tag in October will have to do.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on January 27, 2018, 01:52:20 PM
The herds are in trouble because of last winter.  It was brutal for herds.  The increased number of antlerless tags the few years prior was a good thing or even more elk would of died last winter.  Elk permits for Eastern Modern and eastern Muzzleloader are down to less then 5% of what they historically have been.  Ya it sucks for a loss of opportunity but with the increased number of archery guys out and the reduced herds do to last years harsh weather I think this is a smart move.  With each of the units that saw antlerless archery go away they were averaging 50 or so cows taken a year per GMU so the that is still more then the rifle hunters averaged even with 250 permits when they used to hand that many out.  Look at the statistics, hunting during modern is not easy and success rates are really low.  It is not because of lack of skill or effort it is because the animals have been getting pushed around for two months and are not in the rut.
The allocation of harvest is based on % of hunters.  That is the formula the GMAC has agreed upon. These changes are in direct violation of this agreement.

If the herd (big if) is down then 1. They should be able to present numbers and facts and 2. Then all anterless opportunity should be eliminated.

I donít agree with the allocation process but if those are the rules then they better follow them.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: bobcat on January 27, 2018, 02:07:52 PM
Hunting seasons for the most part are not based on science. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way it is. It's fine to ask for the reasoning behind a change like this, but don't ask for that reason to be based on science.
Huh?  I meant herd health, total population, management goals etc.  There is science and math used counting total population and carrying capacity of land.

If the game department doesnít use science they are even more screwed up than your view of hunting.


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First, we don't have a game department. I wish we did, maybe then deer and elk would be the priority.

Second, ask the WDFW if deer and elk population objectives are based more on science, or on what private landowners will tolerate.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: jdb on January 27, 2018, 02:09:32 PM
Ok donít hate me for asking this but if they didnít take away the late season couldnít they then argue that theyíre in affect reducing the opportunity not eliminating it? Donít get me wrong I donít really agree with what theyíve done. Iíd estimate way more cows are killed late rather than early if they want to reduce the cows killed they shouldíve tak n late season
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: hughjorgan on January 27, 2018, 04:10:54 PM
Late seasons suck, they jam everyone into a small unit and open others that don't have many critters since they've already moved down. IMO they are just going to put more stress on the resource in the late season. The Nile is busier than modern firearm season in that unit.

If they are reducing opportunity for Archery they should adjust tags accordingly for muzzleloader and modern.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: MADMAX on January 27, 2018, 05:55:35 PM
Seems like if you hunt in Washington
From what Ive seen in the last 35 years.
You need to learn to bend over
User groups- imagine how nice it was to get one deer or elk tag and be able to pursue using all weapon choices.
Less than 50 bucks for all liscences
Then it was choose your hunt area for elk east or west
Then good bye to bear and cat hounds and bear baiting
Goodbye to body grip trapping
Habitat loss
Tree company fees
Now itís just more of the same plus lets add some wolves in also
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: snake on January 27, 2018, 06:29:52 PM
Everyone needs to submit comments during the comment period.


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:yeah: :yeah:

This actually works along with a trip to the commission meeting to voice your opinion.  You have to make sure that you argue to have OTC cow hunts in multiple units to keep hunters spread out.  If one unit is open and all the others around it are closed people will migrate to the one unit that is open.


If the move to no archery cow opportunity is herd health then we have to argue to eliminate the extra muzzy and modern cow tags.  I just don't see how the solution is to take opportunity away from one group and give more to the other two groups.
Definitely need to open up some more GMU's for early archery. Even if they are spike only.  Bethel, Tampico, and Little Naches or at least one of them.  No reason archers should NEVER be able to hunt early in those units. It would relieve a lot of crowding and pressure on the animals. 
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: hughjorgan on January 27, 2018, 08:23:01 PM
Everyone needs to submit comments during the comment period.


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:yeah: :yeah:

This actually works along with a trip to the commission meeting to voice your opinion.  You have to make sure that you argue to have OTC cow hunts in multiple units to keep hunters spread out.  If one unit is open and all the others around it are closed people will migrate to the one unit that is open.


If the move to no archery cow opportunity is herd health then we have to argue to eliminate the extra muzzy and modern cow tags.  I just don't see how the solution is to take opportunity away from one group and give more to the other two groups.
Definitely need to open up some more GMU's for early archery. Even if they are spike only.  Bethel, Tampico, and Little Naches or at least one of them.  No reason archers should NEVER be able to hunt early in those units. It would relieve a lot of crowding and pressure on the animals.

 :yeah:
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Oh Mah on January 27, 2018, 09:45:53 PM
I realize i'm gonna get flamed but how many on this thread have taken the time to go out and kill some coyotes,bear or tag a cougar this season?Another way of looking at this as was pointed out already is there are way more modern firearm hunters putting in the pot stands to reason they should have more from the pot.Also if there are more modern firearm hunters out trying to help with the problem by killing coyotes,bears and cougars then maybe they should be rewarded more from the pot.  :twocents: If you are an archery hunter as well i am then maybe this year go hunt modern if you want a chance at a cow tag.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Fullabull on January 27, 2018, 09:52:41 PM
This state will always cater to those who spend the most money and that is the MF  group. Give archers better early season dates and take away the late season.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Oh Mah on January 27, 2018, 10:32:13 PM
 :yeah: ok but why early and not late,not arguing just that people complain about early temps too.well actually complain no matter what.just sayin
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: fastdam on January 28, 2018, 08:55:56 AM
Quote
r
I much prefer late season hunting to early. It's so hot early season. It can be 100 degrees. That's not ideal hunting temps
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Buzz2401 on January 28, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
Anyone who thinks that Modern Firearm hunters have anything over the Archery tags or season are sadly mistaken.  Modern Firearm season is a joke.  All herds have spent the last two months being chased around from other hunters, loss of legal animals that have been harvested by other hunters, no rutting activity, way more people in the woods.  Yes Modern guys do have a superior weapon but they are chasing around very skittish animals.  The success rates are low for modern hunters.  Look at the harvest rates.  Archery guys generally kill more animals per unit then modern guys even though there are way less hunters.  With the loss of antlerless hunting the archery success rates will most likely come down to the MF success rates which average around 3% for most units.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: SuperX on January 28, 2018, 10:25:24 AM
Archery guys generally kill more animals per unit then modern guys even though there are way less hunters.  With the loss of antlerless hunting the archery success rates will most likely come down to the MF success rates which average around 3% for most units.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2016/elk_general.html

no sense guessing about it, here are the actual statistics
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Rainier10 on January 28, 2018, 10:38:02 AM
Archery guys generally kill more animals per unit then modern guys even though there are way less hunters.  With the loss of antlerless hunting the archery success rates will most likely come down to the MF success rates which average around 3% for most units.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2016/elk_general.html

no sense guessing about it, here are the actual statistics
Well there you have it archery general season has an 11% success rate, move the hunt to modern permits and success rate for those guys is 40%, muzzy permits are only successful 26% of the time. Of course thatís statewide. Iíll dig into the numbers for those specific gmuís and see if the modern guys are for some reason only in the 3% success rang there.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Rainier10 on January 28, 2018, 10:51:17 AM
Modern antlerless permit hunters in 328/329 has a 49% success rate. Archers had a 15.2% rate in 328 and 13.8% in 329.

For comparison during general season modern did have a 5.2% and 9.4% success rates during general in those two units. Still better than the 3% suggested.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Fullabull on January 28, 2018, 03:43:14 PM
This state will always cater to those who spend the most money and that is the MF  group. Give archers better early season dates and take away the late season.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Buzz2401 on January 28, 2018, 07:30:24 PM
Modern antlerless permit hunters in 328/329 has a 49% success rate. Archers had a 15.2% rate in 328 and 13.8% in 329.

For comparison during general season modern did have a 5.2% and 9.4% success rates during general in those two units. Still better than the 3% suggested.


Yes that is 328/329 only now look at the rest of the Yakima units GMU335 2%, 336 1.8%, 340 2.6%, 364 1.6%, 360 4%, 346 3%, my point is that generally Archery hunters have higher success rates over modern guys.  But if we want to cherry pick numbers we can look at the over 200 antlerless animals archery guys harvested in the Clockum compared to the 160 that the modern permit guys did.  I get it it sucks that there is another loss of opportunity.  But that opportunity isn't really being shifted to modern guys.  Most units saw no increase in permits and are still less then 5% of the permits that have been historically given out.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Fullabull on January 28, 2018, 09:47:00 PM
Everything always looks equal until you figure in the permit hunts and success rates and quality.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: buglebrush on January 28, 2018, 10:02:55 PM
Modern antlerless permit hunters in 328/329 has a 49% success rate. Archers had a 15.2% rate in 328 and 13.8% in 329.

For comparison during general season modern did have a 5.2% and 9.4% success rates during general in those two units. Still better than the 3% suggested.


Yes that is 328/329 only now look at the rest of the Yakima units GMU335 2%, 336 1.8%, 340 2.6%, 364 1.6%, 360 4%, 346 3%, my point is that generally Archery hunters have higher success rates over modern guys.  But if we want to cherry pick numbers we can look at the over 200 antlerless animals archery guys harvested in the Clockum compared to the 160 that the modern permit guys did.  I get it it sucks that there is another loss of opportunity.  But that opportunity isn't really being shifted to modern guys.  Most units saw no increase in permits and are still less then 5% of the permits that have been historically given out.

Listen, you're not going to like this.  Harvest percentages are skewed; because on average archers tend to be the more skilled, hardcore, *censored*es.  Plenty of Superior hunters in modern too, but the vast majority of the road hunters, etc...  Are hunting the modern seasons. 
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Rainier10 on January 28, 2018, 10:19:05 PM
Modern antlerless permit hunters in 328/329 has a 49% success rate. Archers had a 15.2% rate in 328 and 13.8% in 329.

For comparison during general season modern did have a 5.2% and 9.4% success rates during general in those two units. Still better than the 3% suggested.


Yes that is 328/329 only now look at the rest of the Yakima units GMU335 2%, 336 1.8%, 340 2.6%, 364 1.6%, 360 4%, 346 3%, my point is that generally Archery hunters have higher success rates over modern guys.  But if we want to cherry pick numbers we can look at the over 200 antlerless animals archery guys harvested in the Clockum compared to the 160 that the modern permit guys did.  I get it it sucks that there is another loss of opportunity.  But that opportunity isn't really being shifted to modern guys.  Most units saw no increase in permits and are still less then 5% of the permits that have been historically given out.
Not cherry picking numbers. Thatís where I hunt. Thatís where they closed the early season otc cow hunt. Thatís where they doubled muzzy tags and increased the modern tags more than double. All Iím saying is if the herd is in trouble in these two units why are they giving the tags to two user groups that by the numbers for they unit have a higher success rate for special permits?

Now if they say the herd is still over capacity and that is why we are shifting permits, okay. If they say that modern guys complained and wanted more permits okay. But if they want me to believe the herd is on the decline so they pulled the early season from archers and gave away all those other permits Iím not buying that.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Oh Mah on January 28, 2018, 11:21:36 PM
Maybe they did in a sense not sure.?They said the herd was in trouble.They did not say the herd was in trouble specific to the gmu in question.There are over quota gmu's i guess and they made this move.Does that mean that they feel there is enough elk in these gmu's to warrant a bump in tags?What really is the problem?
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: MADMAX on January 29, 2018, 05:27:10 AM
somewhere else on I here I read that the closed 3-series archery general cow units were being setup that way because of cows being booted out of higher country earlier thus causing landowner complaints
anyone heard anything official along those lines ?
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Tbar on January 29, 2018, 07:13:28 AM
somewhere else on I here I read that the closed 3-series archery general cow units were being setup that way because of cows being booted out of higher country earlier thus causing landowner complaints
anyone heard anything official along those lines ?
:yeah:
Political move, not user group move. And (most) people are in the dark to where the harvest shift impacting the overall herd went.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Buzz2401 on January 29, 2018, 09:07:30 AM
Modern antlerless permit hunters in 328/329 has a 49% success rate. Archers had a 15.2% rate in 328 and 13.8% in 329.

For comparison during general season modern did have a 5.2% and 9.4% success rates during general in those two units. Still better than the 3% suggested.


Yes that is 328/329 only now look at the rest of the Yakima units GMU335 2%, 336 1.8%, 340 2.6%, 364 1.6%, 360 4%, 346 3%, my point is that generally Archery hunters have higher success rates over modern guys.  But if we want to cherry pick numbers we can look at the over 200 antlerless animals archery guys harvested in the Clockum compared to the 160 that the modern permit guys did.  I get it it sucks that there is another loss of opportunity.  But that opportunity isn't really being shifted to modern guys.  Most units saw no increase in permits and are still less then 5% of the permits that have been historically given out.

Listen, you're not going to like this.  Harvest percentages are skewed; because on average archers tend to be the more skilled, hardcore, *censored*es.  Plenty of Superior hunters in modern too, but the vast majority of the road hunters, etc...  Are hunting the modern seasons.

I partially agree with you here that archers as an average are more dedicated but they also get first chance at the animals and better seasons.  But that doesn't really change the facts that general season archers have higher success rates, of course those success rates will go down with out the antlerless animals being able to be harvested.  328\329 archers were 2.8% successful at taking spike.  That sounds low but now that archers can't take cows more will take spikes and then modern guys success rates will also go down.  Nobody wins is my point.  Like I said it sucks but just don't think its right to think that the modern guys are getting some sweet deal here.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: SuperX on January 29, 2018, 09:26:20 AM
Modern antlerless permit hunters in 328/329 has a 49% success rate. Archers had a 15.2% rate in 328 and 13.8% in 329.

For comparison during general season modern did have a 5.2% and 9.4% success rates during general in those two units. Still better than the 3% suggested.


Yes that is 328/329 only now look at the rest of the Yakima units GMU335 2%, 336 1.8%, 340 2.6%, 364 1.6%, 360 4%, 346 3%, my point is that generally Archery hunters have higher success rates over modern guys.  But if we want to cherry pick numbers we can look at the over 200 antlerless animals archery guys harvested in the Clockum compared to the 160 that the modern permit guys did.  I get it it sucks that there is another loss of opportunity.  But that opportunity isn't really being shifted to modern guys.  Most units saw no increase in permits and are still less then 5% of the permits that have been historically given out.

Listen, you're not going to like this.  Harvest percentages are skewed; because on average archers tend to be the more skilled, hardcore, *censored*es.  Plenty of Superior hunters in modern too, but the vast majority of the road hunters, etc...  Are hunting the modern seasons.

I partially agree with you here that archers as an average are more dedicated but they also get first chance at the animals and better seasons.  But that doesn't really change the facts that general season archers have higher success rates, of course those success rates will go down with out the antlerless animals being able to be harvested.  328\329 archers were 2.8% successful at taking spike.  That sounds low but now that archers can't take cows more will take spikes and then modern guys success rates will also go down.  Nobody wins is my point.  Like I said it sucks but just don't think its right to think that the modern guys are getting some sweet deal here.

I am not sure that bowhunters are more dedicated or better hunters, I know I'm better since switching, but there are some great hunters shooting rifles out there.  Success percent is harder to achieve with large numbers because there are a lot more poor hunters among that 40K of modern than in 15K of archery hunters.  Bowhunting weeds out the worst hunters I guess.

Re: spikes, I hunted late this year and saw hundreds of elk in 30-50 head herds, but I only saw a half dozen bulls and of those only 3 spikes.  I suspect that is skewed but it maps to my hunting experience.  I've only seen 2-3 spikes during early season since 2010. 

To me, this change means I will have to look into hunting out of state for early season, if I need to get an elk after that, maybe Washington for late as a last resort.  All I want to do is fill the freezer :)
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: MADMAX on January 29, 2018, 09:38:32 AM
I'm thinking of just doing the westside rain forest walks with a bow or rifle on the peninsula again
then going to do mulie out of state rifle hunt in Montana solo if I get drawn
Try for a deer and elk multi tags
Methow at the cabin with buds
giving the 300 series up
Title: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 09, 2018, 12:55:49 PM
Bowhunters - last weekend to get your comments in and your letters written.  I donít have much faith in them making changes but we have to try!

Good luck and good writing.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 09, 2018, 01:34:52 PM
I don't have much faith in them doing and changes to their proposals. I just think they are going thru the motions or WAC code. But I might be wrong.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Rainier10 on February 09, 2018, 02:25:01 PM
Just submitted my comments.

Believe me they do get heard.  The commission specifically asks about the public input.  The WDFW employee that is speaking on each rule says, "we got this much feed back in favor of this rule and this much feedback opposing this rule"  The commission then asks if there were any proposed solutions and alternatives.  The employee then says what if any of those solutions or suggestions were.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: stackemup on February 09, 2018, 06:24:49 PM
Anyone have a link for the public comments? :hello:
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 09, 2018, 10:01:22 PM
Anyone have a link for the public comments? :hello:

 https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/index.php (https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/index.php)


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: stackemup on February 10, 2018, 07:24:32 PM
Got my oppose submitted for this rule change. I hope WSB is putting something together for this. I know they got 356 re opened for us the last time they took are cows away.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 10, 2018, 09:31:33 PM
Agreed but it took 3 years last time.  We had to sit out 2010 and 2011.  2012 was a whopping 50 cow tags.  It wasnít until 2013 that we got cows back and I guess only for 5 years.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: hughjorgan on February 10, 2018, 10:39:22 PM
Last time they curtailed the cow season to build the herd back up because they said to many cows were being taken by archers they were able to open up 346 to give us opportunity. This time we arenít fairing very well. The numbers are definetly down in the Nile in the areas I have been hunting, canít really speak for the bumping unit. But we havenít taken any more cows in the past 5 seasons as a group than we did before. The only thing that changed was the WDFW giving out cow tags to other user groups...
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Calvin Rayborn on February 11, 2018, 12:03:34 AM
#metoo!  :puke:
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 12, 2018, 09:06:08 PM
Last time they curtailed the cow season to build the herd back up because they said to many cows were being taken by archers they were able to open up 346 to give us opportunity. This time we arenít fairing very well. The numbers are definetly down in the Nile in the areas I have been hunting, canít really speak for the bumping unit. But we havenít taken any more cows in the past 5 seasons as a group than we did before. The only thing that changed was the WDFW giving out cow tags to other user groups...
346 has been closed for cows since 2012.

In the late season the cows have enough room they can skirt the Nile unit. They smarten up.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: hughjorgan on February 12, 2018, 09:41:37 PM
Last time they curtailed the cow season to build the herd back up because they said to many cows were being taken by archers they were able to open up 346 to give us opportunity. This time we arenít fairing very well. The numbers are definetly down in the Nile in the areas I have been hunting, canít really speak for the bumping unit. But we havenít taken any more cows in the past 5 seasons as a group than we did before. The only thing that changed was the WDFW giving out cow tags to other user groups...
346 has been closed for cows since 2012.

its been closed to elk hunting since then unless you have a big bull tag

In the late season the cows have enough room they can skirt the Nile unit. They smarten up.

the late season in the Nile is a zoo and your only hunting local elk anyways, 346 is a waste of time to hunt during the late since the majority of the ek have moved out of the unit


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 13, 2018, 03:06:33 PM
Yep.  Why would the elk travel through 352?  They donít anymore.  The orange lined units are closed in late season.  They can go straight from bumping to Bethell and into Cowiche if they choose with only Native American hunters to dodge.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/d5a135c51c84e79b2dc262b944548dae.jpg)


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Limhangerslayer on February 13, 2018, 05:36:59 PM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.
show me the increases for us muzzleloaders in ride units?

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: 92xj on February 13, 2018, 06:14:52 PM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.
show me the increases for us muzzleloaders in ride units?

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.

Jesus, keep reading all the responses. I already said I said a mistake and misspoke. I didn't delete the comments because the flow of the thread had already taken shape. I corrected and said the cow permits are still the same number but at least you have the option to hunt cows.
What else do you need from me?
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: 92xj on February 13, 2018, 06:17:38 PM
Muzzleloaders and rifle guys.
Are you going to support the change and be for the elimination of all cow tags and no permit cow tags for archery guys or are you going to support the bow hunters and reject the elimination of all cow tags?
Will hunters stick together or divide farther?
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: jdb on February 13, 2018, 06:20:10 PM
I find it hard to believe that the elk from the bumping are migrating to the cowiche.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: jdb on February 13, 2018, 06:21:44 PM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.
show me the increases for us muzzleloaders in ride units?

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.

Jesus, keep reading all the responses. I already said I said a mistake and misspoke. I didn't delete the comments because the flow of the thread had already taken shape. I corrected and said the cow permits are still the same number but at least you have the option to hunt cows.
What else do you need from me?
you still have the option to hunt cows in the late season
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: 92xj on February 13, 2018, 06:27:04 PM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.
show me the increases for us muzzleloaders in ride units?

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.

Jesus, keep reading all the responses. I already said I said a mistake and misspoke. I didn't delete the comments because the flow of the thread had already taken shape. I corrected and said the cow permits are still the same number but at least you have the option to hunt cows.
What else do you need from me?
you still have the option to hunt cows in the late season

EDITED...
Not worth the time.

You people go support whatever you see fit and don't stick together with other hunters.
There will be a time when each group of weapons needs a helping hand from the other groups.  Will be very interested in if they get it.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Oh Mah on February 13, 2018, 06:38:48 PM
Muzzleloaders and rifle guys.
Are you going to support the change and be for the elimination of all cow tags and no permit cow tags for archery guys or are you going to support the bow hunters and reject the elimination of all cow tags?
Will hunters stick together or divide farther?
what is the big deal either way?no we don't want to pit any group against any other group.but if they rotate its fair,if they cut cow tags altogether that's fine too.rotate what you hunt with.  :tup:
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: hughjorgan on February 13, 2018, 07:40:23 PM
Whether we want to admit it or not overall population of the Yakima pmu is down significantly over the last couple years. We are still allowed late season so I don't see anything wrong with the 3-year cycle of letting the herb build back up. I also believe that should be Universal across the board and not just early archery as I think that's a pretty small Band-Aid for pretty big wound. This is coming from a guy who loves early archery season and despises having to hunt late archery. Backpacking in the sunshine and calling in Elk is the best thing ever and I'll still be doing it but I'll be looking for spikes.
show me the increases for us muzzleloaders in ride units?

So, you're for the substantial increase in cow tags for the muzzleloader and rifle guys? Your opinion is those new tags will tag out less cows than the OTC archery cow tag and build the herd back up?

Please don't take those as negatives just genuine guestions for me to gain more knowledge.

Jesus, keep reading all the responses. I already said I said a mistake and misspoke. I didn't delete the comments because the flow of the thread had already taken shape. I corrected and said the cow permits are still the same number but at least you have the option to hunt cows.
What else do you need from me?
you still have the option to hunt cows in the late season

Have you ever hunted the late season in the Nile? It is more crowded than the general rifle season in there. Way too crowded and like I said previously your hunting the local elk herd early and late.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: snake on February 13, 2018, 08:00:58 PM
I find it hard to believe that the elk from the bumping are migrating to the cowiche.
Exactly, there are plenty of cows and bulls in all those units, early and late.  Anyone who knows elk and the lay of the land knows that.  I wouldn't take advice from someone in Mukilteo about the country over here.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 13, 2018, 08:25:47 PM
Low Blow, time out time :chuckle:
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 13, 2018, 09:41:21 PM
I find it hard to believe that the elk from the bumping are migrating to the cowiche.
Exactly, there are plenty of cows and bulls in all those units, early and late.  Anyone who knows elk and the lay of the land knows that.  I wouldn't take advice from someone in Mukilteo about the country over here.
Ppffftttt.  1.  There isnít a late season in any of those units with orange stripes.

2.  I live in Mukilteo not by choice.  It takes me 3 hours to get there and trust me... I know the land.  The elk donít use the Nile like they use too because the surrounding units arenít open.   Fact.  Not fake news.


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Title: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 13, 2018, 09:53:25 PM
I find it hard to believe that the elk from the bumping are migrating to the cowiche.
Exactly, there are plenty of cows and bulls in all those units, early and late.  Anyone who knows elk and the lay of the land knows that.  I wouldn't take advice from someone in Mukilteo about the country over here.
Forgot the part on migration.  The elk will migrate out of the bumping when the snow gets too deep.  They mostly go through the Bethel unit.  Both bumping and bethel are closed early and late for cows now.  Having an open unit in the Nile is like being at the zoo watching the animals behind the fence.  Gee thanks.

Whether they get to cowiche is dependent on snow fall but you can be damn sure elk migrate out of the open rimrock into cowiche.

You folks can lay claim to semantics but these proposed changes arenít based on public scientific data that I am aware of...  did they include a presentation with herd decline somewhere?  The game management plan still shows Yakima sub herd as at objective.

Bottom line for me is that they are asking the archery community to once again bear the loss of harvest opportunity.  Why?  Because they can.  With 60%+ of the hunters as rifle hunters they carry the majority vote.  It is politics not science:

However I am really surprised they are forgoing the opportunity to sell 300 or 500 cow permits x 4 units.  That is some serious lost revenue.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Tbar on February 13, 2018, 10:04:26 PM
I find it hard to believe that the elk from the bumping are migrating to the cowiche.
Exactly, there are plenty of cows and bulls in all those units, early and late.  Anyone who knows elk and the lay of the land knows that.  I wouldn't take advice from someone in Mukilteo about the country over here.
I would take advice from someone in Mukilteo.   :chuckle:
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: snake on February 14, 2018, 06:06:35 PM
I find it hard to believe that the elk from the bumping are migrating to the cowiche.
Exactly, there are plenty of cows and bulls in all those units, early and late.  Anyone who knows elk and the lay of the land knows that.  I wouldn't take advice from someone in Mukilteo about the country over here.
Forgot the part on migration.  The elk will migrate out of the bumping when the snow gets too deep.  They mostly go through the Bethel unit.  Both bumping and bethel are closed early and late for cows now.  Having an open unit in the Nile is like being at the zoo watching the animals behind the fence.  Gee thanks.

Whether they get to cowiche is dependent on snow fall but you can be damn sure elk migrate out of the open rimrock into cowiche.

You folks can lay claim to semantics but these proposed changes arenít based on public scientific data that I am aware of...  did they include a presentation with herd decline somewhere?  The game management plan still shows Yakima sub herd as at objective.

Bottom line for me is that they are asking the archery community to once again bear the loss of harvest opportunity.  Why?  Because they can.  With 60%+ of the hunters as rifle hunters they carry the majority vote.  It is politics not science:

However I am really surprised they are forgoing the opportunity to sell 300 or 500 cow permits x 4 units.  That is some serious lost revenue.


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I am totally in agreement with you, even if your  migration info is a bit off. its all good.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: DVET253 on February 15, 2018, 04:30:31 PM
Little late to the discussion table fellas but I did voice my opposition to the changes proposed to the 300 units.

In my research I used WDFW's 2016 Trend report https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01875/wdfw01875.pdf (https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01875/wdfw01875.pdf) pages 131-135, harvest stats and on the ground observations.

The trend report linked above mentions the herd is above management objective and failed to conduct surveys in the years prior (2014, 2015) due to mild winters, along with that harvest trends seem to stay around the 11% mark.

However, from time in the hills I will say that this past season left little to desire of the state. The Chinook fire displaced a lot of humans. The influx of which was seen in the Rimrock 364 unit, a few hunters, lots of displaced ORV parties and a massive 200+ person wedding which took place in Sleepy Park Meadows (1202) opening weekend early archery. 2 full days of tunes for the whole hillside. :bash: :bash: Along with that, the free-range cattle were still there during both weeks. This obviously had an impact on herd activity, and I suspect harvest was minimal.

Shooting back over to the 356-unit, reduced access into areas above the rattlesnake bridge (buck lake, nelson butte, McDaniel lake) has been an ongoing issue for a few years now. The unit holds many elk, however, the decline in access and the amount of prescribed fires during season in and around Timberwolf mountain coupled with natural fires in the vicinity, should support the '16 trend report data stating an increase of elk densities.  Not to forget, there are often sheep that free-range out on the timberwolf side, again another species elk don't want to compete with.

To me, my experiences and observations don't seem to correlate with the proposed changes.......
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 21, 2018, 11:35:51 AM
 These guys sent in a lot of comments opposing the new elk season proposals!

They objected on grounds that the proposals are sexist.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180221/84d9ac3f799c96e7c49529b64eac81ce.jpg)


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Rainier10 on February 21, 2018, 01:59:43 PM
 :yeah:
Spike lives matter!
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 21, 2018, 02:36:17 PM
Especially as we get into the predator pit!!
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: jstone on February 21, 2018, 03:03:52 PM
These graphs remind me of my work. Our management likes to show lots a colorful graphs while they make you drink the cool aid :bash: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: et1702 on February 22, 2018, 07:46:17 AM
Little late to the discussion table fellas but I did voice my opposition to the changes proposed to the 300 units.

In my research I used WDFW's 2016 Trend report https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01875/wdfw01875.pdf (https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01875/wdfw01875.pdf) pages 131-135, harvest stats and on the ground observations.

The trend report linked above mentions the herd is above management objective and failed to conduct surveys in the years prior (2014, 2015) due to mild winters, along with that harvest trends seem to stay around the 11% mark.

However, from time in the hills I will say that this past season left little to desire of the state. The Chinook fire displaced a lot of humans. The influx of which was seen in the Rimrock 364 unit, a few hunters, lots of displaced ORV parties and a massive 200+ person wedding which took place in Sleepy Park Meadows (1202) opening weekend early archery. 2 full days of tunes for the whole hillside. :bash: :bash: Along with that, the free-range cattle were still there during both weeks. This obviously had an impact on herd activity, and I suspect harvest was minimal.

Shooting back over to the 356-unit, reduced access into areas above the rattlesnake bridge (buck lake, nelson butte, McDaniel lake) has been an ongoing issue for a few years now. The unit holds many elk, however, the decline in access and the amount of prescribed fires during season in and around Timberwolf mountain coupled with natural fires in the vicinity, should support the '16 trend report data stating an increase of elk densities.  Not to forget, there are often sheep that free-range out on the timberwolf side, again another species elk don't want to compete with.

To me, my experiences and observations don't seem to correlate with the proposed changes.......

They don't correlate what so ever, with my research or observations either.  The trend reports have suggested that the Yakima herd has been relatively stable to increasing, even thru the bad winter of 2015/2016.  As indicated by the 2016 report, the herd is estimated at 10,000+ animals.  The cow/calf and bull/cow ratios both pre and post hunting seasons are at/or within WDFW's objectives.  Someone earlier in this discussion said that they had spoken with WDFW Bio's that they trusted and Yak herd had dropped from 12K to approx. 8.5K animals.  I'm not sure where the 12K number came from, as per WDFW's own trend reports for the past several years, its been at 10 to 11K animals.  If true, it didn't help that WDFW gave out 350 damage permits for the private landowners and their buddies to slaughter our elk during the 2016/2017 winter in the Cowiche area.  In my mind, this suggests that herds are still over objective, or they could have used non-lethal means to get the elk back onto winter range.

Therefore, where is the data that shows we lost 1500 to 2500 animals in the 2016/2017 winter?  I hunted the 2017 season, and saw no drop in the number of elk in the primary unit we hunt (364), and we have multiple cameras in the woods beginning in May each year for the past 10+ years. 

Additionally, allowing archery to keep the option to harvest cows during the late season and leaving the same number of tags available to ML and MF seasons is not an equitable option.  First, most of the elk have move out of the areas they hold in during Sept and Oct.  They migrate out of the higher elevation units into the lower units (which are mostly closed).  Plus they have been chased, disrupted and shot at since early Sept., making them hole up and not move much during daylight hrs.

Bottom line, if the data does exist (to show that we lost a *censored*-load of elk in 2016/2017 winter), then ML and MF cow tags should also be removed in these Yak units.  If not, at a minimum, archery user group should also receive option of drawing cow tags in these same units for early season.  Also, tags available should be based on avg. success of each user group, not the number of users in each group, like it appears they are proposing for the Colockum unit (328/329) this year (250 rifle tag and 100 archery cow tags, WTF?).

Show me the data!  Also, yes, I have provided comments and I will be at the commission mtgs.  Personally, I believe we will never see this opportunity restored.  The real issue is number of people in this state, and constant encroachment and destruction of elk habitat, especially their winter range.  This is the reason they are offering so many cow permits in the Colockum (328/329), they want less elk, not more.  Look it up!

ET
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: dreamingbig on February 22, 2018, 08:28:11 AM
 Great comments ET.  I very much agree with your observations.  I donít think they have the data.  The changes arenít logically.  If they have the data they should present it with the proposed changes.

Thinking aloud the past few days makes me wonder if they are anticipating wolf relocation thus are preparing for the herd decline that will follow.  This is purely speculation on my behalf.


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Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Snapshot on March 05, 2018, 08:43:11 PM
...a sign of the times.
Title: Re: Any other bowhunters want to throw up?
Post by: Calvin Rayborn on March 06, 2018, 07:53:33 PM
Dang!