Hunting Washington Forum

Community => Advocacy, Agencies, Access => Topic started by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 07:48:53 PM


Advertise Here
Title: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 07:48:53 PM
NOAA/NMFS (the federal fisheries agency) has an enforcement arm which has a staff of uniformed officers/plain clothes agents which enforce federal fisheries laws. To supplement their work, the agency gives funds to every coastal state for state game wardens to enforce federal fisheries laws. The Trump administration proposes ending this program all together. In WA this comes to about a million dollars a year which fully funds three WDFW Officer positions and the vehicle/vessel maintenance, fuel, etc to deal with federal fisheries enforcement.

For those that are thinking "well I live on the eastside who cares" well there's federal fisheries enforcement issues on the eastside as well where you have critically low (and now protected) steelhead and salmon runs. When a WDFW Officer is patrolling those streams NOAA is paying for it. When WDFW Officers work halibut enforcement anywhere in WA NOAA is paying for it. When WDFW Officers roll up to SeaTac airport to check export of geoducks and other fish/shellfish NOAA is paying for it. And so on.

If those provision were to pass every coastal state would see a reduction in the number of state game wardens.

Excerpt:
"Fisheries enforcement

But those pale in comparison to the $17.8 million — more than 25 percent — cut in funding for NOAA Law Enforcement.

The entire law enforcement reduction is coming from the agency's cooperative enforcement program and will eliminate funding for joint enforcement agreements with law enforcement partners from 28 states and U.S. territories.

"You cut enforcement and you open the door to all sorts of unsavory individuals, such as Carlos Rafael," Moulton said, referencing the New Bedford fishing kingpin currently serving a 46-month federal prison sentence for rampant and long-standing circumvention of current commercial fishing management policies."

http://www.gloucestertimes.com/news/fishing_industry_news/moulton-noaa-cuts-recipe-for-disaster/article_117f0e06-57ee-554e-b74a-ff01b3c0e6d3.html
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: KFhunter on March 13, 2018, 08:14:40 PM
Convince me that more federal dollars is going to stop:  1) native over harvest and 2) too many pinnipeds

I don't think the people that this money targets (white people like me) are the culprits here.  So end the dollars and no net less.  (excuse the pun)
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: jmscon on March 13, 2018, 08:27:36 PM
At this rate it’ll be a free for all, for all parties!
And I’m sure there will be free for all parties going on as well!
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: olyguy79 on March 13, 2018, 08:34:06 PM
Right now enforcement for halibut for example is paid for by the feds. If it goes away who will pay for it? Oh ya us WA license purchasers.

It's not like if the federal contracts go away WDFW is going to say well we just aren't going to work halibut, offshore commercial fisheries, or protected salmon runs. They're still going to work it, but us WA citizens will be paying for it.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Stein on March 13, 2018, 08:34:49 PM
What federal fisheries laws do they enforce in WA.  I'm guessing it isn't me with my flasher and Coho Killer?
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 08:35:12 PM
Right now enforcement for halibut for example is paid for by the feds. If it goes away who will pay for it? Oh ya us WA license purchasers.

It's not like if the federal contracts go away WDFW is going to say well we just aren't going to work halibut, offshore commercial fisheries, or protected salmon runs. They're still going to work it, but us WA citizens will be paying for it.
100% correct. With less officers.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 08:44:27 PM
What federal fisheries laws do they enforce in WA.  I'm guessing it isn't me with my flasher and Coho Killer?
For officers to bill their time to the feds basically the officer needs to be in a place where there is a potential for a federal fisheries violation. So if your patrolling the Teanaway River when the ESA listed salmon are coming up you can bill your time to the feds even though you contacted one guy in 6 hours and he was trout fishing. If it's pink salmon season and you're contacting a hundred people fishing for pinks you can bill your time to NOAA if the ESA Chinook are running up the river at the same time.

Just a few more examples:
-Halibut are federally managed no matter where they are in WA
-Fisheries 3+ miles off the coast (mostly consists of commercial)
-Endangered Species Act (someone takes a protected salmon/steelhead/etc or if the Cowlitz opens for smelt are examples)
-Marketplace inspections (example: someone ships in halibut from another country/state and low and behold it's flounder)
-Anything in the Olympic Marine Sanctuary
-Lacey Act (interstate/international movement of illegally taken fish into/out of WA)
-Marine Mammal Protection Act (the main emphasis is on Orcas)

In 2011 (latest data I could find) WDFW Officers generated the following stats for NOAA/NMFS funded patrols:
• Contacts: 10,408
• Warnings: 1,211
• Citations: 897
• Physical/warrant arrests: 15
• Marketplace Inspections: 111
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 13, 2018, 09:20:03 PM
Right now enforcement for halibut for example is paid for by the feds. If it goes away who will pay for it? Oh ya us WA license purchasers.

It's not like if the federal contracts go away WDFW is going to say well we just aren't going to work halibut, offshore commercial fisheries, or protected salmon runs. They're still going to work it, but us WA citizens will be paying for it.
100% correct. With less officers.
would halibut include tribes too, since it is fed?  The state season is only supposed to be 3 days this year.  So, if state is 3 and tribe is a lot more, then would WDFW have to take those enforcement funds through state licenses or would tribes be pro-rated to pay their portion of enforcement days?
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: westsidehntr on March 13, 2018, 09:24:20 PM
Good! Cut all the government programs we can! It might hurt a little bit but we have to reign in the free for all spending.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 09:40:39 PM
Right now enforcement for halibut for example is paid for by the feds. If it goes away who will pay for it? Oh ya us WA license purchasers.

It's not like if the federal contracts go away WDFW is going to say well we just aren't going to work halibut, offshore commercial fisheries, or protected salmon runs. They're still going to work it, but us WA citizens will be paying for it.
100% correct. With less officers.
would halibut include tribes too, since it is fed?  The state season is only supposed to be 3 days this year.  So, if state is 3 and tribe is a lot more, then would WDFW have to take those enforcement funds through state licenses or would tribes be pro-rated to pay their portion of enforcement days?
I think we both know that answer. There's no pro-rating going on. WDFW would flip the bill.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:01:00 PM
Right now enforcement for halibut for example is paid for by the feds. If it goes away who will pay for it? Oh ya us WA license purchasers.

It's not like if the federal contracts go away WDFW is going to say well we just aren't going to work halibut, offshore commercial fisheries, or protected salmon runs. They're still going to work it, but us WA citizens will be paying for it.
100% correct. With less officers.
would halibut include tribes too, since it is fed?  The state season is only supposed to be 3 days this year.  So, if state is 3 and tribe is a lot more, then would WDFW have to take those enforcement funds through state licenses or would tribes be pro-rated to pay their portion of enforcement days?
Sorry but this is a very good question,If and i say if strongly,We get 3 days to fish halibut,after 3 days the wardens are still patrolling but who are they patrolling mostly?Not the people that only get 3 days to fish i'm sure of that.If the feds don't pay for this why should we when we are not even allowed to be in on it?
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 10:09:26 PM
Right now enforcement for halibut for example is paid for by the feds. If it goes away who will pay for it? Oh ya us WA license purchasers.

It's not like if the federal contracts go away WDFW is going to say well we just aren't going to work halibut, offshore commercial fisheries, or protected salmon runs. They're still going to work it, but us WA citizens will be paying for it.
100% correct. With less officers.
would halibut include tribes too, since it is fed?  The state season is only supposed to be 3 days this year.  So, if state is 3 and tribe is a lot more, then would WDFW have to take those enforcement funds through state licenses or would tribes be pro-rated to pay their portion of enforcement days?
Sorry but this is a very good question,If and i say if strongly,We get 3 days to fish halibut,after 3 days the wardens are still patrolling but who are they patrolling mostly?Not the people that only get 3 days to fish i'm sure of that.If the feds don't pay for this why should we when we are not even allowed to be in on it?
Ever heard of people taking halibut during closed season?

WDFW is mandated to protect the resources of the state, doesn't matter if it's a resource also managed by the feds. USFWS doesn't give states money to enforce waterfowl regs even though waterfowl are federally managed, should WDFW Officers not enforce waterfowl regs since they don't get paid for it?
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:14:24 PM
yep,so.If natives are for the most part the ones fishing it then they can patrol it.if they are not gonna get any penalty from the state then the state doesn't need to be out patrolling for it.the feds pay or no patrolling.you don't like it change the rules.You can't seriously expect the hunters and fishers of this state to worry to much about pay or how hard the wardens have to work when we get a warden that steals 80k in fuel before finally getting caught do you?
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: olyguy79 on March 13, 2018, 10:17:09 PM
yep,so.If natives are for the most part the ones fishing it then they can patrol it.if they are not gonna get any penalty from the state then the state doesn't need to be out patrolling for it.the feds pay or no patrolling.you don't like it change the rules.
Maybe you should "change the rules" (actually a law). WDFW is mandated to protect the resources, which apparently you don't like if the feds aren't paying. Until the law changes, WDFW will be there.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Stein on March 13, 2018, 10:20:01 PM
When they delay the halibut seasons so long as they do, they would be wasting their time trying to find sport fishers over the limit. My point is the feds aren't really patrolling sport fisherman.  Take that for what it is worth, just an observation.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
been trying to change the laws for over 30 years,if they don't care i don't care anymore about the fisheries.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:24:31 PM
lets do this differently,Native fisherman are fed. managed by enforcement not by wdfw wardens right?wdfw wardens don't have authority over the native fishers right?how many sport fishers get caught in a year over limit halibut?
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 10:24:42 PM
When they delay the halibut seasons so long as they do, they would be wasting their time trying to find sport fishers over the limit. My point is the feds aren't really patrolling sport fisherman.  Take that for what it is worth, just an observation.
The reason is because they pay the states to do the patrol work. You have federal fisheries, or protected fish in just about every county in the state yet less than 10 NOAA/NMFS Officers/Agents in WA, compared to about 130 WDFW Officers. Who would provide better coverage? Of course the state.

If you've ever been checked while fishing on a river or during halibut season the WDFW Officer is likely there using NOAA funds. If WDFW Officers had to wear NOAA uniforms while they were on "noaa time" you'd see how much federal fisheries enforcement they actually do.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:27:51 PM
SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A PRETTY GOOD INCENTIVE FOR THE STATE TO START FINING ILLEGAL HUNTING AND FISHING ACTIVITIES ACCORDINGLY INSTEAD OF A SLAP ON THE WRIST FOR THE STEALING OF OUR RESOURCES.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 10:29:36 PM
lets do this differently,Native fisherman are fed. managed by enforcement not by wdfw wardens right?wdfw wardens don't have authority over the native fishers right?how many sport fishers get caught in a year over limit halibut?
If a tribal member violates federal laws/regs then yes WDFW Officers do have authority over them as WDFW Officers are also deputized USFWS & NOAA Officers.

To your second questions this was WDFWs report to the International Pacific Halibut Commission for the 2017 season:

WDFW committed 16 commissioned staff toward halibut enforcement, for a total of 763 hours.  Their at‐sea activities encompassed: 555 at‐sea hours (370 at‐sea personnel hours and 185 at‐sea long‐range vessel hours). Their dockside activities encompassed 208 hours.  WDFW approximate funding applied toward halibut enforcement and management was $56,420.10 ($44,502.95 at‐sea operations and $11,917.15 for land‐based operations).  WDFW Officers accomplished 2,095 recreational contacts and 109 commercial contacts (including tribal), issued 201 warnings and 46 citations.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 10:30:27 PM
SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A PRETTY GOOD INCENTIVE FOR THE STATE TO START FINING ILLEGAL HUNTING AND FISHING ACTIVITIES ACCORDINGLY INSTEAD OF A SLAP ON THE WRIST FOR THE STEALING OF OUR RESOURCES.
CONTACT YOUR COUNTY JUDGE AND PROSECUTOR. WDFW DOESNT IMPOSE THE PENALTIES, YOUR COUNTY JUDGE AND PROSECUTORS DO.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: olyguy79 on March 13, 2018, 10:31:01 PM
SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A PRETTY GOOD INCENTIVE FOR THE STATE TO START FINING ILLEGAL HUNTING AND FISHING ACTIVITIES ACCORDINGLY INSTEAD OF A SLAP ON THE WRIST FOR THE STEALING OF OUR RESOURCES.
CONTACT YOUR COUNTY JUDGE AND PROSECUTOR. WDFW DOESNT IMPOSE THE PENALTIES, YOUR COUNTY JUDGE AND PROSECUTORS DO.
:yeah:
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:32:01 PM
lets do this differently,Native fisherman are fed. managed by enforcement not by wdfw wardens right?wdfw wardens don't have authority over the native fishers right?how many sport fishers get caught in a year over limit halibut?
If a tribal member violates federal laws/regs then yes WDFW Officers do have authority over them as WDFW Officers are also deputized USFWS & NOAA Officers.

To your second questions this was WDFWs report to the International Pacific Halibut Commission for the 2017 season:

WDFW committed 16 commissioned staff toward halibut enforcement, for a total of 763 hours.  Their at‐sea activities encompassed: 555 at‐sea hours (370 at‐sea personnel hours and 185 at‐sea long‐range vessel hours). Their dockside activities encompassed 208 hours.  WDFW approximate funding applied toward halibut enforcement and management was $56,420.10 ($44,502.95 at‐sea operations and $11,917.15 for land‐based operations).  WDFW Officers accomplished 2,095 recreational contacts and 109 commercial contacts (including tribal), issued 201 warnings and 46 citations.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:34:09 PM
SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A PRETTY GOOD INCENTIVE FOR THE STATE TO START FINING ILLEGAL HUNTING AND FISHING ACTIVITIES ACCORDINGLY INSTEAD OF A SLAP ON THE WRIST FOR THE STEALING OF OUR RESOURCES.
CONTACT YOUR COUNTY JUDGE AND PROSECUTOR. WDFW DOESNT IMPOSE THE PENALTIES, YOUR COUNTY JUDGE AND PROSECUTORS DO.
Olyguy79 and bigtex I have as i'm sure 1000's of others have its not in the prosecutors hands or the judges as you say,the state is the one that can impose limits on fines.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 10:36:44 PM
What federal fisheries laws do they enforce in WA.  I'm guessing it isn't me with my flasher and Coho Killer?
For officers to bill their time to the feds basically the officer needs to be in a place where there is a potential for a federal fisheries violation. So if your patrolling the Teanaway River when the ESA listed salmon are coming up you can bill your time to the feds even though you contacted one guy in 6 hours and he was trout fishing. If it's pink salmon season and you're contacting a hundred people fishing for pinks you can bill your time to NOAA if the ESA Chinook are running up the river at the same time.

Just a few more examples:
-Halibut are federally managed no matter where they are in WA
-Fisheries 3+ miles off the coast (mostly consists of commercial)
-Endangered Species Act (someone takes a protected salmon/steelhead/etc or if the Cowlitz opens for smelt are examples)
-Marketplace inspections (example: someone ships in halibut from another country/state and low and behold it's flounder)
-Anything in the Olympic Marine Sanctuary
-Lacey Act (interstate/international movement of illegally taken fish into/out of WA)
-Marine Mammal Protection Act (the main emphasis is on Orcas)

In 2011 (latest data I could find) WDFW Officers generated the following stats for NOAA/NMFS funded patrols:
• Contacts: 10,408
• Warnings: 1,211
• Citations: 897
• Physical/warrant arrests: 15
• Marketplace Inspections: 111
To go even further. In 2011 WDFW Officers worked 12,533 on federal fisheries work statewide. WDFW Officers work 171 hours a month. So just how much is 12,533 hours for WDFW? That would equate to a little over 6 officers working federal fisheries enforcement everyday for an entire year.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 10:41:56 PM
SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A PRETTY GOOD INCENTIVE FOR THE STATE TO START FINING ILLEGAL HUNTING AND FISHING ACTIVITIES ACCORDINGLY INSTEAD OF A SLAP ON THE WRIST FOR THE STEALING OF OUR RESOURCES.
CONTACT YOUR COUNTY JUDGE AND PROSECUTOR. WDFW DOESNT IMPOSE THE PENALTIES, YOUR COUNTY JUDGE AND PROSECUTORS DO.
Olyguy79 and bigtex I have as i'm sure 1000's of others have its not in the prosecutors hands or the judges as you say,the state is the one that can impose limits on fines.
The legislature sets the maximum penalty, but the prosecutor and judge impose the penalty.

If a guy poaches a freaking doe they face up to 364 days in jail, a $5,000 criminal fine, and a $2,000 civil fine. That's what the state laws. So if a judge imposes a $500 fine blame the judge not the law.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:45:48 PM
I'm saying the legislature needs to impose min. fines for the crimes,take that authority away from the judges.The state law is fine with its max,how do you like working several hours on a case costing the state 1000's over a freaking doe so the poacher gets a small fine?

You are arguing for the wrong results
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 10:47:05 PM
I'm saying the legislature needs to impose min. fines for the crimes,take that authority away from the judges.The state law is fine with its max,how do you like working several hours on a case costing the state 1000's over a freaking doe so the poacher gets a small fine?

You are arguing for the wrong results
When you actually explain it like that then yes I agree.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: KFhunter on March 13, 2018, 10:48:19 PM
but it's irrelevant to the topic of feds withdrawing funds
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:48:58 PM
I will take that,I admit sometimes i'm not real clear but that is what i meant the whole time.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 10:50:59 PM
but it's irrelevant to the topic of feds withdrawing funds
the feds can withdraw all they want if the state was fining accordingly.if it cost the state 2 million a year to run,(way more just an example)then the state needs to match that in fines from poachers and other violations plus licenses and fees pertaining to WDFW.That's business 101.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 10:58:19 PM
but it's irrelevant to the topic of feds withdrawing funds
the feds can withdraw all they want if the state was fining accordingly.if it cost the state 2 million a year to run,(way more just an example)then the state needs to match that in fines from poachers and other violations plus licenses and fees pertaining to WDFW.That's business 101.
The fines go to the county coffers and not back to WDFW.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 11:01:48 PM
All of it?If so still the county that makes the money don't need as much from the state.The counties that make the most have the most problems and can get more enforcement.There just has to be a way to make it all work at a state level somehow.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 11:03:38 PM
All of it?
99% of it. The only thing that doesn't are civil fines related to big game poaching. All criminal fines go to the county.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 11:06:21 PM
Poaching is poaching,I wish all poaching was penalized the same.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Scvette on March 13, 2018, 11:28:21 PM
There's a lot of waste at noaa enforcement,a few years ago there was an article written about the waste. My numbers aren't correct but there was something like 3-4 vehicles for every agent working,there was a 80' luxury vessel bought and called an enforcement vessel.  It needs to be cleaned up.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bearpaw on March 13, 2018, 11:41:39 PM
There's a lot of waste at noaa enforcement,a few years ago there was an article written about the waste. My numbers aren't correct but there was something like 3-4 vehicles for every agent working,there was a 80' luxury vessel bought and called an enforcement vessel.  It needs to be cleaned up.

Drive by any forest service district office, (or any other government office) there will be a huge amount of vehicles and people employed there doing something? Mostly figuring out ways to keep the public from using the forest! For some reason they can't even grade a road in the forest anymore, if there is a washout they just shut down the road indefinitely. I'm all for cleaning up a lot of these agencies, for once someone needs to cut their budgets and make them learn to live within the financial means of the United States like the rest of us have had to do!  DRAIN THE SWAMP! :twocents:
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 11:52:05 PM
There's a lot of waste at noaa enforcement,a few years ago there was an article written about the waste. My numbers aren't correct but there was something like 3-4 vehicles for every agent working,there was a 80' luxury vessel bought and called an enforcement vessel.  It needs to be cleaned up.
Drive by any forest service district office, (or any other government office) there will be a huge amount of vehicles and people employed there doing something? Mostly figuring out ways to keep the public from using the forest! For some reason they can't even grade a road in the forest anymore, if there is a washout they just shut down the road indefinitely. I'm all for cleaning up a lot of these agencies, for once someone needs to cut their budgets and make them learn to live within the financial means of the United States like the rest of us have had to do!  DRAIN THE SWAMP! :twocents:
I hope you realize the local "ground pounders" aren't the ones who are "figuring out ways to keep the public from using the forest!" in fact most politicians who speak out against land management agencies say its not the local employees but rather those at HQ.

In terms of Trump's proposed budge for the USFS, the biggest cuts are in the portion of the USFS we don't think about. Such as the state & private forestry programs, research, and maintenance. The actual "National Forest System" portion of the USFS is looking pretty healthy under the Trump budget.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 13, 2018, 11:53:18 PM
There's a lot of waste at noaa enforcement,a few years ago there was an article written about the waste. My numbers aren't correct but there was something like 3-4 vehicles for every agent working,there was a 80' luxury vessel bought and called an enforcement vessel.  It needs to be cleaned up.
That was almost 10 years ago and it's been cleaned up. Three directors later, almost an entirely new workforce and a smaller budget from Congress. They got slapped pretty hard.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: olyguy79 on March 13, 2018, 11:55:34 PM
There's a lot of waste at noaa enforcement,a few years ago there was an article written about the waste. My numbers aren't correct but there was something like 3-4 vehicles for every agent working,there was a 80' luxury vessel bought and called an enforcement vessel.  It needs to be cleaned up.
Drive by any forest service district office, (or any other government office) there will be a huge amount of vehicles and people employed there doing something? Mostly figuring out ways to keep the public from using the forest! For some reason they can't even grade a road in the forest anymore, if there is a washout they just shut down the road indefinitely. I'm all for cleaning up a lot of these agencies, for once someone needs to cut their budgets and make them learn to live within the financial means of the United States like the rest of us have had to do!  DRAIN THE SWAMP! :twocents:
I hope you realize the local "ground pounders" aren't the ones who are "figuring out ways to keep the public from using the forest!" in fact most politicians who speak out against land management agencies say its not the local employees but rather those at HQ.
:yeah:

Funny thing is there are fewer government workers employed by the fed land management agencies the past 5 years then there has been for decades. Blame declining budgets, budgets being diverted to wildfires, and other reasons as the cause.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bearpaw on March 14, 2018, 01:43:21 AM
Fire fighters aren't government employees? What agency stopped logging which resulted in over aged forests?

During the last decade many Americans have lost jobs, taken pay cuts, reduced their lifestyles, lost their business, lost their retirements, lost their homes, lost their health insurance, and have barely made ends meet. At the same time politicians and government workers have experienced pay increases and free healthcare. A little correction is not unreasonable. I doubt we'll see any full scale correction, but many people are going to be happy to see any correction that happens, even if it may not seem fair to some people. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger telling you the way it is!  :twocents:
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 14, 2018, 05:17:08 AM
Fire fighters aren't government employees? What agency stopped logging which resulted in over aged forests?

During the last decade many Americans have lost jobs, taken pay cuts, reduced their lifestyles, lost their business, lost their retirements, lost their homes, lost their health insurance, and have barely made ends meet. At the same time politicians and government workers have experienced pay increases and free healthcare. A little correction is not unreasonable. I doubt we'll see any full scale correction, but many people are going to be happy to see any correction that happens, even if it may not seem fair to some people. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger telling you the way it is!  :twocents:
Free health care for fed employees.  I must have missed that day because I haven't seen it.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Fl0und3rz on March 14, 2018, 06:00:02 AM
"In WA this comes to about a million dollars a year which fully funds three WDFW Officer positions and the vehicle/vessel maintenance, fuel, etc to deal with federal fisheries enforcement."

I don't think I am the only one surprised to learn here that for $1 million, the government only gets 3 guys and a boat for our money.

At that rate, I am inclined to say privatize it and incentivize citizen co-enforcement of it.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 14, 2018, 07:40:23 AM
Fire fighters aren't government employees? What agency stopped logging which resulted in over aged forests?

During the last decade many Americans have lost jobs, taken pay cuts, reduced their lifestyles, lost their business, lost their retirements, lost their homes, lost their health insurance, and have barely made ends meet. At the same time politicians and government workers have experienced pay increases and free healthcare. A little correction is not unreasonable. I doubt we'll see any full scale correction, but many people are going to be happy to see any correction that happens, even if it may not seem fair to some people. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger telling you the way it is!  :twocents:
Free health care for fed employees.  I must have missed that day because I haven't seen it.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
:yeah:
#fakenews

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 14, 2018, 07:41:22 AM
"In WA this comes to about a million dollars a year which fully funds three WDFW Officer positions and the vehicle/vessel maintenance, fuel, etc to deal with federal fisheries enforcement."

I don't think I am the only one surprised to learn here that for $1 million, the government only gets 3 guys and a boat for our money.

At that rate, I am inclined to say privatize it and incentivize citizen co-enforcement of it.
Where did I say A boat?

You apparently missed where I said it equated to 6 officers... but fully funded 3 positions

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 14, 2018, 07:45:14 AM


Fire fighters aren't government employees? What agency stopped logging which resulted in over aged forests?

During the last decade many Americans have lost jobs, taken pay cuts, reduced their lifestyles, lost their business, lost their retirements, lost their homes, lost their health insurance, and have barely made ends meet. At the same time politicians and government workers have experienced pay increases and free healthcare. A little correction is not unreasonable. I doubt we'll see any full scale correction, but many people are going to be happy to see any correction that happens, even if it may not seem fair to some people. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger telling you the way it is!  :twocents:

Fed salaries have actually stayed stagnant over the past decade. There have been several years of no pay increases and when it does happen, it's a whopping 1%.

The number of federal firefighters are actually down. That's why the feds have to ask states for help more and more.

Free insurance? Well look for yourself on the OPM website.

I'm not "shooting the messenger" I'm saying what you're saying is completely false.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: olyguy79 on March 14, 2018, 07:48:23 AM


Fire fighters aren't government employees? What agency stopped logging which resulted in over aged forests?

During the last decade many Americans have lost jobs, taken pay cuts, reduced their lifestyles, lost their business, lost their retirements, lost their homes, lost their health insurance, and have barely made ends meet. At the same time politicians and government workers have experienced pay increases and free healthcare. A little correction is not unreasonable. I doubt we'll see any full scale correction, but many people are going to be happy to see any correction that happens, even if it may not seem fair to some people. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger telling you the way it is!  :twocents:

Fed salaries have actually stayed stagnant over the past decade. There have been several years of no pay increases and when it does happen, it's a whopping 1%.

The number of federal firefighters are actually down. That's why the feds have to ask states for help more and more.

Free insurance? Well look for yourself on the OPM website.

I'm not "shooting the messenger" I'm saying what you're saying is completely false.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
:yeah:

Want a good paying govt job? Work for the local govt. They typically pay better than the feds. Also easier to get hired with locals as the feds are constantly going thru hiring freezes, budget cuts, etc.

Some people need to actually do research and not believe everything heard thru their ears.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Fl0und3rz on March 14, 2018, 08:11:43 AM
"In WA this comes to about a million dollars a year which fully funds three WDFW Officer positions and the vehicle/vessel maintenance, fuel, etc to deal with federal fisheries enforcement."

I don't think I am the only one surprised to learn here that for $1 million, the government only gets 3 guys and a boat for our money.

At that rate, I am inclined to say privatize it and incentivize citizen co-enforcement of it.
Where did I say A boat?

You apparently missed where I said it equated to 6 officers... but fully funded 3 positions

So three people and half the costs for a fleet of vehicles/vessels for a crew of six?

Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: buglebrush on March 14, 2018, 08:25:34 AM
I could never summon any sympathy or support for wdfw until they start actually managing properly. 
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 14, 2018, 08:30:34 AM
"In WA this comes to about a million dollars a year which fully funds three WDFW Officer positions and the vehicle/vessel maintenance, fuel, etc to deal with federal fisheries enforcement."

I don't think I am the only one surprised to learn here that for $1 million, the government only gets 3 guys and a boat for our money.

At that rate, I am inclined to say privatize it and incentivize citizen co-enforcement of it.
Where did I say A boat?
You apparently missed where I said it equated to 6 officers... but fully funded 3 positions
So three people and half the costs for a fleet of vehicles/vessels for a crew of six?

Don't hide the ball.
Funding Type                 Hours                     Cost ($)
Dockside Personnel        9,167                     475,455
At-sea Personnel           1,964                     104,687
Vessel                          982                        98,154
Outreach                     100                         5,100
Administrative              320                          10,880
Indirect/Overhead          N/A                        239,125
Equipment                    N/A                        156,895
Total:                         12,533                    $1,090,256

When you calculate the categories for which there are hours by the total costs for those categories you come out to about $55 an hour, which includes salary and benefits.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: Fl0und3rz on March 14, 2018, 09:54:02 AM
Thank you for the informed response and my apologies for the short, terse response.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bearpaw on March 15, 2018, 04:41:06 PM


Fire fighters aren't government employees? What agency stopped logging which resulted in over aged forests?

During the last decade many Americans have lost jobs, taken pay cuts, reduced their lifestyles, lost their business, lost their retirements, lost their homes, lost their health insurance, and have barely made ends meet. At the same time politicians and government workers have experienced pay increases and free healthcare. A little correction is not unreasonable. I doubt we'll see any full scale correction, but many people are going to be happy to see any correction that happens, even if it may not seem fair to some people. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger telling you the way it is!  :twocents:

Fed salaries have actually stayed stagnant over the past decade. There have been several years of no pay increases and when it does happen, it's a whopping 1%.

The number of federal firefighters are actually down. That's why the feds have to ask states for help more and more.

Free insurance? Well look for yourself on the OPM website.

I'm not "shooting the messenger" I'm saying what you're saying is completely false.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

1% gain a few years is better than the 70% loss I took in one year. I know others who lost their businesses or jobs entirely and lots of jobs pay less or more often certain positions were eliminated to create lower paying positions. While you may feel slighted, you should feel blessed, government workers have fared pretty well! I always tell people if you can get on a full time job with the "G" do it.
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 15, 2018, 05:55:53 PM
Fire fighters aren't government employees? What agency stopped logging which resulted in over aged forests?

During the last decade many Americans have lost jobs, taken pay cuts, reduced their lifestyles, lost their business, lost their retirements, lost their homes, lost their health insurance, and have barely made ends meet. At the same time politicians and government workers have experienced pay increases and free healthcare. A little correction is not unreasonable. I doubt we'll see any full scale correction, but many people are going to be happy to see any correction that happens, even if it may not seem fair to some people. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger telling you the way it is!  :twocents:

Fed salaries have actually stayed stagnant over the past decade. There have been several years of no pay increases and when it does happen, it's a whopping 1%.

The number of federal firefighters are actually down. That's why the feds have to ask states for help more and more.

Free insurance? Well look for yourself on the OPM website.

I'm not "shooting the messenger" I'm saying what you're saying is completely false.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
1% gain a few years is better than the 70% loss I took in one year. I know others who lost their businesses or jobs entirely and lots of jobs pay less or more often certain positions were eliminated to create lower paying positions. While you may feel slighted, you should feel blessed, government workers have fared pretty well! I always tell people if you can get on a full time job with the "G" do it.
You can always find people who do better or who do worse than others.

Want to make a ton of money? Don't work for the feds quite simply. Because unless you get high up, you'll be sitting at about the average US income. If someone wanted to pursue a biology career asked my advice I'd tell them if they wanted to make a lot of money go into the private sector, if you can't get on there then go state, and if not there go federal, especially if they live in the western US. Unfortunately there are some professions where there isn't a private sector option, such as law enforcement. My family is full of state, federal, local and private employees, the highest earners are the private employees.

We all make a choices in life in our career aspirations. You can't fault a guy for going into the private sector or the public sector. Yet for some reason govt employees seem to always be the target. Where's all the people saying Boeing engineers make too much $?
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: olyguy79 on March 15, 2018, 05:57:11 PM
Fire fighters aren't government employees? What agency stopped logging which resulted in over aged forests?

During the last decade many Americans have lost jobs, taken pay cuts, reduced their lifestyles, lost their business, lost their retirements, lost their homes, lost their health insurance, and have barely made ends meet. At the same time politicians and government workers have experienced pay increases and free healthcare. A little correction is not unreasonable. I doubt we'll see any full scale correction, but many people are going to be happy to see any correction that happens, even if it may not seem fair to some people. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger telling you the way it is!  :twocents:

Fed salaries have actually stayed stagnant over the past decade. There have been several years of no pay increases and when it does happen, it's a whopping 1%.

The number of federal firefighters are actually down. That's why the feds have to ask states for help more and more.

Free insurance? Well look for yourself on the OPM website.

I'm not "shooting the messenger" I'm saying what you're saying is completely false.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
1% gain a few years is better than the 70% loss I took in one year. I know others who lost their businesses or jobs entirely and lots of jobs pay less or more often certain positions were eliminated to create lower paying positions. While you may feel slighted, you should feel blessed, government workers have fared pretty well! I always tell people if you can get on a full time job with the "G" do it.
You can always find people who do better or who do worse than others.

Want to make a ton of money? Don't work for the feds quite simply. Because unless you get high up, you'll be sitting at about the average US income. If someone wanted to pursue a biology career asked my advice I'd tell them if they wanted to make a lot of money go into the private sector, if you can't get on there then go state, and if not there go federal, especially if they live in the western US. Unfortunately there are some professions where there isn't a private sector option, such as law enforcement. My family is full of state, federal, local and private employees, the highest earners are the private employees.

We all make a choices in life in our career aspirations. You can't fault a guy for going into the private sector or the public sector. Yet for some reason govt employees seem to always be the target. Where's all the people saying Boeing engineers make too much $?
My daughter-in-law doubled her pay when she went from a full-time bio with Washington DNR to a private entity, with half the responsibilities. The local fed bio made less then her at DNR.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: KFhunter on March 15, 2018, 05:57:38 PM
Thanks for putting up with us BT


I think if NOAA is cleaned up, and other federal money is going to enforcement and not being wasted then I'm for it.  I think all of us at HW want to see better, more efficient enforcement, and if these dollars are withheld they'll scavenge money from east side big game enforcement. 
Title: Re: Proposed Federal/Trump Budget Would Cut Game Wardens in Coastal States
Post by: bigtex on March 15, 2018, 06:01:04 PM
Thanks for putting up with us BT


I think if NOAA is cleaned up, and other federal money is going to enforcement and not being wasted then I'm for it.  I think all of us at HW want to see better, more efficient enforcement, and if these dollars are withheld they'll scavenge money from east side big game enforcement.
Not a problem.

We've already seen in recent years where no budget cuts have occurred positions in western WA that were historically "land" wardens suddenly turn into marine enforcement positions.

The "land" patrol has been suffering on both sides of the state.
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal