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Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: Practical Approach on November 08, 2010, 09:34:58 AM


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Title: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Practical Approach on November 08, 2010, 09:34:58 AM
I spend several days scouting elk on the westside this past week.  Found a couple of nice herds with bulls in them and was pretty stoked.  This was on Rayonier and Green Crow properties, which were all gated.  My hunting buddy and I spend hours riding and pushing bikes all over the hills scouting for elk to find the ones we did.  On the day before the season opened an Gabe Regard and a crony of his started using his keys to get behind the gates and drove all over the country side scouting for elk.  He wasn't working in the area, just scouting.  Well I was sitting on a elk herd watching them for the day and waiting for them to bed for the evening.  Well low in behold Mr. Regard came driving in on the herd that I was watching.  At first they just stopped the truck and glassed them for a while.  So I stepped out of my hiding spot and let them know I was there watching the elk.  They drove past me without acknowledging I was there and drove right into the herd of elk spooking them out of the area.  This crap pisses me off.  So now a perfectly laid plan is wasted.  

Then to top it off my buddy radios me telling me that there is another truck driving around scouting for elk as well. He is an employee of one of the timber companies and he has permission to hunt using his truck.  How is a guy to compete with that bullsnot.  These two timber companies disgust me with their lack of enforcement and key management.  I have seen in other forums where Tribes are considered poachers for not hunting by the same rules, well if this same argument applies, then these fat lazy jerks are poachers as well.

If the gates are closed forvehicle access, then they are closed for everyone.  No privileges.  I don't care who you are or who you work for.  If this ever happens to me again and I catch up to the truck parked somewhere, they will be buying a new set of tires for sure.  You have to be a pretty sorry sort of person to feel like you are owed the right to drive around shooting up all of the elk herds while others are abiding by the rules and working there asses off to do it.  




Anyone else run into this type of crap?
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Hunters!
Post by: WDFW-SUX on November 08, 2010, 09:38:05 AM
Thats how it goes get used to it.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Hunters!
Post by: jackelope on November 08, 2010, 09:39:30 AM
Sorry to hear that happened.

It seems to me that the title of this thread could use some editing. Sounds like you're lumping Westside elk hunters all into the same group when 2 guys with keys screwed it up for you.
 :dunno:
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Hunters!
Post by: Practical Approach on November 08, 2010, 09:40:26 AM
Thats how it goes get used to it.
Screw that, I don't get used to that crap I go other places. I learn my lessons pretty quick. Well usually.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Hunters!
Post by: bucklucky on November 08, 2010, 09:42:04 AM
While I agree with some of your points, it doesnt give you the right to do damage to another persons property. So I disagree with you wanting to pop some tires ........ but I do joke about doing it  :chuckle:

   I have alot of areas that I dont hunt anymore because of employees having the right to drive in behind locked gates, it does suck putting miles on your feet and having a couple rigs drive right by all decked out in camo . What are ya going to do? Find somewhere else to hunt or kill the critters the guys driving in arent seeing.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Hunters!
Post by: Practical Approach on November 08, 2010, 09:48:17 AM
While I agree with some of your points, it doesnt give you the right to do damage to another persons property. So I disagree with you wanting to pop some tires ........ but I do joke about doing it  :chuckle:

   I have alot of areas that I dont hunt anymore because of employees having the right to drive in behind locked gates, it does suck putting miles on your feet and having a couple rigs drive right by all decked out in camo . What are ya going to do? Find somewhere else to hunt or kill the critters the guys driving in arent seeing.
More than likely I will find new places to hunt.  I also hate driving elk to roadhunters.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Hunters!
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 08, 2010, 09:55:19 AM
I try and do my scouting to find areas away from roads, for the reasons you mentioned.  The other evening I was surprised how many gates I saw opened out near Forks.  The other 50 weeks of the year they are locked shut.  I also try to find multiple places so I have my backup spot, and the spots where I can take buddies.  But I understand about having a good plan just ruined with no way to really improvise.....I just consider myself lucky when other people don't interfere with my hunting.
Title: Disgusted with 2 people with keys to locked gates, not all Westside Elk Hunters!
Post by: Fl0und3rz on November 08, 2010, 09:55:38 AM
FIFY
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Hunters!
Post by: chrisb on November 08, 2010, 10:00:12 AM
This is why i don't elk hunt, and why i stay away from mod firearms seasons.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: steen on November 08, 2010, 11:33:27 AM
Talk to the game warden, it may be worth 10 bonus points!
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Alan K on November 08, 2010, 11:46:50 AM
Employee access for hunting is just a perk to the job for most timber companies.  Just like someone working at Kinko's will get to make X amount of free copies, or how people working at most retail jobs get a discount on items purchased at the store.  I suppose if you want everyone to be on the same playing field hunt state land or something.  :dunno:

Or like JimmyHoffa said, get away from the roads.  I bike into the Vail Tree Farm during the week and bump into employees hunting nearly every time.  The only difference between they and I are that I get in the timber.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: fair-chase on November 08, 2010, 12:21:41 PM
 :bash: Your on private property. Be thankful your allowed to hunt it instead of complaining about how the owners dictate usage.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Stickerbush on November 08, 2010, 12:22:50 PM
Seems like one of the downsides of hunting private forest land. But thats just it they can do what they want with it. I would really be pissed if this was going on on public land, everyone should have a level playing field out there  :twocents:
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: BLKBEARKLR on November 08, 2010, 12:26:19 PM
I dont see a problem here, be glad the timber company is even letting you hunt there. If they have permission and they are allowed to use the truck why the heck would you not?

If you had 10,000 acres of your very own private land you going to pedal your bicycle around?

It is a privately owned forest, like said if you want everyone to play by the same rules than hunt public land only.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Jerome on November 08, 2010, 12:32:41 PM
I dont see a problem here, be glad the timber company is even letting you hunt there. If they have permission and they are allowed to use the truck why the heck would you not?

If you had 10,000 acres of your very own private land you going to pedal your bicycle around?

It is a privately owned forest, like said if you want everyone to play by the same rules than hunt public land only.
Exactly
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Curly on November 08, 2010, 12:34:44 PM
I dont see a problem here, be glad the timber company is even letting you hunt there. If they have permission and they are allowed to use the truck why the heck would you not?

If you had 10,000 acres of your very own private land you going to pedal your bicycle around?

It is a privately owned forest, like said if you want everyone to play by the same rules than hunt public land only.
Exactly

+2
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Buckrub on November 08, 2010, 01:06:55 PM
If I may... Hunting on private timber company land doesn't give anyone an exclusive....
Knowing hunters will be there and where the elk are going is what hunting is all about... there are no secrets.
It doesn't seem fair but a good hunter can outfox the fox.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: oneezreiter on November 08, 2010, 01:17:17 PM
Hard to get pissed about someone getting permission from the owner to use a truck.  Just be thankful that they still allow anyone access.  They could shut it down.  It is a prick maneuver to drive through the herd and spook it.  I have a much harder time with that then them using trucks.  every job has some kind of perk.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: garyltbh on November 08, 2010, 04:00:43 PM
Its not always bad one of thoes guys with a key packed out a bull my buddy shot 8 miles behind a gate sure saved him alot of packing. just because they have the right to use there truck dosnt make them bad guys.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Practical Approach on November 09, 2010, 05:58:46 AM
:bash: Your on private property. Be thankful your allowed to hunt it instead of complaining about how the owners dictate usage.
My hundred ting season is valued to me.  It is short enough as it is.  If the private land owner makes the rules, I expect everyone to follow them.  If there is a unfair buddy system going on, then I will hunt elsewhere.  I would just like to know about it ahead of time. 
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Practical Approach on November 09, 2010, 06:01:49 AM
I dont see a problem here, be glad the timber company is even letting you hunt there. If they have permission and they are allowed to use the truck why the heck would you not?

If you had 10,000 acres of your very own private land you going to pedal your bicycle around?

It is a privately owned forest, like said if you want everyone to play by the same rules than hunt public land only.
Exactly
I didn't realize there were so many road hunters out there.  I don't think road hunters would ever see the point. 
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Dr. Death on November 09, 2010, 06:15:41 AM
Its not always bad one of thoes guys with a key packed out a bull my buddy shot 8 miles behind a gate sure saved him alot of packing. just because they have the right to use there truck dosnt make them bad guys.

Ditto on that, Shot my bull 6 miles back in this year, had a company guy drive by use and give us a ride out, sure saved us alot of time and wear and tear...

Yeah, it can be frustrating, but the it's going to happen...had a security guard screw me up this year prior to getting my elk, was within 60 yards of a herd feeding in a clearcut, when he drives through the middle of it going somewhere...can't get mad at him, just doing his job.. Only way to get away from it is to hit the wilderness areas or use roads that are dug up etc...
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: big J on November 09, 2010, 07:43:49 AM
sounds like your jealous if i had permission to drive in i would and if you got mad about it i would laugh at ya. you should be happy they let the public in there at all. if you don't like their policy hunt somewhere else and quit crying about it  :'(
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: BLKBEARKLR on November 09, 2010, 07:48:26 AM
I dont see a problem here, be glad the timber company is even letting you hunt there. If they have permission and they are allowed to use the truck why the heck would you not?

If you had 10,000 acres of your very own private land you going to pedal your bicycle around?

It is a privately owned forest, like said if you want everyone to play by the same rules than hunt public land only.
Exactly
I didn't realize there were so many road hunters out there.  I don't think road hunters would ever see the point. 

LMAO, there you go thinking again. I have four trucks, two quads and an enduro. And guess what they all stay in the garage or on the highway. I hunt wilderness there are no roads there, you should try it some day it may be a nice change for you instead of walking a road system in and sitting on a clear cut watching a herd of elk  ;)

Joe
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Coastal_native on November 09, 2010, 08:00:07 AM
Practical,

you're getting beat up on this thread...thought I'd come to your aid.  I've lived in the heart of Rayonier Country my whole life...take pride in the way you hunt and don't let comments on this thread discourage you.  If hunting means shooting at an animal 10 feet from your truck than I don't want to be considered a hunter anymore.  I do agree about the comments about respecting the fact that private timber co. lets you hunt there land, but c'mon...when did hunting turn into just killing.  Hunting is an overall experience...and I personaly wouldn't consider anything that I shot from my door jam to to be a hunting experience...How do you tell that hunting story?

No offense to disabled hunters or people with physical limitations, I applaud them for still getting out and enjoying the tradition...just proves how much they love the sport.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: woodrat on November 09, 2010, 09:29:52 AM
honestly, after all the unsuccessful looking for elk I've done on foot, I can hardly imagine how the heck anyone ever even comes across one working from the cab of their truck, but that seems to be the way people like to do it around here. the clearcut up behind my land is not even worth hunting because of the truck traffic through there. I've been hunting up above there in the brush before and heard several trucks per hour going in, and then turning around and coming right back out, all day long. The blacktails are locked down so tight in there by opening day with all the "scouting" that people do before hand that it's nearly impossible to get one to move.

I understand that some older fellows aren't really up to major sidehill and brushy hiking, and there's one nice old guy that I run into when I'm hiking behind my place who is really friendly and laid back, and I don't judge him and people like him for truck hunting, but I really don't get it when I see young healthy guys like me driving around the clearcut and never even getting out of the truck to look around, let alone walking. Most of the time I never even hear them turn of their engine, and they rarely notice me hunting the edges on foot, even though I'm wearing orange.I almost never see a bootprint up there that's not my own more than a couple of yards from the roads. I haven't even tried up there for elk this year. I was hiking the main road into a different spot this morning and ran into that nice old guy going in and then coming right back out and he said there was already two trucks up there before daylight.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: jbeaumont21 on November 09, 2010, 11:44:59 AM
I understand and agree that we are fortunate to be able to hunt these private lands, and as frustrating as it can be I do appreciate the opportunity.  However, I do question the management of the land. Perhaps I am just uninformed but there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason as to how they manage the game, access to gates and the enforcment of laws.  Does anyone know if they work with WDFW before deciding on when and where to open gates?  I would expect a large corporation such as Weyehaeuser to work closely with the WDFW to manage the game and wildlife on their lands and enforce better conservation.  I have found a couple articles on Weyehaeyser and WDFW working together on game management, but it was just for the special permits accessing the St Helens tree farm.  I guess when its your land you can do what you want with it? Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: timmyg on November 09, 2010, 01:05:16 PM
The rules seem clear to me.  If you have a key, you can drive in.  If not, you are walking or biking.  Start destroying other folks property, and the rules will change to only those with keys can hunt.  If you had a key would you pedal in?

This being said, it is not fun when someone screws up your hunt like it sounds like those folks did.  That happens on private and public land all the time, as well as in the east and west. 
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: donsk16 on November 09, 2010, 03:30:24 PM
If you don't want to play by the private owner's rules, then go hunt public land.  If you are on someone elses land you don't get to control what they do with it.  Maybe if you were the owner you would handle things differently...but you aren't and we are all lucky that we get to hunt thousands of acres of land owned by the timber companies.  They could just close their land to hunting.

Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Glockster on November 09, 2010, 04:23:58 PM
Timber companies are for profit and the only thing they care about is maximizing and protecting their investments.  They do not care about providing a quality hunting experience to you or me.  It is not their job to do so.

They allow us to hunt because we kill and haze deer, elk and bears; critters that impact their bottom line by damaging their seedlings and timber (bears).  They close their gates to keep meth heads, slobs and other lowlifes from using their land as dumping grounds and shooting galleries. 

So we kind of need to keep it in perspective when we complain about fellow hunters and how the timber companies are managing their access or lack of it.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: huntmando on November 09, 2010, 04:49:48 PM
Glockster hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: grousetracker on November 09, 2010, 04:56:24 PM
the state gives big timber companies like weyco, port blakely and others tax breaks for allowing hunting in our state. if you apply for damages from the wdfw and you dont allow hunting the state goes after the money they paid you for said damages. i have a list of all properties that applied for damage control and the companies listed are all on them, so if they close there land to you,just call a warden and show him the list and watch how fast that company opens its land. i do it every year and they let me hunt anytime i want, just to shut me up.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: fair-chase on November 09, 2010, 05:04:49 PM
Grousetracker, you must be making a lot of friends over at the timber company. :chuckle: that is some great insight. Way to go on researching the land that you want to hunt and holding those taking our tax dollars accountable.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: TONTO on November 09, 2010, 06:24:08 PM
I spend several days scouting elk on the westside this past week.  Found a couple of nice herds with bulls in them and was pretty stoked.  This was on Rayonier and Green Crow properties, which were all gated.  My hunting buddy and I spend hours riding and pushing bikes all over the hills scouting for elk to find the ones we did.  On the day before the season opened an Gabe Regard and a crony of his started using his keys to get behind the gates and drove all over the country side scouting for elk.  He wasn't working in the area, just scouting.  Well I was sitting on a elk herd watching them for the day and waiting for them to bed for the evening.  Well low in behold Mr. Regard came driving in on the herd that I was watching.  At first they just stopped the truck and glassed them for a while.  So I stepped out of my hiding spot and let them know I was there watching the elk.  They drove past me without acknowledging I was there and drove right into the herd of elk spooking them out of the area.  This crap pisses me off.  So now a perfectly laid plan is wasted.  

Then to top it off my buddy radios me telling me that there is another truck driving around scouting for elk as well. He is an employee of one of the timber companies and he has permission to hunt using his truck.  How is a guy to compete with that bullsnot.  These two timber companies disgust me with their lack of enforcement and key management.  I have seen in other forums where Tribes are considered poachers for not hunting by the same rules, well if this same argument applies, then these fat lazy jerks are poachers as well.

If the gates are closed forvehicle access, then they are closed for everyone.  No privileges.  I don't care who you are or who you work for.  If this ever happens to me again and I catch up to the truck parked somewhere, they will be buying a new set of tires for sure.  You have to be a pretty sorry sort of person to feel like you are owed the right to drive around shooting up all of the elk herds while others are abiding by the rules and working there asses off to do it.  




Anyone else run into this type of crap?

 I didn't take the time to read the pages of posts, yeah I'm gonna be that guy tonight I'm tired. You had my sympathy untill

Quote
I don't care who you are or who you work for.  If this ever happens to me again and I catch up to the truck parked somewhere, they will be buying a new set of tires for sure.

 Keep in mind it is private property, and they do aperantly have keys. Quite possibly they do have the property owners permision. So say they do get their tires slashed then this gets back to the land owner. Nothing pisses a land owner off more than equipment vandalized, yeah even if it is a private owners truck. Next it is not only gated but written permision is required.....

Same thing has happened to me and my brother, we scouted, put the elk to bed , and were a good 6 miles in on a 7 mile hike to where the elk were seen at dusk the night before. Then we were passed by a string of 4 trucks, up around the bend they go, and the shots rang out. They took 3 of 4 bulls at daylight from the ridge we were on the night before.
 Then we got the pleasure of seeing them drive back and forth the rest of the day, racks sticking in the air, looking for the fourth. The was one other guy in the area that had passed us earlier on a mtn bike. He had license numbers and was headed to report them. I heard from my brother later that they were all fired from the jippo outfit that they were working for. I guess I'm saying sometimes you should take the high road, don't make it look bad for the rest of us.
 OK we didn't actualy go away without a little revenge I guess, back at the truck my brother took a super glue coated toothpick and broke it off in the lock while they were still in there. Probably not the wise thing to do, but they get to explain why they had to cut the lock to the property owner.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: SemperFidelis97 on November 09, 2010, 06:40:03 PM
I can understand the frustration, but it is the nature of the beast.  You may try to talk to the guys hell they might have some useful information.  We ran into a similar situation this year elk hunting, and come to find out from talking to the guy he was the owner of the company that does a large amount of the DNR cutting in the area.  Because we were nice to the guy he drove us around showing us all the areas he had seen elk, and told us how to get ahold of him if we did get an elk, and needed to get it out.  Sometimes it goes a long way to just talk to people even if they are really in the wrong you may help set a guy straight, or get some useful insight as with what happened to us this year.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: BAR C3 on November 09, 2010, 06:51:26 PM
I spend several days scouting elk on the westside this past week.  Found a couple of nice herds with bulls in them and was pretty stoked.  This was on Rayonier and Green Crow properties, which were all gated.  My hunting buddy and I spend hours riding and pushing bikes all over the hills scouting for elk to find the ones we did.  On the day before the season opened an Gabe Regard and a crony of his started using his keys to get behind the gates and drove all over the country side scouting for elk.  He wasn't working in the area, just scouting.  Well I was sitting on a elk herd watching them for the day and waiting for them to bed for the evening.  Well low in behold Mr. Regard came driving in on the herd that I was watching.  At first they just stopped the truck and glassed them for a while.  So I stepped out of my hiding spot and let them know I was there watching the elk.  They drove past me without acknowledging I was there and drove right into the herd of elk spooking them out of the area.  This crap pisses me off.  So now a perfectly laid plan is wasted.  

Then to top it off my buddy radios me telling me that there is another truck driving around scouting for elk as well. He is an employee of one of the timber companies and he has permission to hunt using his truck.  How is a guy to compete with that bullsnot.  These two timber companies disgust me with their lack of enforcement and key management.  I have seen in other forums where Tribes are considered poachers for not hunting by the same rules, well if this same argument applies, then these fat lazy jerks are poachers as well.

If the gates are closed forvehicle access, then they are closed for everyone.  No privileges.  I don't care who you are or who you work for.  If this ever happens to me again and I catch up to the truck parked somewhere, they will be buying a new set of tires for sure.  You have to be a pretty sorry sort of person to feel like you are owed the right to drive around shooting up all of the elk herds while others are abiding by the rules and working there asses off to do it.  




Anyone else run into this type of crap?
Gabe , Mr. King Logger? More like Chief lazy ass! He isn't going to work for nothing. Only thing is is working at is making an ass of himself on Ax Men! Knew him in my college years and he isn't what I would qualify as a hunter! :pee:
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: BAR C3 on November 09, 2010, 07:01:15 PM
I would call Rayonier and Green Crow. We use to do bear damage hunts for Green Crow on the Peninsula. Got keys to the gates for bear hunting only! If we got caught for anything else, we would loose the privledge. I saw one of the biggest blacktails of my life while baiting and didn't shot it because I follow the rules. I then bicycled in and shot the biggest blacktail of my life. Got the photos to prove it. I know when I lived over there both had security on the roads. Regardless if Gabe is working in the area, he cannot use the keys for hunting and he knows it. He could have also copied the keys from previous work. I would turn is butt in. Can't stand him. Tell him Chris Fitzpatrick says hi if you see him again. Dated his wife before he married her. :drool: :tup: He isn't a big fan, so you may hurt his feelings.
If you want to know my feeling on this gate thing, read my thread on the Peaches Ridge Violators. Dealt with the same crap and the tree huggers at the Forest Service and the timber company could careless, so the phone call could be a waste of time. I would still call and give them a piece of your mind!
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: CastleRocker on November 09, 2010, 07:17:16 PM
Well, I have to chime in on this one.  I've been on both sides of this one, and hunting by foot or by truck, it's still hunting.  Some just go about it differently than others.  

I too have hiked in past everyone else and had a truck come by me and spook the elk I was going to hunt.  Like others have said; if you want to get away from that, then go hunt a wilderness area.  I've done that several times as well.  

On the flip side, I have been just as frustrated as anyone out there when I've watched "my" bull every damn day for months while logging and then some city dude drives up in his brand new Eddie Bauer Edition Ford and pops the bull I've been watching since he started growing velvet stumps last spring.  Yeah, I used to be one of the guys with the keys.  I'm not anymore, but I still believe that if anyone has more right to be there in a vehicle, it should be the poor soul that barely makes a living working his ass of in every kind of weather all year long.  Never done it?  Then you have absolutely no concept, and I'll just leave it at that.  Oh and Tonto just a word of advice; you (or anyone else for that matter) would NOT want to be caught by a rigging, or cutting crew while you are messing up a lock.  Ever been "stump broke"?  

These days I'm the guy on the mountain bike huffing and puffing.  I do make sure I talk to every rigging crew, and cutting crew that wants to talk to me.  It was mentioned earlier, but it's worth mentioning again.  Loggers and others that work in the woods and are there working every day, know where most of the animals are.  Make friends with them and they will most likely help you out any way they can.  Make enemies of them, and well, it's just better to get along with them.  Been there.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: logger on November 09, 2010, 07:19:51 PM
 :tup: :brew:
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: stumprat on November 09, 2010, 07:24:04 PM
Talk to the game warden, it may be worth 10 bonus points!


 :DOH:  You are kidding RIGHT????????

I am so tired of hearing that statement!

 Bonus points for turning in someone for using thier issued key?????? Like a few others have said. Use of the tree farm is a perk for some timber companies.

Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Basket Rack on November 09, 2010, 07:38:24 PM
the state gives big timber companies like weyco, port blakely and others tax breaks for allowing hunting in our state. if you apply for damages from the wdfw and you dont allow hunting the state goes after the money they paid you for said damages. i have a list of all properties that applied for damage control and the companies listed are all on them, so if they close there land to you,just call a warden and show him the list and watch how fast that company opens its land. i do it every year and they let me hunt anytime i want, just to shut me up.

What taxes exactly would you be referring to, I do not believe there is any tax break from allowing hunting on state timber excise taxes.  Timber companies do apply for depredation tags for bear damage, beaver damage, mt beaver damage etc.  but I do not think there are any cash payments made just permits to remove damaging animals.  Where did you get this list of damages paid and how does it correlate to these supposed tax breaks.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: BAR C3 on November 09, 2010, 07:42:39 PM
Well, I have to chime in on this one.  I've been on both sides of this one, and hunting by foot or by truck, it's still hunting.  Some just go about it differently than others.  

I too have hiked in past everyone else and had a truck come by me and spook the elk I was going to hunt.  Like others have said; if you want to get away from that, then go hunt a wilderness area.  I've done that several times as well.  

On the flip side, I have been just as frustrated as anyone out there when I've watched "my" bull every damn day for months while logging and then some city dude drives up in his brand new Eddie Bauer Edition Ford and pops the bull I've been watching since he started growing velvet stumps last spring.  Yeah, I used to be one of the guys with the keys.  I'm not anymore, but I still believe that if anyone has more right to be there in a vehicle, it should be the poor soul that barely makes a living working his ass of in every kind of weather all year long.  Never done it?  Then you have absolutely no concept, and I'll just leave it at that.  Oh and Tonto just a word of advice; you (or anyone else for that matter) would NOT want to be caught by a rigging, or cutting crew while you are messing up a lock.  Ever been "stump broke"?  

These days I'm the guy on the mountain bike huffing and puffing.  I do make sure I talk to every rigging crew, and cutting crew that wants to talk to me.  It was mentioned earlier, but it's worth mentioning again.  Loggers and others that work in the woods and are there working every day, know where most of the animals are.  Make friends with them and they will most likely help you out any way they can.  Make enemies of them, and well, it's just better to get along with them.  Been there.
Well said! But with this situation, I don't appreciate a liar. If it had been me and I was working behind a gate, I would at least give the guy a ride. He told him he was scouting.
Game Department won't do anything about it!
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: outlaw on November 09, 2010, 07:54:59 PM
I feel for ya fellow hunter,  But this day and age it seemz people are lazy and have more green backs than the most.  Soo go ahead and pop the tires and take the chance and walk away maybee you get caught maybee you dont but pretty much you get satisfaction and maybee the lazy guys will get out of there truck.  And work for the animal rather thean be lazy knowing some corporate guru is in it for a$$.  But that is just me.  Good luck!@#$%^&*()
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on November 09, 2010, 08:20:12 PM
I know the farmers will get money for damaged crops from the state, not sure about tax breaks. If u call a warden they will give u names & addresses of people that have claimed damages if u ask them to hunt and they tell you no, you can call WSDFW and they will no longer give them funds for damaged crops. I had them email me the list it's also a decent tool to give you an idea where elk hang out. It does get old on here with people bitching about others hunting habits. You can use vehicle traffic to your advantage. Oh and the 10 points things I'm sick of it too. Go out ryderwood and all the Weyco employees will drive right passed you it a perk to them for working for the company. You would be slashing a lot  of tires up there, unfortunately u may not make it out alive or might mysteriously come up missing.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: woodrat on November 09, 2010, 08:35:24 PM
My understanding is that the big timber companies do get a reduced rate on their property taxes, with the understanding that they are providing a public service by allowing hunting and other recreation on their lands. I've heard this from several different sources. I would be pretty dang surprised if Weyerhaeuser and the like pay the same rate on their timber land as I pay on my timber land.

That being said, I like locked gates. I walked for over 8 miles today behind locked gates, and while I didn't see any elk, I also didn't see a single truck, either, and only one guy and his kid on foot, less than a mile behind a gate. As soon as I got back out on the unlocked side, I was passed by three trucks in less than 20 minutes and saw two more parked on spur roads within a quarter mile of each other. I'm a big fan of locked gates right now, although it would have been annoying to have hiked miles in, uphill all the way, to get into a nice area and then run into truck hunters. The company that owns most of the corporate land around here is pretty much just an insurance/investment company, and they contract all the real work out. I'm sure there are guys that keep copies of keys, no doubt in direct violation of the rules, but so far, I've not run into trucks behind the gates.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: TONTO on November 09, 2010, 08:59:52 PM
Quote
I'm not anymore, but I still believe that if anyone has more right to be there in a vehicle, it should be the poor soul that barely makes a living working his ass of in every kind of weather all year long.  Never done it?  Then you have absolutely no concept, and I'll just leave it at that.  Oh and Tonto just a word of advice; you (or anyone else for that matter) would NOT want to be caught by a rigging, or cutting crew while you are messing up a lock.  Ever been "stump broke"?   

No I have never been in the logging industry, but I have grown up around a lot of loggers, save the super hero business for somebody else, it's just a job like anyother.    Stump Broke ?  No, but sounds like it might be amuzing.    Like I said the lock thing might not have been the wizest thing to do but this was a one gate access area, and we knew exactly who was up in there at the time.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: BAR C3 on November 09, 2010, 09:11:27 PM
Quote
I'm not anymore, but I still believe that if anyone has more right to be there in a vehicle, it should be the poor soul that barely makes a living working his ass of in every kind of weather all year long.  Never done it?  Then you have absolutely no concept, and I'll just leave it at that.  Oh and Tonto just a word of advice; you (or anyone else for that matter) would NOT want to be caught by a rigging, or cutting crew while you are messing up a lock.  Ever been "stump broke"?   

No I have never been in the logging industry, but I have grown up around a lot of loggers, save the super hero business for somebody else, it's just a job like anyother.    Stump Broke ?  No, but sounds like it might be amuzing.    Like I said the lock thing might not have been the wizest thing to do but this was a one gate access area, and we knew exactly who was up in there at the time.
No Superhero, but if you have known alot of loggers, then you would no that there aren't many jobs that compare. I work in a prison which isn't a hard job. Know alot of ex-loggers that also work in the prison. Would go back to logging at the drop of a hat rather than working for the state if the jobs were there. It takes a special person to work has hard as a logger. Other than working on an oil rigging, I don't know of any more dangerous and down right exhausting. When your day ends with a hike straight up a mountain after working the brush all day, you know you have worked!
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: logger on November 09, 2010, 09:31:52 PM
Stumpbreaking is amusing if you are the one givin it, " a job like any other job"  I have had guy's that were all muscled up, could run 20 miles a day  crying like little girls before lunch. Big difference in looking like your in shape and being in shape.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: rasbo on November 10, 2010, 04:28:01 AM
well most the loggers I deal with are great guys,the drivers also.Heck i give them bear pepperoni when I can..heck one year the only road to get where I needed to hunt was blocked by the logging operation,I got on the CB,and asked when it would be open.An operator up the hill asked if I was the bear hunter with the pepperoni?I said hell ya...Road was opened for me,plus they told me of some bears they have been seeing,,It pays to play well with others, many times.I pay for a key to hunt private timberland,if it was walk in only I still wouldn't have a problem with those that have vehicle access,well except for some envy :chuckle:
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: JCClement on November 10, 2010, 05:56:57 AM
Practical -

1) Buy your own land.

2) Buy archery equipment.

3) Buy a muzzleloader if you don't want to hunt archery.

4) Talk to the company and see if you can get a key.

Fact remains that no matter what you do in life, there are people that will have more opportunity than others.  Don't care if you are talking about hunting, racing, golf, or any other activity people engage in as a hobby.  Does it suck that someone else had an "easier" time getting to where you were?  Yes.  However, obviously you were near enough to a road that you weren't exactly in the timber.  I dunno, it seems that if there were so many "hardcore" hunters that hated "road" hunters, there would be no "road" hunters, and more guys in the timber.

Also, have you ever noticed there is far less comments about "road" hunters and problems with them during archery/muzzie seasons?  Why would want to hunt modern with all the bitching that goes on?  :dunno:

That being said, I hope everyone is safe out there, and enjoys the moments that make the memories that cannot ever be replicated.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: mrgoodwrench on November 13, 2010, 09:48:37 AM
Timber compaines DO NOT get a tax break for allowing public access.  They pay reduced taxes on the land as the timber grows.....then they pay an excise tax at the time of harvest.  That is the fact, and all the other tax break stories about public access that I grew up hearing on the Harbor are in fact false.

I'm a timber company employee, with keys to our lands and most other landowners in western Washington, I'm allowed to hunt behind our gates only.....but don't have the balls to do it because I know the pickup would be damaged when I got out of the brush.  I don't rifle hunt, but had my wife out last sunday trying to find her a bull.  We rode the bikes in 9 miles to get on a herd of 33 with one spike, saw no hunters, no bike tracks from opening day, and no one at the gate when we rode in in the morning......about 5 miles from the gate on our way out we caught one of our contract loggers hunting with his truck on a landing......I got pissed becuase I was on a bike and he isn't allowed to use the key for unofficial business.....fired a shot in the cutbank with her rifle and he took off out of the walkin at a hundred miles an hour.

I do work with guys who drive behind the gates....I won't do it...but I also won't pack an animal out from behind a gate if I have access....and I do haul hunters out when I'm working.....they are usually happy to get a ride out after a long day in the weather
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on November 13, 2010, 10:51:02 AM
:bash: Your on private property. Be thankful your allowed to hunt it instead of complaining about how the owners dictate usage.

Amen that!  The roads got closed to the public due to abuse (garbage dumping, vandalism, theft, etc). If public hunters on foot are doing the same garbage (slashing tires, for instance), why let public hunters on at all?
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Practical Approach on November 23, 2010, 09:01:29 AM
sounds like your jealous if i had permission to drive in i would and if you got mad about it i would laugh at ya. you should be happy they let the public in there at all. if you don't like their policy hunt somewhere else and quit crying about it  :'(

Not jealous.  I don't enjoy road hunting.  Just disapointed that my hunt was ruined a couple of days by road hunting.  I do appreciate the opportunity to hunt on private lands, but wish everyone played by the same rules.  I put a lot of work into scouting areas by foot and bike, only to have someone that thinks they deserve to not play by the same rules as everyone else.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Practical Approach on November 23, 2010, 09:07:37 AM
The rules seem clear to me.  If you have a key, you can drive in.  If not, you are walking or biking.  Start destroying other folks property, and the rules will change to only those with keys can hunt.  If you had a key would you pedal in?

This being said, it is not fun when someone screws up your hunt like it sounds like those folks did.  That happens on private and public land all the time, as well as in the east and west. 

Wrong!  When the private timberlands policy regarding hunting is stated at each gate, that is what you abide by.  Usually they read something like Hunting by non moterized vehicle or non-motorized vehicle access allowed.  THis doesn't mean Joe lazy Arse gets to drive because he swiped, stole, never returned or thinks it is his divine right to hunt from his truck.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Practical Approach on November 23, 2010, 09:11:27 AM
I spend several days scouting elk on the westside this past week.  Found a couple of nice herds with bulls in them and was pretty stoked.  This was on Rayonier and Green Crow properties, which were all gated.  My hunting buddy and I spend hours riding and pushing bikes all over the hills scouting for elk to find the ones we did.  On the day before the season opened an Gabe Regard and a crony of his started using his keys to get behind the gates and drove all over the country side scouting for elk.  He wasn't working in the area, just scouting.  Well I was sitting on a elk herd watching them for the day and waiting for them to bed for the evening.  Well low in behold Mr. Regard came driving in on the herd that I was watching.  At first they just stopped the truck and glassed them for a while.  So I stepped out of my hiding spot and let them know I was there watching the elk.  They drove past me without acknowledging I was there and drove right into the herd of elk spooking them out of the area.  This crap pisses me off.  So now a perfectly laid plan is wasted.  

One guy did not have permission to be back there in his truck.  THat is what really had me pissed.  I have a hard time believing every Joe out there that tells me he has the landowners permission to hunt by vehicle.  I doubt it.  Just plain arrogant and lazy in my opinion.


Then to top it off my buddy radios me telling me that there is another truck driving around scouting for elk as well. He is an employee of one of the timber companies and he has permission to hunt using his truck.  How is a guy to compete with that bullsnot.  These two timber companies disgust me with their lack of enforcement and key management.  I have seen in other forums where Tribes are considered poachers for not hunting by the same rules, well if this same argument applies, then these fat lazy jerks are poachers as well.

If the gates are closed forvehicle access, then they are closed for everyone.  No privileges.  I don't care who you are or who you work for.  If this ever happens to me again and I catch up to the truck parked somewhere, they will be buying a new set of tires for sure.  You have to be a pretty sorry sort of person to feel like you are owed the right to drive around shooting up all of the elk herds while others are abiding by the rules and working there asses off to do it.  




Anyone else run into this type of crap?

 I didn't take the time to read the pages of posts, yeah I'm gonna be that guy tonight I'm tired. You had my sympathy untill

Quote
I don't care who you are or who you work for.  If this ever happens to me again and I catch up to the truck parked somewhere, they will be buying a new set of tires for sure.

 Keep in mind it is private property, and they do aperantly have keys. Quite possibly they do have the property owners permision. So say they do get their tires slashed then this gets back to the land owner. Nothing pisses a land owner off more than equipment vandalized, yeah even if it is a private owners truck. Next it is not only gated but written permision is required.....

Same thing has happened to me and my brother, we scouted, put the elk to bed , and were a good 6 miles in on a 7 mile hike to where the elk were seen at dusk the night before. Then we were passed by a string of 4 trucks, up around the bend they go, and the shots rang out. They took 3 of 4 bulls at daylight from the ridge we were on the night before.
 Then we got the pleasure of seeing them drive back and forth the rest of the day, racks sticking in the air, looking for the fourth. The was one other guy in the area that had passed us earlier on a mtn bike. He had license numbers and was headed to report them. I heard from my brother later that they were all fired from the jippo outfit that they were working for. I guess I'm saying sometimes you should take the high road, don't make it look bad for the rest of us.
 OK we didn't actualy go away without a little revenge I guess, back at the truck my brother took a super glue coated toothpick and broke it off in the lock while they were still in there. Probably not the wise thing to do, but they get to explain why they had to cut the lock to the property owner.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Practical Approach on November 23, 2010, 09:13:13 AM
I would call Rayonier and Green Crow. We use to do bear damage hunts for Green Crow on the Peninsula. Got keys to the gates for bear hunting only! If we got caught for anything else, we would loose the privledge. I saw one of the biggest blacktails of my life while baiting and didn't shot it because I follow the rules. I then bicycled in and shot the biggest blacktail of my life. Got the photos to prove it. I know when I lived over there both had security on the roads. Regardless if Gabe is working in the area, he cannot use the keys for hunting and he knows it. He could have also copied the keys from previous work. I would turn is butt in. Can't stand him. Tell him Chris Fitzpatrick says hi if you see him again. Dated his wife before he married her. :drool: :tup: He isn't a big fan, so you may hurt his feelings.
If you want to know my feeling on this gate thing, read my thread on the Peaches Ridge Violators. Dealt with the same crap and the tree huggers at the Forest Service and the timber company could careless, so the phone call could be a waste of time. I would still call and give them a piece of your mind!

We did turn him in.  Not sure what came of it though.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: tbuck6568 on November 25, 2010, 07:50:08 PM
Regards to tire slashing...
I was blessed with a beautiful 4x4 bull this year which I took on logging property and had to hike WAAY back in for. On my return trip I met another hunter who told me to call the logging co, and they would allow me to drive back in to retrieve my animal. I called and they gave me access through a manned gate. You would not believe the looks I got driving in there...I thought I was going to be shot. I took 2 wrong turns. 1st time resulted in a shaking head and a hunter stopping me to ask how and why I was back there. I took one other wrong turn and spooked a small herd another hunter was working and boy did I feel like an ass. Needless to say, he stopped me and cussed me up one side and down the other...
I ran into the very same hunters on my way out with my bull in the bed and was able to talk with them. The one who cussed me out was actually very happy for me and we both apologized profusely. The other hunter was also happy for me, wishing that I had been along about 10 minutes earlier to give him a ride back to the gate.
Moral of my story: There were those 2 hunters who actually stopped me, asked me for my name and reason, and took my license plate. Kudos...seriously. They WOULD NOT sit by and let somebody illegally road hunt and had the balls to challenge me. Those same hunters were also people I hope to run into next year and have the pleasure of shaking hands again.
Other moral...please don't slash my tires....
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: alecvg on November 25, 2010, 07:58:14 PM
I think your being kinda stupid to be honest.  I understand why you were mad at the first guy, but the second guy?

I work hard for the animals I hunt, I hike in, push bikes in, and in many cases climb in.  That being said, if I was a logger, and had a key for the timber lands, and had permission from my employers to hunt it, I would drive in there.  You would be an idiot not to!  I think you are being very ignorant. 

Also, it is private lands.  You should be happy you are allowed to hunt it, the owners, and managment of the property has the right to give keys to whoever the hell they want, get over it, or don't hunt it.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: Hyde on November 25, 2010, 08:46:32 PM
I worked in the woods for years.  We had keys to the gates, and drove around at will in the course of our duties.  Often times there was no logging going on in a certain area, but we would be there looking at the new ground or marking strips, etc.  You may be correct that the guys who blew past you and boogered your herd were scouting elk (loggers hunt...) but it is also possible that they were scouting out landings, etc., or both.  One thing for sure... if we were caught in the gated area with a firearm during hunting season, we were in deep kimchee. 

It is frustrating though to have a plan blown up by something or someone else.  I once had a herd of elk with a small shooter bull feeding towards me.  I had the spike at 300 yards, but they were heading right at me and I though I would get a better shot, so I waited.  Then some guy comes bee-bopping through the thicket whistling and kicking pinecones.  This young teenager had probably never seen an elk, and probably wasn't expecting to.  If I had to guess, he was bee-lining for his camp and the stale moon pies in the cook tent, not really paying attention to anything.  I could tell that he didn't see me, or the elk, and I was trying to get his attention so he would stop and be quiet.   He stopped about a hundred yards from me and threw up his rifle, aiming at something off behind us and the elk.  Seconds later... BOOM.  The elk exploded in every direction and I was really pissed. I stood up and let this guy have it.  He was shocked to see me, and when he saw the ass end of some of the elk, he said "Wow... there were some elk over there...".  When I realized he was just a teenager, I cooled off.  I asked him what he was shooting at, he said a chipmunk.  We talked for a few minutes and he continued along his way.  I was steaming mad for a few hours, but in reality, I was as much at fault as he.  I wasn't wearing orange (not required in Oregon back then), and I had a good shot but I got greedy for what I thought would be a chip shot.  Public land... I won't make that mistake again. 

Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: mjbskwim on November 26, 2010, 12:16:44 AM
If I owned the land,the first guys to hunt it would be my employees.
As for screwing with locks and gates,seems like a good way to get your own rig screwed up.
Those guys have a job to do just like you.How do you feel when someone screws your work place up?
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: logger on November 26, 2010, 09:46:38 AM
I have keys for damn near any gate in the state, anybody want to buy a copy?  :chuckle:j/k.  I have been behind many gates during the season and one thing I try to do is go in the middle of the day so as not to be in there in the prime time, not always but when I can I do. I have to work regardless if it's huntin season.
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: spottedhand on November 27, 2010, 06:22:35 PM
Glokster got it right.  We laugh at road hunters when they are so thick they have to turn their signal on when they want to pull back out from sitting in their truck glassing a clearcut.  Even during muzzleloader when the ryderwood has their gates open these guys think they are rifle hunting.  We have many just off of the beaten track spots and genrally never even see another hunter.  But you can hear em driving by hundreds of yards away.  Sure it's generally tough going, packing meat over fallen timber and through the brush but we know we were hunting and a great satisfaction keeping these spots secret but then driving back to camp with a rack or leg sticking out of the truck and seeing the head twisters.  Please, don't close the timberlands to those who hunt, just to those who would trash.  We were in the Willipa the last year we could hunt muzzie early.  A guy came through the camps and had a petition he wanted us to sign proposing opening the gates.  We were just back from pedaling 5 miles in and out in the rain and kinda felt compelled to sign.  Then the guy says, besides whats a guy from grays river to do with their old refrigerators and stuff like that ?  We were dumbfounded  :o  This guy was serious we declined the petition and he was like walking away shaking his head in disgust with our answer.  I remember hunting weyerhauser property out of eatonville years ago and hearing gunshots all day out in one of their rock pits sounded like they had about a truck load of trash and ammo.  We came by that pit on the way out and there was everthing from the kitchen sink, couches, tv's and yes old fridges and stoves.  Damn those companies for locking their gates :dunno:  Get out off of the roads and scout, use those road hunters to your advantage.  They may suprise a couple in the open by the road..but most of the time they only see hair running into the brush !
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: mjbskwim on November 27, 2010, 07:20:04 PM
Dude make some paragraphs,use the enter key  jeezzuus effen carist.,

I cant follow anything you said when you post like that

Quote
Glokster got it right.  We laugh at road hunters when they are so thick they have to turn their signal on when they want to pull back out from sitting in their truck glassing a clearcut.  Even during muzzleloader when the ryderwood has their gates open these guys think they are rifle hunting.  We have many just off of the beaten track spots and genrally never even see another hunter.  But you can hear em driving by hundreds of yards away.  Sure it's generally tough going, packing meat over fallen timber and through the brush but we know we were hunting and a great satisfaction keeping these spots secret but then driving back to camp with a rack or leg sticking out of the truck and seeing the head twisters.  Please, don't close the timberlands to those who hunt, just to those who would trash.  We were in the Willipa the last year we could hunt muzzie early.  A guy came through the camps and had a petition he wanted us to sign proposing opening the gates.  We were just back from pedaling 5 miles in and out in the rain and kinda felt compelled to sign. 
Then the guy says, besides whats a guy from grays river to do with their old refrigerators and stuff like that ? 
We were dumbfounded  Shocked  This guy was serious we declined the petition and he was like walking away shaking his head in disgust with our answer.

 I remember hunting weyerhauser property out of eatonville years ago and hearing gunshots all day out in one of their rock pits sounded like they had about a truck load of trash and ammo.  We came by that pit on the way out and there was everthing from the kitchen sink, couches, tv's and yes old fridges and stoves.

 Damn those companies for locking their gates
 Dunno 
Get out off of the roads and scout, use those road hunters to your advantage.  They may surprise a couple in the open by the road..but most of the time they only see hair running into the brush !
Title: Re: Disgusted with Westside Elk Road Hunters!
Post by: bobcat on November 27, 2010, 07:41:41 PM
Dude make some paragraphs,use the enter key  jeezzuus effen carist.,

I cant follow anything you said when you post like that



I didn't have a problem with it. At least there were periods, and sentences began with capital letters. I've seen many posts on here that would about make a guy dizzy trying to make sense of it, but this sure wasn't one of them.   :dunno:
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