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Author Topic: Bloodlines keyholing!!!  (Read 3418 times)

Offline Jellymon

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Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« on: August 23, 2014, 06:26:10 PM »
I've been shooting 300gr bloodlines (.50 cal sabot .458 bullet) for three years now and have always gotten under 3" groups with open sights at 100yds, 1 1/2" when I'm shooting well. It was shooting this well a month ago when I shot it. It's a .50 cal knight disk extreme with the western bolt. I'm loading 100gr 777ffg loose with musket caps.

Well I went out today and eight out of ten shots keyholed, and the shots were everywhere making about a two foot group! The two shots that were clean through paper were about 2" apart a tad low but in the bull. This was on a tight full set of sandbags. I stopped shooting so I didn't waste anything. I clean my gun every six shots. Every bullet was seated well and the gun was going off like a mod firearm, zero lock time that I could notice. The stock is tight, the end of the barrel looks clean and undamaged. I'm not sure what else to look for. I'm going to try another load I've had luck with to see if its the gun or the load.

Anyone have any thoughts as to what's going on? Thanks.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2014, 06:52:17 PM »
I've been shooting 300gr bloodlines (.50 cal sabot .458 bullet) for three years now and have always gotten under 3" groups with open sights at 100yds, 1 1/2" when I'm shooting well. It was shooting this well a month ago when I shot it. It's a .50 cal knight disk extreme with the western bolt. I'm loading 100gr 777ffg loose with musket caps.

Well I went out today and eight out of ten shots keyholed, and the shots were everywhere making about a two foot group! The two shots that were clean through paper were about 2" apart a tad low but in the bull. This was on a tight full set of sandbags. I stopped shooting so I didn't waste anything. I clean my gun every six shots. Every bullet was seated well and the gun was going off like a mod firearm, zero lock time that I could notice. The stock is tight, the end of the barrel looks clean and undamaged. I'm not sure what else to look for. I'm going to try another load I've had luck with to see if its the gun or the load.

Anyone have any thoughts as to what's going on? Thanks.

Because of the length of a 300 grain Bloodline - they do need to get rotation started in the bore right away.  If the sabot/bullet slips up the bore at all they may not stabilize because of the lack of rotation speed.  I would also suggest that they need velocity to get the rotation RPM's so I would suggest 110 grains of T7.  In one of my Knights I have started using HPH-24 sabots to get a little tighter fit in the bore.  the HPH-24 is for a .452 bullet, but it loads very well in the Mountaineer.  The tight fit is important.

The other thought would be the bore, next time you clean you might also use a product like Barnes CR-10 or Birchwood Casey 2-in-1 Bore Cleaner.  These are high in ammonia and will strip the bore clean - you might have a build up of residue trapped behind the lands.  The CR-10 will dissolve that residues fast the 2-in-1 will do it also but needs to stay in the bore a little longer than CR-10.  One other product that accomplishes this task is 'Butches Bore Shine'

Hope you get it figured out.

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 07:23:56 PM »
Thanks, that helps. It used to load fairly evenly the whole way down the bore. Today when loading it was very tight the first 6", then it got much easier the rest of the way down, but I wouldn't call it loose. Now that I think about it the recoil actually felt a tad lighter. Maybe I lost some velocity somewhere?
I'll try what you suggested and load a higher powder charge and clean the bore with the cr-10, I have some laying around for my rifles.
Thanks again! :)

Offline one shot kill

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2014, 12:56:59 AM »
Try a new can of powder. 777 is very good at absorbing moisture. Mine and my dad's bullets were doing the same thing last year and fresh powder fixed the issue. Now I buy a new can every year about 3 weeks before season

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 11:13:57 PM »
Ok, update. Cleaned my gun with sweets (high in ammonia) and tried higher powder charges and am still getting a few bloodlines keyholing. I'm also getting flyers every 2-3 shots that are 6-12" out of the group! I also switched to #11 caps because I couldn't find any musket caps in 3 stores.

I pulled out my other load which is .45 300gr hornady XTP sabots with 110gr 777ffg and #11 caps. Instant tight groups and perfect symmetrical holes in paper. Ran out of those so I tried some 250gr XTP sabots with 777ffg #11 caps, same thing, sub 2" groups with factory open sights. Both these XTP loads are proving to be very consistant and reliable for me. I'm going to be hunting deer with the 250gr XTP load.

Also these XTP's are MUCH cheaper. I can get a 100pack of .45cal, .250 or 300gr XTP's and 100 sabot jackets for about $33. 100 300gr bloodlines would cost $160. :yike:

Overall I'm actually happy this happened. I ended up with a more consistent accurate load and saved a lot of money. :tup:

Offline LDennis24

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2014, 02:44:57 AM »
I would have to say Sabotloader is right that the snugness of the sabot and the bullet fitting in the barrel is very important! Let me share an experience my dad suffered a few yrs back. We were patrolling an area that the elk migrate through around Dec. 5th or so and as we were glassing a huge open span of grass and waterholes in the scabrock we saw a few cows standing on an outcrop of rock so we decided to put the sneak on them. The wind was blowing about 20 mph into the southwest so we circled around almost 3/4 of a mile in order to be downwind of them. There was a couple pillar rocks of basalt sticking up about 60 yds from the cows in the perfect spot for us to sneak up on them and as we circled the rock column we lost sight of the cows. Well we decided to walk over the edge to look for the cows and as I rounded the side of the rock I slammed on the brakes and pulled my dad over to avoid being seen by the elk. There were about 40 elk right in front of us about 40 yds away! All bedded down, looking away from us and we were shielded by a wall of rye grass. We crawled on our knees till we were about 20yds away and got on one knee to ready ourselves for a shot. I let out a whistle to get them to stand up and about 5-6 stood up to look around. We had previously discussed how to pick our animals and since I was on the left I would shoot farthest left and he would shoot the one farthest right. I pulled the trigger and my gun misfired. This got them all startled and my dad shot before they knew what was going on and the elk all began to run. I recapped my gun and sadly it would never go off and the heard got away before my dad was able to reload. We couldn't understand what went wrong with his shot? We didn't see dirt fly and the elk didn't even flinch from the shot. Another group of guys we notified about the elk before we circled them ended up getting a few cows and as we approached them to discuss our failure to connect my dad swung his gun off his shoulder and tipped it towards the ground. One of the guy's said "Hey look at that!" As he pointed to the ground. The bullet just fell out on the ground! His sabots and his bullet's didn't match up properly and even though they felt snug when loading them the bullet was loose in the sabot and was able to slip forward in the barrel. He basically just fired a plastic wad at that elk and it made him sick! How long had this been happening? We don't know, but we went home and measured every bullet and plastic sabot and matched them up properly and have never had a problem since. Sorry for the long story but my dad still rant's about this everytime he see's someone mixing sabot's and bullet's and he swear's it cost him atleast 3 elk!

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2014, 03:13:25 AM »
I doubt the bloodlines are loose. I can barely get them down the barrel theyre so tight. Ive even forgotten to load powder before, and after taking out the breech plug I cant even get the sabot to budge by pushing from the breech end. I had to push from the muzzle and out the breech.
I dont see the point in me using the bloodlines anymore when my other load is very accurate, loads easier, is more available, and is much cheaper.
Im going to experiment with bloodlines more next year because I did like the performance on deer the last couple years. But I have it ready for october so im not touching anything.

Offline d.winsor

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2014, 09:33:07 AM »
This is From MMP Sabot Internet site:             It appeared to be relevant and good info.     I am not saying this is the problem, as you say you shot the bloodline for 3 years with no problems.



If your target indicates tumbling bullets you will probably have to select lighter bullets. If you shoot good groups at fifty yards, then, assuming you have a good sight picture and the ability to shoot well at greater distances, groups go bad at one hundred yards, try a lighter bullet. There are exceptions to these indications. Occasionally we shoot a slow twist (one turn in forty-eight inches) rifle that shoots very well with virtually all the recommended bullets, this seems more evident in the large diameter bullets.

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2014, 12:55:06 PM »
Thanks guys for trying to help!
I dont think its bullet weight either because the same weight XTP's  shoot very well. I really liked the bloodlines and they shot great for 2 years, I have no idea what changed. :dunno: next year ill start from scratch and try to figure it out.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2014, 01:52:17 PM »
Thanks guys for trying to help!
I dont think its bullet weight either because the same weight XTP's  shoot very well. I really liked the bloodlines and they shot great for 2 years, I have no idea what changed. :dunno: next year ill start from scratch and try to figure it out.

When you can...  Try this bullet again with possibly two changes...

1. If you are using the same powder jug as you have been using - up the powder charge to 110 or 120 max. Reason... I am thinking your jug may have picked up some moisture along the way.  Increasing the powder volume may boost the velocity back up where it needs to be to stabilize the Bloodline.  Because of its' longer length it does need velocity to stabilize.  The shorter XTP's or any lead copper bullet of equal weight will stabilize with less velocity.

Also and you probably already do this... make sure to tighten the lid on the powder when you put it away.  I actually use the paper seal on the top of the bottle over again.  I peel it off (carefully) and flip the seal over and put it back into the lid of the bottle.  This seems to make a very good seal on the jug.

2. Try a new bottle of powder when you get a chance - but I still would go with 110 grains...

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2014, 02:05:45 PM »
Ok ill try that, seems like one of the only culprits left. Thanks!

Offline JJB11B

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Re: Bloodlines keyholing!!!
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2014, 03:45:06 PM »
Thanks for this, as someone who is venturing into the mysterious world of Muzzies I read as many of the Muzzy threads I can. Hopefully next year I have a muzzy and time to hunt!
"Pain heals, chicks dig scars, glory lasts forever."
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