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Author Topic: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed  (Read 24331 times)

Offline Biggerhammer

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2015, 01:42:15 PM »
The FS (Flanagan's) main reasoning to keep it closed is a term she used multiple times in a recent conversation I had with her, "Alluvial fan situations"
After the fire a heavy rain event caused Pope Creek to swell, which caused debris to block a culvert, which in turn caused the creek to change its course and over flow the valley road. Over the years, Pope creek has had the same issues and to my knowledge the road/area has never been closed for any length of time before.

It is really mismanagement by the FS. Heavy run off in this area is nothing new, fire or not. An effective fix would be to install a much larger culvert for Pope Creek to run through, and an improved channel to the Entiat River.

I firmly believe the FS (with help from the greenies) goal is to eventually close all roads that are not listed as a level 4 or 5 maintenance level. They simply do not want to manage them.  :bash: :bash:

Here is what the Halfway Springs campground looks like after they turned it into a landing. :(

I've shot my share of Bear in that area.
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Offline huntnphool

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2015, 07:44:10 PM »
The FS (Flanagan's) main reasoning to keep it closed is a term she used multiple times in a recent conversation I had with her, "Alluvial fan situations"
After the fire a heavy rain event caused Pope Creek to swell, which caused debris to block a culvert, which in turn caused the creek to change its course and over flow the valley road. Over the years, Pope creek has had the same issues and to my knowledge the road/area has never been closed for any length of time before.

It is really mismanagement by the FS. Heavy run off in this area is nothing new, fire or not. An effective fix would be to install a much larger culvert for Pope Creek to run through, and an improved channel to the Entiat River.

I firmly believe the FS (with help from the greenies) goal is to eventually close all roads that are not listed as a level 4 or 5 maintenance level. They simply do not want to manage them.

 Seems to me the best way to handle this would be to form "FAG" (Forest Advisory Group), load it up with greenies from the FS and a couple intelligent, diplomatic hunters to represent us on these controversial matters.  There will always be disagreement...but there just might be more common ground than folks here realize. The group might just work better together if they have an opportunity to get to know each other on a personal level. After all, what have we got to lose? :rolleyes:
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Offline westside Elkhunter

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2015, 08:25:05 PM »
Anything good come from the open house earlier today?

Offline NOCK NOCK

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2015, 08:53:18 PM »
NO

Same old Circus BS!!     I will post more about it tomorrow
 

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Offline muleracks

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2015, 10:33:48 AM »
The information provided was useless but there were so many people and it was so noisy you really could hear anyway.  The point for us was to show a strong interest in having the road reopened.  Now we move on to force the issue with the Ranger, Forest Supervisor and on up the food chain.  There is committee working on the procedure.  Probably will not require a mass showing like the people of Entiat and many groups did Monday evening.

The Ranger seems to have no interest in seeking ways to mitigate the risks stated in the BAER report.   A review of the situation is suppose to happen soon and that should solve the issue because the BAER report grossly over states any risk to to the public.

Offline vandeman17

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2015, 10:35:54 AM »
The information provided was useless but there were so many people and it was so noisy you really could hear anyway.  The point for us was to show a strong interest in having the road reopened.  Now we move on to force the issue with the Ranger, Forest Supervisor and on up the food chain.  There is committee working on the procedure.  Probably will not require a mass showing like the people of Entiat and many groups did Monday evening.

The Ranger seems to have no interest in seeking ways to mitigate the risks stated in the BAER report.   A review of the situation is suppose to happen soon and that should solve the issue because the BAER report grossly over states any risk to to the public.

If you do organize something more specific, let me know and if I am available, I would be happy to take part and help in whatever way I can.
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Offline NOCK NOCK

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2015, 10:56:01 AM »
So here is my take on this matter/meeting

1. District Ranger Janet Flanagan did not impress me.

Hosting a meeting about an important subject like this     and she was not wearing a FS uniform (jeans & T-shirt)....VERY unprofessional. When I asked her if Lake Creek Trail was open/closed, she asked me where Lake Creek trail was, & she kept referring to Shady Pass as "Shady Falls"  A D.R. should know their district better.


2. The whole meeting appeared to be set up as a way for the FS try and convince the public that having this closure is necessary.

Poster boards with pictures from other fires were available to view. Why no pictures from the Duncan fire? Because the vast majority of this fire was low intensity, and very spotty, nothing like the high intensity burns they had pictures of.

3. Their main reasoning, "PUBLIC SAFETY", Pope creek COULD flood/mudslide again.

Pope Creek has had flooding issues for as long as I can remember, happens every couple of years, never have they closed down the upper valley for it. My supervisor at work is a cabin owner at Pope Crk., says they have never had any major flooding that has hurt their cabins (which have been in their family for generations.)
If they were truly worried about safety, why is Silver Falls campground open? Silver creek and two other burned out canyons with unnamed creeks are directly above the campground and pose a risk of mud/debris flows that could potentially take out the campground.

From their news release: "The boundaries of the closed area were adjusted to open additional areas for mushroom harvesting. Anyone entering the newly opened area should be aware of the possibility of falling trees & rocks, debris flows, and other typical post fire hazards." So Really, they are only concerned about the publics safety below Pope Crk. ????  Public safety is an excuse.
 
4. The FS had a "lets sit back and see what happens" approach to this area burn closure. There was ZERO talk of being proactive.

Why not fix the issue at Pope Crk?  Widen/strengthen the creek channel as it passes through the alluvial fan before it's juncture with the valley road, replace the current small culvert with a huge one, then strengthen the output channel down to the Entiat River?

5. A little off subject with this one, but, several FS employees shared that they too feel the environmentalists are the ones who are controlling what the FS does....So much for managing the forests for ALL public interests.

6. It was very obvious the FS did not care what the public had to say. They had an attitude of "we are going to do what we want, if you do not like it, too bad"

S.O.S.D.D.

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Offline Special T

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2015, 12:50:47 PM »
right out of thier playbook... laid out in the book I mentioned
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Online JimmyHoffa

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2015, 12:57:51 PM »
Well written letters with a good alternative to some congress critters?

Offline TommyH

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2015, 06:15:46 PM »
The FS (Flanagan's) main reasoning to keep it closed is a term she used multiple times in a recent conversation I had with her, "Alluvial fan situations"
After the fire a heavy rain event caused Pope Creek to swell, which caused debris to block a culvert, which in turn caused the creek to change its course and over flow the valley road. Over the years, Pope creek has had the same issues and to my knowledge the road/area has never been closed for any length of time before.

It is really mismanagement by the FS. Heavy run off in this area is nothing new, fire or not. An effective fix would be to install a much larger culvert for Pope Creek to run through, and an improved channel to the Entiat River.

I firmly believe the FS (with help from the greenies) goal is to eventually close all roads that are not listed as a level 4 or 5 maintenance level. They simply do not want to manage them.

 Seems to me the best way to handle this would be to form "FAG" (Forest Advisory Group), load it up with greenies from the FS and a couple intelligent, diplomatic hunters to represent us on these controversial matters.  There will always be disagreement...but there just might be more common ground than folks here realize. The group might just work better together if they have an opportunity to get to know each other on a personal level. After all, what have we got to lose? :rolleyes:

  :chuckle: :chuckle:

Offline opdinkslayer

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2015, 06:08:11 AM »
I'm sure this is the year I draw the late entiat rifle tag just to have Ranger Flannigan close the entire unit for my own safety. :chuckle: :chuckle: :bash:

Offline muleracks

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2015, 12:27:59 PM »
Don't count on the Entiat, GMU 247,FS roads staying open if it snows; Ranger Flanagan is very risk adverse and "worries about us a lot"   :bash:

NOCK NOCK  They did suspend the cabin permits; who know when and if they every get re-instated.  The Duncan burn was hot in 15% of the spots, 46% was very low or low heat that leaves 39% that was moderately hot.  That is what the burn severity map shows.  The photos show the hot spots.

Compare the Duncan burn with the Carlton burn.  The USGS Post Fire Debris Flow Study makes that easy.   The link below shows the Basin Risk for debris flows at Duncan.  Drag the map up to Carlton or down to the Chiwaukum burn (near Leavenworth).  You will see that it make no sense to close Entiat when the Methow/Okanogan burn is nearly wide open.  Duncan is at a very low risk and no one is worried about an alluvial fan in Pope Creek.


http://landslides.usgs.gov/hazards/postfire_debrisflow/2014/20140716duncan/

Offline muleracks

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2015, 12:34:01 PM »
I should have mentioned that you can scroll to zoom in on the USGS maps.

I hope all of us are beginning to realize how complete the closure is.  Photos I took Monday morning at the Entiat River Gate and went up on North Tommy to see the burn.

Offline muleracks

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2015, 12:36:29 PM »
Here is a closure photo of

Offline muleracks

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2015, 12:38:22 PM »
Here's the gate.

Offline bobcat

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2015, 12:42:20 PM »
What a bunch of BS. If it really needs to be closed to vehicles for safety reasons, it should at least be open for non-motorized use. That's just stupid.

Offline Jonathan_S

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2015, 01:27:05 PM »
Wolf releases  :tinfoil: :tinfoil:
“Kindly do not attempt to cloud the issue with too many facts.”

Offline Elkaholic daWg

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2015, 03:46:13 PM »
What a bunch of BS. If it really needs to be closed to vehicles for safety reasons, it should at least be open for non-motorized use. That's just stupid.
wouldn't a machine remove you from danger faster??? :chuckle:
 Thanks for the info Nock Nock.
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Offline bobcat

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Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2015, 06:37:40 PM »
What a bunch of BS. If it really needs to be closed to vehicles for safety reasons, it should at least be open for non-motorized use. That's just stupid.
wouldn't a machine remove you from danger faster??? :chuckle:
 Thanks for the info Nock Nock.

Yes I suppose. I'm not even sure what the heck is so dangerous in that area.  ???   How is it more dangerous than a lot of other areas in the national forests? A tree could fall on someone anytime, anywhere. We don't need the government protecting us from every little thing that might go wrong.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 10:05:09 PM by bobcat »

Online JimmyHoffa

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2015, 06:42:17 PM »
Yeah, bobcat just post a sign saying no rescues if you go beyond such and such point.  If I remember correctly a wilderness trail previously closed because of fire a year before had a sign saying you could face a year in jail or $10K in fines--maybe it was more.  BigTex could probably clarify that.

Offline NOCK NOCK

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2015, 07:43:56 PM »
Here is a simple fix........

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Offline dreamingbig

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2015, 08:23:32 PM »
Ha ha! Good one nock!  FWIW I agree that the FS has their head up their ass on this one!


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Offline grade-creek-rd

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2015, 10:11:08 PM »
If a group called the "Wild Fish Conservatory" can sue to have steelhead smolt plants stopped, then why can't we sue the Entiat Ranger District over land use/exclusions?...let the District Ranger have to explain herself in the courts. I hate having to resort to that but this is the Feds being bullies...also, I think we should demand all studies done that were used in the Rangers decision to close it through the Publuc Disclosure process to show how her claims of public safety are false baseless.

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Offline Romulus1297

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2015, 11:58:02 PM »
I went in there Wednesday and Silver Falls isnt the campground I remember. The workers use a minature mini excavator it looks like a childs toy to move rotten wood and little rocks to mark parking spots. I didnt even ask why they locked some of the toilets cause that would have wasted their time moving rotten wood. But I did make them wait 1 hour setting in their truck waiting for me :)

Offline rosscrazyelk

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Re: Upper Entiat Valley - Closed
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2015, 08:23:02 AM »
This is all Crap.... Public safety my ass...
in some areas I can see closing some roads at certain times of year. But how can you close it to foot traffic?
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If its brown knock it down