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Author Topic: Force required to break an elk shoulder  (Read 8255 times)

Offline GBoyd

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Force required to break an elk shoulder
« on: May 29, 2016, 12:12:59 PM »
I know there's a ton of threads comparing different cartridges and bullets, but I have a very specific technical questions that I'm hoping some elk rifle gurus can help me with.

I've been using a bullet chart to help select a bullet. There's a description and link in this thread here:
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,196202.0.html

Most of these bullets would be fine on elk with the perfect heart/lung hit, but I'm wondering if I accidentally hit bone. Assuming I choose one of the bullets that hold together well, what sort of velocities are needed to break through shoulder bones on a large elk? These are all 180 grain, 30 caliber bullets.

Is there somebody here that has seen enough shoulder hits on elk to have a reasonable idea of the speed required?


Offline MR5x5

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2016, 03:22:59 PM »
280 fps, 425 gr, Montech G5 - Through the scapula into the spine.
Can't imagine any "elk sized" rifle round having a problem breaking down a shoulder.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 08:05:23 PM by MR5x5 »

Offline Bean Counter

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2016, 04:10:52 PM »
Quote
I've only chronoed my bow once. It shot 257fps. I believe 340 grain arrows and 100 grain bh. Arrow had 9-10" of penetration on my 2014 bull.

Close eyes + slam trigger!  :IBCOOL:

Full disclosure: I also shot one that year, in the vitals area, and it walked off with my arrow  :bash: :bash: :bash:

Four of us searched in vain for a day and a half for a blood trail. I'm pretty sure the bull that was getting field dressed 1/4 mile away by some other hunters was the same  :dunno:
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 03:49:20 AM by Bean Counter »

Offline RadSav

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2016, 04:16:47 PM »
I agree.  Breaking the shoulder of an elk with a 180 grain 30 cal bullet is not that difficult.  If the cartridge is large enough to house the 180 then it's got enough velocity and energy to break the shoulder.  Depending on the weight put on that shoulder at impact can effect how much energy is needed and how easily it is broken.  But, 30-30 on up should have no real problem breaking the shoulder at reasonable range and with reasonable bullet design.

The problem arises when we try to determine what happens after the shoulder is broken.  Penetration, hydrostatic shock, hydraulic shock, blood vessel destruction...all vastly more important than simply breaking the shoulder.  Velocity and bullet design does make a difference in this regard.  In my experience the more velocity = the more critical the bullet design becomes after breaking a shoulder.
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Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2016, 05:42:35 PM »
I know guys that use .270's and just shoot the shoulder - doesn't blow it up like the magnums they say.  They aren't shooting 500+ yards tho....

Offline coachcw

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2016, 08:49:21 PM »
I use vlds. They don't break anything just turn lungs to jelly. Use what shoots outta your gun
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Offline Dan-o

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2016, 08:56:01 PM »
Two years ago, my son shot a cow.

When we cleaned her, we found a solid copper bullet (30 caliber, I guess 180 grain) neatly buried part way into her shoulder.   It was healed over.

I found that surprising.

I'd like to know if it was from very long range and just didn't have enough velocity/energy left........?

That is my sample of 1.

But I've shot several elk in the shoulder that were effectively broken down that way......   I don't shoot the shoulder on purpose, but have it too far forward a few times......
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Offline jdb

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2016, 09:20:48 PM »
I shot a very large old cow last fall at a ranged 200 yards. My first shot hit her square in the shoulder as she stood broadside, I was using a .270 140 grain accubond. She bucked like a horse out of the chute at the shot so I hit her again about 3" from the first shot. Bother bullets were recovered just under the hide on the far side. Both shoulders were completely wrecked, and there was actually lung material protruding for the exit wound.
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Offline JDHasty

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2016, 11:14:44 PM »
My buddy tracked out and killed a bull elk hit broadside @ 400 yards w/a 270 in the liver and the bullet penetrated 8" before stopping.   It had a perfect mushroom and the guy that shot it initially gave up on it.

I shoot a 300 Wby w/180 Nosler Partitions and my buddy shoots the same w/200s.  They will penetrate heavy bone and muscle at range after going through the big part and end up under the hide.  So with an onside shoulder hit I think any 300 magnum w/Partitions will be good medicine.   

 

Offline scoutdog346

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2016, 09:21:59 AM »
A 243cal i. The smallest gr. will go at least 6" past a shoulder at 150yrds. Don't worry.  Back when i hunted with a MF i would go for the double shoulder shot.  Drop them in their tracks every time.  U might loose it with a lung shot at 300yrd because you're so far away and the bullet is traveling so fast right to the animal it doesn't leave much of a Blood Trail.  And ur so far away its hard to see where ut went. Things look a lot different from 300yrd away.

Offline grundy53

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2016, 12:43:25 PM »
Shot my bull last year right through the shoulders. Punched through both shoulders and recovered under the hide on far side. .300 win mag 200 grain Accubond.







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Offline deerslyr

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2016, 03:31:17 PM »
Gotta love when a bullet mushrooms like that grundy..

Offline coachcw

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2016, 04:11:50 PM »
Good performance  grundy
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Offline jdb

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2016, 04:37:07 PM »
Coach I know you shoot the vlds, have you ever recovered one?
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Offline GBoyd

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Re: Force required to break an elk shoulder
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2016, 04:41:06 PM »
So I'm going to be hunting this year with my .308. My thinking is that it should be fine with elk, but I'll need to determine my max distance based on the speed the bullet will be travelling.

Do you think that anything north of 2000 fps will be acceptable? 

 


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