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Author Topic: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?  (Read 21110 times)

Offline nwwanderer

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2016, 04:17:36 PM »
The department will tell you it has improved buck/doe ratio.  Granted.  On the other hand, single trait selection always has genetic consequences.  Tho the heritability of point number is low it does have an effect over time.  If you want to limit buck kill pick another criteria that increases the survival of genetic superior bucks.  Bucks with the most potential to settle does usually have bigger, wider, and pointier(?) antlers.  Shoot those three points as first antler bucks, most of the take is young, and you limit breeding success and potential.

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2016, 04:18:49 PM »
I think it's slop hunting, and is despicable, but NOT what is hurting the deer population in the Methow.   If there wasn't three point or better, the herd would be done!  Stick a fork in it. Done!    It's the only thing keeping a few deer alive.   A year like this year with essentially most of the upper age bucks harvested, and nothing but younger deer, and an over abundance of hunters.   There would be nothing to rebuild
  :yeah:  I have come to the conclusion that what many consider a "big" 2 is just a young buck with a 18-20" frame.  Give him a year and he will blossom into something usually.  Not saying all but the vast majority of the deer killed on the 2pt only permits (designed to cull old mature 2x2 deer) are just 1.5 yo deer.  Antler width and size do not equat to age  :twocents:
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Offline huntnphool

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2016, 04:19:17 PM »
I like that idea, to have a permit draw to allow someone to shoot a 2 pt.   :tup:
:yeah: I watched a BIG 2×? Sunday for 25+ minutes and couldn't tell if one antler tip was  bladed or a small crab claw. Buddy watched him the day before for over an hour with the same conclusion.

 Sounds like you guys could use a quality spotter. ;)
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Offline huntnphool

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2016, 04:25:02 PM »
I think it's slop hunting, and is despicable, but NOT what is hurting the deer population in the Methow.   If there wasn't three point or better, the herd would be done!  Stick a fork in it. Done!    It's the only thing keeping a few deer alive.   A year like this year with essentially most of the upper age bucks harvested, and nothing but younger deer, and an over abundance of hunters.   There would be nothing to rebuild
  :yeah:  I have come to the conclusion that what many consider a "big" 2 is just a young buck with a 18-20" frame.  Give him a year and he will blossom into something usually.  Not saying all but the vast majority of the deer killed on the 2pt only permits (designed to cull old mature 2x2 deer) are just 1.5 yo deer.  Antler width and size do not equat to age  :twocents:

 ;)
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Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2016, 04:33:10 PM »
Didn't say there weren't plenty out there.  That is obviously a mature deer.  Guess my point is eliminating the 3pt restriction but keeping a LONG general season that we have would kill off a very large portion of 1.5-2.5 yo deer
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Offline Buckmark

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2016, 04:40:26 PM »
This happens too much, people shooting mule deer and just checking for points after. I walked up on another dead buck that was shot on opening day that wasn't a 3pt. I called the game department when I found it on 10-16-2016. I don't think a 3pt min hurts the mule deer, but they could open up the mulie does or give more permits. The buck to doe ratio where I hunt is wayyyyy off!
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Offline JBar

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2016, 05:06:05 PM »
This is a good read on the subject  :twocents:

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule%20Deer%20Initiative/MULEDEER_ANTLERPOINTREGS_REVIE0006790.pdf

I just read through real quick but it seems WA is the only one that concluded the APR's work? Also it seems in the long term the APR's do not work or even make things worse but what if they rotated the APR's from 3 pt min for a year to 2pt only for 2 years? :dunno: I'm not a biologist so I'm just throwing this out there.
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Offline bobcat

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2016, 05:08:21 PM »
The WDFW biologists actually wanted to do away with the 3 point minimum several years ago, and it was in the recommendations when the 3 year plan was up for renewal, but it got voted down due to popular opinion.

Offline Boss .300 winmag

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2016, 05:27:16 PM »
Maybe the super 2 point tag should bounce around each year to other units instead of staying in Harrington and Roosevelt. Even then the purpose is to harvest older age class bucks not just the first dink 2 point a guy comes across. I don't think most hunters have the maturity to only shoot mature bucks.

Throw it in the "quality" deer category, Nov. 1-30 season, create a Washington State Record category for 2 points, I seriously doubt you will see anyone apply for it just to shoot a forkin horn.

I would put in for it, I live those big two points.  :mgun:
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Offline OutHouse

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2016, 05:30:37 PM »
So, based off some comments I've read I have to ask:

If the Methow Valley were to go draw only, or quotas, or some other cancellation of the general seasons, should that be done for both mule deer and whitetail?

I ask because I spend a lot of time up there and I don't see that whitetail numbers are down. Sure there was a couple really good years recently, but they seem to be doing the same as usual. In areas with good forage their numbers are high.

Offline cumminsbassguy

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2016, 05:31:08 PM »
Michigan has a series of tags you could buy, either restricted 4+ tag  AND a restricted 3+ tag in a combo. or a general deer tag which is any deer you want. there are also doe permits, both public and private tags.   the deer are whitetail only..    there are always deer of every size being shot.   also a price difference in the combo tags vs regular tag

Offline yakimarcher

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2016, 05:58:34 PM »
Mule deer should be by permit only to limit the hunting pressure, and any buck should be legal. IMO

Agreed, but I do absolutely hate to give something up to fish and game!

Offline Jimmy33

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2016, 06:13:28 PM »
I think people should have to choose the gums they want to hunt and then be issued a tag for that area.


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Offline Jimmy33

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2016, 06:13:42 PM »
Sorry...GMUs


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Offline bigmacc

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2016, 06:23:57 PM »
Mule deer should be by permit only to limit the hunting pressure, and any buck should be legal. IMO

I would support this as long as they have out a reasonable number of permits and by that I mean you should be able to have a buck tag every few years.

I'd say there should be enough tags issued so that people draw at least every other year, on average.

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,86231.msg1080089.html#msg1080089  ;)

A lot of good points AND ideas. I do like phools idea of an extended season but only being able to hunt units over there every other year or some of the ideas letting a limited amount of hunters into units whether by an odd/even system or some sort of drawing.  Whats true(at least for the Methow) is there are a lot more people hunting it and with that, unfortunately, comes   more mistakes and a few more "bad apples" also. 3 years ago our hunting party found 3 "2point mistakes" and witnessed one that we turned in that was shot from the cab of a truck, as mentioned know one really knows how many are being left out there. There are more people hunting less deer over there every year. Pre north cascades pass(mid 70,s) most people on the west side didn't even know where the "little town at the end of the road"(Winthrop) was or even Twisp for that matter. The herd was the pride and joy of the FISH and GAME dept and things were done to make sure the herd was thriving. Well now we have an over abundance of predators along with some new predators, we have a lot and I mean ALOT more people hunting the valley, yes, social media has helped that part and we have a Department of fish and wildlife now instead of a Fish and GAME dept. As far as the 3 point rule goes, yes I think it is one of the many contributors to the decline because of possibly a huge number of "mistakes" that are left to rot every year. All I know is something needs to be done to help the situation or things will just get worse. This herd once hovered between 30 to 35 thousand head (pre pass), last I heard it was around 10,000 give or take.

Offline Humptulips

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2016, 06:54:03 PM »
I am not a fan of multi point rules. I prefer any buck but If you are going to have a three point rule there should be a way to legally tag a mistake or just shoot a big two point if you wish.
Here is an idea:
Area open to three points, nothing changes but if you kill a two point you present it to WDFW and you can legally take it home but you forfeit next years deer hunt. Take a spike same thing but forfeit two years deer hunting.
Maybe pay a small fee to cover WDFWs cost of you not getting a deer tag next year.

It would voluntarily reduce hunter numbers and subsequent pressure. Reporting is the one bugaboo I can see but maybe something could be figured out.
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Offline Boss .300 winmag

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2016, 06:56:52 PM »
So, based off some comments I've read I have to ask:

If the Methow Valley were to go draw only, or quotas, or some other cancellation of the general seasons, should that be done for both mule deer and whitetail?

I ask because I spend a lot of time up there and I don't see that whitetail numbers are down. Sure there was a couple really good years recently, but they seem to be doing the same as usual. In areas with good forage their numbers are high.

How would you define the Methow Valley?
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Offline bigmacc

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2016, 07:12:14 PM »
I am not a fan of multi point rules. I prefer any buck but If you are going to have a three point rule there should be a way to legally tag a mistake or just shoot a big two point if you wish.
Here is an idea:
Area open to three points, nothing changes but if you kill a two point you present it to WDFW and you can legally take it home but you forfeit next years deer hunt. Take a spike same thing but forfeit two years deer hunting.
Maybe pay a small fee to cover WDFWs cost of you not getting a deer tag next year.

It would voluntarily reduce hunter numbers and subsequent pressure. Reporting is the one bugaboo I can see but maybe something could be figured out.


Hmmm......

Offline Axle

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2016, 07:18:10 PM »
The 3 point rule has been a success for Washington mulies. There is plenty of cover on the dry side for escapement. It can't be compared to what Oregon did many years ago because the dry side there doesn't compare to Washington's dry side.
The problem isn't too many hunters. The problem is - and has been for decades - too many darn predators! And we have a corrupt administration that wants to increase predator numbers.
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Offline huntandjeep

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2016, 07:20:43 PM »
I like that idea, to have a permit draw to allow someone to shoot a 2 pt.   :tup:
:yeah: I watched a BIG 2×? Sunday for 25+ minutes and couldn't tell if one antler tip was  bladed or a small crab claw. Buddy watched him the day before for over an hour with the same conclusion.

 Sounds like you guys could use a quality spotter. ;)
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Offline boneaddict

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2016, 07:21:59 PM »
The 3 point rule has been a success for Washington mulies. There is plenty of cover on the dry side for escapement. It can't be compared to what Oregon did many years ago because the dry side there doesn't compare to Washington's dry side.
The problem isn't too many hunters. The problem is - and has been for decades - too many darn predators! And we have a corrupt administration that wants to increase predator numbers.

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2016, 07:26:15 PM »
Obviously there should be some sort of rules whether it be a permit approach or something else but if there were no point restriction however that is accomplished there would be no wastage of recovered animals comparably considering all of the "hunters" that shoot realize it's not legal and keep hunting.With how much of this we see.

Offline bobcat

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2016, 07:29:19 PM »
Predators kill deer but so do people. The reality is predators are plentiful and that's not going to change. So if deer populations are decreasing at a rate that is too high all we can do is decrease the number that hunters take.

Offline Ridgeratt

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Re: Is 3 pt RULE HURTING MULE DEER POPULATIONS?
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2016, 07:34:31 PM »
I spent the week from the 15th to the 23rd hunting mulie's in an area I have hunted since I put the first tag on a deer back in 1966. My hunting pardner and I saw numerous deer and during the week we only encountered 1 legal 3x2 that he had to x-ray to find the third point on one side. But we did see becks every day most were either spikes or small 2 point's.
We spoke to several folks who saw few if any deer. The quality of the Mule deer hunting has declined greatly since I started hunting the area. A large part of that could be blamed on loss of habitat. Everyone wants there piece of the country, myself included. Where there used to be a few houses in the bottom's on the county roads now there is a place every 10 acre's and they all have a dog or many more. When the mule deer used to migrate to the lowlands to winter now they encounter no place to go.
Granted I will still see a few beauties coming up the next couple of weeks during the other deer season but not like it used to be. The few large deer left are competing with the small bucks and due to the amount of smaller bucks I believe the Genetics of the larger bucks has for the most part been breed out of the pool.

On a sidebar I do have a question about the tribal tags and with out turning it into a whizzing contest if a tribal member could pm me to answer.

 

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