collapse
A Hunting Trip of a lifetime in the Wenaha Tucannon Wilderness! Extreme Elk Magazine

Author Topic: 875 yard .308 Elk kill  (Read 32435 times)

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 6777
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #165 on: February 13, 2017, 08:17:25 AM »
Are you high? If you want to say a .308 isn't LR medicine, that's one thing. But saying you can hit it in the heart and lose the animal isn't your argument

You guys simply don't know what you are talking about.  You have probably been watching too much hunting on television wherein every elk that the hero touches with a bullet tips over and dies.  The dirty little secret that really isn't so secret is that what you get to see is actually put together from cuts from footage that leave out, as Paul Harvey used to say, The Rest of the Story.

A jacketed bullet that does not expand is not going to be any more lethal than would be shooting an elk with an arrow w/a field point on it.  Or as the Ballistic Engineer form Sierra I referenced in an earlier thread put it:  ... would be no more immediately lethal than stabbing them with a pencil. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 08:24:22 AM by JDHasty »

Offline BULLBLASTER

  • Chris McCarthy
  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Old Salt
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 6073
  • Volleyfire brigade
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #166 on: February 13, 2017, 08:53:17 AM »
Wow! 

I am so glad and feel very blessed that you are taking the time to educate us all with your unwavering knowledge hasty...  :puke: :puke: :puke:

You still haven't explained how the numerous elk and other animals shot with "target" bullets have ever died. By your posts it seems like there should still be thousands upon thousands of animals out there with pencil hole scars!

Online jasnt

  • Predator hunter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2010
  • Posts: 4432
  • Location: deer park
  • Groups: WSTA
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #167 on: February 13, 2017, 09:00:32 AM »
A bullet that dosent expand still has kynetic energy. What happens when you shoot a milk jug with an fmj?
🐾
Round ct. 299
"... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you... we are in charge of our Attitudes."
Charles R. Swindoll

Online Bob33

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 17170
  • Groups: SCI, RMEF, NRA
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #168 on: February 13, 2017, 09:01:52 AM »
Unlike pencils and arrows, bullets create hydrostatic shock even at velocities too slow to allow full expansion. The shock creates trauma and damages blood vessels in its wake. This effect can easily demonstrated by shooting a handgun bullet into a media such as ballistic gelatin.

To suggest that a big game bullet travelling at supersonic velocities which penetrates the heart or lungs of a big animal won’t kill it is foolish and ignorant of how bullets work.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline dontgetcrabs

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2009
  • Posts: 1750
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #169 on: February 13, 2017, 09:03:00 AM »
You guys simply don't know what you are talking about.  You have probably been watching too much hunting on television wherein every elk that the hero touches with a bullet tips over and dies.  The dirty little secret that really isn't so secret is that what you get to see is actually put together from cuts from footage that leave out, as Paul Harvey used to say, The Rest of the Story.

A jacketed bullet that does not expand is not going to be any more lethal than would be shooting an elk with an arrow w/a field point on it.  Or as the Ballistic Engineer form Sierra I referenced in an earlier thread put it:  ... would be no more immediately lethal than stabbing them with a pencil.


Do you believe the things you post or are you just trolling? 

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 6777
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #170 on: February 13, 2017, 09:08:45 AM »
Wow! 

I am so glad and feel very blessed that you are taking the time to educate us all with your unwavering knowledge hasty...  :puke: :puke: :puke:

You still haven't explained how the numerous elk and other animals shot with "target" bullets have ever died. By your posts it seems like there should still be thousands upon thousands of animals out there with pencil hole scars!

I have explained adnauseam that there is a difference between what is know as anecdotally derived conclusions and statistically valid conclusions that are derived from data that has been collected and analyzed using the "scientific method."   

The problem your average shade tree ballistics expert has is that they cannot hope to have the resources available to get to a valid conclusion and another issue is that they tend to discount data that does not support their desired outcome. 

I have never said that "numerous elk and other animals shot with "target" bullets have never died,"  that is you trying to set up a what is known as a straw man.  I have said that Sierra engineers have done exponentially more testing than  any shade tree ballistician and their conclusions were based on enough data to give their conclusions statistical probability of being valid  that your small set of data lacks.   

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 6777
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #171 on: February 13, 2017, 09:09:38 AM »
Even a 22 cal hole threw the heart would be a dead elk.

Also a 1 moa rifle should shoot 5" at 500 with out wind. If your getting an 18" group at 500 you may need a lesson On parallax. I've never known a long range guy to be happy with a moa gun. I average 2.5"-3" at 500 with wind but still not happy with that. Always chasing that better group.

That would be through, not threw.  Anyway: No it is not, not with a bullet that doesn't expand!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 09:15:09 AM by JDHasty »

Online Bob33

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 17170
  • Groups: SCI, RMEF, NRA
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #172 on: February 13, 2017, 09:12:20 AM »
Even a 22 cal hole threw the heart would be a dead elk.

Also a 1 moa rifle should shoot 5" at 500 with out wind. If your getting an 18" group at 500 you may need a lesson On parallax. I've never known a long range guy to be happy with a moa gun. I average 2.5"-3" at 500 with wind but still not happy with that. Always chasing that better group.

That would be trough, not threw.  Anyway: No it is not, not with a bullet that doesn't expand!
That would be "through", not "trough".
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 6777
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #173 on: February 13, 2017, 09:12:45 AM »
Unlike pencils and arrows, bullets create hydrostatic shock even at velocities too slow to allow full expansion. The shock creates trauma and damages blood vessels in its wake. This effect can easily demonstrated by shooting a handgun bullet into a media such as ballistic gelatin.

To suggest that a big game bullet travelling at supersonic velocities which penetrates the heart or lungs of a big animal won’t kill it is foolish and ignorant of how bullets work.

It may or may not kill it.  It PROBABLY will not kill it soon enough to recover the animal if it does kill it though.  But just because an elk is shot through the heart with a bullet that does not expand that does not mean it is going to tip over right where it is standing. 

Offline Jpmiller

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2016
  • Posts: 1476
  • Location: Wilkeson
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #174 on: February 13, 2017, 09:13:27 AM »
Don't we have the empirical evidence at post 1 of this thread that a bullet from a .308 can kill an elk quickly  at long range?

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 6777
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #175 on: February 13, 2017, 09:13:43 AM »
A bullet that dosent expand still has kynetic energy. What happens when you shoot a milk jug with an fmj?

Depends on striking velocity

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 6777
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #176 on: February 13, 2017, 09:14:32 AM »
You guys simply don't know what you are talking about.  You have probably been watching too much hunting on television wherein every elk that the hero touches with a bullet tips over and dies.  The dirty little secret that really isn't so secret is that what you get to see is actually put together from cuts from footage that leave out, as Paul Harvey used to say, The Rest of the Story.

A jacketed bullet that does not expand is not going to be any more lethal than would be shooting an elk with an arrow w/a field point on it.  Or as the Ballistic Engineer form Sierra I referenced in an earlier thread put it:  ... would be no more immediately lethal than stabbing them with a pencil.

I deal in fact


Do you believe the things you post or are you just trolling?

Offline coop2424

  • Site Sponsor
  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Posts: 1414
  • Location: Spirit Lake, ID
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #177 on: February 13, 2017, 09:15:11 AM »
I am glad that I now know that animals hearts can still function with holes through them!!  I didn't realize we were dealing with this kind of super animal.. Guess I need to rethink my weapon of choice.

Offline dontgetcrabs

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2009
  • Posts: 1750
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #178 on: February 13, 2017, 09:16:42 AM »
You guys simply don't know what you are talking about.  You have probably been watching too much hunting on television wherein every elk that the hero touches with a bullet tips over and dies.  The dirty little secret that really isn't so secret is that what you get to see is actually put together from cuts from footage that leave out, as Paul Harvey used to say, The Rest of the Story.

A jacketed bullet that does not expand is not going to be any more lethal than would be shooting an elk with an arrow w/a field point on it.  Or as the Ballistic Engineer form Sierra I referenced in an earlier thread put it:  ... would be no more immediately lethal than stabbing them with a pencil.

I deal in fact


Do you believe the things you post or are you just trolling?

No you deal in ignorance.

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 6777
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: 875 yard .308 Elk kill
« Reply #179 on: February 13, 2017, 09:19:02 AM »
I am glad that I now know that animals hearts can still function with holes through them!!  I didn't realize we were dealing with this kind of super animal.. Guess I need to rethink my weapon of choice.

If you are one of the Volleyfire Brigade who advocate in favor of mag dumping at elk at ranges approaching a quarter mile w/an AR 15, or if you are sending hail Mary shots at two to three times that that distance w/a 308 then you very well might want to reconsider whether you want to continue down that road.   

 

ElkNut Outdoor Productions

* Recent Topics

Lion attack in North bend? by jasnt
[Today at 08:23:13 AM]


Bearpaw Season - Spring 2018 by Gringo31
[Today at 08:19:32 AM]


How often do blacktail go to water? by 7mmfan
[Today at 08:18:36 AM]


WTS Ruger American rifle by cavanaughcowboy
[Today at 08:16:44 AM]


Bowtech assasin by Funkadunk7
[Today at 08:16:00 AM]


WTS Husqvarna 336FR brush cutter by cavanaughcowboy
[Today at 08:12:12 AM]


WTS generator by cavanaughcowboy
[Today at 08:08:49 AM]


2018 Special Permits: Drawing Results by Timberstalker
[Today at 08:00:35 AM]


Firearm engraving by cougkilr
[Today at 07:48:37 AM]


Forges by jasnt
[Today at 07:36:08 AM]


Business Trip Turkey Bonanza by jackelope
[Today at 07:29:49 AM]


Farm Raised Pork and Bacon Delivered to your door by Whitpirate
[Today at 07:28:24 AM]


2018 Huckleberry spring bear thread by Gringo31
[Today at 07:13:57 AM]


Stevens 301 Single Shot Break Action Shotgun by ADAMS
[Today at 06:49:27 AM]


bad day in Neah bay by MADMAX
[Today at 06:11:56 AM]


FS: Mathews DXT by adamR
[Today at 05:59:57 AM]


FS: Bear Done Deal by adamR
[Today at 05:59:20 AM]


Western Washington odds/evens? by Muleycrazy01
[Yesterday at 11:36:15 PM]


WTS canoe by couesbitten
[Yesterday at 11:18:19 PM]


Muzzleloader Sight Inquiry - by lokidog
[Yesterday at 11:16:42 PM]