collapse
GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR GPS MAP Bearpaw Outfitters, Quality Hunts for over 30 Years

Author Topic: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info  (Read 2200 times)

Offline wheels

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 848
  • Location: pacific washington
mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« on: January 13, 2017, 10:12:57 AM »
i was just listening to to podcast(meat eater) and he had the founder for rocky mountain goat alliance and he was saying the biggest thing brings down or keeps down  the numbers is the taking of a nanny he was pitching some kind of education and info to tell the difference between billy and a  nanny  i think good idea  maybe something like the  bear test  for other states .
thoughts ?

Offline Tbar

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1525
  • Location: Whatcom county
  • That Boy Ain't Right
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2017, 10:16:29 AM »
Alaska has an online test, should be adopted by Wa. Lack of education is the number one reason so many nannies get harvested in this state.

Offline Katmai Guy

  • IBEW, Local 46
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 562
  • Location: Covington
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2017, 10:18:16 AM »
Not sure if the harvest of nannys is due to mis identification or the fact that a person has drawn an OIL tag and has only seen nannys or cant get to the billies and decides to shoot one.   It is an Any goat tag.
"Keep shootin, when there's lead in the air, there's hope"

Offline Tbar

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1525
  • Location: Whatcom county
  • That Boy Ain't Right

Offline Tbar

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1525
  • Location: Whatcom county
  • That Boy Ain't Right
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2017, 10:29:06 AM »
Not sure if the harvest of nannys is due to mis identification or the fact that a person has drawn an OIL tag and has only seen nannys or cant get to the billies and decides to shoot one.   It is an Any goat tag.
One of the reasons is an any goat tag is because of the difficulty identifying .  If you care about conservation and hope some day it will not be an oil tag, the wise thing to do is lay off of nannies whenever possible. 

Offline zoorda

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 103
  • Location: Puyallup
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2017, 09:50:23 AM »
When I drew my Mt Goat tag in 2015 in Washington, I was given a goat gender identification pamphlet and a dvd with the test. They were labeled Alaskan Fish and Game.

Offline wheels

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 848
  • Location: pacific washington
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2017, 10:10:25 AM »
oh that is good to hear

Offline blacktailer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2007
  • Posts: 1152
  • Location: Lynden
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 03:41:55 PM »
Good words TBar.  I think a loot of tag holders just think its not quite as condoned when shooting a nanny vs a billy, even though being perfectly legal. Kind of like shooting a sow without cubs.  The shooting of a nanny when it comes to computer modeling and population dynamics has a big effect on future tag allocation where tags are slim and mt. goat reproduction is slow.
"A lazy man works twice as hard"

Offline Katmai Guy

  • IBEW, Local 46
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 562
  • Location: Covington
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 04:36:16 PM »
I'm all for a Billies only tag, but it will never be more that an OIL in WA due to the fact that naturally occurring populations as we have here grow slower than introduced  populations according to a study I found online.  If I have time I'll try to find it, was interesting.
  Also goes back to to many hunters, not enough animals. :twocents:
"Keep shootin, when there's lead in the air, there's hope"

Offline RB

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1624
  • Location: Arlington, washington
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2017, 11:12:40 PM »
When I drew my Mt Goat tag in 2015 in Washington, I was given a goat gender identification pamphlet and a dvd with the test. They were labeled Alaskan Fish and Game.

 :yeah:

Me too  :)
IAFF #3728

Bob Beam

Offline RB

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1624
  • Location: Arlington, washington
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2017, 11:20:39 PM »
Not sure if the harvest of nannys is due to mis identification or the fact that a person has drawn an OIL tag and has only seen nannys or cant get to the billies and decides to shoot one.   It is an Any goat tag.
One of the reasons is an any goat tag is because of the difficulty identifying .  If you care about conservation and hope some day it will not be an oil tag, the wise thing to do is lay off of nannies whenever possible.

If a guy has the time it is fairly easy  to identify a Billy using a spotting scope, wait for him to turn and look for the scrotum. Look at diameter at base of horns and curvature, nannies turn slightly at the ends. In Washington there are very few tags and odds are even if there are 2-3 tags in the area not every tag holder is going to be on the same ridge at the same time, so it should be fairly easy to take your time and know 100% it is a Billy.  :twocents:
IAFF #3728

Bob Beam

Offline blacktailer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2007
  • Posts: 1152
  • Location: Lynden
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2017, 09:24:31 AM »
Agreed RB.  It sure should be with minimal effort.  Pretty amazing how many nannies have been killed in our region the past few years.  A couple of them I know were mistakes but wonder if the others simply didn't know or didn't care...  Either way it's a personal decision but definitely affects the management of a fragile species when harvest data is entered...
"A lazy man works twice as hard"

Offline j_h_nimrod

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 996
  • Location: Humptulips, WA
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2017, 10:37:57 AM »
It still happens, ID is fairly easy in most circumstances but there are times when it is not as easy as sitting back with your spotter and making the determination. I know on Baranof Is. when they went to a point quota after a couple years harvest had shifted much more heavily toward billys but there were still instances where people still shot nannys. Some just did not care while others still had a hard time telling even after the ID training they made available and I know of a few instances where the hunter was experienced and just made a mistake.

Another factor down here is age of the hunter and the fact someone has been throwing in their $ for 20+ years and finally draws that OIL. Most of those people are gonna shoot whatever is available because they will may never get a second chance. My observations of a small cross section of the tag holders has been they are not even really into hunting anymore, they just sent in their application every year like a lottery ticket. If they get a 3-year old nanny they are stoked!

Offline jackelope

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 34566
  • Location: Duvall, WA
  • Groups: WSB RMGA NRA RMEF BHA
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2017, 11:38:06 AM »
Not sure if the harvest of nannys is due to mis identification or the fact that a person has drawn an OIL tag and has only seen nannys or cant get to the billies and decides to shoot one.   It is an Any goat tag.
One of the reasons is an any goat tag is because of the difficulty identifying .  If you care about conservation and hope some day it will not be an oil tag, the wise thing to do is lay off of nannies whenever possible.

If a guy has the time it is fairly easy  to identify a Billy using a spotting scope, wait for him to turn and look for the scrotum. Look at diameter at base of horns and curvature, nannies turn slightly at the ends. In Washington there are very few tags and odds are even if there are 2-3 tags in the area not every tag holder is going to be on the same ridge at the same time, so it should be fairly easy to take your time and know 100% it is a Billy.  :twocents:

Wait for them to pee is the 100% way to tell if you can't see the balls.

Not sure if the harvest of nannys is due to mis identification or the fact that a person has drawn an OIL tag and has only seen nannys or cant get to the billies and decides to shoot one.   It is an Any goat tag.
One of the reasons is an any goat tag is because of the difficulty identifying .  If you care about conservation and hope some day it will not be an oil tag, the wise thing to do is lay off of nannies whenever possible. 
Well said.
If it was a billy only tag, it would be a crime if someone killed a nanny and that's the problem I guess. Proper ID is tough. Just like bears...you have to know what you're looking at in order to tell boar or sow.

 
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline jackelope

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 34566
  • Location: Duvall, WA
  • Groups: WSB RMGA NRA RMEF BHA
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2017, 11:39:30 AM »
Agreed RB.  It sure should be with minimal effort.  Pretty amazing how many nannies have been killed in our region the past few years.  A couple of them I know were mistakes but wonder if the others simply didn't know or didn't care...  Either way it's a personal decision but definitely affects the management of a fragile species when harvest data is entered...

Someone sees a goat and has a OIL tag in their pocket and just wants to fill it. Sees a goat, sees big horns, gets excited, doesn't want to risk losing the shot opportunity, don't care if it's a nanny or a billy as long as they fill their tag, greed, etc.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline RB

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1624
  • Location: Arlington, washington
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2017, 09:09:24 PM »
Agreed RB.  It sure should be with minimal effort.  Pretty amazing how many nannies have been killed in our region the past few years.  A couple of them I know were mistakes but wonder if the others simply didn't know or didn't care...  Either way it's a personal decision but definitely affects the management of a fragile species when harvest data is entered...

Someone sees a goat and has a OIL tag in their pocket and just wants to fill it. Sees a goat, sees big horns, gets excited, doesn't want to risk losing the shot opportunity, don't care if it's a nanny or a billy as long as they fill their tag, greed, etc.

This Nanny I believe was actually bigger than the Billy I shot, both in horn length and body size, but even if this was the only goat seen I would not shoot it even though by the book I can. It is a personal choice even after waiting over 20 years to get the tag. Yes I understand there are times a guy just does not have the time to set up a scope and watch to make 100% due to terrain and other factors, but it is better for the overall good of the herd to do the best to identify a Billy/Nanny.

IAFF #3728

Bob Beam

Offline jackelope

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 34566
  • Location: Duvall, WA
  • Groups: WSB RMGA NRA RMEF BHA
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2017, 09:52:43 AM »
I think it's not too uncommon for mature nanny goats to have longer horns than some billies. The mass is where the difference is.
Might be wrong there. There have been some nanny pics posted on here with some real long horns.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline j_h_nimrod

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 996
  • Location: Humptulips, WA
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2017, 04:34:33 PM »
I think it's not too uncommon for mature nanny goats to have longer horns than some billies. The mass is where the difference is.
Might be wrong there. There have been some nanny pics posted on here with some real long horns.


It is fairly common, I have seen (put tape on ) a few nannies with horns over 11" and heard of some in the 12" range.

Offline Buzz2401

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Posts: 907
  • Location: Tacoma
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2017, 04:40:32 PM »
Make it Billy only but if you do actually shoot a nanny you just lose a certain amount of points towards other tags you have been putting in for.  Say maybe you lose 4 points across the spectrum.  That way there is incentive to not shoot nannies yet you aren't crucifying a guy who makes a mistake or just can't find a billy.

Offline Tbar

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1525
  • Location: Whatcom county
  • That Boy Ain't Right
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2017, 07:59:27 PM »
Make it Billy only but if you do actually shoot a nanny you just lose a certain amount of points towards other tags you have been putting in for.  Say maybe you lose 4 points across the spectrum.  That way there is incentive to not shoot nannies yet you aren't crucifying a guy who makes a mistake or just can't find a billy.
It's just not that easy.  A Billy only season is not feasible for a number of reasons.  In some cases the shooting of a nanny is (and should) be celebrated. Taking points or punishing someone would not change things. In a perfect world one would train accordingly  (some do), educate themselves (some do), and pay close attention to conservation  (again some do). Many do none of the above however! The quota with assigned points is loosely in play, that model makes sense. 
The reality is goats live in the most brutal environment in our region. This is not for everyone but anyone can draw a tag.  To me sharing the air with these majestic creatures is always worth the price of admission. That said with the reality of likelihood of drawing, actually the likelihood of not drawing is the reality.  When many people draw they are well past their prime and have paid their dues many times over.  Should we discount or punish someone a generation or two older?  There are many factors that would be wrong to generalize or judge (that is just one example).

All that said, far too many nannies are being harvested unnecessarily! Although it may not ever be something besides an oil tag, people are losing opportunity.  This thread is an excellent example of what we need.  Education of tag holders on both conservation and identification will more than likely have the desired effect of expanded opportunity.  If tag holders are aware of the residual effects of nanny harvest I really feel the majority would do their due diligence to target Billy's. This still would not eliminate nanny harvest but something more than a permit packet with literature would be nice.

Offline Buzz2401

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Posts: 907
  • Location: Tacoma
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2017, 08:10:03 PM »
That's why I thought the point deduction was kind of a good idea then they have the choice and the consequences aren't really that bad.  Honestly with the lottery system that are point system is it wouldn't really change anyones odds much besides perception of a better chance.

Offline j_h_nimrod

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 996
  • Location: Humptulips, WA
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2017, 08:20:04 PM »
Make it Billy only but if you do actually shoot a nanny you just lose a certain amount of points towards other tags you have been putting in for.  Say maybe you lose 4 points across the spectrum.  That way there is incentive to not shoot nannies yet you aren't crucifying a guy who makes a mistake or just can't find a billy.
It's just not that easy.  A Billy only season is not feasible for a number of reasons.  In some cases the shooting of a nanny is (and should) be celebrated. Taking points or punishing someone would not change things. In a perfect world one would train accordingly  (some do), educate themselves (some do), and pay close attention to conservation  (again some do). Many do none of the above however! The quota with assigned points is loosely in play, that model makes sense. 
The reality is goats live in the most brutal environment in our region. This is not for everyone but anyone can draw a tag.  To me sharing the air with these majestic creatures is always worth the price of admission. That said with the reality of likelihood of drawing, actually the likelihood of not drawing is the reality.  When many people draw they are well past their prime and have paid their dues many times over.  Should we discount or punish someone a generation or two older?  There are many factors that would be wrong to generalize or judge (that is just one example).

All that said, far too many nannies are being harvested unnecessarily! Although it may not ever be something besides an oil tag, people are losing opportunity.  This thread is an excellent example of what we need.  Education of tag holders on both conservation and identification will more than likely have the desired effect of expanded opportunity.  If tag holders are eaware of the residual effects of nanny harvest I really feel the majority would do their due diligence to target Billy's. This still would not eliminate nanny harvest but something more than a permit packet with literature would be nice.

This is just not so, there is no incentive other than moral superiority to not harvest a nanny. Especially when nannys taste so much better than most Billy's!

Also consider that there is an annual total number of tags less than 1% of the total population. Regardless of what the statisticians say, the minuscule nanny harvest is not a real factor in the population growth and dynamics of the species in WA state. There are much more crucial considerations for population growth in goat populations.

Offline Tbar

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1525
  • Location: Whatcom county
  • That Boy Ain't Right
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2017, 08:32:44 PM »
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=goatidentification.harvestmales
JH I'm not trying to argue. There is no intended moral superiority either from me.  The reality is nanny harvest is a factor in tag allocations, period.  If, and I emphasize if,  there is a push for a higher harvest rate (4% is sustainable)  there has to be a heavily weighted history of responsible billy harvest. 

Offline shanevg

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2008
  • Posts: 2276
  • Location: L-Town (Lynden), WA
    • https://www.facebook.com/shanevg
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2017, 12:23:33 PM »
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=goatidentification.harvestmales
JH I'm not trying to argue. There is no intended moral superiority either from me.  The reality is nanny harvest is a factor in tag allocations, period.  If, and I emphasize if,  there is a push for a higher harvest rate (4% is sustainable)  there has to be a heavily weighted history of responsible billy harvest.

 :yeah:

One thing a lot of people aren't aware of is that nannies have higher reproductive rates the older they get.  Most nannies are not reproducing until age 4 or 5 and can and do successfully reproduce until age 12-14.  I see posts of hunters who shoot nannies saying they shot a "dry nanny" when in reality that more than likely means they shot a young nanny which is even worse for the population.

Offline White Pass Outfitters

  • White Pass Outfitters
  • Site Ad Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (-1)
  • Hunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 218
  • Location: selah
    • Kent Dinelt
Re: mt goat gender ID test/helpfull info
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2017, 08:38:13 AM »
Go with an outfitter, best chance of getting the best Billy out of your tag. Just my opinion.
White Pass Outfitters

 

* Recent Topics

Land of BT Forkies by Eric M
[Today at 01:51:28 AM]


Fly to get pup or have puppy flown in? by Schmalzfam
[Today at 01:45:25 AM]


Newbie questions by optic2
[Today at 12:10:26 AM]


Nosler accubond 300 wsm 180gn ammo by shootem
[Yesterday at 11:23:02 PM]


Impala score? by demontang
[Yesterday at 11:17:26 PM]


Looking for gunsmith Auburn/Kent erea by shootem
[Yesterday at 10:53:38 PM]


Inexpensive camo gear by fishnfur
[Yesterday at 10:52:12 PM]


Bear calling question by carpsniperg2
[Yesterday at 10:43:11 PM]


Purchasing reloads for 7mm magnum - accubonds by O. hemionus
[Yesterday at 10:39:32 PM]


WTS Cylinder Wood Stove & Montana Canvas Wall Tent by Griz231
[Yesterday at 10:35:34 PM]


White River Elk Tag by RB
[Yesterday at 10:30:34 PM]


A few pics from our first 2017 group of drop camp hunters by Twispriver
[Yesterday at 10:24:26 PM]


Found this in the woods today. by PastorJoel
[Yesterday at 10:23:55 PM]


Mule deer calls by Jimmy33
[Yesterday at 10:07:17 PM]


The gettin's good on sierra trading post by Brad Harshman
[Yesterday at 10:07:14 PM]


New Blacktail restrictions coming for Minot Peak GMU 660 by steeleywhopper
[Yesterday at 09:49:37 PM]


Any luck with Blackhorn 209 by Mallardmasher
[Yesterday at 09:46:00 PM]


stick em trip by bush_beater
[Yesterday at 09:33:40 PM]


FREE MOUNTAIN HOUSE MEAL!!!! by JKEEN33
[Yesterday at 09:23:21 PM]


I need a sleeping system? by Shawn Ryan
[Yesterday at 09:19:49 PM]