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Author Topic: Multiple tags Drawn  (Read 7596 times)

Offline Allen23

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2017, 08:50:02 PM »
Well it might be worth concerning your self with the "trouble" or drawing a tag in Washington, if there weren't people drawing multiple tags in one year with out being able to return the one they didnt want back to the pool. In my opinion it's very obvious that we that choose to hunt have to pay to play. By that I mean if they are only going to let us fill one tag a year we should only be able to put in for one, but fish and game will never use common sense like that because they get to reap the benefits of making us start all over again with buying points after the ones we can use go to waste. I think it would be simple if we got to prioritize our hunts just like we do our units. If we want to be drawn for the quality bill before we are drawn for a cow or bull elk hunt then we mark it down as our first preference to be drawn. If we get drawn for our first choice we are removed from the other pools, thus increasing the odds in those pools. Think about it let's say there are 100 big bull tags in eastern Wa. That would be 200 less people you would have to compete with for antlerless or bull elk tags.
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Offline huntbow

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2017, 10:02:17 PM »
I like Allen23's idea, just have the Quality tags drawn first, Bull second and Cow third.  If you draw a Quality tag it takes you out of the drawing for the other two. BUT, since i cant make the rules but have to play by them, here's my game.  Preference point through the 3 categories (Quality, Bull and Cow) and only put in to draw for ONE.  example, currently i have 13 bull points, 5 Quality and 1 Cow.  The next tag i put in for will be a Bull tag, until i draw that tag i will build preference points for Quality and Cow.  I know i may not draw as many tags as someone who tries to draw all three every year but i know i have a pretty good shot at drawing a tag when i want it without having to worry about starting over in another category by double drawing. 
What if i don't draw one?  Plenty of other opportunity, Idaho or Colorado OTC tags.  I can hunt Washington another year.
If you put in and draw multiple tags that's your choice and not mine.  However, I don't feel that points should be given back in that circumstance just for the fact that others have already pointed out "point creep". There are different ways to play their game and this is mine.

Offline OutHouse

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2017, 10:08:51 AM »
I've heard this story so many times it raises the suspicion that the system is rigged. All the guys who draw a bull tag get a cow tag but who would go for the cow over the bull? Sounds like they know the hunter will take the bull leaving the cow tag unfilled, and also ensuring no other hunter gets a chance at that cow (through the draw system anyway). Seems like a management scheme.

Offline Bob33

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2017, 10:11:26 AM »
It's unfortunate the system allows multiple permits to be drawn by someone, although I read several years ago that the number of applicants who draw multiple permits for the same specie is actually quite small.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline mburrows

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2017, 10:36:11 AM »
I dont really like that you can draw multiple tags either but mainly because it takes a tag away from another guy that may want your bull tag if youve drawn a bull and quality tag. I have to believe that this doesnt hapoen very often though. And if you dont fill that quality tag at least you've still got a chance during the bull tag season.

Offline Browndawg

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2017, 12:08:06 PM »
Glad I saw this. I've got 6 points for each, and I'd hate to draw multiple. I'm thinking I just might put in for Antlerless and buy points for the Quality and Bull. I'd hate to have to switch units to hunt for a Quality Bull, and eat all my Antlerless points in the unit I usually hunt. West Side Guy.

Offline Bob33

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2017, 12:14:32 PM »
Glad I saw this. I've got 6 points for each, and I'd hate to draw multiple. I'm thinking I just might put in for Antlerless and buy points for the Quality and Bull. I'd hate to have to switch units to hunt for a Quality Bull, and eat all my Antlerless points in the unit I usually hunt. West Side Guy.
With odds of drawing a quality permit with six points quite low, I'd think twice about sitting out a year for the very unlikely possibility of drawing multiple permits.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline blackveltbowhunter

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2017, 01:18:32 PM »
 :yeah:..... last year was the first year ever "ghosting" points for me. And I am in double digits for elk.

I understand the frustration of getting zeroed out, but have little sympathy for it. I know of dozens of permits that are wasted every year. Not wasted as in the hunter tried and didnt fill a tag, wasted as in the hunter didnt even hunt it and often had no or little intention of hunting it in the first place. Not knocking it the system is in place and allows it. I wish we would go back to pre cash grab permit system. Then guys who genuinely wanted a antlerless permit are not competing with guys who throw in "just in case" often with stacked points from waiting prior years for quality permits.

I havent accrued any antlerless points since the inception, and till last year doubled down on bull and quality, but at this point I would be dissapointed if I threw snake eyes and got both in one season.

Offline sumpnz

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2017, 01:34:43 PM »
I'll keep ghosting my quality tags and applying for cow tags until my hunting partners decide they don't want to hunt where we do anymore.  There aren't any quality tags for that unit, so if I drew the only way I'd get to use the tag is by either ditching them, or drawing a tag that had an earlier season and then hunting it solo.

Offline RadSav

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2017, 02:13:08 PM »
I've been applying for WA special hunts since before I was old enough to buy cigarettes.  That was a long, long, long time ago!  Not only have I never drawn two tags in a year...I'm still waiting for a tag that has horns or antlers on it. :chuckle:
He asked, Do you ever give a short simple answer?  I replied, "Nope."

Offline M_ray

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2017, 02:17:49 PM »
I think it should stay same.  People get to choose if they want points or not.  If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag.  A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years.  Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years.  2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.

If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it  :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it.  :twocents:
DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed here are not those of HW Management, Admins, Mods or Myself... But they are the opinions of Elvis who has revealed them to me through the medium of my pet hamster, Lee Harvey Oswald...


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Offline Bob33

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2017, 02:38:47 PM »
I think it should stay same.  People get to choose if they want points or not.  If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag.  A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years.  Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years.  2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.

If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it  :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it.  :twocents:
"NOIL" permits. ;)

In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.

“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.

Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.

Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline sumpnz

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2017, 03:23:54 PM »
I think it should stay same.  People get to choose if they want points or not.  If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag.  A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years.  Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years.  2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.

If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it  :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it.  :twocents:
"NOIL" permits. ;)

In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.

“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.

Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.

Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.

How many raffle tickets would it take to get better odds?

Offline Bob33

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2017, 03:29:50 PM »
I think it should stay same.  People get to choose if they want points or not.  If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag.  A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years.  Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years.  2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.

If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it  :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it.  :twocents:
"NOIL" permits. ;)

In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.

“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.

Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.

Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.

How many raffle tickets would it take to get better odds?
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/raffles/big_game_raffle_ticket_sales.pdf

If my eyeballs and math are good, there were 5,526 moose raffle tickets sold last year. It would take about 30 tickets to get 1 in 180 odds, and 157 to get 1 in 35 odds. Tickets for moose are $6 each.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline sumpnz

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2017, 03:45:56 PM »
Aren't there 2 moose tags in the raffle?  Which would cut the required tickets in half for the 1:180 and 1:35 odds.  So 15 and 79 respectively.

Offline M_ray

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2017, 03:52:54 PM »
I think it should stay same.  People get to choose if they want points or not.  If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag.  A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years.  Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years.  2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.

If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it  :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it.  :twocents:
"NOIL" permits. ;)

In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.

“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.

Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.

Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.

Now consider how many of your numbers include people that put in for all three or all five if you include antlerless moose and ewe ram, I know I do. Take those people out of each category and make them choose just one and your odds will be even better than you have figured. You may find in a few years that those who choose to go for a cow elk will be drawing every year! Not to mention it will eliminate the cow tags going unused because someone has also drawn a bull tag choosing to eat the cow tag that someone else would be happy to have.  ;)
DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed here are not those of HW Management, Admins, Mods or Myself... But they are the opinions of Elvis who has revealed them to me through the medium of my pet hamster, Lee Harvey Oswald...


MB

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Offline baker5150

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2017, 03:57:52 PM »
Easy solution.

Just let the tags be filled. If you draw multiple Elk tags, you get to fill multiple elk tags.

Offline M_ray

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2017, 04:15:38 PM »

I think it should stay same.  People get to choose if they want points or not.  If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag.  A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years.  Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years.  2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.

If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it  :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it.  :twocents:
"NOIL" permits. ;)

In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.

“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.

Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.

Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.






BTW lets take your odds of drawing and really look at the implied probability percentage of drawing and see if you still like the way it looks
For 1 to 180 odds for winning;

Probability of:
Winning = (0.0055) or 0.5525%
Losing = (0.9945) or 99.4475%



So yes after looking at a 99.4475% chance that you will not be drawn? then yes you can go a lifetime and never see an oil tag.  :tup:

Quote
Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor.


 Also I am not saying eliminate points I'm saying eliminate the number of people in a category and the odds of drawing it will increase.  :twocents:





DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed here are not those of HW Management, Admins, Mods or Myself... But they are the opinions of Elvis who has revealed them to me through the medium of my pet hamster, Lee Harvey Oswald...


MB

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Offline M_ray

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2017, 04:23:01 PM »
Easy solution.

Just let the tags be filled. If you draw multiple Elk tags, you get to fill multiple elk tags.

Sounds great but the reality is that most will not even hunt for a cow given a bull permit in their pocket. I shot a cow last year in the muzzy season and passed several legal 3 point or better bucks in Wa and ate the tag because I didn't need the meat. I can see people doing the same once one of the tags are filled  :dunno:  Who needs or has the space for two elk? I know some will be the exception to the rule but many hunters will not take two elk even given the chance.
DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed here are not those of HW Management, Admins, Mods or Myself... But they are the opinions of Elvis who has revealed them to me through the medium of my pet hamster, Lee Harvey Oswald...


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Offline baker5150

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2017, 04:39:15 PM »
Easy solution.

Just let the tags be filled. If you draw multiple Elk tags, you get to fill multiple elk tags.

Sounds great but the reality is that most will not even hunt for a cow given a bull permit in their pocket. I shot a cow last year in the muzzy season and passed several legal 3 point or better bucks in Wa and ate the tag because I didn't need the meat. I can see people doing the same once one of the tags are filled  :dunno:  Who needs or has the space for two elk? I know some will be the exception to the rule but many hunters will not take two elk even given the chance.


I know a lot of people who could use that meat.  Friends, Family, Hunting buddies with bad luck, etc. 

Lets say you draw a quality and a bull tag, you wouldn't fill both tags if you could?
You have a modern cow and a modern quality tag, 2 separate seasons, I'd love to be in the woods hunting elk that long, who wouldn't?
Or a bull and a cow tag, you see a cow and fill that tag, now your set for meat and can still hunt for that bull of a lifetime knowing your set up if it doesn't happen. You can be picky with no worries about an empty freezer.

I'm just saying make it an option to fill both, right now your just screwed out of a tag
If it's our choice, and you don't need the meat, than don't fill the tag.  At least the choice was yours, not the DFW's.

Offline Bob33

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2017, 04:46:19 PM »
I think someone with two permits should be able to fill both.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline sumpnz

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2017, 05:00:22 PM »
Either let the hunter fill both, or run the draw such that if you draw quality you can't also draw bull/buck or antlerless.

Or do what M_ray suggested and make people pick only one category per species.  Those that want the trophy bull tags won't be in the way of guys like me that would rather get a cow than a rutted out bull anyway since the cows taste better and antlers are a minimal motivator.

I don't care all that much what gets done, but something to improve the draw odds would be nice.

Offline Bob33

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2017, 05:03:41 PM »
Limiting category choices reduces revenues unless the application fee is raised.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline johnnyaustin44

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2017, 05:15:26 PM »
The last three guys I know who have drawn bull tags also drew cow tags the same year. Seems too common.

Offline RadSav

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Re: Multiple tags Drawn
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2017, 05:40:38 PM »
Easy solution.

Just let the tags be filled. If you draw multiple Elk tags, you get to fill multiple elk tags.

Sounds great but the reality is that most will not even hunt for a cow given a bull permit in their pocket. I shot a cow last year in the muzzy season and passed several legal 3 point or better bucks in Wa and ate the tag because I didn't need the meat. I can see people doing the same once one of the tags are filled  :dunno:  Who needs or has the space for two elk? I know some will be the exception to the rule but many hunters will not take two elk even given the chance.

The one time I did draw a cow tag I shot a bull opening day of Early Archery.  That filled our elk freezer so the wife did not use her tag during early.  Found someone to take the year prior elk meat day before late season ended so we took a few hours on the last day and filled the wife's with a cow.  Using my cow points to shoot a bull doesn't bother me much.
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