collapse
A Hunting Trip of a lifetime in the Wenaha Tucannon Wilderness! Trophy Bucks and Bulls

Author Topic: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?  (Read 1149 times)

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 5715
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
I am saying that a bullet wound from a projectile that that penetrates into the chest and passes through the heart or lungs has lost so much energy that it does not expand, may or may not be ultimately lethal to the animal. 

Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't and sometimes it is not directly the cause of ultimate death, but functions as the "root cause," or contributory causal factor of death because although the injury did not kill the animal, the trauma suffered caused enough disruption to the animal's daily routine and subsequent ability to prepare for winter is so compromised that the animal succumbs to "winter kill."

I am also saying that such a wound, caused by a bullet that does not expand, unless it breaks a major skeletal structure is not something that can reliably be expected to result in an animal that is brought to bag. 

This attached photograph is taken from Elk of North America Ecology and Management 1982 and it clearly shows the heart of bull elk that has a "healed up" hole through it that was the result of being shot by a 30 caliber bullet that did not expand.  This elk was subsequently taken by another hunter who found an unexpanded 30 caliber bullet in the animal's chest and was curious enough to do a thorough autopsy.   

This and other cases have been discussed at great length in studies done of wounding dynamics of small arms projectiles wherein hundreds and hundreds of goats, burros and other animals were experimented on.  I cannot recall the name of the report that came out of that study, but it puts the lie to a lot of what people believe about wounding from small arms fire. 

Offline BULLBLASTER

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 5758
  • Volleyfire brigade
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2017, 09:51:50 AM »
And there it is.... the thread started with the sole intent to be a jack... oh and btw nice jab with your picture title.

Isn't it against the forum rules to start another thread to discuss exactly what got the other one locked?

Go back to your varmint shooting bench and leave us alone!

Offline Jonathan_S

  • Site Ad Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 7064
  • Location: Medical Lake
  • Volleyfire Brigade
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2017, 09:56:28 AM »
You've killed a lot of elk have you Hasty?
“Kindly do not attempt to cloud the issue with too many facts.”

Offline Skillet

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 3509
  • Location: Sitka / Everett
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 09:56:44 AM »
This looks pretty lethal to me.  :dunno:

Ah, just funnin ya Hasty.  Only trolling I get to do for a few months  :chuckle:
KABOOM Count - 1

"The ocean is calling, and I must go."

Offline h20hunter

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 15285
  • Location: Lake Stevens
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2017, 09:58:09 AM »
This looks pretty lethal to me.  :dunno:


 :chuckle:

Now thats funny.
Yes, my FJ is pink, I'm all about Team Jacob, beer is not for the horses nor is whiskey for the men, they are both for me.

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 5715
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2017, 09:58:32 AM »
This looks pretty lethal to me.  :dunno:

It was not lethal.  It healed up and the elk recovered and showed no outward sign of prior injury when it was taken by another hunter. 

Offline BULLBLASTER

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 5758
  • Volleyfire brigade
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2017, 10:00:02 AM »
This looks pretty lethal to me.  :dunno:

It was not lethal.  It healed up and the elk recovered and showed no outward sign of prior injury when it was taken by another hunter.
Uhh he was referring to the pic he posted of a giant red heart with a pencil through it.
 

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 5715
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2017, 10:05:15 AM »
The US Military did a lot of testing of small arms wounds in the early 20th Century.  They shot a lot of goats, burros, pigs, horses etc and animals shot through the lungs w/non expanding bullet sometimes died right away, usually died later, and fairly frequently recovered.   

Offline headshot5

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2008
  • Posts: 1138
  • Location: Port Orchard, WA
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2017, 10:07:59 AM »
Good reason to make the .223 legal for big game.  Better chance for them to live on a bad shot.   :tung:

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 5715
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2017, 10:12:24 AM »
And there it is.... the thread started with the sole intent to be a jack... oh and btw nice jab with your picture title.

Isn't it against the forum rules to start another thread to discuss exactly what got the other one locked?

Go back to your varmint shooting bench and leave us alone!

Go back to my varmint shooting bench so you can:

Offline jackelope

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 34332
  • Location: Duvall, WA
  • Groups: WSB RMGA NRA RMEF BHA
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2017, 10:30:01 AM »
A hole in the heart makes it dead.
 :dunno:
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline h20hunter

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 15285
  • Location: Lake Stevens
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2017, 10:39:43 AM »
Not according to a study 1 billion years ago about a Burro named Senor Burro that was shot by small arms fire and lived to go on to a better life in makeup testing.

 ;)
Yes, my FJ is pink, I'm all about Team Jacob, beer is not for the horses nor is whiskey for the men, they are both for me.

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 5715
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 10:40:01 AM »
A hole in the heart makes it dead.
 :dunno:

The hole through the heart did not make that bull elk dead.  That elk was doing just fine when it was shot at a later date.  In the testing that the US Military did in the last century w/ball ammo a 30 caliber hole through the heart and/or lungs did not necessarily result in death either, in fact the people doing the research were surprised about the "recovery" rate.  In a wild population the rate of "total recovery" before the animal succumbed to winter kill off would probably severely limit ultimate recovery.   

Offline dontgetcrabs

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2009
  • Posts: 1707
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2017, 10:46:36 AM »
The only way to guarantee a hole through an elk's heart is lethal 100% of the time you have to use a 6.5 Grendal AR-15 at a minimum of 500 yards.  :tup:

Offline JimmyHoffa

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2010
  • Posts: 9260
  • Location: 150 Years Too Late
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2017, 10:50:15 AM »
I guess I have to go for brain stem shots then.  Or do elk survive those too?  No wonder we need howitzers these days.

Offline JDHasty

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 5715
  • Location: Tacoma
  • Groups: NRA Benefactor Member, GOA Life Member, Father of 3 NRA Life Members
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2017, 10:51:11 AM »
The only way to guarantee a hole through an elk's heart is lethal 100% of the time you have to use a 6.5 Grendal AR-15 at a minimum of 500 yards.  :tup:

You left out volley fire, it is an essential part of that equation

Offline jackelope

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 34332
  • Location: Duvall, WA
  • Groups: WSB RMGA NRA RMEF BHA
Re: Is an elk that is shot through the heart necessarily a dead elk?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2017, 11:00:22 AM »
This is locked. Locked for the same reason the other thread was locked that was discussing the same topic when it got locked.
Don't start a new one. It's locked for a reason.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

 

ElkNut Outdoor Productions

* Recent Topics

How many rounds? by kentrek
[Today at 03:33:17 AM]


Sell: Stewart recurve by Bo_nimrod
[Today at 02:49:53 AM]


Sell: 19' North river jet boat by Bo_nimrod
[Today at 02:44:56 AM]


The Ultimate Guide to Black Bear Hunting by JDHasty
[Today at 02:31:06 AM]


7" perch in Lake Stevens? by Mr.T
[Today at 01:58:37 AM]


Bear Spray vs Pistol while hunting in GRIZ country..... by Oh Mah
[Today at 01:48:37 AM]


Silverwood by pens fan
[Today at 01:40:45 AM]


American Water Spaniel♡ by pens fan
[Today at 01:36:25 AM]


Re: Word Association Game by Gobble Gobble
[Today at 12:07:54 AM]


10MM for backcountry self defense by AWS
[Yesterday at 11:31:22 PM]


What diesel pickup to get by PlateauNDN
[Yesterday at 11:27:56 PM]


Free items by cem3434
[Yesterday at 11:18:00 PM]


Later high buck hunt question by kselkhunter
[Yesterday at 11:17:45 PM]


Loincloth Hunting, Who's in ? by hollymaster
[Yesterday at 11:09:45 PM]


Price? by Magnum_Willys
[Yesterday at 11:02:16 PM]


For Sale - 2004 Silverado V8 4x4 by Ddouble
[Yesterday at 10:48:56 PM]


Cougar in East Wenatchee by PlateauNDN
[Yesterday at 10:47:42 PM]


Re: Chain Reaction Game by whackmaster
[Yesterday at 10:47:40 PM]


Critique my high hunt strategy, please :) by yakimanoob
[Yesterday at 10:46:36 PM]


cool sunset by Kit Carson
[Yesterday at 10:44:59 PM]