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Author Topic: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)  (Read 3685 times)

Offline garrett89

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2017, 06:20:28 PM »
The wolves that they introduced here are not hunger only hunters. They kill for sport on top of that. They need to sell permits to fix the problem the wildlife people started.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2017, 06:21:05 AM »
  I don't see anything in the report that says they captured and collared fawns and calves to look at predation rates on recruitment.  Seems like that would be a big piece of the picture.   :dunno:

And when they find coyotes and black bears are the big culprits when it comes to fawn/calf predation the wolf-haters will deny it.

I know, 200 wolves eat more fawns/calves than 25,000 bears and 200,000 coyotes. Makes perfect sense..to the great scientific minds on here.

I have no doubt that's exactly what they'll report. There's a vast difference between just hating wolves for hating them and realizing that a wolf plan which is 50% more aggressive than a state with twice the land mass and 1/16th of the population density (MT), is ridiculous. 15 breeding pairs in our state and the refusal of the WDFW to de-list in the NE where the feds have already done so is a clear indication of their priorities. Meanwhile, the people and other wildlife there mean nothing as long as the great wolf plan succeeds. And it is succeeding, beyond their wildest dreams. I may not have a great scientific mind but I know numbers and know we were sold a rotten bill of goods by the USFWS and the WDFW. And, that's without even discussing echinococcus granulosus. Maybe your great scientific mind can enlighten us on the benefits of bringing in that disease.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Practical Approach

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2017, 07:50:41 AM »
I guess I must be missing something.  The study is not looking at fawn and calf survival.  So no predation conclusions on the young will be made.  That will be an unknown.  Yes, I agree westside studies do show that bobcats, cougars, coyotes and bears have significant impacts on fawn recruitment, however wolves are very effective hunters and how much additive mortality will they add to potential recruitment? 

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2017, 08:13:23 AM »
How could an effective study of wolves' effect on other wildlife not include predation of infant and immature ungulates?
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2017, 08:20:48 AM »
Wolves tend to have a different hunting style than the other predators mentioned.  Occasionally yotes can run deer/elk, but usually they are just sniffing around for the bedded fawn like black bears.  Deer probably aren't used to being chased long distances on a regular basis.

Offline nwwanderer

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2017, 09:29:14 AM »
Quite a blend of financing.  What is the source of the $400,000 from 2015 budgets?  Does the NSF money have performance requirements?  It seems unlikely this is even close to enough money for the plan as outlined.

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2017, 09:36:54 AM »
I may not have a great scientific mind but I know numbers and know we were sold a rotten bill of goods by the USFWS and the WDFW. And, that's without even discussing echinococcus granulosus. Maybe your great scientific mind can enlighten us on the benefits of bringing in that disease.

Bringing in what? We've always had tapeworms here. They are spread by canines such as dogs and coyotes. That argument is such a red herring.
A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears. ~ Michel de Montaigne

Offline Practical Approach

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2017, 10:09:07 AM »
How could an effective study of wolves' effect on other wildlife not include predation of infant and immature ungulates?

Word on the street is that it was too expensive to try to catch and collar the young ones.  But your right it won't be very effective if it is indeed true. 

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2017, 10:20:53 AM »
How could an effective study of wolves' effect on other wildlife not include predation of infant and immature ungulates?

That's a pretty tough piece of information to capture.  Collaring infants is never going to work, they are collaring subadults if they are big enough to hold the collar.  Vaginal implants could potentially work, but getting eyes on a WT deer with fawn in this area is damn near impossible. 

I get what you're saying, but it's very hard to do in big country.  Collared elk can be surveyed for calf survival during the winter.


Offline Practical Approach

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2017, 10:57:41 AM »
How could an effective study of wolves' effect on other wildlife not include predation of infant and immature ungulates?

That's a pretty tough piece of information to capture.  Collaring infants is never going to work, they are collaring subadults if they are big enough to hold the collar.  Vaginal implants could potentially work, but getting eyes on a WT deer with fawn in this area is damn near impossible. 

I get what you're saying, but it's very hard to do in big country.  Collared elk can be surveyed for calf survival during the winter.
I agree it is more difficult and costly, but I think it is important.  You can collar infants using collars for infants that expand as they grow.  You could use vaginal implants on all of the mature females you caught, but you would have to spend additional money to go back in in a timely manner and find the fawns and calves to get the collar on them before they are too big to get away.  If you can get to them fairly soon after the implant is expelled the fawn/calf will not be far from the implant or the collared mother. 
I am not discounting the added layer of difficulty and expense, but on a project of this magnitude and the questions you are trying to answer, it seems pretty important. 

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2017, 11:01:50 AM »
They can't find volunteer groups to help out?  Every few years it seems like a few groups on the westside have big groups to go do fawn counts in June.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2017, 11:10:49 AM »
Wolves tend to have a different hunting style than the other predators mentioned.  Occasionally yotes can run deer/elk, but usually they are just sniffing around for the bedded fawn like black bears.  Deer probably aren't used to being chased long distances on a regular basis.

In a lot of areas a person can run down a deer this time of year, wouldn't take much for a wolf.  They're on super low reserves right now and gas out quickly.

Offline garrett89

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2017, 11:12:20 AM »
I think they need to produce 50 wolf tags per year for a drawing. $25 for a chance to get drawn. It will manage out because there's 19 packs that have breeding pairs. 4-6 pups per pack will be born per season = 76-114 average or more per year.

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2017, 11:18:56 AM »
This is just another joke study with $$$$ in the pockets of WDF&Wolves etc..


Study after study has already been done in other states where wolves were dump, and the outcome has always been the same, it's wolves stupid!

My guess is WDFW have already predetermined what the study will say and I would imagine it will favor either more habitat is needed or poor habitat.

Remember when WDFW claimed they would have enough bps to delist in 6 years? And yet we know that wolf populations double in size each year.




Offline Practical Approach

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2017, 11:23:11 AM »
http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2015-16/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1676-S.pdf

If this is the link to the bill for the study, then I am not sure why WDFW is so heavily involved?  Does anyone know if this is the legislation linked to the predator prey study? 

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2017, 11:24:34 AM »
How could an effective study of wolves' effect on other wildlife not include predation of infant and immature ungulates?

That's a pretty tough piece of information to capture.  Collaring infants is never going to work, they are collaring subadults if they are big enough to hold the collar.  Vaginal implants could potentially work, but getting eyes on a WT deer with fawn in this area is damn near impossible. 

I get what you're saying, but it's very hard to do in big country.  Collared elk can be surveyed for calf survival during the winter.

I'd be fine with checking the wolves' stomach contents.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline garrett89

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2017, 11:26:11 AM »
This is just another joke study with $$$$ in the pockets of WDF&Wolves etc..


Study after study has already been done in other states where wolves were dump, and the outcome has always been the same, it's wolves stupid!

My guess is WDFW have already predetermined what the study will say and I would imagine it will favor either more habitat is needed or poor habitat.

Remember when WDFW claimed they would have enough bps to delist in 6 years? And yet we know that wolf populations double in size each year.

Probably got paid off by a bunch of hippies to start the project in the first place.

Offline idaho guy

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2017, 02:20:38 PM »
What a waste of damn money, look at wyomings moose population, looks at idaho for god's sake.  Can't they pull some valuable info from the states that have already suffered from the wolf populations, how tough and expensive would that be????



 :yeah:I would say the "study" has already been done in wy,mt,and Id. Total waste of money 

Offline DOUBLELUNG

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2017, 02:27:16 PM »
Looks like 1.9 million dollars is what they have to spend. I wonder, is it really worth it? Wouldn't it be better to spend that money on wildlife habitat restoration?
$150k of WDFW funds to leverage $1.85M is a pretty efficient use.  That $1.85M isn't available for other purposes.
As long as we have the habitat, we can argue forever about who gets to kill what and when.  No habitat = no game.

Offline Special T

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2017, 02:29:33 PM »
Except that they use 400k worth of Pitman Robert's funds that could go to improving something we can hunt
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Offline garrett89

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2017, 03:27:45 PM »
Except that they use 400k worth of Pitman Robert's funds that could go to improving something we can hunt
Like in the study of hoof rot would be nice to find out what's exactly causing it.

Offline Special T

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2017, 03:59:36 PM »
Tup
The Truth is like Poetry, and most people hate Poetry

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2017, 06:51:44 PM »
This is just another joke study with $$$$ in the pockets of WDF&Wolves etc..


Study after study has already been done in other states where wolves were dump, and the outcome has always been the same, it's wolves stupid!

My guess is WDFW have already predetermined what the study will say and I would imagine it will favor either more habitat is needed or poor habitat.

Remember when WDFW claimed they would have enough bps to delist in 6 years? And yet we know that wolf populations double in size each year.




I don't remember them saying anything about meeting requirements in six years.  Do you have a link to that somewhere?

Which studies showed wolves were the culprit?  I know the Bitterroot showed otherwise, and the one currently underway in the CDAs is looking like lions are going to come out looking like the bad guys

Offline idaho guy

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2017, 10:46:28 AM »
This is just another joke study with $$$$ in the pockets of WDF&Wolves etc..


Study after study has already been done in other states where wolves were dump, and the outcome has always been the same, it's wolves stupid!

My guess is WDFW have already predetermined what the study will say and I would imagine it will favor either more habitat is needed or poor habitat.

Remember when WDFW claimed they would have enough bps to delist in 6 years? And yet we know that wolf populations double in size each year.




I don't remember them saying anything about meeting requirements in six years.  Do you have a link to that somewhere?

Which studies showed wolves were the culprit?  I know the Bitterroot showed otherwise, and the one currently underway in the CDAs is looking like lions are going to come out looking like the bad guys



I have heard that they are suggesting that something like 70% of elk kills are due to lions not wolves in the panhandle. I don't know if this is the result of the study you are referencing but local idfg personnel have been saying this. I hound hunt quite a bit and I have a very hard time believing that since about 90% of the lion kills I have ever found have been deer? I have also found a lot more wolf kills on elk than lions. It seems like we have a lot less lions in the panhandle now then we did in the 90s and that was the "good old days" for elk numbers in the panhandle. I never noticed a significant decline in elk numbers hunting in the panhandle till the wolves showed up in large numbers. WAcoyotehunter I know from other posts you hunt lions in the cda's and that you are a biologist. I respect your opinion and I just have a real hard time believing lions are the bad guy here. I am not a biologist and probably just a redneck but we had tons of elk and seemingly more lions before the wolves. After wolves less elk AND less lions. This is all based on what I see when out in the woods or hunting and maybe I am wrong. Might be specific to the areas I hunt? I would like to see numbers on actual lions before wolves and now and then compare that to elk numbers. I also have noticed a big rebound in Elk in the area I regularly cat hunt and a huge decline in the number of wolf tracks. Educate me because it seems like a bunch of BS.     

Offline flatbkman

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Re: Wolves' Effect On Other Wildlife (Study)
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2017, 11:28:14 AM »
Looks to me like this is just another way to justify spending more money and hiring more office staff, in other words job justification. Do people here really think that their studies will come up with a different conclusion that the studies other states are coming up with?

 

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