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Poll

Should all OTC tags be eliminated and draw only hunting be the way forward?

NO - keep the general season open
262 (69.1%)
YES - make all hunting special draw only like Utah
117 (30.9%)

Total Members Voted: 379

Author Topic: Should ALL general season Elk hunts be canceled in favor of permit only hunting?  (Read 14239 times)

Offline KFhunter

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There are monster bulls in Washington and I personally have known guys who pull elk every year. Making it permit only won't put a monster behind every tree or even in every drainage. The system right now let's me hunt elk every year and I like that. Success rates are low sure but if you put in the time and effort and get out of your truck and out of eyesight of a road you can get into elk.

I see this more as a blame the natives and the state for my not getting an elk issue. We have permit only areas and we have general season areas, as I can see the system is OK. I am no biologist however.

I always hear the same thing.   I know guys who do it every year, get out of the truck, don't blame the natives because you cannot hunt like the guy I know, It's about the hunt not the kill.......

Sorry jpmiller.  If I want to go camping I'll go camping.

I disagree that an unsuccessful hunting trip is merely camping. That sounds more like the mentality of a high fence hunt. I hunt in the area that receives a lot of bashing on this site due to low elk numbers and High hunter numbers, this General rifle elk season I saw only elk and no Hunters.

I think you missed my point, no one including me expects everyone to be successful year after year.  My point is if you go to the hunt already defeated then aren't you just camping?   I buy a tag and I would hope that my odds were better than 12 in 100.  According to the harvest reports 11 or 12 people out of 100 are going to be successful. 

That sucks.  Even worse is what the stats don't show; it's the same small group of hunters tend to be successful year after year; while the majority continue to be unsuccessful. 


« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 04:33:10 PM by KFhunter »
"It doesn't seem to me that anyone commenting here is familiar enough with the facts surrounding this case to be forming ANY opinion on what the outcome should be"  ~ JDhasty

Offline RB

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Does Oregon still use a draw only for Elk?
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Bob Beam

Offline trophyhunt

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Does Oregon still use a draw only for Elk?
on the east side.

Offline RB

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Does Oregon still use a draw only for Elk?
on the east side.


So when they switched to draw only on half the state does anybody know how it affected hunter numbers? Hunting pressure on the west side? And how long the draw odds are?
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Bob Beam

Offline Bob33

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Does Oregon still use a draw only for Elk?
on the east side.


So when they switched to draw only on half the state does anybody know how it affected hunter numbers? Hunting pressure on the west side? And how long the draw odds are?
The east side has serious points creep.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline RB

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Does Oregon still use a draw only for Elk?
on the east side.


So when they switched to draw only on half the state does anybody know how it affected hunter numbers? Hunting pressure on the west side? And how long the draw odds are?
The east side has serious points creep.


Meaning it gets harder draw every year?
IAFF #3728

Bob Beam

Offline trophyhunt

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Does Oregon still use a draw only for Elk?
on the east side.


So when they switched to draw only on half the state does anybody know how it affected hunter numbers? Hunting pressure on the west side? And how long the draw odds are?
The east side has serious points creep.


Meaning it gets harder draw every year?
yes.

Offline Browndawg

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Oregon still has OTC on the east side for Archery. Not all units but some. I've never seen so many rigs during an archery season as I've seen over there. But it's a big unit. You get out, and don't see anyone. Only elk everywhere. It's a spike only unit OTC during modern, unless you draw any bull. Just like eastern WA.

Problem is, most of us on this forum hunt the cascades or SW WA. We've all noticed the lack of elk, or limping elk  in the past 9 years. I'd like to see it go to spike only OTC, and draw for any bull. I'll bet $250 towards the turkey foundation we get better genetics in the cascade herd! Most of the bulls taken in our camp are weird looking raghorns.

Offline kentrek

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There are monster bulls in Washington and I personally have known guys who pull elk every year. Making it permit only won't put a monster behind every tree or even in every drainage. The system right now let's me hunt elk every year and I like that. Success rates are low sure but if you put in the time and effort and get out of your truck and out of eyesight of a road you can get into elk.

I see this more as a blame the natives and the state for my not getting an elk issue. We have permit only areas and we have general season areas, as I can see the system is OK. I am no biologist however.

I always hear the same thing.   I know guys who do it every year, get out of the truck, don't blame the natives because you cannot hunt like the guy I know, It's about the hunt not the kill.......

Sorry jpmiller.  If I want to go camping I'll go camping.

I disagree that an unsuccessful hunting trip is merely camping. That sounds more like the mentality of a high fence hunt. I hunt in the area that receives a lot of bashing on this site due to low elk numbers and High hunter numbers, this General rifle elk season I saw only elk and no Hunters.

I think you missed my point, no one including me expects everyone to be successful year after year.  My point is if you go to the hunt already defeated then aren't you just camping?   I buy a tag and I would hope that my odds were better than 12 in 100.  According to the harvest reports 11 or 12 people out of 100 are going to be successful. 

That sucks.  Even worse is what the stats don't show; it's the same small group of hunters tend to be successful year after year; while the majority continue to be unsuccessful.

Dont take offense to this but you arnt entitled to success by buying a tag, you gotta work for it.....special permits systems don't help you become a better hunter....they do the opposite

If I could I'd eliminate all special permits & spread people out with zone management like idaho

Offline Jpmiller

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There are monster bulls in Washington and I personally have known guys who pull elk every year. Making it permit only won't put a monster behind every tree or even in every drainage. The system right now let's me hunt elk every year and I like that. Success rates are low sure but if you put in the time and effort and get out of your truck and out of eyesight of a road you can get into elk.

I see this more as a blame the natives and the state for my not getting an elk issue. We have permit only areas and we have general season areas, as I can see the system is OK. I am no biologist however.

I always hear the same thing.   I know guys who do it every year, get out of the truck, don't blame the natives because you cannot hunt like the guy I know, It's about the hunt not the kill.......

Sorry jpmiller.  If I want to go camping I'll go camping.

I disagree that an unsuccessful hunting trip is merely camping. That sounds more like the mentality of a high fence hunt. I hunt in the area that receives a lot of bashing on this site due to low elk numbers and High hunter numbers, this General rifle elk season I saw only elk and no Hunters.

I think you missed my point, no one including me expects everyone to be successful year after year.  My point is if you go to the hunt already defeated then aren't you just camping?   I buy a tag and I would hope that my odds were better than 12 in 100.  According to the harvest reports 11 or 12 people out of 100 are going to be successful. 

That sucks.  Even worse is what the stats don't show; it's the same small group of hunters tend to be successful year after year; while the majority continue to be unsuccessful.

But if the same people are successful year after year doesn't that point to the hunter not the elk herd? I'm not trying to be antagonistic or derogatory so please forgive me if I come across as such. I do not consider myself a very good elk hunter, I have harvested 0 elk and taken 0 shots but I have never not been able to find elk over the course of a season. My lack of success is purely based on my own lack of skill and experiences. Things do happen and no one is successful every year but if I can find elk on a consistent basis I don't see why most people can't either.

Offline Wetwoodshunter

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I'm a fan of the general hunts. So far I have never felt like I need to put in for special draws and now I'm finally building points and playing a few states to do so to hopefully get a quality bull tag every 3-4 years. I have yet to pass on a good shot on a legal elk.

But still, even on general tags you have an opportunity to learn. I have been hunting elk for 9 years but something for me clicked and all in a sudden I got confident. That wouldn't have happened if I had not hunted unsuccessfully at first but as I learned I was breaking a lot of rules so never closing on elk. I hunted a new general tag area last year and had bulls 3 times in under 30 yards and filled my tag. Also filled it in a general tag the year before.

I would however like to see our draw like Idaho where NO points are given and everyone has fair odds.

Offline Browndawg

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I don't think of it as harvesting numbers in our party as much as the simple fact that we don't see as many elk as we did in the past. But that in itself has many contributing factors. I hunt the GP and there is so little logging going on I think the elk just don't have the food they need to support big herds anymore.

I have hunted the coast in Oregon for many years. Hunted and watched the same genetic family year after year (they live their lives in a 1 mile radius) and watched the herd sizes get diminish to a point where I couldn't even spot them anymore. What I realized is, when the trees got too tall and choked out the food below, they finally moved on. I stared at the same hillside for years thinking where are they? Well I found them hanging out near 3 year old clearcuts not too far away.

There is hardly any Antlerless hunts, so lack of elk, especially quality elk, comes down to lack of food, and bull management. Spike only for a while  :twocents:

Offline JimmyHoffa

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I have to say no.  Whether the permit is multi-season, quality, antlerless or whatever I have horrible luck and plain don't draw.  I'd never get to go again in this state if it was permit only.  Meanwhile, I'd have to read stories about punks on here that draw each year since they started hunting.

Offline hunter399

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No , cause all hunting will be permit someday,they can lower harvest number through seasons,horn limits etc.which is what they will do cause they want your tag money.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Browndawg

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I have to say no.  Whether the permit is multi-season, quality, antlerless or whatever I have horrible luck and plain don't draw.  I'd never get to go again in this state if it was permit only.  Meanwhile, I'd have to read stories about punks on here that draw each year since they started hunting.
:yeah: lol same boat different oar!

Offline KFhunter

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Dont take offense to this but you arnt entitled to success by buying a tag, you gotta work for it.....special permits systems don't help you become a better hunter....they do the opposite

If I could I'd eliminate all special permits & spread people out with zone management like idaho

No offense taken, I know you don't know me nor my hunting ability but that doesn't matter.  I'm not talking about personal experiences in Elk hunting.  I'm talking numbers;  I think 11% is far too low. 

Middle fork ID archery (unit 27)  is boasting 50% success rates,  why do we settle for so much less in WA?  That's cherry picking I know  :chuckle:  but ID is boasting far better success rates averaged in across the board.  Elk city is 40%




But if the same people are successful year after year doesn't that point to the hunter not the elk herd? I'm not trying to be antagonistic or derogatory so please forgive me if I come across as such. I do not consider myself a very good elk hunter, I have harvested 0 elk and taken 0 shots but I have never not been able to find elk over the course of a season. My lack of success is purely based on my own lack of skill and experiences. Things do happen and no one is successful every year but if I can find elk on a consistent basis I don't see why most people can't either.

The same people are successful year after year because they have access to property you and I do not have access to.  Take out all the people hunting hay fields.  If you took that out of the equation and could somehow limit the success results to people who chase elk on public lands the success ratio would be cut in half or more, probably a lot more.   In contrast ID is boasting very respectable success rates in wilderness units and other units comprised of mostly public land.  We could have something like that here too if we could get our act together.   I suspect that you're not so bad of an Elk hunter as you think you are.
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Offline JimmyHoffa

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Dont take offense to this but you arnt entitled to success by buying a tag, you gotta work for it.....special permits systems don't help you become a better hunter....they do the opposite

If I could I'd eliminate all special permits & spread people out with zone management like idaho

No offense taken, I know you don't know me nor my hunting ability but that doesn't matter.  I'm not talking about personal experiences in Elk hunting.  I'm talking numbers;  I think 11% is far too low. 

Middle fork ID archery (unit 27)  is boasting 50% success rates,  why do we settle for so much less in WA?  That's cherry picking I know  :chuckle:  but ID is boasting far better success rates averaged in across the board.  Elk city is 40%




But if the same people are successful year after year doesn't that point to the hunter not the elk herd? I'm not trying to be antagonistic or derogatory so please forgive me if I come across as such. I do not consider myself a very good elk hunter, I have harvested 0 elk and taken 0 shots but I have never not been able to find elk over the course of a season. My lack of success is purely based on my own lack of skill and experiences. Things do happen and no one is successful every year but if I can find elk on a consistent basis I don't see why most people can't either.

The same people are successful year after year because they have access to property you and I do not have access to.  Take out all the people hunting hay fields.  If you took that out of the equation and could somehow limit the success results to people who chase elk on public lands the success ratio would be cut in half or more, probably a lot more.   In contrast ID is boasting very respectable success rates in wilderness units and other units comprised of mostly public land.  We could have something like that here too if we could get our act together.   I suspect that you're not so bad of an Elk hunter as you think you are.
There are other consistent successes that aren't hay fields.  Generally locals or groups with some kind of generational knowledge or some tactic/season advantage.  Archery has the pre-rut/rut and calling that really bolsters their success.  Loggers tend to have a little edge by scouting almost everyday.  Some camps are willing to use ten guys to do a coordinated hunt on specific drainages.

Offline dscubame

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Those who apply in all the elk states and pay for ID and/or MT every year would say that would be freaking great!
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Offline kentrek

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Dont take offense to this but you arnt entitled to success by buying a tag, you gotta work for it.....special permits systems don't help you become a better hunter....they do the opposite

If I could I'd eliminate all special permits & spread people out with zone management like idaho

No offense taken, I know you don't know me nor my hunting ability but that doesn't matter.  I'm not talking about personal experiences in Elk hunting.  I'm talking numbers;  I think 11% is far too low. 

Middle fork ID archery (unit 27)  is boasting 50% success rates,  why do we settle for so much less in WA?  That's cherry picking I know  :chuckle:  but ID is boasting far better success rates averaged in across the board..

Look at some of the people hunting the middle fork....is it your average hunter ?? Generally people going into country like that arnt weekend warriors....(not that weekend warriors are sucky hunters,just an expression)....also look at the history of those areas....would some giant burns have anything to do with those success rates ?? Give it another few years and I bet those success rates go way down once the underbrush grows in

I'm not talking you specifically, I'm usually talking in general.....I'm sure your an awesome elk hunter lol

Offline KFhunter

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cut me some slack man I said I was cherry picking  :chuckle:



Quote
There are other consistent successes that aren't hay fields.  Generally locals or groups with some kind of generational knowledge or some tactic/season advantage.  Archery has the pre-rut/rut and calling that really bolsters their success.  Loggers tend to have a little edge by scouting almost everyday.  Some camps are willing to use ten guys to do a coordinated hunt on specific drainages.

yup yup yup,  doesn't leave a lot for the average Elk hunters though do it.   
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Offline JimmyHoffa

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Would WDFW speed up their draw?  Would it make them end antlerless seasons earlier so the bios could crunch all the data to get earlier draws?

Offline RB

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Quote
There are other consistent successes that aren't hay fields.  Generally locals or groups with some kind of generational knowledge or some tactic/season advantage.  Archery has the pre-rut/rut and calling that really bolsters their success.  Loggers tend to have a little edge by scouting almost everyday.  Some camps are willing to use ten guys to do a coordinated hunt on specific drainages.

yup yup yup,  doesn't leave a lot for the average Elk hunters though do it.
[/quote]

 :yeah:

That right there sums it up! Have know everyone of those described in that quote. One of my best friends is a logger and has told me stories of Deer literally running into him while running a chainsaw, and watching as a herd of Elk with at least one monster Bull walk right through the landing. Others I have talked with that have hunted the same area for 50 plus years know right where the animals go, and the archery guys that know when and how to call efficiently when the rut is on.

I believe this is where the average guy gets really discouraged seeing what appears to be all the other average guys having success but not knowing those guys have field/generational knowledge.  :twocents:
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Offline fisheral87

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While early success is great, I learned a lot just regularly being in the woods and around camp with guys who had been doing it longer and listening to stories and failures. For those guys who can afford to apply for permits there is that option. For those guys who can't or don't there is still learning to be done that will serve you well and you'll get the opportunity to enjoy the stars and the campfire after a hard day of hiking year after year.

Al
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Offline Jpmiller

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Again, not trying to be rude, but it looks like a lot of what I am reading is everyone else had an advantage over me and that's why I don't get an elk. I read about knowledge of the woods being in the favor of people who spend time out there. That's something any one of us can gain  h putting in the time. If you can't put in the time and work the playing field is tilted against you. Hunting isn't a video game, it takes time and work and if you don't put that in your results oftentimes reflect it. It's not supposed to be fair, we are chasing an animal who can hear see smell and move better than we can dream to in country they know better than us because they live there. It's hard, it's supposed to be hard.

I tell my employees at work all the time that getting a pay raise or more responsibilities won't make you a better employee. Same goes for hunters in my opinion. An elk is not deserved to you for buying a tag.

Online baldopepper

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Well, from my experience in Utah (they are pretty much permit only for both deer and elk) there is both good and bad to say for the drawing system.  Years ago our hunting trip was an annual get together of mostly family, with a large camp and hours spent around the campfire catching up on everyones lives and seeing who could tell the biggest whopper about their hunting/fishing experiences.  Everyone looked forward to it every year and planned vacation time around it well in advance.  We were fairly successful hunting but very successful in seeing family members in a relaxed kick back atmosphere.  Then the draw system started.  At first it was ok, even those members who didn't draw came out but when only one or two drew a permit our numbers started to decline, now it's basically down to just 4-5 hard core family members (mostly us older guys) and it just isn't the same experience.  I know of several other groups who have experienced the same thing.  Those who do draw seem to feel a lot of pressure to get an animal because they did draw a permit and feel it would be a waste to get one of the coveted permits and not take an animal.  It just seems like a much more hard core experience and leaves me hankering back to the "good old days".
The good part?  Hunting has improved from a straight "get your animal" perspective.  I wouldn't deny that elk hunting has improved dramatically from my younger days, can't say that for deer.  Breaking the state down into so many more small units has allowed a better system to manage the herds with permits more closely in line with what should be allowed to be harvested.  Hunters are confined to much smaller areas and because of that most go to areas they know well and you don't get so many wanderers in your area who hunted one end of the state last week and your end of the state this week.
So basically I think it kind of depends are what your wants are from a hunting experience.  If you are a gotta get my animal type and have enough money, you can go every year (always buy a CWMU permit if you don't draw) and the prospects of getting an animal are better.  If you are more of a casual hunter who goes more for the experience of getting together with a large group of friends or family it's not such a great deal.  I do know it's been harder to get younger family members interested in hunting when they don't know from year to year if they will actually get to carry a gun, and, if they do, the pressure to get an animal is more intense.  Heck,, I'll keep going down to help family members who do get a permit simply because, for me, it's just another excuse to get outdoors.  Personally, I think you'll see the permit system expand.  I do believe it actually makes for better herd management and I also believe it gives the various game agencies a better way to make more money off of fewer hunters. Just my :twocents:

 

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