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Author Topic: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017  (Read 5953 times)

Offline Clearcut

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2017, 11:28:22 AM »
There's no irony. If you live an hunt western Washington then your surrounded by timberland that has become paid access. I'll admit. I played the game for the first few years, but haven't since then. Once one company gets away with something an others see a benefit in it they'll follow the leader. So having this happen even though apparently I have no idea where his tree farm is according to you cavemen it's close enough to home for me that it will be like a ripple effect and before long be knocking on my door.. like I said. I don't disagree with 2pt minimum. I've been saying for years it's should be 2pt or better. But that's wdfw call not Hancock

Offline JeffRaines

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2017, 11:29:02 AM »
I don't hunt this area in question. I think 2pt or better is a good rule. But i don't think it's this "timber management" companies decision to make. It's what WDFW is for. Even though how well they manage anything could be in question it's what there here to do. Allowing these types of things to start could be the start of the end for hunting for 99% of people here. What if Weyco (nazi Germany) decided that they were gonna no longer honor cow permits on there tree farms and bull had to be 5pt or better and in 5 years there charging thousands of dollars for access per person. ? Should they be able to have rules on there property? Absolutely.. but not when it comes to game management.

I assume the way Hancock 'gets away with it' is they issue special permits for the elk permit guys and close the lands during the elk seasons to prevent someone who doesn't have a permit from shooting one. Its a loophole of sorts.

Offline Clearcut

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2017, 11:44:24 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but unit 654 in which where kapowsin is located. Is open for general seasons for all 3 weapons. So if them issuing elk permits to access permit holders is doing you a favor 🤔

Offline bigtex

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2017, 01:00:53 PM »
Private land owners by law are not allowed to make up there own hunting laws.  They can charge for access if they want.  They can work with the game dept to come up with special permit opportunities for themselves and others.  But they aren't supposed to make up their own laws.
Not true.

A landowner can enact their own stipulations (or regs if you want to call them that) for hunting on their lands. These stipulations can be more restricted then the state regs, but can't be looser then the state regs. What Hancock did was restrict the state regs even further.

For example, a landowner with land in an "any deer" unit can say I'll let you on my land but you can only shoot bucks with a 3pt minimum. Now if he shoots a 2pt is it poaching, no not under state laws. But he can be charged for trespass since he broke the landowner's regulations.

Offline trophyhunt

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2017, 01:01:45 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but unit 654 in which where kapowsin is located. Is open for general seasons for all 3 weapons. So if them issuing elk permits to access permit holders is doing you a favor 🤔
Hancock is in 654, that unit does have otc elk hunts.  But, Hancock closes access to their property during all elk seasons, except to those who draw the permits. Basically it's an access permit more than an elk permit.  They will prosecute to full extent of the law for trespassing if your caught in there during elk season without permission. 

Offline cavemann

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2017, 01:25:28 PM »
There's no irony. If you live an hunt western Washington then your surrounded by timberland that has become paid access. I'll admit. I played the game for the first few years, but haven't since then. Once one company gets away with something an others see a benefit in it they'll follow the leader. So having this happen even though apparently I have no idea where his tree farm is according to you cavemen it's close enough to home for me that it will be like a ripple effect and before long be knocking on my door.. like I said. I don't disagree with 2pt minimum. I've been saying for years it's should be 2pt or better. But that's wdfw call not Hancock

It's a matter of opinion..  You and dvolmer both stated you either didn't know where Hancock was or have never been there.  Simply stated, Hancock is not violating laws and has restricted elk hunts similar to the 2pt minimum for deer they are putting in place now.  They can do as they wish. 

As I stated earlier, it is not worth it anyway..  No deer, roads are crowded and it's way over priced.  I'm all for boycotting them and think western wa hunters should do the same and not buy their permit...  Send a message...  Their is a ton of free access land in the Methow, Entiat and E Wa..  Mule deer are everywhere and whitetail are on the mend around the Palouse and Ione..  Less restrictions, more deer and friendly locals who will help.

Offline krapmit

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2017, 01:30:17 PM »
how much $$ is the pass this year?

Online rasbo

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2017, 01:41:08 PM »
whew,I hunted there for years,every year we hear some folks complaining about no deer and no bears,no coyotes no cougars,roads busy,road hunters..high prices..there is a lot of deer,a lot of bears we never have to many problems,we did however get out of our trucks and hunt or use mountain bikes,we got our firewood there,we had great times there,and yes the prices rose,but so many folks ruined things for other people..don't buy into it if you don't like it....but if your close and put in some effort you will save money and get critters.I like the 2 point or better,

Offline trophyhunt

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2017, 02:06:21 PM »
how much $$ is the pass this year?
375.00

Offline biggfish

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2017, 02:46:03 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but unit 654 in which where kapowsin is located. Is open for general seasons for all 3 weapons. So if them issuing elk permits to access permit holders is doing you a favor 🤔
There is no late season elk that is all by permit after riffle season. Also no early muzzleloader deer. But there is state and federal land on the south side and Glacier Peak is open for high buck, so the unit has a lot of opportunity.

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Offline duckmen1

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2017, 02:54:28 PM »
Glacier peak is way up north. Where the high hunt takes place.  Glacier view is in the 654. There is no high buck hunt in september for glacier view/654.
Just sayin
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Offline grade-creek-rd

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2017, 03:28:33 PM »
Bigtex,

Serious question for ya (just in case others on here think I am being "funny" or sarcastic) but for trespassing you have to be on private lands without permission...and trespassing while hunting is being on private lands without permission and hunting...but if you are a pass holder, and it is open to pass holders so you have permission and it is legal to shoot a spike by state law how are you trespassing as you stated? The permit is for access and it clearly states that if you violate the rules of the pass that they can and will take your pass away, but they can't impose state laws of trespassing because you broke an "Hancock rule" as this would be the same thing if you were speeding, or riding a dirt bike or didn't sign in...your not breaking any state laws, they can't call the sheriff and have you arrested for trespassing in those instances, so how is shooting a legal spike any different? I would think they would kick you out and revoke your permit...but no court would find you guilty of trespassing when you showed up and had a permit to be allowed on the land...can you explain if I am wrong on this one.

I looked up the RCW just to make sure...and it says the person enters or remains unlawfully...if you have a pass and it's legal to shoot a spike per state law, they are there lawfully...just not in compliance with Hancock's rules but RCW's can only be applied to state statutes not private rules. Again, I equate this to having a warming fire on a ridge during a snowstorm, not against the law but against Hancock rules of no fires outside of the camping area, they can't call the sheriff and have you arrested for the fire as its not against the state law to have one, they can just kick you out and revoke your permit.

And just this past week the "Bullwinkle" case set case law on this very subject...


RCW 9A.52.080



Criminal trespass in the second degree.


(1) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the second degree if he or she knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises of another under circumstances not constituting criminal trespass in the first degree.

(2) Criminal trespass in the second degree is a misdemeanor.

thanks in advance,

Grade
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 04:04:18 PM by grade-creek-rd »
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Offline Clearcut

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2017, 04:09:14 PM »
I guess I should have been more specific.. I was referring to OTC for elk. An it being a open GMU for elk season for muzzle, rifle and archery. Obviously 3pt restrictions but still.. them only allowing 8 elk hunters in a area where it's suppose to be a open GMU for elk.

Offline bigtex

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2017, 04:11:40 PM »
Bigtex,

Serious question for ya (just in case others on here think I am being "funny" or sarcastic) but for trespassing you have to be on private lands without permission...and trespassing while hunting is being on private lands without permission and hunting...but if you are a pass holder, and it is open to pass holders so you have permission and it is legal to shoot a spike by state law how are you trespassing as you stated?
It's case law that's been applied under the criminal trespass statute. You are correct that there is not a codified statute in the WA trespass law that says you can't violate a landowner's rule. The courts have set a precedent that when someone/a company allows you onto their lands you do so at the will of the landowner and have to follow their stipulations. Once you break that stipulation you are trespassing.

Offline olyguy79

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2017, 04:12:37 PM »
Bigtex,

Serious question for ya (just in case others on here think I am being "funny" or sarcastic) but for trespassing you have to be on private lands without permission...and trespassing while hunting is being on private lands without permission and hunting...but if you are a pass holder, and it is open to pass holders so you have permission and it is legal to shoot a spike by state law how are you trespassing as you stated?
It's case law that's been applied under the criminal trespass statute. You are correct that there is not a codified statute in the WA trespass law that says you can't violate a landowner's rule. The courts have set a precedent that when someone/a company allows you onto their lands you do so at the will of the landowner and have to follow their stipulations. Once you break that stipulation you are trespassing.
:yeah:


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Offline trophyhunt

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2017, 04:28:35 PM »
Bigtex,

Serious question for ya (just in case others on here think I am being "funny" or sarcastic) but for trespassing you have to be on private lands without permission...and trespassing while hunting is being on private lands without permission and hunting...but if you are a pass holder, and it is open to pass holders so you have permission and it is legal to shoot a spike by state law how are you trespassing as you stated?
It's case law that's been applied under the criminal trespass statute. You are correct that there is not a codified statute in the WA trespass law that says you can't violate a landowner's rule. The courts have set a precedent that when someone/a company allows you onto their lands you do so at the will of the landowner and have to follow their stipulations. Once you break that stipulation you are trespassing.
:yeah:


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So, you can be charged with tresspass if you don't follow their own rules?

Offline JBar

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2017, 04:53:04 PM »
Quote from: JBar on December 16, 2016, 01:50:02 PM
Again that would need to be approved and added by the WDFW. As a matter of fact even if they say it's a 2 point minimum on bucks they couldn't stop a person from shooting a spike as long as the GMU is a any buck unit. Yes they could kick you out, void your permit and not allow you to purchase another but you have broken no law by shooting a spike as long as the GMU allows it. If you add a cow permit for modern it's unit wide so anyone could put in and receive that permit even if they don't have a Hancock access permit. Would love to see the elk thinned out a bit and more opportunity given but it will be limited on how they can do it.
:yeah:

A lot of the suggestions here are really things out of Hancock's control and are more in WDFW's management. Hancock can say 2pt minimum for deer but if you shoot a spike you wouldn't really be "poaching" in the legal view of things since technically the unit is open for spikes.

Bigtex- The above quote in bold was from you referring to my post above that about Hancock on another thread. I'm not going to shoot a spike and risk my permit but just need some clarification. Its not poaching but is trespassing?
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Offline bigtex

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2017, 05:03:41 PM »
Quote from: JBar on December 16, 2016, 01:50:02 PM
Again that would need to be approved and added by the WDFW. As a matter of fact even if they say it's a 2 point minimum on bucks they couldn't stop a person from shooting a spike as long as the GMU is a any buck unit. Yes they could kick you out, void your permit and not allow you to purchase another but you have broken no law by shooting a spike as long as the GMU allows it. If you add a cow permit for modern it's unit wide so anyone could put in and receive that permit even if they don't have a Hancock access permit. Would love to see the elk thinned out a bit and more opportunity given but it will be limited on how they can do it.
:yeah:

A lot of the suggestions here are really things out of Hancock's control and are more in WDFW's management. Hancock can say 2pt minimum for deer but if you shoot a spike you wouldn't really be "poaching" in the legal view of things since technically the unit is open for spikes.

Bigtex- The above quote in bold was from you referring to my post above that about Hancock on another thread. I'm not going to shoot a spike and risk my permit but just need some clarification. Its not poaching but is trespassing?
You could not be cited for a wildlife offense, because quite simply you didn't violate any state hunting regs. You simply went against the landowners stipulations/regulations for accessing their property. What is "poaching" is up to each person's view, it's not a legal term in WA, or most states.

Offline biggfish

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2017, 05:25:16 PM »
Glacier peak is way up north. Where the high hunt takes place.  Glacier view is in the 654. There is no high buck hunt in september for glacier view/654.
Just sayin
You are correct and I should've known I hunt in there but archery so it's never been an issue. That could have been a horrible mistake this year as I will be going back to gun hunting this year.

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Offline duckmen1

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2017, 11:01:30 PM »
 Mistaking land marks having other names and places in mind is easy to do. glad I could help prevent a mistake
Glacier peak is way up north. Where the high hunt takes place.  Glacier view is in the 654. There is no high buck hunt in september for glacier view/654.
Just sayin
You are correct and I should've known I hunt in there but archery so it's never been an issue. That could have been a horrible mistake this year as I will be going back to gun hunting this year.

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Offline grade-creek-rd

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2017, 09:01:53 AM »
Bitgtex...I can't see any judge allowing someone to be prosecuted when they have a pass to be on the lands and don't violate any state laws...a defense would be that Hancock's rules are arbitrary and only agreed upon for access and so therefore the only penalty for breaking such "self imposed" rules are to lose access, not be criminally charged in violation of a state law that clearly wasn't broken (in order to trespass you have to do so unlawfully...which is break a law, not just a Hancock rule). Hopefully a game agent who would be called would understand this...It's no different than if I buy a ticket to see a movie and then leave my cell phone on even though the theater has a "rule" to turn off all phones...they can't call the cops and have me arrested for trespassing for leaving my phone on inside the theater but they can kick me out and not refund my money.

Grade
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Offline fireweed

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2017, 09:45:17 AM »
Private land owners by law are not allowed to make up there own hunting laws.  They can charge for access if they want.  They can work with the game dept to come up with special permit opportunities for themselves and others.  But they aren't supposed to make up their own laws.
Not true.

A landowner can enact their own stipulations (or regs if you want to call them that) for hunting on their lands. These stipulations can be more restricted then the state regs, but can't be looser then the state regs. What Hancock did was restrict the state regs even further.

For example, a landowner with land in an "any deer" unit can say I'll let you on my land but you can only shoot bucks with a 3pt minimum. Now if he shoots a 2pt is it poaching, no not under state laws. But he can be charged for trespass since he broke the landowner's regulations.
The WDFW sent all of this power to big private landowners a few years ago when they facilitated the "hunting while trespassing" law.  Before that if you followed the WDFW rules, the landowner could only get you for trespassing.  After that law was put in, the landowner became a game farm manager--who could charge you with trespassing AND poaching if you broke their hunting rules (and not the state's hunting rules).  It opened the floodgate to landowners now doing this type of east-coast thing by creating their own game management rules on top of the states, and they now have two laws to use as a weapon.

The state legislature needs to fix this or we will have nothing but game farms masquerading as tree farms.  Breaking arbitrary corporate rules should not be the same as breaking state law.  If you follow state wildlife laws, the only punishment should be leave the area, lose your access permit privileges.

Offline fireweed

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2017, 09:57:23 AM »
Bigtex,

Serious question for ya (just in case others on here think I am being "funny" or sarcastic) but for trespassing you have to be on private lands without permission...and trespassing while hunting is being on private lands without permission and hunting...but if you are a pass holder, and it is open to pass holders so you have permission and it is legal to shoot a spike by state law how are you trespassing as you stated?
It's case law that's been applied under the criminal trespass statute. You are correct that there is not a codified statute in the WA trespass law that says you can't violate a landowner's rule. The courts have set a precedent that when someone/a company allows you onto their lands you do so at the will of the landowner and have to follow their stipulations. Once you break that stipulation you are trespassing.
Which is a way the law can be read--but some county sheriffs are taking the view that they DO NOT enforce corporate policy.  The Cowlitz County sheriff has, as you know, made this stand.  They will contact someone that is asked to leave, and cite that person if they refuse to leave, but will not enforce corporate policy  nor check permits.

Offline dvolmer

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2017, 01:43:12 PM »
Say what you want, but there isn't a jury in this state that will come close to convicting you of anything if you have paid a price for admission or have a note saying you can hunt and you follow WDFW limits and size restrictions in the pamphlet during the season for the species in question.  I'm not implying that I agree to any of this.  I'm simply saying the way it is.  I do STRONGLY feel that the animals belong to the people (public) not the individual land owner.  I do feel STRONGLY that the individual land owner has the right to grant access, charge for access, or keep people off of his land to his liking.  High fence farms that own the land and the animals can do what ever they want.  If the private land owner wants to add his own set of restrictions he can but they aren't enforceable until after the deed is done and all he can do is to make sure that the person in question is not given a pass or permission in the future. That is about all he can do.  Say what you want but no Jury in this state will say otherwise.
Zonk Volmer

Offline chester

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Re: Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2017, 02:00:36 PM »
The flaw in your logic is you sign a contract when you buy your permit agreeing to ABIDE BY THEIR RULES.
Dilligaf

 

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