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Author Topic: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.  (Read 2132 times)

Offline chester

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Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« on: March 27, 2017, 01:04:20 PM »
3pt min state wide general season.
Any elk special permit tags for people who are dead set on hunting spikes .
End multi season tags.
Get rid of categories, combine points into a elk draw. All elk points zero whether you draw a cow tag or rut rifle tag.
Limit it too 2 choices and only in your unit.
Still select your weapon.

Borrowing from Idaho split state into regions by herd. You must declare region and only apply for permits in that region

Example split western Washington into 5 regions.
St Helen's
Twin harbors
Puget sound
Olympic peninsula
Nooksack

.........twin harbors would be south of hwy 8 and west of I-5
Olympic peninsula would be everything north of hwy 8.

Eastern WA -
Yakima
Clockum
Blues
North east
Mt Adams

Run general seasons statewide same time.
For example-
Rifle first Saturday in November for 10 days all regions
Muzzy first Saturday in October for 9 days all regions
Archery Saturday following Labor Day for 15 days all regions

This just seems to make more sense in my head to simplify things and spread people out by locking them into an area but more room then just one gmu.



« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 01:17:35 PM by chester »
Dilligaf

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2017, 01:09:08 PM »
Any change has to equal more $ for wdfw by definition.   Reducing draw categories probably doesn't do that ?

Offline HUNTINCOUPLE

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2017, 01:12:38 PM »
To simple. Need to generate more money for the general fund to pay for homeless folks in Seattle.
Gotta  love Idaho!!!!!!!! :IBCOOL:
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Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2017, 01:16:02 PM »
Any change has to equal more $ for wdfw by definition.   Reducing draw categories probably doesn't do that ?
What if we made apps $25  instead of $7
Dilligaf

Offline Buzz2401

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2017, 01:28:41 PM »
I personally like the system we have.  There are way more bigger bulls now then there used to be.  Would I like to see less pressure, of course, but that's not going to happen with out going to a 100% draw system.  Would I like to be able to hunt the east side more often for branched antler bulls sure but then the quality would go down and the average size of bulls would go down.  Does it suck having to hunt the unit you want to only for spikes sure.  Your suggestions are almost exactly what it used to be here and it wasn't any better then. 

Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2017, 01:36:51 PM »
I personally like the system we have.  There are way more bigger bulls now then there used to be.  Would I like to see less pressure, of course, but that's not going to happen with out going to a 100% draw system.  Would I like to be able to hunt the east side more often for branched antler bulls sure but then the quality would go down and the average size of bulls would go down.  Does it suck having to hunt the unit you want to only for spikes sure.
I guess my theory on that is if you don't kill the spikes they grow to maturity and become big bulls.  :dunno:

If it became permit only, only the rich would be able to afford it and I side with opportunity every time .
I'm 31 and since my parents didn't put me in for tags when I was a kid,  I can't expect a reasonable chance at ever drawing a blues tag in my lifetime . There are many people who never hunted until adulthood.Kids being born today will never catch the point creep in their lives. The permit system is faulty and a detriment to hunting as a whole in my eyes.
Dilligaf

Offline Buzz2401

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2017, 01:40:12 PM »
I agree but there are tons of other great tags besides the clockums and blues.  Success rate would jump for first two years then fall right back to where it is now and the overall quality would drop.  Your system is almost to the tee what we used to have before 1996 I believe was the year.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2017, 01:41:45 PM »
It's nice you put all of that thought into this, but I'd support unit-by-unit changes based on biological data only. Changing the entire state's elk program would be disastrous. No way.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Buzz2401

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2017, 01:45:35 PM »
The main thing I would like to see changed in this states hunting program is much better predator control.  But until we get the people to get rid of the law banning hounds for cougars, and until we change our current wolf management plan nothing is going to change

Offline Reidus

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2017, 01:46:00 PM »
If it was permit only, you could up the number of bull tags since you wouldn't be killing all the spikes during general season. Still kill the same number of elk, just wait until they're a little older.

I like the idea of going back to just 1 elk category.  Give me a better chance of drawing a bull tag and give the guys that just want a cow tag a better chance of drawing.

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2017, 01:46:11 PM »
Quote
I can't expect a reasonable chance at ever drawing a blues tag in my lifetime . There are many people who never hunted until adulthood.Kids being born today will never catch the point creep in their lives. The permit system is faulty and a detriment to hunting as a whole in my eyes.

Coming up with a system that allows everyone a "reasonable chance" is impossible.  If you jack up the prices, then "everyone" no longer had that chance.  I don't think a change is the answer.  If you want to kill a good bull in general season, do your work and figure out how to catch one of the big bulls within a few miles west of the PCT   :twocents:

Or just keep putting in....."so you're saying there's a chance"
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Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2017, 01:47:15 PM »
I agree but there are tons of other great tags besides the clockums and blues.  Success rate would jump for first two years then fall right back to where it is now and the overall quality would drop.  Your system is almost to the tee what we used to have before 1996 I believe was the year.

If I remember correctly antler restrictions were absent from the years prior to 1996. I think the real big difference would be the regions. If you want to put in for the blues you have to hunt the blues. Not get skunked in the drawing and then come back to the clockum.

I think it would greatly increase draw odds for those who wanted to chase trophy elk . Offer more rut hunts. And weed out people who apply in everything because they can.
I don't think overall it would hurt the mature bull elk population but maybe not see them next to the road.

I keep coming back in my mind that the success rates switching to branch antler bulls would be a bit higher or the same if you stopped shooting yearlings.
Dilligaf

Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2017, 01:53:25 PM »
Quote
I can't expect a reasonable chance at ever drawing a blues tag in my lifetime . There are many people who never hunted until adulthood.Kids being born today will never catch the point creep in their lives. The permit system is faulty and a detriment to hunting as a whole in my eyes.

Coming up with a system that allows everyone a "reasonable chance" is impossible.  If you jack up the prices, then "everyone" no longer had that chance.  I don't think a change is the answer.  If you want to kill a good bull in general season, do your work and figure out how to catch one of the big bulls within a few miles west of the PCT   :twocents:

Or just keep putting in....."so you're saying there's a chance"

Honestly it possible to give everyone a chance. Eliminate points, you eliminate the points creep.

For the record I've never hunted or applied for the east side . Been pretty content killing raghorns on the wet side .
I just see the whole east side as a carrot the state keeps suckering people into chasing. I'd like to see the resource used to help hunter recruitment and open up opportunities, instead of them using it to leverage money from dissatisfied customers.
Dilligaf

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2017, 02:02:25 PM »
There are many guys who just want one good bull in their lives.  The current model allows for that.  It also splits the state to have 2 total different management types.  You get to pick which way you prefer.....

I don't think the east side wants the elk quality to be reduced to west side numbers.  I'd leave it be.
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Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2017, 02:08:14 PM »
There are many guys who just want one good bull in their lives. 

The concern is with point creep many people with go their whole life without drawing that tag. It's on a trend to become an oil tag.

I don't think the east side wants the elk quality to be reduced to west side numbers.  I'd leave it be.

I haven't looked so this is just a guess but I'd venture that Washington has more elk west of the pct than east.
Dilligaf

Offline BULLBLASTER

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2017, 02:26:13 PM »
I actually wouldn't Ming having a couple more elk zones. Make northeast and south east and central and western. You get a tag in there and apply for permits in that zone. I think they could increase season length in northeast that way.

I'd also like to see doing away with drawing for "permits" and shift to drawing for "tags" meaning if you draw a tag that is your season. If you draw a colockum bull tag that's all you get to hunt (can't hunt general season also).

Good ideas here, not that I think WA elk hunting is really all that broken)

Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2017, 02:41:26 PM »
Well I killed my own argument,  :bash: just called Wdfw to find out which side has more elk.
Talked with a biologist who was nice enough to answer a pile of questions I had.
I was right about the population St. Helens and willapa hills alone have more elk then all of eastern Washington that's not counting rainier, Olympic peninsula, or the nooksack.

Found out true spike in the clockum is because with the spike only rules no bull elk were living to maturity with spike only.

Mature bulls shorten the rut so the cows drop calves closer together .

3pt min is out for the east side .

Still like the rest of the plan.



Dilligaf

Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2017, 02:44:01 PM »


I'd also like to see doing away with drawing for "permits" and shift to drawing for "tags" meaning if you draw a tag that is your season. If you draw a colockum bull tag that's all you get to hunt (can't hunt general season also).

Good ideas here, not that I think WA elk hunting is really all that broken)

I like this idea. So if you draw a special permit you're out of the general hunt? I could get behind that one.
Dilligaf

Offline Bob33

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2017, 02:51:41 PM »
Well I killed my own argument,  :bash: just called Wdfw to find out which side has more elk.
Talked with a biologist who was nice enough to answer a pile of questions I had.
I was right about the population St. Helens and willapa hills alone have more elk then all of eastern Washington that's not counting rainier, Olympic peninsula, or the nooksack.

Found out true spike in the clockum is because with the spike only rules no bull elk were living to maturity with spike only.

Mature bulls shorten the rut so the cows drop calves closer together .

3pt min is out for the east side .

Still like the rest of the plan.
By my math, you are correct.

https://www.hunter-ed.com/washington/studyGuide/Elk-in-Washington/20105001_700046864/


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Offline emac

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2017, 03:07:13 PM »
I would be all for regions as mentioned above. Selected your region and those are the only tags you can apply for and the only areas you can hunt for the general season.

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Offline coachcw

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2017, 04:49:31 PM »
we should go permit only so our tribal brothers will have move trophy bulls to harvest ! :chuckle:
My wife told me that I hunt way more than I did when we first got married. I said yeah I know isn't it great !

Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2017, 04:54:04 PM »
we should go permit only so our tribal brothers will have move trophy bulls to harvest ! :chuckle:
It'd be a lot funnier if so many people weren't pushing for that very thing .  :'(
Dilligaf

Offline jstone

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2017, 05:46:35 PM »
Yep, that only help some people. There are lots of issues that need to be dealt with. Permit only wont solve the problem.

Offline kentrek

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2017, 06:00:57 PM »
we should go permit only so our tribal brothers will have move trophy bulls to harvest ! :chuckle:
It'd be a lot funnier if so many people weren't pushing for that very thing .  :'(

They say let's copy Utah ! They have it figured out ! Then later that month they start a thread asking where to go hunting in Idaho...... :bash:

Offline floatinghat

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2017, 08:24:07 PM »


So you could hunt any GMU in the region? 

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2017, 08:28:20 PM »


I'd also like to see doing away with drawing for "permits" and shift to drawing for "tags" meaning if you draw a tag that is your season. If you draw a colockum bull tag that's all you get to hunt (can't hunt general season also).

Good ideas here, not that I think WA elk hunting is really all that broken)

I like this idea. So if you draw a special permit you're out of the general hunt? I could get behind that one.
yep. It would make people think about what permit they apply for. Not sure how it would work with the 638 permit category's we currently have tho.  :tung:

Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2017, 08:44:59 PM »


So you could hunt any GMU in the region?

yes all units in that region.
Dilligaf

Offline lhrbull

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2017, 08:52:01 PM »
permit only for any bull elk in your region of choice weapon of your choice

Offline Curly

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2017, 08:53:11 PM »
I seem to remember a time when you had to pick between western wa, se wa, or north central. Seems like it lasted a year or two that way. Maybe the 80's....?
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Offline chester

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2017, 08:55:15 PM »
permit only for any bull elk in your region of choice weapon of your choice
Why do you think permit only would be beneficial to hunting in Washington as a whole?
Dilligaf

Offline High Climber

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2017, 09:27:56 PM »
I don't see WA as having an issue with point creep... There is no units that took say 10 points last year that will take more than 10 this year.  Everyone has a chance, albeit slim, to draw any tag in the state. Guys every year are drawing quality tags with minimal points.  The only change I wouldn't mind seeing is a percentage of the special permits going to the highest point holder 25% maybe, But then we would have point creep :chuckle: I also like Idahos system much better, but WA is too invested in the point system to look back now IMO

Offline rsarkks

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2017, 10:22:47 AM »
Per discussion with biologists and others familiar with the history of lk in the Blues, the spike only restriction is the reason we are now seeing 400" bulls running around those steep canyons. Back in the 90's (before my hunting days so I am going off word only) it was uncommon to find much more than 5 and small 6 points bulls in the area.

At one point the WDFW attempted a spike only restriction around Mt St Helens (90's timeframe) which lasted only one year. Here is a note from the 2001 Mt St Helens Elk Heard Plan:

"In an effort to meet WDFW bull elk survivorship objectives, several any-bull units
(GMUs 505, 516, 520, 550, and 560) were managed under a spike-only, branched
bull by permit harvesting strategy beginning in 1997. The 3-point GMUs (558 and
572) remained 3-pt minimum. Also in 1997, the general firearm season was
shortened from 12 to 9 days. The move to spike-only and the reduction in season
length were designed to determine if bull escapement could be increased. Public
sentiment resulted in the abolishment of spike-only regulations after 1 year. The
spike-only units were changed to 3-pt minimum units thereafter. "

Offline riflehunter

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2017, 08:13:08 AM »
That idea doesn't make sense the bigger bulls are the breeders so want to keep them around. I don't see a huge problem with point system its all luck whether you have put in your whole life or not. I know people that have drawn quality or any bull tags with 4 to 5 points. it can happen just be patient its a better way to get your dream bull but if its a 3pt or better system first few years there will be big ones shot but after that nothing worth noting and herd sizes will go down

Offline Roperfive88

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2017, 12:03:43 PM »
I personally like the system we have.  There are way more bigger bulls now then there used to be.  Would I like to see less pressure, of course, but that's not going to happen with out going to a 100% draw system.  Would I like to be able to hunt the east side more often for branched antler bulls sure but then the quality would go down and the average size of bulls would go down.  Does it suck having to hunt the unit you want to only for spikes sure.
I guess my theory on that is if you don't kill the spikes they grow to maturity and become big bulls.  :dunno:

If it became permit only, only the rich would be able to afford it and I side with opportunity every time .
I'm 31 and since my parents didn't put me in for tags when I was a kid,  I can't expect a reasonable chance at ever drawing a blues tag in my lifetime . There are many people who never hunted until adulthood.Kids being born today will never catch the point creep in their lives. The permit system is faulty and a detriment to hunting as a whole in my eyes.
not enough elk for all the hunters if it wasn't permit for brach bulls the elk herd wouldn't hold up. It's a lottery to have a chance to get a big bull. The herds in the blues can't handle a free for all on branch bulls. Where I elk hunt my camp killed one bull before spike only. We have taken 12 spikes since spike only and we see tons of branch bulls. Elk aren't in the number to be hunted like deer.

Offline Odell

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2017, 04:32:07 AM »
The main thing I would like to see changed in this states hunting program is much better predator control.  But until we get the people to get rid of the law banning hounds for cougars, and until we change our current wolf management plan nothing is going to change

Between predators, poachers and tribal take there isn't much that can be done to improve elk hunting in a state this size.
what in the wild wild world of sports???

Offline cryder

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2017, 06:26:32 AM »
I think you were all born to be master hunters , so get up 430am head out to the local dive diner pull up a chair and start shareing all that stored up logic that makes so much sense , forget all these brilliant ideas and put more focus on what realy matters , the states profit margin and the preservation of there resources, its never about our benifit so oder a omlette and shut off. !!!  But great try !! But anyways now that im here i geuss pancakes are sounding a little better , i had the omlette yesterday .
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 06:34:11 AM by cryder »
loction location location ! perzackly !

Offline Jpmiller

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2017, 08:30:49 AM »
Is the issue being fixed the spike only restriction for the Eastside or something else?

Offline Rainier10

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2017, 09:32:50 AM »
I just was thinking of this yesterday on my drive back from my cabin in the Colockum.

For the past two years they have decided that the herd is over capacity and have given out a ton of cow tags.

Why didn't they try to work out a deal with the tribes to stop bull harvest in the winter?  If they asked the tribes to change their harvest from bulls to cows only in the winter months they would accomplish two things.  They would lower the number of cows and increase the number of bulls.

I believe the theory behind the bull only harvest in the winter is to not take out the baby factory.

This would of course reduce the number of cow tags but should increase the bull to cow ratio and promote better herd health.  It might also mean more bull tags in the future or at least get rid of the "true spike" thing and make it "spike only".

Seems like it would at least be worth having a conversation about.
Pain is temporary, achieving the goal is worth it.

I didn't say it would be easy, I said it would be worth it.

Every father should remember that one day his children will follow his example instead of his advice.


The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of HuntWa or the site owner.

 

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