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Author Topic: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.  (Read 8828 times)

Offline Roperfive88

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2017, 07:40:45 AM »
I believe one thing would help if they took for example a unit that has 15tags out of those 15tags give 10 to the applicant that has 15 or more points and the rest to the applicants that have less then 15. And once u draw one of those tags u have to wait like 2-5yrs before u can apply for said hunt again. U can still collect points, just can't apply for that unit until you've waited. There are a lot of applicants that draw those tags with 2-8 pts, and a guy like myself that has 20 can't seem to draw. Other states have a preference point system where u draw after you have a certain amount of points.  I realize it's a random draw, but this carrot the WDFW is holding out for the points isn't working. Just my opinion.


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They do that the new hunters will never make it to the top til they are too old to hunt. For example a unit I put in for has 14 tags and 1400 apply assuming no one leaves the pool unless they draw or joins after putting in for something else thats 100 years for a new hunter to draw. Lets say with people leaving the pool it takes 50 years to draw for a new hunter and they start applying at 8 they wont draw til 58 and 70 if you start at 20. People need to quit thinking about themselves and relize the math is what it is multipliers and preferences just make it harder for the mass and easier for the few. What happens when there are over 1000 peole with 15 points move it to 25 for those who still cant draw. If you multiply on one side of the equation (hunters) and don't on the other side (the elk) things are not going to be even. I have 15 pts and if the highest points got tags it would still take over 10 years to draw.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 08:18:30 AM by Roperfive88 »

Offline King Krok

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2017, 04:00:30 PM »
I believe one thing would help if they took for example a unit that has 15tags out of those 15tags give 10 to the applicant that has 15 or more points and the rest to the applicants that have less then 15. And once u draw one of those tags u have to wait like 2-5yrs before u can apply for said hunt again. U can still collect points, just can't apply for that unit until you've waited. There are a lot of applicants that draw those tags with 2-8 pts, and a guy like myself that has 20 can't seem to draw. Other states have a preference point system where u draw after you have a certain amount of points.  I realize it's a random draw, but this carrot the WDFW is holding out for the points isn't working. Just my opinion.


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They do that the new hunters will never make it to the top til they are too old to hunt. For example a unit I put in for has 14 tags and 1400 apply assuming no one leaves the pool unless they draw or joins after putting in for something else thats 100 years for a new hunter to draw. Lets say with people leaving the pool it takes 50 years to draw for a new hunter and they start applying at 8 they wont draw til 58 and 70 if you start at 20. People need to quit thinking about themselves and relize the math is what it is multipliers and preferences just make it harder for the mass and easier for the few. What happens when there are over 1000 peole with 15 points move it to 25 for those who still cant draw. If you multiply on one side of the equation (hunters) and don't on the other side (the elk) things are not going to be even. I have 15 pts and if the highest points got tags it would still take over 10 years to draw.
Im already there, I'm 50 now and can't draw!!! But u are right about people with so many points they aren't drawing. I was just thinking if u cleared out some of the applicants that have a *censored* ton of points? If u look at the average now, I'm over the average by quite a few. I know a few people that have said this, but I'm to the point of taking my money elsewhere now. I've been at this game in this state for 40yrs and it's gotten worse every year. Just my 2cents, so take it for what it's worth. Everyone has an opinion and they're like *censored*s. Everyone has one and generally they stink.


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Offline King Krok

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2017, 04:03:51 PM »
I don't see WA as having an issue with point creep... There is no units that took say 10 points last year that will take more than 10 this year.  Everyone has a chance, albeit slim, to draw any tag in the state. Guys every year are drawing quality tags with minimal points.  The only change I wouldn't mind seeing is a percentage of the special permits going to the highest point holder 25% maybe, But then we would have point creep :chuckle: I also like Idahos system much better, but WA is too invested in the point system to look back now IMO
I couldn't agree more with you. I kind of started the same thing. Some people are worried about the new hunters and trying to get them in, I get that. But that being said. It's like a job or career, u start at the bottom and work ur way up. U can't just start at the top?


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Offline bobcat

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2017, 05:02:44 PM »
But everybody will not draw in a liftetime. It's impossible to make the system in such a way that everyone will eventually draw. They just won't. Too many applicants and not enough tags. It's like winning the lottery. Just being a loyal player and buying your tickets every week doesn't guarantee you'll win the jackpot eventually. You most likely never will. The fact that you've been buying lottery tickets for 20 years does not give you any better odds than the guy who bought his first ticket today. And it shouldn't.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 06:46:40 PM by bobcat »

Offline blackveltbowhunter

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2017, 05:43:34 PM »
 I agree with Bobcats assesment. Personally I would give up my points if they did away with the system. And went to a true lottery like idaho. At least for deer and elk.  And I am heavily invested. The biggest problem with points IMHO is it takes the incentive out of managing game to maximize revenue. If the tags in the st helens unit were still producing whopper bulls, like the Margaret and Toutle of 15 or 20 years ago. Then we would have less pressure on other herds around the state and less competition for coveted tags. But the game department has no incentive, because instead of having to work for your money by managing units to encourage applications and dollars, they "give" you a point. A "return" for your money. So as other units collapse it will simply shift pressure from applicant pools to those areas.

Offline Rainier10

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2017, 05:45:43 PM »
But everybody will not draw in a liftetime. It's impossible to make the system in such a way that everyone will eventually draw. They just won't. Too many applicants and not enough tags. It's like with the lottery. Just being a loyal player and buying your tickets every week doesn't guarantee you'll win the jackpot eventually. You most likely never will. The fact that you've been buying lottery tickets for 20 years does not give you any better odds than the guy who bought his first ticket today. And it shouldn't.
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Offline Roperfive88

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2017, 09:06:51 PM »
But everybody will not draw in a liftetime. It's impossible to make the system in such a way that everyone will eventually draw. They just won't. Too many applicants and not enough tags. It's like with the lottery. Just being a loyal player and buying your tickets every week doesn't guarantee you'll win the jackpot eventually. You most likely never will. The fact that you've been buying lottery tickets for 20 years does not give you any better odds than the guy who bought his first ticket today. And it shouldn't.
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Offline Curly

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2017, 09:36:49 PM »
But everybody will not draw in a liftetime. It's impossible to make the system in such a way that everyone will eventually draw. They just won't. Too many applicants and not enough tags. It's like with the lottery. Just being a loyal player and buying your tickets every week doesn't guarantee you'll win the jackpot eventually. You most likely never will. The fact that you've been buying lottery tickets for 20 years does not give you any better odds than the guy who bought his first ticket today. And it shouldn't.
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Offline Stein

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2017, 10:23:50 PM »
Yep, WA has creep but it is just hidden a bit better due to the sheer number of people.

Think of it like this, if you buy 10 powerball tickets, you get a better chance (on paper) than some guy who buys one ticket. Look at the draw results and see the huge number of people with the most points that get an invitation to the loser's lounge.

Offline X-Force

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2017, 06:29:15 AM »
But everybody will not draw in a liftetime. It's impossible to make the system in such a way that everyone will eventually draw. They just won't. Too many applicants and not enough tags. It's like winning the lottery. Just being a loyal player and buying your tickets every week doesn't guarantee you'll win the jackpot eventually. You most likely never will. The fact that you've been buying lottery tickets for 20 years does not give you any better odds than the guy who bought his first ticket today. And it shouldn't.

I agree with you, my problem with the system is that it doesn't require any discretion. We have great general season hunts with deer, elk and bear so every year people have no excuse to get out in the woods. Discretion would be having to choose a permit species: elk or deer or moose or sheep or goat. Having to make that decision would allow people a greater opportunity to draw the permit that means most to them. A person could draw second or antlerless deer every year instead of waiting 4 or 6 or 8 years to draw. 1 species permitting would also allow people to have greater opportunities at drawing different species off their bucket list because there would be limited people applying for permits across the board. Points make sense but having so many species and categories doesn't for the limited amount of permits available.

WDFW wouldn't do a single species or Idaho style because the cost per permit would have to be $30-50 for per elk and deer and oil would have to be $75-120 to keep revenues constant from today.
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Offline Roperfive88

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2017, 07:24:16 AM »
Yep, WA has creep but it is just hidden a bit better due to the sheer number of people.

Think of it like this, if you buy 10 powerball tickets, you get a better chance (on paper) than some guy who buys one ticket. Look at the draw results and see the huge number of people with the most points that get an invitation to the loser's lounge.

Points creep has to do with the preference point system and the amount of points needed to guarantee you draw. For example a buddies father in law in Oregon has been one be hind that guaranteed number for ten years now. Points creep is the creep of that guaranteed number. The percentages every one talks about are such a small difference from point to point that we really are not that much advantage. when there are so many people applying for tags. Is 2% chance of drawing really that much better then 1% its still a long shot. If it was Idaho system your still looking at a 1% chase of drawing most premier permits across the board. Like bobcat said its a lottery and there are not enough elk for every one to draw in a life time.

Offline Stein

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2017, 07:40:37 AM »
Yep, WA has creep but it is just hidden a bit better due to the sheer number of people.

Think of it like this, if you buy 10 powerball tickets, you get a better chance (on paper) than some guy who buys one ticket. Look at the draw results and see the huge number of people with the most points that get an invitation to the loser's lounge.

Points creep has to do with the preference point system and the amount of points needed to guarantee you draw. For example a buddies father in law in Oregon has been one be hind that guaranteed number for ten years now. Points creep is the creep of that guaranteed number. The percentages every one talks about are such a small difference from point to point that we really are not that much advantage. when there are so many people applying for tags. Is 2% chance of drawing really that much better then 1% its still a long shot. If it was Idaho system your still looking at a 1% chase of drawing most premier permits across the board. Like bobcat said its a lottery and there are not enough elk for every one to draw in a life time.

Agreed, there are various definitions of point creep depending on the state.  In WA, you aren't guaranteed anything, so point creep is the number of points the average person had that drew the tag.  In all states, the problem is that those with the most points don't all get tags and thus they have one more point next year, and one more the year after.  Thus, those with fewer points will always have fewer points.

We should all treat it as what it is, a lottery that a few lucky people will win.  For some reason, we think that we will all get one sometime, and that just isn't the case.  Hunt the general tag and be surprised if you draw something else, but don't expect it.

Offline bobcat

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2017, 07:53:09 AM »
Thus the common question often seen on here: "how many points does it take" for such and such hunt? 

It's an impossible question to answer. But I think many people do believe that once you get to a certain number of points, you WILL draw. But that's just not the case.

I will say, as I've often said before, I think we should have waiting periods for those who do draw. Just like Idaho has. I think it's only one year. I think we should have a two year waiting period at least for the quality hunts.

Offline bighorn1

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2017, 08:21:12 AM »
Maybe if we did it like Idaho and payed a couple thousand to be in the drawing like they do for Moose the draw odds might be better. So maybe we should be satisfied with what we have and just hope we might get lucky.

Offline Jpmiller

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2017, 08:49:36 AM »
I could get behind a waiting period after a suvvesgul draw for the tags. I used to draw a cow tag almost every year for 336 when they gave out a gazillion every year so it would be a bummer to see that go (not getting a good feeling about drawing one of the 35 tags this year though) but that sounds fair to me without swinging too far the other way.

Offline ian_padron

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2017, 08:41:15 PM »
I agree but there are tons of other great tags besides the clockums and blues.  Success rate would jump for first two years then fall right back to where it is now and the overall quality would drop.  Your system is almost to the tee what we used to have before 1996 I believe was the year.

If I remember correctly antler restrictions were absent from the years prior to 1996. I think the real big difference would be the regions. If you want to put in for the blues you have to hunt the blues. Not get skunked in the drawing and then come back to the clockum.

I think it would greatly increase draw odds for those who wanted to chase trophy elk . Offer more rut hunts. And weed out people who apply in everything because they can.
I don't think overall it would hurt the mature bull elk population but maybe not see them next to the road.

I keep coming back in my mind that the success rates switching to branch antler bulls would be a bit higher or the same if you stopped shooting yearlings.

I agree with choosing a region and having to hunt it.

I also think that all wilderness areas should be their own separate "region" and open for rifle hunting. The number of outfitter drop camps should be limited to avoid the recent trend in showing up at a basin 10 miles in and seeing a tent-city full of city slickers that couldn't make their way into the backcountry without a pack train. That way, guys that are willing to put in the work and actually know where the animals are will have a better shot at drilling a bull.

No way in hell the truck and tree stand hunting twats from the Colockum, Manastash, Naneum, etc. are showing up back there haha!

Offline Antlershed

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2017, 08:59:30 PM »
Not saying this is a solution, but thought I would throw it out for discussion...

What impact would it have on draw odds if we changed the way your hunt choices worked? Everyone still gets assigned their random number, but what if they only ran thru everyone's first choices, then, in the same order, ran thru everyone's second choice, and so on... what it really comes down to, is Should person A be able to draw a hunt as his 4th choice that person B has down as a first choice? Again, I'm not even sure how I feel about the idea, but thought I'd toss it out.

Offline huntnnw

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2017, 12:06:35 AM »
Maybe if we did it like Idaho and payed a couple thousand to be in the drawing like they do for Moose the draw odds might be better. So maybe we should be satisfied with what we have and just hope we might get lucky.

ID residents do not pay thousands tho. ID system does improve odds dramatically . And how it should be in WA . You pick either bucks and bulls or 1 OIL specie to apply for and front your tag fee. Will never happen in money hungry WA

Offline eliandsky

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2017, 05:44:01 PM »
The funny thing with this thread is everyone posting is trying to figure out how to get a successful draw in some capacity when the real problem as identified by multiple posts cant be fixed  ..............(To little elk to many hunters)

At least the system gives everyone a chance.  And for those of you putting in for rifle tags that only have 1-2-3 tags dont complain mathematically its may or may not ever happen for you. 

Or go to straight lottery like ID so its fair across the board and less to complain about. 

At least the guys with 10-15-23 points do actually have a better chance. 

Offline rtspring

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2017, 05:56:50 PM »
750,000 people  hunting 45,000 elk!!!   There is no solution, play the game or hunt elsewhere
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 06:03:06 PM by rtspring »
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Offline Stein

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2017, 06:14:54 PM »
Maybe if we did it like Idaho and payed a couple thousand to be in the drawing like they do for Moose the draw odds might be better. So maybe we should be satisfied with what we have and just hope we might get lucky.

ID residents do not pay thousands tho. ID system does improve odds dramatically . And how it should be in WA . You pick either bucks and bulls or 1 OIL specie to apply for and front your tag fee. Will never happen in money hungry WA

WA uses the special permit application money to gain access to private land to increase hunting opportunity.  It doesn't come free.

Comparing WA to ID doesn't solve much, the numbers are so different that what works there wouldn't work here.

Offline rosscrazyelk

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2017, 08:27:41 PM »
Isn't that how it used to be.
I am pretty sure you had to select West side, blues, Yakima, clockum and if you didn't draw you still had to hunt that region.
?
Anyway there is to much money in it now, it would never happen. They want quantity not quality.
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2017, 08:42:16 PM »
I think these are the harsh realities!

 - WDFW is not going to take less money, it's just not going to happen, they actually want more money
 - Green groups are more and more in control of WDFW resulting in less and less predator management
 - More predators need more to eat, they are not vegans, the result is fewer elk & deer
 - No matter how much money you throw at WDFW it cannot result in more deer/elk if they are being eaten by predators
 - No matter what system you use to distribute tags, if there are less elk/deer there has to be less hunter opportunity!

Think about it!

I will concede that fewer hunters will likely mean more older bulls, but that means less opportunity for everyone each year if you cut back bull harvest!
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Offline Nice Racks

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2017, 08:52:36 PM »
Go the alphabet way.  Everyone who has their last name that starts with an A,C,E,G,I,K,M,O, Q, S,U,W,Y gets to put in for a permit hunt on even # years, and those who don't get odd years. Everyone gets to hunt the general seeasons.

Offline Roperfive88

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Re: Idea to fix WA elk hunting.
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2017, 08:56:29 AM »
Go the alphabet way.  Everyone who has their last name that starts with an A,C,E,G,I,K,M,O, Q, S,U,W,Y gets to put in for a permit hunt on even # years, and those who don't get odd years. Everyone gets to hunt the general seeasons.

You just reduced everyone's odds. Now there are half as may tags you can draw in your lifetime.This just doubles your odds from 1% every year to 2% every other year. This is just another smoke and mirrors idea to get people to believe they have better odds but they don't. Just like points. like has been posted above tom many hunters and not enough elk.

 

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