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Author Topic: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?  (Read 2104 times)

Offline Tbar

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2017, 10:58:01 AM »
I know people who will not buy the special raffle anymore.
Besides a very small % most of the raffles are won by the person who "buys the raffle" so to speak.
I would bet that the state would make more money if they had a reasonable cap . Maybe limit it to 30 for example. I bet more people would participate that way. Rather than the guy with the most money waiting to the last day to see how many he has to buy to put the odds in his favor because there is no cap.
The system is not designed for equity.  Any number is arbitrary, 30 its not fair to the guy who can only afford 5. They end goal is to create a funding mechanism for species specific conservation, wether that be a raffle system with a cap or a defacto auction. Differentiating between the two or finding the tipping point would require a bunch of statistical analysis along with a fair amount of trial and error I'm sure.  I like the idea of beating the odds and "having a chance " in the raffles.

Offline JKEEN33

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2017, 11:13:31 AM »
Your arguments are the same I use for instructor, master hunter etc.. draws. One pool of tags that all compete in is my preference. If you want to buy a hunt, go hunt the farms.

It's different because you don't have to be rich to become a MH or Hunter Ed instructor. Anyone can. You just have to have the commitment to do so and do the work required. We don't have enough instructors for students now. If you eliminate the incentive permits for Hunter Education, we'll lose some of them and that means a drop in new hunter participation overall - bad thing. The same goes for the MH program and volunteerism. Right now, MHs contribute a minimum of 16,000 hours per year of volunteer conservation work, and the actual figure is much higher than the minimum. If you eliminate those incentives, we would lose some - bad thing. How would you replace those volunteer hours? I personally don't care about the tags and haven't been chosen for either of the two damage hunts that I've drawn - there are no guarantees. I would do the program without them. But the hours are contributing to our abundant wildlife and it costs the state little or nothing to get those hours. This should be a different topic. It has nothing to do with how rich you are.

Using this argument we could say all tags should be sold to the highest bidder and then we can pay volunteers with cash. payment is exactly what these additional opportunities are. You want to penalize certain individuals that contribute cash -vs- time?

It's a different topic. Go ahead and start one. This topic is about auction/Governor's tags.

Not really, my point is any group that pulls tags from the general pool is reducing opportunity from the average hunter.  But we can see how the don't touch " my groups tags" works. Absolutely would love to see it go with all other one off drawings.

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2017, 11:15:23 AM »
I am squarely in the "FOR" category with these auctions and raffles.  I just don't see the down side to a few high dollar opportunities for folks who are willing to pay the price.  I know it ruffles some people's feather to think a rich guy is going to get over on them, but let's be honest.  That guy brings some things to the conservation discussion that you and I don't.  The crowd that the CEO type associates with is not typically a pro hunting crowd, but they are without question a politically active group.  You and I will never be able to express an opinion to them simply because we don't have the access.  The wealthy hunter who buys that ticket can, and often does profess his support for hunting in those high money crowds.  That goes a long way.   The second tangible that comes from these hunts is the ability to keep access where it is easily taken from working hunters.  The same money that buys a rich guy access to trophy game also keeps that access available to everyone else.

Point 1: Surely you're not implying that because a politically active rich guy doesn't get to buy a tag, he's going to turn his back on hunting and conservation???? Regardless of his money, even if he did turn his back on hunting and conservation, he's not going to be able to hurt hunting because he's mad at losing his personal tag. I don't care how politically connected he is, he's not going to get anti-hunting laws passed because he doesn't get his way. His representative might support him but no one else's would.
Point 2: That same money could be raised with a lottery for those choice Governor's tags. But instead, everyone gets a chance. The access you speak of isn't currently available to everyone.

Look, I base my opinion on the North American Model. If someone gets to buy better hunting opportunities than I because he's rich and I'm not, that's in direct opposition to the model and that the wildlife belongs to everyone.

I am not implying anything.  I simply state that a person with the resources to purchase a 75K tag can do it here or anywhere he chooses.  I prefer he spend his money here and that he uses the experience that tag brought him to help shape and influence his political and conservation activities here. If you have some insight into how these hunters either do or don't promote hunting in Washington then please share it with us. 

Secondly if he chooses to speak kindly of his Washington hunting experience with his influential circle of friends and politicians then by all means, do so.  I would rather see some Seattle money going to Washington Elk conservation than I would African big game hunting or as is more often the case going directly against WA. hunters.

I understand your point of view, I don't agree with it but I understand it.  I think you and I often come down on opposite sides of arguments concerning access and pay to play.  My prospective is the North American game model is pretty much a joke.  Wild game belongs to the state and the ownership remains at that level, only passed to the hunter by license.  Essentially the notion that "we" own the game is a comforting philosophy, but not a true conservation measure or legal reality.   

   



I would like to ask you..... How did TR's fiasco HELP the image of hunting?


However one wants to interpret it, animals are "public" property, selling them to the select few is, and will always be, questionable.

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2017, 11:40:15 AM »
Your arguments are the same I use for instructor, master hunter etc.. draws. One pool of tags that all compete in is my preference. If you want to buy a hunt, go hunt the farms.

It's different because you don't have to be rich to become a MH or Hunter Ed instructor. Anyone can. You just have to have the commitment to do so and do the work required. We don't have enough instructors for students now. If you eliminate the incentive permits for Hunter Education, we'll lose some of them and that means a drop in new hunter participation overall - bad thing. The same goes for the MH program and volunteerism. Right now, MHs contribute a minimum of 16,000 hours per year of volunteer conservation work, and the actual figure is much higher than the minimum. If you eliminate those incentives, we would lose some - bad thing. How would you replace those volunteer hours? I personally don't care about the tags and haven't been chosen for either of the two damage hunts that I've drawn - there are no guarantees. I would do the program without them. But the hours are contributing to our abundant wildlife and it costs the state little or nothing to get those hours. This should be a different topic. It has nothing to do with how rich you are.

Using this argument we could say all tags should be sold to the highest bidder and then we can pay volunteers with cash. payment is exactly what these additional opportunities are. You want to penalize certain individuals that contribute cash -vs- time?

It's a different topic. Go ahead and start one. This topic is about auction/Governor's tags.

Not really, my point is any group that pulls tags from the general pool is reducing opportunity from the average hunter.  But we can see how the don't touch " my groups tags" works. Absolutely would love to see it go with all other one off drawings.

Everyone can join those groups. So no, it doesn't take opportunities away from the average hunter. Just because someone chooses not to doesn't mean they don't have the same opportunities as everyone else. If you want to hunt in WA, you have to take hunter education. If someone wants to hunt in WA but doesn't want to take hunter education, they can't hunt. Same exact thing. I personally don't take part in either group for the "bennies", but if those bennies help retain and promote membership, then it's good for our wildlife and hunter base. Please, this is a different topic. I won't respond again.
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Offline DOUBLELUNG

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2017, 03:31:18 PM »
I would end the auctioning of tags.  It is doing the wrong thing for well-intentioned reasons IMHO.  If a population cannot sustain general season hunting, then the limited number of tags available should be offered in a random drawing.  WDFW should meet its needs for game management funding through the revenues from hunting licenses and special permit applications. 
As long as we have the habitat, we can argue forever about who gets to kill what and when.  No habitat = no game.

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2017, 08:46:59 PM »
So I assume everyone who supports getting rid of the auction tags also supports  getting rid of the incentive tags that are given out to a lucky few at no cost...? Same arguments can be with those tags that could also be in the general draw. If its all about increasing draw odds, eliminating those tags isn't going to help much at all . Having to pick your species and one hunt choice only, would however make a difference in my opinion.... If its about getting tags away from the hunters who have more money to spend on hunting than most of us, well thats a different argument.

Offline Wacenturion

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2017, 09:03:14 PM »
I would end the auctioning of tags.  It is doing the wrong thing for well-intentioned reasons IMHO.  If a population cannot sustain general season hunting, then the limited number of tags available should be offered in a random drawing.  WDFW should meet its needs for game management funding through the revenues from hunting licenses and special permit applications.

I would completely agree with your statement.  I would also question what real positives actually resulted from those increased revenues.  One other needed change is to make it one choice and one choice only for any permit applications as far as unit or area one puts in for.  WDFW should even change the elk eastside/westside choice.  State (not WDFW) losing revenue on that policy. :twocents:

 
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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2017, 06:27:10 AM »
So I assume everyone who supports getting rid of the auction tags also supports  getting rid of the incentive tags that are given out to a lucky few at no cost...? Same arguments can be with those tags that could also be in the general draw. If its all about increasing draw odds, eliminating those tags isn't going to help much at all . Having to pick your species and one hunt choice only, would however make a difference in my opinion.... If its about getting tags away from the hunters who have more money to spend on hunting than most of us, well thats a different argument.

Read above. Already had that discussion. Start a new thread. Thanks.
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Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2017, 09:05:51 AM »
So I assume everyone who supports getting rid of the auction tags also supports  getting rid of the incentive tags that are given out to a lucky few at no cost...? Same arguments can be with those tags that could also be in the general draw. If its all about increasing draw odds, eliminating those tags isn't going to help much at all . Having to pick your species and one hunt choice only, would however make a difference in my opinion.... If its about getting tags away from the hunters who have more money to spend on hunting than most of us, well thats a different argument.
I have no problem with the incentive tags...that is an example of a public resource being available to all who report harvest on time.  We've all got a shot at those tags.  The opposition to auction tags has nothing to do with improving drawing odds; nor does it have anything to do with taking tags away from rich people - it's about not allowing state agencies (e.g., WDFW) to deviate from the NAMWC simply to increase their budgets...even if the money is used for worthy efforts.  :twocents:
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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2017, 09:22:12 AM »
So I assume everyone who supports getting rid of the auction tags also supports  getting rid of the incentive tags that are given out to a lucky few at no cost...? Same arguments can be with those tags that could also be in the general draw. If its all about increasing draw odds, eliminating those tags isn't going to help much at all . Having to pick your species and one hunt choice only, would however make a difference in my opinion.... If its about getting tags away from the hunters who have more money to spend on hunting than most of us, well thats a different argument.
I have no problem with the incentive tags...that is an example of a public resource being available to all who report harvest on time.  We've all got a shot at those tags.  The opposition to auction tags has nothing to do with improving drawing odds; nor does it have anything to do with taking tags away from rich people - it's about not allowing state agencies (e.g., WDFW) to deviate from the NAMWC simply to increase their budgets...even if the money is used for worthy efforts.  :twocents:
What if the worthy efforts benefit overall opportunities to all? I question how far this state has taken that ideology and also wonder if the deviation is worth it.

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2017, 09:36:26 AM »
So I assume everyone who supports getting rid of the auction tags also supports  getting rid of the incentive tags that are given out to a lucky few at no cost...? Same arguments can be with those tags that could also be in the general draw. If its all about increasing draw odds, eliminating those tags isn't going to help much at all . Having to pick your species and one hunt choice only, would however make a difference in my opinion.... If its about getting tags away from the hunters who have more money to spend on hunting than most of us, well thats a different argument.
I have no problem with the incentive tags...that is an example of a public resource being available to all who report harvest on time.  We've all got a shot at those tags.  The opposition to auction tags has nothing to do with improving drawing odds; nor does it have anything to do with taking tags away from rich people - it's about not allowing state agencies (e.g., WDFW) to deviate from the NAMWC simply to increase their budgets...even if the money is used for worthy efforts.  :twocents:
What if the worthy efforts benefit overall opportunities to all? I question how far this state has taken that ideology and also wonder if the deviation is worth it.

I think touting benefits of programs supported by auction tag money is a false/misleading narrative...

As far as how the money is used from these raffles/auctions...no doubt they at least try to put it to good use.  And if you asked someone at WDFW they would probably mention various habitat improvements, access increase...all things that benefit the average sportsmen.  This at minimum implies if the auctions/raffles go away, we would lose habitat/access etc.  The reality is, if the agency (which has an annual budget in the hundreds of millions per year) suggests we are 400 or 500k per year from losing really important actions/programs that benefit sportsmen...they are out of their minds. Cut a few travel days per year from the staff and other things that amount to budget dust and there is your 400 or 500k.
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Offline Jpmiller

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2017, 09:40:35 AM »
I don't see the auction raffle tags being different than master hunter or other such special priveledge tags. Anyone can purchase an auction tag just like anyone can buy raffle tags just like anyone can buy an over the counter tag. It may not be economically feasible for you, me or most of the population of the state but it is open to us to participate.

I didn't get placed in a job where my salary and ability to further myself was predetermined​ by an outside entity  completely outside of my control so if I cannot afford the auction tag that's on me.

I don't think we need to change the system because of bad press from things like the Bullwinkle case either. I sat in a traffic backup this morning on my way to work but I bet the bad press from that doesn't cause them to shut down the freeways for everyone. People poach animals every year with OTC tags, hope they don't shut those down too so hunters stop getting bad press.

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2017, 09:55:29 AM »
They are different. Anyone can be a Master Hunter or a Hunter Ed instructor, regardless of income. Few can afford to pay $50K or more for a tag. See the difference? Start another thread if you don't like incentive tags. Why is it so hard to understand that?
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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2017, 10:17:46 AM »
Here's the link for whether or not we should eliminate incentive tags. http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,211534.msg2815661/topicseen.html#msg2815661
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Offline Jpmiller

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2017, 10:31:49 AM »
They are different. Anyone can be a Master Hunter or a Hunter Ed instructor, regardless of income. Few can afford to pay $50K or more for a tag. See the difference? Start another thread if you don't like incentive tags. Why is it so hard to understand that?

Income and income potential is determined by the individual just the same as the ability to become a master hunter is. Most the hunters I know (myself included) don't the education, don't have the work ethic, made poor choices when we were younger, or simply won't take the risks required for a higher income. The state doesn't deem people ineligible for the auction or raffle tags we are making ourselves ineligible.

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2017, 10:36:53 AM »
Please comment on the other thread. This thread is only about the auction tags.
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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2017, 10:43:13 AM »
I would end the auctioning of tags.  It is doing the wrong thing for well-intentioned reasons IMHO.  If a population cannot sustain general season hunting, then the limited number of tags available should be offered in a random drawing.  WDFW should meet its needs for game management funding through the revenues from hunting licenses and special permit applications.

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Offline Wacenturion

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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2017, 01:42:15 PM »
One thing that drives my opinion on ending these auction tags - they are so valuable because of the very tight restrictions placed on all the average sportsmen.  So few branch bull tags are given out in many areas that it creates a very good trophy opportunity.  Imagine if we decided to open up many of these eastside units to any bull, and long seasons...what would that eastside elk tag go for then? Because the wildlife is owned by the people of the state, if the people decide to limit/restrict their harvest - they should have an equal shot at getting ANY of the limited opportunities which might exist.  This would, in my view, preclude selling tags to the highest bidder. 

As far as how the money is used from these raffles/auctions...no doubt they at least try to put it to good use.  And if you asked someone at WDFW they would probably mention various habitat improvements, access increase...all things that benefit the average sportsmen.  This at minimum implies if the auctions/raffles go away, we would lose habitat/access etc. The reality is, if the agency (which has an annual budget in the hundreds of millions per year) suggests we are 400 or 500k per year from losing really important actions/programs that benefit sportsmen...they are out of their minds. Cut a few travel days per year from the staff and other things that amount to budget dust and there is your 400 or 500k.

Habitat development and public access of any real significance doesn't exist at WDFW.  So I can tell you that's not the result of these monies being spent.  During the 90's there was a major thrust regarding habitat and species enhancement as well as hunter access.  There were several smaller program efforts, no less important, such as the turkey progam that provides opportunity today. 

That program was without a doubt the most active on the ground wildlife program in the nation bar none.  However reorganization within WDFW killed that effort as it tended to expose "go to meeting" biologists who always had excuses for why things could not be done.

I'll provide an example of what is not now being done.  In 1992 the program I mentioned above rolled into Omak and spent the week with staff and equipment to re-establih critical sharptailed grouse habitat at the Scotch Creek Wildlife Area.  The grouse were almost non existent at that point and there was very little if any suitable habitat left in the respective reparian zone.

At the end of the week the planting were finished and nature took over.  In the years following the water birch that the grouse roost in and associated shrub plantings flourished.  Eventually additional sharptails were released to supplement the native birds, giving them a genetic boost in my opinion.  Fast forward 25 years and look at the photo below which only shows a relatively small portion of what now exists habitat wise.  Notice those dark objects in the water birch trees?  We now have a healty sharptail population as well as every other species that uses the area.  Time is critical to replace and grow habitat that has been lost.  Somehow that has always equated with too much work and not enough instant gradification for many at WDFW over the years.  Sad, but true. 


So in summary, if WDFW taunts wonderful habitat and access enhancements from those dollars, beware, it's most likely BS.  My guess is a good portion is spread across administration lines for staff salaries and expenses related to specific species.     
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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2017, 04:05:16 PM »
So I assume everyone who supports getting rid of the auction tags also supports  getting rid of the incentive tags that are given out to a lucky few at no cost...? Same arguments can be with those tags that could also be in the general draw. If its all about increasing draw odds, eliminating those tags isn't going to help much at all . Having to pick your species and one hunt choice only, would however make a difference in my opinion.... If its about getting tags away from the hunters who have more money to spend on hunting than most of us, well thats a different argument.
I have no problem with the incentive tags...that is an example of a public resource being available to all who report harvest on time.  We've all got a shot at those tags.  The opposition to auction tags has nothing to do with improving drawing odds; nor does it have anything to do with taking tags away from rich people - it's about not allowing state agencies (e.g., WDFW) to deviate from the NAMWC simply to increase their budgets...even if the money is used for worthy efforts.  :twocents:
What if the worthy efforts benefit overall opportunities to all? I question how far this state has taken that ideology and also wonder if the deviation is worth it.

Maybe you can show us the overall benefits that have accrued to the average hunter since the auction tags went into effect? You know, like how the hunter success rate has gone up? How there is more hunting access available. How seasons are getting longer.
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Re: Is IT Time To Eliminate OIL Tag Auctions?
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2017, 05:20:24 PM »
So I assume everyone who supports getting rid of the auction tags also supports  getting rid of the incentive tags that are given out to a lucky few at no cost...? Same arguments can be with those tags that could also be in the general draw. If its all about increasing draw odds, eliminating those tags isn't going to help much at all . Having to pick your species and one hunt choice only, would however make a difference in my opinion.... If its about getting tags away from the hunters who have more money to spend on hunting than most of us, well thats a different argument.
I have no problem with the incentive tags...that is an example of a public resource being available to all who report harvest on time.  We've all got a shot at those tags.  The opposition to auction tags has nothing to do with improving drawing odds; nor does it have anything to do with taking tags away from rich people - it's about not allowing state agencies (e.g., WDFW) to deviate from the NAMWC simply to increase their budgets...even if the money is used for worthy efforts.  :twocents:
What if the worthy efforts benefit overall opportunities to all? I question how far this state has taken that ideology and also wonder if the deviation is worth it.

Maybe you can show us the overall benefits that have accrued to the average hunter since the auction tags went into effect? You know, like how the hunter success rate has gone up? How there is more hunting access available. How seasons are getting longer.
I can't, and without a foia request I wouldn't even be able to cite specifics. I think this state is one of the most difficult states to manage (Not saying they have done a good job) especially with the pie shrinking continuously.  Add in lack of predator management  (blame the voters) and major changes in land management and the equation gets tougher.  Maybe some of the NGO's that are the facilitators and lobby for these tags can weigh in with some facts.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 05:28:15 PM by Tbar »

 

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