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Author Topic: Let's talk muzzle velocity....  (Read 808 times)

Online jrebel

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Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« on: April 16, 2017, 07:11:12 PM »
So....I have been handloading for quite some time now and have never really paid that close attention to my muzzle volocity.  I was always hand loading for hunting purposes and based my final load off of accuracy. 

Well, a couple weeks ago, I finally broke down and bought a Magnetospeed V3 to see what my muzzle velocities are. 

This was the data with a 7 shots out of my .270 which, if I do my job, will shoot well under an inch groups. 

Shot #1  2681
Shot #2  2733
Shot #3  2694
Shot #4  2719
Shot #5  2712
Shot #6  2750
Shot #7  2751

SD 26.7
Max Spread 70 fps
Average 2720

My question is....is this acceptable or can I tighten it up a little?  What reccomendations would a person have to tighten this up without any major changes as the accuracy is there. 


My .308 is quite a bit better

Shot #1  2778
Shot #2  2807
Shot #3  2805
Shot #4  2772
Shot #5  2804
Shot #6  2776
Shot #7  2789

SD  15.1
Max Spread 35
Average 2790

Offline Duckslayer89

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2017, 07:17:02 PM »
So....I have been handloading for quite some time now and have never really paid that close attention to my muzzle volocity.  I was always hand loading for hunting purposes and based my final load off of accuracy. 

Well, a couple weeks ago, I finally broke down and bought a Magnetospeed V3 to see what my muzzle velocities are. 

This was the data with a 7 shots out of my .270 which, if I do my job, will shoot well under an inch groups. 

Shot #1  2681
Shot #2  2733
Shot #3  2694
Shot #4  2719
Shot #5  2712
Shot #6  2750
Shot #7  2751

SD 26.7
Max Spread 70 fps
Average 2720

My question is....is this acceptable or can I tighten it up a little?  What reccomendations would a person have to tighten this up without any major changes as the accuracy is there. 


My .308 is quite a bit better

Shot #1  2778
Shot #2  2807
Shot #3  2805
Shot #4  2772
Shot #5  2804
Shot #6  2776
Shot #7  2789

SD  15.1
Max Spread 35
Average 2790

My 308 only shot 2520 with a 165 grain bullet factory nosler trophy grade ammo 22 inch barrel

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2017, 07:25:48 PM »
You could get more precise in your loading, sometimes that can help get a closer spread.  Things like:  Weighing and sorting the bullets right out of box (for example the box of Hornady 200 gr that I have consists of bullets from 197 gr to about 202 gr).  Using all powder from one lot/container, or even trying to separate powder from within the container to get more similar grain sizes (like putting on the table near the tumbler--not on in right against; seems to work the larger grains up to the top).  Brass prep.  Etc.

So, with your shots--what was the sequence like?  Is first measured from cold/clean bore?  Approximate same temp of barrel for each shot?  A warmer cartridge gives higher pressure/velocity than a cooler identical one.

Offline Jason

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2017, 07:32:40 PM »
What are you using for a crimp die? I tightened up my velocity spread with the Lee factory crimp die.

Online jrebel

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2017, 07:43:04 PM »
So....I have been handloading for quite some time now and have never really paid that close attention to my muzzle volocity.  I was always hand loading for hunting purposes and based my final load off of accuracy. 

Well, a couple weeks ago, I finally broke down and bought a Magnetospeed V3 to see what my muzzle velocities are. 

This was the data with a 7 shots out of my .270 which, if I do my job, will shoot well under an inch groups. 

Shot #1  2681
Shot #2  2733
Shot #3  2694
Shot #4  2719
Shot #5  2712
Shot #6  2750
Shot #7  2751

SD 26.7
Max Spread 70 fps
Average 2720

My question is....is this acceptable or can I tighten it up a little?  What reccomendations would a person have to tighten this up without any major changes as the accuracy is there. 


My .308 is quite a bit better

Shot #1  2778
Shot #2  2807
Shot #3  2805
Shot #4  2772
Shot #5  2804
Shot #6  2776
Shot #7  2789

SD  15.1
Max Spread 35
Average 2790

My 308 only shot 2520 with a 165 grain bullet factory nosler trophy grade ammo 22 inch barrel

This is a Kimber Mountain Ascent and it hated 165/168 grain bullets but loved the 150 grain accubonds.  It is quite the shooter....though I have to 100% due my job as it is such a light rifle.  If I mess up just a little it really is magnified in the results. 

Online jrebel

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2017, 07:45:15 PM »
What are you using for a crimp die? I tightened up my velocity spread with the Lee factory crimp die.

I have never crimped my rifle bullets....maybe I should??  Does it make that big a difference? 

Online jrebel

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2017, 07:48:34 PM »
You could get more precise in your loading, sometimes that can help get a closer spread.  Things like:  Weighing and sorting the bullets right out of box (for example the box of Hornady 200 gr that I have consists of bullets from 197 gr to about 202 gr).  Using all powder from one lot/container, or even trying to separate powder from within the container to get more similar grain sizes (like putting on the table near the tumbler--not on in right against; seems to work the larger grains up to the top).  Brass prep.  Etc.

So, with your shots--what was the sequence like?  Is first measured from cold/clean bore?  Approximate same temp of barrel for each shot?  A warmer cartridge gives higher pressure/velocity than a cooler identical one.

Shto sequence with the .270 was 3 shot (10 seconds between shots)....Waited for barrel to cool and then shot 4 with 10 seoconds between.  Was a little curious how the heated up barrel would react and I agree....appears the warmer barrel produced the highest volocities. 

The .308 is a super light barrel and heats up fast.  Did the same shot sequence to see if I could replicate the results and it didn't appear to effect it as much even though the barrel was heated up pretty good with the second shot volley. 


Offline Curly

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2017, 08:02:51 PM »
Must be 150 gr bullets in the 270.

H4831 or RL26 is probably where you want to be. :twocents:
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Online jrebel

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2017, 08:08:20 PM »
Must be 150 gr bullets in the 270.

H4831 or RL26 is probably where you want to be. :twocents:

Yes 150 grain partition being pushed by H4350.  Not sure changing powder is the way I want to go based on my accuracy.   Here is my 5 shot group (the flyer is my fault  :chuckle:)


Offline Duckslayer89

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2017, 08:29:42 PM »
So....I have been handloading for quite some time now and have never really paid that close attention to my muzzle volocity.  I was always hand loading for hunting purposes and based my final load off of accuracy. 

Well, a couple weeks ago, I finally broke down and bought a Magnetospeed V3 to see what my muzzle velocities are. 

This was the data with a 7 shots out of my .270 which, if I do my job, will shoot well under an inch groups. 

Shot #1  2681
Shot #2  2733
Shot #3  2694
Shot #4  2719
Shot #5  2712
Shot #6  2750
Shot #7  2751

SD 26.7
Max Spread 70 fps
Average 2720

My question is....is this acceptable or can I tighten it up a little?  What reccomendations would a person have to tighten this up without any major changes as the accuracy is there. 


My .308 is quite a bit better

Shot #1  2778
Shot #2  2807
Shot #3  2805
Shot #4  2772
Shot #5  2804
Shot #6  2776
Shot #7  2789

SD  15.1
Max Spread 35
Average 2790

My 308 only shot 2520 with a 165 grain bullet factory nosler trophy grade ammo 22 inch barrel

This is a Kimber Mountain Ascent and it hated 165/168 grain bullets but loved the 150 grain accubonds.  It is quite the shooter....though I have to 100% due my job as it is such a light rifle.  If I mess up just a little it really is magnified in the results.

That's what happens to me. If I mess up a tiny bit the bullet goes haywire. Frustrating. But off hand I took a shot at a steel target hit dead nuts where I was aiming. Sometimes I wonder if the bench messes me up.

Offline b23

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2017, 09:03:18 PM »
Do you keep track of how many times you reload a piece or brass?  In that seven shot string,  had every piece of brass been reloaded the same amount of times or were they a mix of different amounts of times they all had been loaded??

Online jrebel

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2017, 09:10:32 PM »
Do you keep track of how many times you reload a piece or brass?  In that seven shot string,  had every piece of brass been reloaded the same amount of times or were they a mix of different amounts of times they all had been loaded??

Haven't kept track.....All are under three times reloaded with most being second time as they were mostly factory loaded rounds to begin with. 

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2017, 08:48:08 AM »
The good news is you are on a node - but you knew that.  With that deviation in speed having little impact on accuracy you are in the sweet spot.   Watch temps. Are u sitting rounds out then putting in single just before shot?  Or are they warming in mag?  Loading to .1 grain accuracy?

Online jrebel

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2017, 09:03:21 AM »
The good news is you are on a node - but you knew that.  With that deviation in speed having little impact on accuracy you are in the sweet spot.   Watch temps. Are u sitting rounds out then putting in single just before shot?  Or are they warming in mag?  Loading to .1 grain accuracy?

I was placing 3 rounds in the mag.  Is it better to have them out or in?  I do load to +/- .1 grain, measuring every load with a lyman electric scale. 

I am going back up today and will shoot one round, let cool for 3-5 minutes, shoot another, etc....  Little more time between shots.  I was also going to buy a crimp die before I go back today.  I want to crip 5 rounds and see what happens. 

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2017, 11:45:47 AM »
Ive wondered myself if rounds in mag were warming up but have never checked.  Just going from 50 to 75 degrees might explain some if they actually warm up?

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2017, 12:45:17 PM »
I don't know if being in the mag warms them up that much.  When you wait between shots to you leave the bolt open after the shot, then chamber right before the next shot or chamber immediately and then wait before the next shot?

Offline Blacklab

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2017, 07:53:48 PM »
1/2 inch moa @ hundred yards is great. If your thinking of trying longer ranges say 500 +. Then you need to bring your sd down as close to 10 or lower consistently. Case prep and bullet seating is of great importance. Measure your chamber length. Some rifles like long jumps some like short. You want your ogive as close to the lans without touching.  :twocents:  ;)
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Offline high country

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2017, 08:49:49 PM »
I'd aneal the necks and play with depth.  The spread is the killer if you shoot much beyond 5ish hundred.

Reloder 26 will take you over the 3 grand mark.....it did for me. I was shoving 130's at 2900 and now 150 LRAB @3k on the nose with single digit spreads.

Offline bobcat

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2017, 09:04:38 PM »
I'm getting 3100 feet per second with 140 grain Bergers and RL26. My previous load with H4831 and the same bullet was 2,850 fps. Probably will never use anything but RL26 for my 270 Win.

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2017, 10:43:04 PM »
The good news is you are on a node - but you knew that.  With that deviation in speed having little impact on accuracy you are in the sweet spot.   Watch temps. Are u sitting rounds out then putting in single just before shot?  Or are they warming in mag?  Loading to .1 grain accuracy?

I was placing 3 rounds in the mag.  Is it better to have them out or in?  I do load to +/- .1 grain, measuring every load with a lyman electric scale. 

I am going back up today and will shoot one round, let cool for 3-5 minutes, shoot another, etc....  Little more time between shots.  I was also going to buy a crimp die before I go back today.  I want to crip 5 rounds and see what happens. 

I've never crimped bullets either, I'm wondering if you found crimping to be more accurate?
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Offline high country

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2017, 02:08:13 AM »
The good news is you are on a node - but you knew that.  With that deviation in speed having little impact on accuracy you are in the sweet spot.   Watch temps. Are u sitting rounds out then putting in single just before shot?  Or are they warming in mag?  Loading to .1 grain accuracy?

I was placing 3 rounds in the mag.  Is it better to have them out or in?  I do load to +/- .1 grain, measuring every load with a lyman electric scale. 

I am going back up today and will shoot one round, let cool for 3-5 minutes, shoot another, etc....  Little more time between shots.  I was also going to buy a crimp die before I go back today.  I want to crip 5 rounds and see what happens. 

I've never crimped bullets either, I'm wondering if you found crimping to be more accurate?
The good news is you are on a node - but you knew that.  With that deviation in speed having little impact on accuracy you are in the sweet spot.   Watch temps. Are u sitting rounds out then putting in single just before shot?  Or are they warming in mag?  Loading to .1 grain accuracy?

I was placing 3 rounds in the mag.  Is it better to have them out or in?  I do load to +/- .1 grain, measuring every load with a lyman electric scale. 

I am going back up today and will shoot one round, let cool for 3-5 minutes, shoot another, etc....  Little more time between shots.  I was also going to buy a crimp die before I go back today.  I want to crip 5 rounds and see what happens. 

I've never crimped bullets either, I'm wondering if you found crimping to be more accurate?

I struggled to get a known good shooting rifle to shoot a nosler lrab. After speaking with nosler tech it's a pretty common problem for that bullet with slow powders to have inconsistent dwell time in the throat.....Sometimes it glides through, sometimes it hangs for a moment and then takes off again after the case pressure builds.

Their advice was either find ways to increase the time between ignition and the bullet contacting the leade......more depth, crimp, hotter primers or faster powders.

I found that I can get that bullet to shoot well by using a faster powder. .....but I also took a 3" load down to .6" by seating deep and crimping.

While 99% of the time it's unnecessary to crimp a rifle load, there are times that it helps tremendously.

Offline wsmnut

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2017, 06:03:21 AM »
If you are going to start crimping I'd back off the powder charge and work up again.
I don't really see the necessity for it myself.
Barrel temp is likely what is affecting your speed.  It's hard to be patient when you are out at the range.  Bring two rifles and alternate shooting them.  Keeps one cooling and you shooting!
I have two .270's.  One likes H4831, the other likes H4350.  Your rifle clearly likes what you are doing.  And H4350 is one of Hodgdon's extreme line which is noted to be less temperature sensitive.
     Try your speed test again by going out to the range with an already fouled barrel.
You might find things settle down a bit.

Good Luck!
Wsmnut


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Offline rudysts

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 07:32:17 AM »
There are two methods that I do to bring down extreme velocity spreads.

1 Control of your neck tension, this can be done with a full length bushing die or neck bushing die.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/neck-tension-not-just-bushing-size/

2 Testing different primers. I have found in my non magnum rifles that CCI BR2 or the 200s gave me best results along with Federal gold medal match 210s with the magnums CCI 250

By using this method I have been able to reduce my ES down in to the low 20s and in to the teens and some times single digits.
I think the more important number is your SD (standard deviation) this should be single digit. but if you only shoot short range high ES won't matter they will still shoot tight but it will show up at longer ranges 300 plus yards.

I never saw the need to crimp a bullet on a bolt rifle, much better to use a bushing die http://www.whiddengunworks.com/standard-reloading-dies/  I think these are the best dies out there they also come with a shoulder bump gauge.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:38:42 AM by rudysts »

Offline high country

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 08:02:06 AM »
The lrab/slow powder combination is one that requires some nontraditional techniques. If you don't believe me, call nosler tech support and ask for yourself.

Online jrebel

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Re: Let's talk muzzle velocity....
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 08:05:30 AM »
Kind of interesting changes from my last trip.  I loaded a few more rounds with my newly cleaned trimmed brass (I changed cleaning methods from media tumbling to stainless steel), as well I let the barrel cool a little more between shots and my s/d went from mid 20's to 15.  I currently have more loaded with different primers....Some magnum and others just different brands.....I will see if I get these numbers even tighter.  Next I will work with seating depth though I think I have already found that sweet spot.  Updates to follow. 

 

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